The Unmaking Of Gujrat

wow. wonder if mma is going to be stealing a play from the gujrat playbook. even after all the histrionics and isi support, they only won about 50% of the seats in sarhad assembly.

Reply Arjun_M #91

``Whats good for gujrat isnt good for maharashtra or for other parts of the country....people in bangalore would rather riot over a film star being kidnapped..``

Or found dead. (25 buses burned, right?)

``To get the hindus to riot would require the vhp etc to fake some sort of an attack on hindus or latch on to something like godhra.``

Indeed.

``If you go over the communal riots of the past years, most of the riots were localized and trigerred in that locality by specific indidents..godhra, bombay etc. etc. Even when gujrat was burning, bombay was peaceful. When bombay was bruning in 92, gujrat was peaceful.``

Bombay was peaceful because the Govt made thousands of preventative arrests of Shiv Sena and Bajrang Dal activists. In fact those parts of Gujarat where such arrests were made (Kutch) also saw much less violence. Also, there WAS some communal violence in Maharashtra (North of Bombay) during that time.

IMO the conditions for communal riots exist in many parts of India - but large scale communal violence does not take place without the Govt of the day (and place) turning a blind eye to it.

If you recall, Godhra is located quite close to the MP border with Gujarat, and there were fairly strenuous attempts to spread the violence to MP - attempts which Digvijay Singh (Congress) stamped on hard (and successfully). That`s why there is such unease with the BJP`s role in the whole thing - it couldn`t have happened the way it did without them.

(Congress has a similar story to answer for re the anti-Sikh riots in Delhi.)

The news, btw, is that the BJP won big in Gujarat - something like 125 to 50 seats. Spoke to some relatives from Gujarat before then, and they all predicted a BJP win - but I suppose we`re all surprised at the extent of their victory.

Anyway - I hope that you`re right, but I think that the BJP`s win is going to encourage those parts of the Sangh Parivar which deal in political violence. Thing is, if they get RESULTS, their pov is hard to counter within the Parivar without saying that it is their ideas and assumptions which are wrong - and I doubt that other parts of the Parivar are going to do that.

A tangent: I was in Bombay two weeks ago when a bomb went off in a bus in Ghatkopar, killing two people and injuring many. The Bombay riots were particularly violent there - and the timing (just before the anniversary of the Babri Masjid demolition) and location of the bomb seemed to be a clear reminder of where things had gone in Bombay when Gujarat like violence had been allowed to go on unchecked. A ``response`` bomb then went off a few days later in a McDonald`s (!) in a Muslim majority area of the city, but apart from that the anniversary passed peacefully. It`s almost as if the msg was ``we went there before, you don`t want to go there again, right? well, we don`t either, so please don`t start something...`` Frightening, but it has a sick logic.

Regards

Farzana says in her post 57: ``all the epic books (Hindu) I have read. I find them infinitely boring anyway``. She is an educated Muslim woman. So I can imagine what uneducated Muslims think about Hinduism. I don’t say Indian Muslims or other religions have to enjoy Hindu books and scriptures but respect..just some respect. But if they hate Hinduism, calling them kafirs, calling it a false religion then that Is not going to solve any problems. And of course we want to solve the problems, not aggravate them.
If Muslims hate the very religion of their ancestors..then why do they expect Hindus to respect a religion, which came from other lands, which was brought by attacking invaders? A religion, which they beleive destroyed their temples. After all scars don’t heal, we have learnt from the history. But we can try some healing ..both ways.

If deep in their hearts Muslims accept this fact that they should not hate Hinduism just because Saudi, Arabic or other Muslims hate it due to misconceptions like idol worship etc. Now, what do non-Indian Muslims know about Hinduism. Nothing. But look at our Indian President, APJ Abdul Kalam. He is a devout Muslim but he is equally well versed in Hindu Scriptures. And do you know who made the so very popular Indian TV serial “Mahabharta”? It was a Muslim Sanjay Khan. See, they know as much if not more about their ancestors than Hindus and are yet Muslims. Neither ashamed of their ancestoral religion, nor ashamed of being Muslims. They two of the so many successful Indian Muslims with respect for all. Not everyone has to study Hinduism like these people did…after all, India is a democratic and secular country. But no harm in respecting and trying to understand what it is in Hinduism besides the outward show. I have read a lot about Holy Quran. There are good things there. And yet I am a Hindu and intend to remain so.

Hindus also have to realize that if Hinduism accepts so many different forms of worship and various ways of praying…. even in one religion… then let Indian Muslims follow their religion peacefully. After all ..God is One..call him Allah ..call him Ram.

Feroz,

Well said.

Feroz (100),

``There can be no true friends without true enemies. Unless we hate what we are not, we cannot love what we are. These are the old truths we are painfully rediscovering after a century and more of sentimental cant. Those who deny them deny their family, their heritage, their culture, their birthrights, their very selves! They will not lightly be forgiven.``

Michael Dibdin quoted by Samuel Huntington in The Clash of Civilizations.

[ #57 by FarzanaVersey on December 13, 2002 11:34am PT
...
About the goof-up of Ravana’s tail instead of Hanuman’s, I had removed it before sending the print version after realising it (it wasn’t ignorance here, but the image of Modi as Ravana was occupying my mind), but while posting it at Chowk I used the unchanged hard copy. Anyway, thanks to all those who pointed it out. I consider Indian mythology as part of my cultural baggage, and I honestly do not have to tell the world about all the epics/religious books I have read. I find them all infinitely boring, anyway. ]

You must be finding Modi`s speaches also infinitely boring. Where is the need to falsify his words? Does not the journalistic integrity demand that you verify a person`s words before you attribute it to him/her?

-ew

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Seems like BJP is going to win. I would say this is bad news for India in the long run.

If it does win, will this encourage it to use the same tactics in other provinces and for the national election. After all, wherever it tried to show its moderate face, it lost. Wherever it has shown its real face, it is winning.

Was it not hate for the British colonialism & Imperialism that won us our independence & freedom---at least nominal. Was it not hate against the US in vietnam that sent the thugs packing?. Was it not the hate of hindus for muslims that fecilitated Pakistan.

Is it not the hate the Kashmiris, the Falasteenees, the Latin Americans , the chinese and the muslims have for the Imperialists & Neo-Colonists that keeps the CNN in business? Was it not hate for communism that got Russia & the world somewhat free of atheism & godlessness?

The answer is written on the wind sand and sea.

____________________________________________________________
Koreans protest US response to girls` death

SEOUL, Dec 14: Tens of thousands of people carrying candles descended on the US embassy here Saturday to protest what they considered was an inadequate US response to the deaths of two schoolgirls crushed by a US military vehicle in June.

Regular protests have rocked Seoul for a month as the anti-US sentiment sparked by a US court martial`s decision to acquit two soldiers on charges of negligent homicide in the incident has reached a near boiling point.

On Saturday, an intersection near the US embassy was awash in flickering candlelight, the tapers borne aloft by an estimated crowd of 50,000 people who booed and shouted slogans.

``Bring Mi-sun and Hyo-soon back to life,`` the crowd chanted, interspersing inspiring songs led by Yoon Do-Hyun, who composed a fight song for the recent football World Cup here.

Protesters also gathered in front of city hall, where student radicals shredded eight giant US flags. Slogans were also chanted that urged changes to the controversial Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA), which regulates relations with the 37,000 US troops stationed in South Korea and allows US authorities jurisdiction over crimes committed by American soldiers in the line of duty. Some demanded the outright withdrawal of all US troops.

Organizers said Saturday`s rallies were the biggest so far, as the anti-US sentiment that was once largely confined to radical student groups had infected mainstream South Koreans, including star athletes, movie stars and musicians.

Police mobilized 15,000 riot-trained troops clad in protective gear and carrying shields to control the largely-peaceful crowd, creating a human ring around the high-walled embassy that was also protected by bumper-to-bumper police buses.

Activists have hurled Molotov cocktails in the wave of protests leading up to Saturday`s event, and have rushed the security lines to force their way onto US military bases. But no incidents were reported Saturday.

In the southeastern city of Daegu, two students wrapped in the national flag scaled the wall of a US military base and climbed up to a giant water tank to chant their anti-US slogan, footage broadcast on television showed.

A phone call Friday with South Korean President Kim Dae-Jung in which US President George W. Bush voiced his ``deep personal sadness`` - the first time the US president made direct reference to the deaths of the girls - did little ease the growing anti-US sentiment in what had been one of Washington`s strongest Asian allies.

US Ambassador to Seoul Thomas Hubbard had earlier conveyed Bush`s regret over the tragedy. ``We cannot accept it as a direct apology to the Korean people. We demand him to apologize in the capacity of the US president instead of whispering personal sadness on the phone,`` said Chai Hee-Byeong, secretary general of an umbrella group of civic activists.

Chai said Bush sidestepped the issue of a controversial accord governing the status of the 37,000 US troops stationed in South Korea, offering only a vague promise to work closely with Seoul to prevent such accidents in the future.-AFP

Hate is good, hate is powerful, hate is glorious----only if directed against the oppressor, the imperialist, the thug, the gangster.

With a resounding chorus and in unison the entire humanity is letting us know---the Devil is the US, the Anglo, the `West`. Until & unless these thugs do not learn to visit others without uniform & guns this hatred would continue relentless & unabated, within & without.

Wise ones learn, Ignorants & Arrogants are taught.

____________________________________________________________Koreans protest US response to girls` death

SEOUL, Dec 14: Tens of thousands of people carrying candles descended on the US embassy here Saturday to protest what they considered was an inadequate US response to the deaths of two schoolgirls crushed by a US military vehicle in June.

Regular protests have rocked Seoul for a month as the anti-US sentiment sparked by a US court martial`s decision to acquit two soldiers on charges of negligent homicide in the incident has reached a near boiling point.

On Saturday, an intersection near the US embassy was awash in flickering candlelight, the tapers borne aloft by an estimated crowd of 50,000 people who booed and shouted slogans.

``Bring Mi-sun and Hyo-soon back to life,`` the crowd chanted, interspersing inspiring songs led by Yoon Do-Hyun, who composed a fight song for the recent football World Cup here.

Protesters also gathered in front of city hall, where student radicals shredded eight giant US flags. Slogans were also chanted that urged changes to the controversial Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA), which regulates relations with the 37,000 US troops stationed in South Korea and allows US authorities jurisdiction over crimes committed by American soldiers in the line of duty. Some demanded the outright withdrawal of all US troops.

Organizers said Saturday`s rallies were the biggest so far, as the anti-US sentiment that was once largely confined to radical student groups had infected mainstream South Koreans, including star athletes, movie stars and musicians.

Police mobilized 15,000 riot-trained troops clad in protective gear and carrying shields to control the largely-peaceful crowd, creating a human ring around the high-walled embassy that was also protected by bumper-to-bumper police buses.

Activists have hurled Molotov cocktails in the wave of protests leading up to Saturday`s event, and have rushed the security lines to force their way onto US military bases. But no incidents were reported Saturday.

In the southeastern city of Daegu, two students wrapped in the national flag scaled the wall of a US military base and climbed up to a giant water tank to chant their anti-US slogan, footage broadcast on television showed.

A phone call Friday with South Korean President Kim Dae-Jung in which US President George W. Bush voiced his ``deep personal sadness`` - the first time the US president made direct reference to the deaths of the girls - did little ease the growing anti-US sentiment in what had been one of Washington`s strongest Asian allies.

US Ambassador to Seoul Thomas Hubbard had earlier conveyed Bush`s regret over the tragedy. ``We cannot accept it as a direct apology to the Korean people. We demand him to apologize in the capacity of the US president instead of whispering personal sadness on the phone,`` said Chai Hee-Byeong, secretary general of an umbrella group of civic activists.

Chai said Bush sidestepped the issue of a controversial accord governing the status of the 37,000 US troops stationed in South Korea, offering only a vague promise to work closely with Seoul to prevent such accidents in the future.-AFP

feroz
I appreciate what you are saying and this is indeed the time to say it, thanks. I hope you realise, the point you are talking of didnot come in 1971 for `Pakistanis`, it came in the years before 1947. To me, Modi is an avatar of Jinnah and what Modi says to win elections is the exact counterpart of what is taught in Pakistan in school as the basis for nationhood.
----whatever

A figure given by someone on cable news(I donot know how accurate) was that before Godhra, the BJP would have won only 40-50 seats(something like the Congress has won). Just before Godhra, Modi had won a byelection by a narrow margin and before that the Congress had wiped out the BJP statewide in panchayat and municipal elections, including winning Ahmedabad city after many years. That was the result of 10 years of BJP in office.

So Godhra and its aftermath did help BJP a lot.

But, in an electorate of 30 million with sub regions where Cong HAS made gains at the expense of BJP, and there were local factors at play(like caste, earthquake relief and anti-incumbency), this was not a Hindu-Muslim hate vote alone. I donot know if the final vote shares are out, but at an intermediate stage, they were shown as BJP 49% Cong 40% and others 9%.

In the `first past the post` electoral system, its not the absolute vote share as can be seen from the above figures, but the `swing` in vote share or percentage difference(in this case 9%) is what decides whether it will be hung assembly or a 2/3rd majority or what. The reasons for the swing (if I am not mistaken 9% is considered a large swing) are what need to be understood and hate-and-Modi-vs-Waghela was no doubt THE major factor.

But emotions are ephemeral and profit only politicians while they last. In some months time, if things settle down, I wonder if business-savvy Gujju bhais whose economy has been suffering under Modi are going to wake up one day and think omigosh we already had 10 years of these folks and now we have 5 more years to go.

As for the VHP-BJP strategy of hate, spreading to other regions, I am sure its very possible in pockets,esp given what they say of the central Gujarat tribal belt which used to be Cong. dominated but saw riots and contributed many seats to the BJP sweep too. Emulating Gujarat in a whole state may be much more difficult, IMO.

post #109

``To me, Modi is an avatar of Jinnah``

Yet another asinine statement from one of the self-proclaimed ``objective`` Hindus at Chowk.

Yes, so we are a democracy. Someone at Chowk can talk about how Modi deserves to be murdered, but he will still blather if I raise the issue. Because, I have the wrong `identity`. This too is democracy. Anyway, rejoice...this is the way my India is going, and if you want to really know what the hell I mean, come back home.

As for those who are happily misquoting me and telliing me that I should at least have some respect for the Hindu religion, here is my quote from post #57: ``I consider Indian mythology as part of my cultural baggage, and I honestly do not have to tell the world about all the epics/religious books I have read. I find them all infinitely boring, anyway.`` Just in case these worthies have forgotten, there are religions other than Hinduism that do have religious texts.

Sadna, thanks...though I had only asked for the right quote :) The PM uttered those words, irrespective of everything else. However, I cannot go through all the urls you posted, though your access to the material is enviable indeed.

(Btw, just discovered the rating system here...heartening to note that ``irrelevant`` stuff gets people so hot, bothered and responsive!)

hey there,
this kind of rhetoric from coming from any side isnt healthy...
after reaqding through the article and most of the responses, I found nothing but just superficial shit throwing all across the board. Would this solve the problem, probably not, would it agravate it? definitely yes!
So what should we do...
think about the solution...
++#101 by m_souza ++
I found some hint of reasonability in some of your comments, so would like to forward this debate with my two pennies...
As a student of world religions I found out that all these religions were evolved with the evolution of the human beings from a savage animal and a slave of his instincts, into a being with higher intelectual powers. Under a wide range of circumstances through out the planet earth these humans, developed there own theories and set of beliefs to answer there questions for the things they they didnt knew or they couldnt explain. This led to development of sciences, when things could be explained using certain logics or proofs, or to the development of religion when things were beyond the logics and proofs, discovered till then, by atributing it to the unknown higher powers(GOD). In the past few centuries, when the humans broke the barriers of distance and got closer to each an exchange of ideas of all kind and theories of all type happened which led to the openiong of this scientific progress which we see today. Unfortunately, however, this development in the realms of sciences out-paced the development in the field of religion. Most of the religions we see today have actualy stopped growing and in fact started shrinking in their ideological base.
Moreeover we had the stupid idea that the science, church, individual life, state, society are separate entities and should not interfere with each other. This crippled the Human development so much that we are now afraid of thinking. the proponents of this division had went on too far in creating this gulf, but its still not that late to mend it.
The solution to ur problems is in the further growth of all these religions until the peak of their evolution, by merging in to each other yet keeping their own identity. Aftrerall, they all preach the same idea of a higher being, and of human dignity and peaceful co-existance in their essence, using different names and themes.
We need forums to spread the word and lead to a reunification of all these compartments of human life into one, so we can achieve the eternal bliss for our species.
Time to go will appear later, and would love to see some response to my comments.

Here is the latest from Rediff.com on the future of things to come.
Apologists for indian secularism......... please don`t bother.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
`Hindu Rashtra` in two years: Togadia
[The Bharatiya Janata Party`s victory in Gujarat was a turning point in Indian history and the experiment of the `Hindutva lab` will be repeated in Delhi, Vishwa Hindu Parishad leader Pravin Togadia said on Sunday.

Togadia told a press conference in Jaipur: ``The Hindutva lab has started functioning... the BJP has won all the three seats where by-elections were held in Rajasthan. The final result will come by the next assembly election in the state.

``When madrassas in various parts of the country can train jihadis, why can`t the VHP set up its Hindutva lab?

``The minorities should decide how they want to live in India... The VHP will not decide their future... it is a question of co-existence in the Hindu Rashtra.

``A Hindu Rashtra can be expected in the next two years... we will change India`s history and Pakistan`s geography by then,`` he added.]

Well, folks the Pakistanization of Gujarat is complete today. Jinnah`s heir in India is none other that Narendra Modi. For one, Islam was in danger; for the other hindoun ko khatra hai. Both believe and supported the two nation theory. Both called for and allowed others to implement a murder-filled direct action day.

So the fight is on. Today the hindus have their own Bhidranwala in the form of Togadia and Jinnah in the form of Narendra Modi. It will be our duty to resist these people with the same strength that we resisted their ``progenitors``. Jai Hind ! Satyamev Jayate !