Musings Of A Suspected Terrorist

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The plan is that in four years, every visitor to the United States from every country will be registered and tracked. We are just at the top of the list.

As far as feeling like a criminal, my mother is a teacher in Houston, she has to go through a metal detector when she goes to work every day.. it doesn`t mean she is a criminal, it is for her protection as much as for other peoples. You are the one making yourself feel like a criminal.. stop taking it personally. Do you feel you are being treated like a criminal when you apply for a job and they ask for a drug test/criminal background check/credit check. When you use a credit card and they ask to see ID? The new INS regulations are not any different than any office building deciding that from now all visitors will have to sign in, which I`m sure you have experienced.

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Jinnah and secularism



According to a news report, Federal Minister Mahmood Ali have criticized those who say that Quaid-i-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah was a secularist, and added that ``he (the Quaid) never spoke about secularism and was a true Muslim``.

I am of the view that a Muslim, too, can be a secularist. Jinnah was a secularist, as evidenced by one of his pre-partition statements that it (Pakistan) was not to be ``a theocracy to be ruled by priests with a divine mission``.

He never envisioned that Pakistan would become the kind of retrograde theocratic state that Ziaul Haq turned it into.

Thus, all oppressive laws must be repealed in accordance with Jinnah`s vision of a liberal, secular and democratic state.

SHAMIM MIRZA

New York, USA


At last I am happy to find that the ministers are taking up the canard of the educated pakistanis that jinnah envisaged a secular pakistan. It is time that the educated pakistanis accepted the evolution of pakistan in line with the great ideology of TNT, which is essentially a political operationalisation of the notion of kafir.

The world is waiting for the true pure islamic republic of pakistan to emerge, devoid of any cultural influences of the hindus, true to the book, comlete with honour killings, blasophemy laws, and limb choppings.

actually i happened to be on the same flight and no one was nasty to me. maybe you shouldnt make an issue out of a non issue.

And if America really sucks, start refusing the mega bucks you get for bonuses from that bank of yours....

in any case... its a good thing you put your thoughts to paper, even if you needlessly decided to remain anonymous, Faisal.....

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Stuka

``Very true..add Punjab, add the Bombay bomb blasts, add attacks on the Red Fort and the Parliament in Delhi. True enough dude, there is more to this hate than what Pakistan does in Kashmir``

No person/country escapes the law of Karma. Did you read that the people involved in the recent church bombings in Pakistan are suspected to be Jaish-e-Muhammad terrorists.

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stuka #151
``Very true..add Punjab, add the Bombay bomb blasts, add attacks on the Red Fort and the Parliament in Delhi. True enough dude, there is more to this hate than what Pakistan does in Kashmir.``

Add to that this, loose talk about the `unfinished business of Partition` to accompany all this. Pakistan has no problem with propagating this sort of irresponsible stance while shedding crocodile tears for Indian Muslims at the same time.

re: stuka

{Very true..add Punjab, add the Bombay bomb blasts, add attacks on the Red Fort and the Parliament in Delhi. True enough dude, there is more to this hate than what Pakistan does in Kashmir. }

...jewish settlers did it...

stuka # 152

ISI is pretty successful in Pakistan. No one knows that better than Pakistan`s prime ministers who can not step inside the country.

Ali:

``So that absolves the likes of you of any wrong doing while you can condemm pakistan??? ``

Did I say it absolves us of wrong doing? No, I didn`t. We are culpable as a society for allowing massacres of Muslims who are Indian citizens. There is no two ways on that.

When both the behaviour of hindus in India as well as muslims in pakistan is same what gives you a chip on you shoulder??

The chip on the shoulder comes from the fact that our government does not encourage terrorism in your country. We do not have private groups infiltrating into Pakistan under covering artillery fire of the Indian Army. We wouldn`t care if the actions of Jehadis were limited to Pakistan but if they are encouraged to spread mayhem in India, damn right it`s our problem and gives us a chip on the shoulder.

``Why exactly do you hate pakistan??? Do the you hate Biharis because many dalits are masssacared there? ``

True enough, I wouldn`t. But if Biharis start killing non Biharis, if they come to Bombay and blow up the Bombay Stock Exchange and then run back to Bihar where the government allows them open refuge, yes I would hate them.

``There is more to this hate than what pakistan does in kashmir.. ``

Very true..add Punjab, add the Bombay bomb blasts, add attacks on the Red Fort and the Parliament in Delhi. True enough dude, there is more to this hate than what Pakistan does in Kashmir.

Faisaluno:

``ever been able to figure out why indians are so susceptible to the charms of isi while in pakistam isi cannot even get more than 10 ppp mnas to vote for jamali ``

LOL!! ISI uses different methods in Pakistan and India. If they were to threaten the MNAs that their children will be killed, or acid thrown on their womenfolk, you would have all the MNAs lining up to vote for Jamali.

#143 by stuka on December 27, 2002 7:30am PT
++++
A Muslim participant made this telling remark which I have paraphrased:

The secular Hindu hates Pakistan and the communal Hindu hates Muslims. In these troubled times, the two are sometimes confused, resulting in a blurring of the lines.

++++

So that absolves the likes of you of any wrong doing while you can condemm pakistan??? When both the behaviour of hindus in India as well as muslims in pakistan is same what gives you a chip on you shoulder??

Why exactly do you hate pakistan??? Do the you hate Biharis because many dalits are masssacared there?

There is more to this hate than what pakistan does in kashmir..


+++

#141 by rsaxena on December 27, 2002 7:30am PT
re: ali

{and converted his loved(now hated) brothers to another religion}

...a certain bunch of cowards bent over for the sword and agreed to the conversion a few hundred years ago...his ancestors are not part of that group, but you`ll get a cookie if you guess whose are
++++

Dream on saxy....

your comment exposes your stand towards muslims very clearly.....

#146 by jay on December 27, 2002 7:30am PT

yadda.. yadda.. yadda.. Pakistanis.. pakistanis.. Pakistanis..

So accepted India can piss a inch further than the pakistanis..

Im not pakistani though..

shutting down srinagar was quite an achievement even for isi. never been able to figure out why indians are so susceptible to the charms of isi while in pakistam isi cannot even get more than 10 ppp mnas to vote for jamali

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/xml/comp/articleshow?artid=31901442&sType=1

Protests continue in Kashmir over Dec 13 verdict
M SALEEM PANDIT

TIMES NEWS NETWORK[ SATURDAY, DECEMBER 21, 2002 12:15:01 AM ]

SRINAGAR: Several separatist groups, including the Hurriyat Conference, held protest demonstrations in Baramulla, the home town of Parliament attack accused, even as the Valley observed a general strike for the second day on Friday.

Shops and business establishments remained shut here on the call given by various separatist groups against the court verdict in Parliament attack case.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/xml/comp/articleshow?artid=32052482&sType=1

ISI desperate to revive militancy in Punjab: Report

PTI[ SUNDAY, DECEMBER 22, 2002 12:38:07 PM ]

NEW DELHI: According to a report of the Union home ministry Pakistan`s ISI has again started toying with the idea of reviving militancy in Punjab with senior officials including President Pervez Musharraf reportedly having meetings with pro-Khalistan leaders during the birth anniversary celeberation of Baba Guru Nanak.

According to a report of the Union Home Ministry, President of US-based Nankana Sahib Foundation G S Dhillon, who was in Pakistan recently, had been asked by the ISI officials to revive Khalistani movement.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/xml/comp/default?

`Lashkar using Indian expatriates in West Asia`

TIMES NEWS NETWORK[ FRIDAY, DECEMBER 27, 2002 09:32:41 PM ]

NEW DELHI: The Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) is making use of Indian expatriates working in the Gulf countries for its destructive game-plan in India, home ministry sources said.


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/xml/comp/articleshow?artid=32590603
7 shot dead in Masaurhi village
SANJAY SINGH

TIMES NEWS NETWORK[ FRIDAY, DECEMBER 27, 2002 01:00:12 AM ]

BAIRICHAK: Seven persons, including four children and two women, were killed at Bairichak Bhadaura village, located on Masaurhi-Bhagwanganj road under the Masaurhi police station of Patna district, on Wednesday night by PWG activist-turned-dreaded gangster Sunil Kranti

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Looks like the pakis have a got a shot of pure afgan opium from the stupid article written by the famous ``intenation businessman``.

Well - here is a strong anti-dote for you guys. Read the following article posted in Nation.com !! This guy knows what he is talking about. And stop unnecessary ranting and raving and frothing at mouth.

http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/271202/editor/opi2.htm
Dr Ijaz Ahsan

``The lawlessness and chaos we are facing is not really indigenous in origin, but is a by-product of our wars in Afghanistan and Kashmir. ......

It is time for Muslims to take stock of their present plight. .....they should postpone the idea of a holy war against the whole world to convert every human being to Islam till they have set their own house in order; till they have first banished all oppression, injustice and corruption from their own lands. From the look of things, it should take a while.``

Ali 135,

It is the pakistanis who are totally concerned about the muslims in india. Today there is report that they were sending weapons to support the muslims in serbia. Time that you pakistanis accept that pakistan has acquired a central role, the country with the islamic bomb is in a leadership position to spread jihad, kenya, kashmir, chehniya, and even a great martyr of kazi went to the US and knocked off two kafirs.

I have no problems with pak direction, pl do accept it, and pl tell mushy not talk about peace with india and need for dialogue. All that I am trying to make you [akistanis aware of is the new leadership and prominant role of pakistan and you have to be proud of. Do not talk of democracy, elections, economic growth etc..it is jihad century.

re : 12-head/AAmir


{The article by ASIF IQBAL is as good as GOLD.There is nothing wrong & there is nothing small about INTERNATIONAL BUSINESSMAN.Every Coode Coolie to Professional who come out of India is selling HIMSELF in the International market ! }

...this asif iqbal rat can`t even get correct world bank data and calculate numbers...so why don`t you drink some shattap juice...

re: ali

{and converted his loved(now hated) brothers to another religion}

...a certain bunch of cowards bent over for the sword and agreed to the conversion a few hundred years ago...his ancestors are not part of that group, but you`ll get a cookie if you guess whose are...

Question.s

How Did 911 really happened..
its perplexing to find....4 Planes flying in nofly zones...two of which are highly sensitive ..for about two hours at stretch...and not detected at all....Especially the one which landed on Pentagon...
within Minutes...Al-Qaida....who is this Al-Qaida anyway....then Osama Bin landen then in undertones....Whole Muslims are terrorist...guilty unless proven innocence...enmass..
Iraq is after...so many years of war with Iran...then with so much embargo...with no money even to feed its people is still able to produce weapons of mass destructions....!! amazing...
why would iraq after so much monitoring produce them in the first place...to attack kuwait again...??
Which country actually HAS weapons of mass destruction....enough to wipe out the whole Humanity ...god knows how many times..
Which country is threating it to use.....?whenever it wants..
which country ACTUALLY has used these Weaspons of Mass destruction... Time and again..
maybe Japan...Korea ..Vietnam... Iraq...and now Afgahanistan...beside... Countries in the South America could tell...
I am not too sure of the role of USA is African Continent...??

.....Answer I am confused and Lost...!!

Ali87

A few weeks back there was a symposium of intellectuals in Mussoorie, a hill station in North India. The discussions included sociao-economic changes, foreign policy, acadamics etc.

A Muslim participant made this telling remark which I have paraphrased:

The secular Hindu hates Pakistan and the communal Hindu hates Muslims. In these troubled times, the two are sometimes confused, resulting in a blurring of the lines.

There is no justification in killing Indin Muslims because Pakistanis are killing our people. It is very stupid to do that because Indians then shoot themselves in the foot. But, for the common masses, the threat of Pakistan works for them to consolidate as Hindus. I was in India when the Gujarat elections took place. In every speech, every speech..Modi would talk about Miyan Musharraf and the ``celebrations in Pakistan`` if the BJP lost. In every speech it was hammered home that the Muslims are different from Hindus (Basis of TNT) and if the Muslims support one Party then the Hindus should support the other. The results are known.

Now, as far as Pakistanis are concerned, honestly you guys should put your money where your mouth is or you should shut up. I have more respect for the Jewish state of Israel than I do for the Islamic Republic of Pakistan because the former gives immediate shelter to any Jew who wishes to come to Israel and the latter has selectyive concern for Muslims with real estate (Kashmiris). If you guys have real concern for Indian Muslims, provide them sanctuary, but if you cannot provide that, well leave them be. Your leader left them in enough of a mess here already, on the mercy of Hindu communalists who he knew would take revenge on them while he flew in air conditioned comfort to Pakistan.

Let us be very straightforward in this...Indian Muslims are Indians. There is no two ways about it. Yes, they are discriminated against, yes their socio-economic conditions are worse than that of others..all that is tru. But the solution has to come from within India. There is no choice about it. There cannot be another partition because, again thanks to J the Great, the Muslims do not consitute a majority in any region outside the Kashmir Valley. Ofcourse, if you guys had your way, then the valley would o to Pakistan as well, and then what..?? Open season on Muslims while the Pakis again sit on the sidelines and cry crocodile tears?

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#24 by ayeshakhan on December 21, 2002 7:10pm PT
++++
Arjun_m....
What is the problem my man? Why so much hatred of Pakistanis?
++

Because you took away his pride by taking away the land which (suppossedly ) belonged to him and converted his loved(now hated) brothers to another religion. he now demonstrates his love for his muslim kashmiri betheren by making them welcome in India give or take a few bullets..

Dear Aamir

If you read the article, it clearly mentions that the 3.2% figure is for West Pakistan only in 1947 and 22% figure for Pakistan now ( even that is erroneous IMO and cited without reference). Nowhere does the author mention that ``22%`` includes the present day Bangladesh. Okay let us spare the author and assume that he made a (careless)mistake while citing a figure of 22% for Pakistan which should have been Pak+Bangladesh, as you want to believe. Then the figure of 3.2 % for the erstwhile Pak (Pak+Bangladesh) at the time of independence is absolute crap. Do some math and you will find out that for the combined region of Pak+Bangladesh to increase its share from 3.2% to 22% with respect to India would require astronomical growth rate. By astronomical I mean astronomical!!! My dear friend you must understand that the author is a third rate journalist with no idea of numbers he throws around. There are some other numbers in his article which are way off the mark, but I dont consider this author worthy of any more attention.


PS I believe that there should be a requirement for all Desi journalists to do some basic courses in statistical analysis. Also a basic knowledge of science and technology would go a long way in improving the standards of journalism. Whenever I read science/tech news comming from desi media, I can not help laughing out aloud.

#125 by jay on December 25, 2002 6:32pm PT

The great democrat... So your idea of democracy goes like this..

There cant be anything better than staying with us.. So they must be mad or harbour hatred against us to seperate from us..

Why the great pacifists of India cant accept the fact that a set of people did not chose to stay with them and prefered to live in a socitey where they can follow thier own cultural/religious way of life? Wethere they were right or wrong and wethere they achived a better life or not is not the business of the indians to think. They made their choice and live it for better or worse. Why should anybody tie his pride to that?

This false pride is what makes India cling on to kashmir as well as the states in the fareast all troubled with voilence and militancy.

I dont understand on what basis do many Indians justify the forcible keeping of these states.. Many give justification of common culture or presence of hindus etc.. I that case why is Nepal not a state of India or for that matter why is Sri Lanka not part of India?

This foolish expense of money and attention in keeping these areas under the control of India has cost dearly over the decades.


Why is there such constant feelign of hurt and need to demonise the other.

#34 by adnan_rafiq on December 22, 2002 9:33am PT

Good post...

These guys take positon of total innocence. Now who was funding the people behind th e progroms in Gujrat.. Most likely the guys like these were putting in thier contributions.

Now who can justify Al Quaida and not be criticized justifiably?
but the suppourters of VHP/Bajrang Dal/RSS etc and its front BJP and the people who ally with their agenda on mulsims in congress or other parties they consittue a good portion of India.

The shits like who rant here expect to hide their hate under the seeming reasonable critisizim of mulsims or Islam..

Notice how conviently most of them shy away from admitting any suppourt to the sangh.. But if every person on the various boards I encounter hates the Sangh are we to assume that that the millons who suppourt it have disappeared?

Most of them serioulsy belive that the hindus have been very peaceful thorughout time..
Now that means to there were no wars before the muslim invaders came....How absurd..
they convinently do not high light that even hindu kings raided temples.
There were mudreous and voilent interaction between the Vaishnavism and Shivism is conviniently forgotten
The expulsion or disappearnce of Buddhist creed once prevalent throughout India is suppossed to have come magically and without voilence...
The inherrent voilence in the caste system is convinently forgotten or explained away as a social structure of earlier times... as if it was some vauge discrimination in getting jobs ect.

The fact is that the voilent and terrorist face of the miitant hindu could be the one quietly sitting next to you in your office earning dollars writing code..

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#129 by rsaxena
//...everyone needs some holiday cheer...let his readers have theirs...//

Yep - let the pakis rant and rave like unhinged lunatics.

For rest of us - cheers for the chrismas gift , the delhi metro - a job well done.

Metro delight for Delhi residents
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/2603033.stm
``city`s brand new metro rail system, said to be one of the most sophisticated in the world. ``

re: pankaj

{PS This so called ``journalist`` is a third rate author citing false data. In general, I find Desi media,especially Pakistani one (okay, call me a biased Indian :-)) to be full of stupid people with little training in logic. To add insult to the injury, they compound their mediocrity by not doing their homework before writing. }

...everyone needs some holiday cheer...let his readers have theirs...

For the benefit of the chowkies, I found a good interactive color coded world map where you can see the performance ratings of different govts in the world on issues such as corruption, accountability, rule of law etc.

http://info.worldbank.org/governance/kkz/gov2001map.asp



PS Pardesi, the first para in #122 is from the article and not from your post. Hamidm could be right in #121 when he discusses the prevailing views in India/Pak about each other.

re: hamidm

{.......... i am not suggesting that this pakistani ``international businessman`` is correct ....... as far as i know the guy might be an idiot and his figures are probably a mile off .......... all i am saying is that this represents a fairly common view of india in pakistan among the ``educated`` and ``enlightened`` .......as for the unwashed masses, they think that most hindoos are blood thirsty savages who eat little children for breakfast as they dance around kali mata ...........intractable postions on both sides ......... really, it is quite hopeless .......... the best we can hope for is a swift and painless nuclear exchange ............ }


...yup, can`t argue with that....

hamidm,

I read the linked article. What many posters like pankaj have missed is the notion of an average educated pakistani that the muslims of india is of their concern, the notion of umma. For them the fact that so many remained in india is a failure of the TNT, but they will not even let the muslims who are in pakistan, and who hailed from bangladesh allow to be pak citizens.

There is no doubt that the mind set of the educated pakistanis, entrenched in the ideas of umma, jihad and guided by the TNT mind set cannot create any semblence of indo pak peace. Pakistan is likely to be in the forefront of clash of civilisation and barbarism.

rsaxena

.......... i am not suggesting that this pakistani ``international businessman`` is correct ....... as far as i know the guy might be an idiot and his figures are probably a mile off .......... all i am saying is that this represents a fairly common view of india in pakistan among the ``educated`` and ``enlightened`` .......as for the unwashed masses, they think that most hindoos are blood thirsty savages who eat little children for breakfast as they dance around kali mata ...........intractable postions on both sides ......... really, it is quite hopeless .......... the best we can hope for is a swift and painless nuclear exchange ............

Pardesi#120

``For in 1947 the Gross Domestic Product (GDP) corresponding to the area called West Pakistan was only 3.2 per cent of the total GDP of British India. Now Pakistan’s GDP, 55billion dollars is nearly 22 per cent of the combined Indo-Pak GDP! ``

Let us visit the World Bank for the 2001 report on GDPs.

http://www.worldbank.org/data/databytopic/GDP.pdf

India: $ 477.555 bn
Pakistan: $59.605 bn
Bangladesh: $46.652 bn

I dont have the GDP figures for the erstwhile ``British India`` and I very much doubt the figure of ``3.2%`` that the author throws around without proper reference. The sources are important here since I am not aware if the proper GDP calculation for the area now comprising Pakistan(with Punjab partitioned) was ever done as a separate region in ``British India``. Secondly the actual share of Pak GDP as a percentage of the countries formerly a part of British India, i.e. India+Pak+Bangladesh, in 2001 is 10.2 % and not 22%. Also notice the incorrect comparison when the author compares Pak share of GDP in 1947 with respect to British India and to its share now with respect to India-Pak. Someone please inform the author that British India consisted of Bangladesh too. Even if we disregard Bangladesh`s GDP, the Pak share would be 59.6/(59.6+477.5)=11.1% in 2001 and not the absurd 22%.


PS This so called ``journalist`` is a third rate author citing false data. In general, I find Desi media,especially Pakistani one (okay, call me a biased Indian :-)) to be full of stupid people with little training in logic. To add insult to the injury, they compound their mediocrity by not doing their homework before writing.

re: hamidm

{http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_25-12-2002_pg3_4 }

...``Iqbal Latif is an international businessman``...hehe...i like the credibility of this author...about as much as urstruly...as fcuked up as india is, it is nowhere nearly as fcuked up as bakistan and both you and i know it...change in a country of a billion people that started with nothing takes time...

# 116
The “international businessman” in the article cited is wrong on many counts:

Per worldbank data for 2001, Pakistan’s GDP was $59.6B while India was at $457B. Therefore Pakistan is at 11.55% of combined GDP and not 22% as claimed by this businessman. I am sure, the numbers for 2002 won`t be that different.

Also, he states that Pakistan has “produced” 173,000 doctors since 1947, while “practicing” muslim doctors in India are 19,000. The esteemed businessman forgets that this is not fair comparison. Many muslim doctors produced in India since 1947 might have left India or just plain died. Just minor detail. Ofcourse we are not even talking about other major reasons - a large percentage of highly educated muslim families left for Pakistan in 1947.

http://devdata.worldbank.org/external/CPProfile.asp?SelectedCountry=PAK&CCODE=PAK&CNAME=Pakistan&PTYPE=CP

Hmm, folks what can Indians do to Pakistanis -- Pakis really -- that they won`t do to themselves?

I say to all Indians, forget wars, forget everything. Just keep up the pressure and watch them self destruct.

Oh yes, our leaders should feel free to threaten them once every 6 months. After all we need to keep their national security council well fed...

Right, of course not, there is no arms race in the INDIAN sub continent :)

#116 Hamidm2

Bouquet of fine Islamabadi roses are on its way.
Thanks.
:)

jay mian,

.......and this is the best possible view from pakistan:

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_25-12-2002_pg3_4

............ so i guess we are at an impasse - so let the games begin and may the best eunuch win .........

Hamidm,

One can act and may be react to the events only through a system of interpretation, and in that sense TNT and jihad are central concepts that guide the pak society, at least in one interpretation of it.

Many, even on chowk, who cannot see this, talk of solving the kashmir issue, think of 9/11 as a CIA plot, want the world to believe that Osama is a bearded nomad herding goats. I recognise that pakistanis come up with cow urine drinking and the like, but they have no interpretive power like the TNT and jihad.

To give an example, the notion of controlling the jihadic frontier, is now a widely accepted idea, talked about on the chowk, several years ago.

#109 by arjun_m
//...Now you average pakis have to live with the consequences... ///

As you sow, so you reap - the saying goes. For the average pakistani - it was quite fun when it lasted. The Jehadis were whipping hindu azz in Kashmir - 30,000 dead, 300,000 displaced, an army of ``700,000`` is beaten: it was only a matter of time the ``cowardly`` hindu army surrenders to the ``brave`` muslim jehadis. Alright brothers - throw in a few more rupees in that donation box in the street corner.

So the donation boxes in pakistani bazzars were overflowing with cash for the ``good cause`` and pakistanis were getting maximum bang for their money.

Now that the pay back time has come - the ``brave`` muslims have started whinning like little girls. Oh well....

Talibanisation of Kashmir?

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/html/comp/articleshow?artid=32293098

``Close on the heels of beheading four women in Rajouri district and the burning of a cigarette shop, militant outfits have directed Muslims to follow a set of guidelines like the Taliban had done in Afghanistan.
``

OPINION From The Nation (Lahore) December 25th. 2002

What clash of civilisations?

Izzat Majeed
It is time to forget this whole mess about the `clash of civilisations.` Yes, there is a `civilisation` in the advanced, market-based democracies in the West. But there is no `Islamic civilisation` today, and there has not been one since the collapse of the great Abbasi Empire when Halaku Khan, the grandson of Chengiz Khan, burnt Baghdad to the ground in 1250. That fire also destroyed what was by then the greatest library the world had ever seen.
After the fall of Baghdad, the unified empire of Islam and the civilisation it gave rise to, dissipated into regional kingdoms. Muslim rule survived in Al-Andalus and some of the great debates surrounding the de facto secular nature of the Abbasis continued unabated but they did not outlive the end of Muslim rule in Spain.
Islam`s golden period created the Islamic Civilisation. It was based on a spirit of inquiry, tolerance of different views of religion, society, and the interpretation Islam`s early centuries. The Abbasis in Baghdad and the Muslims in Spain created the basis of what could have been a dynamic, constantly evolving and progressive Islamic Civilisation. But by the beginning of the 14th century, this great Civilisation was frozen in time and place by the rulers and jurists of the day who proclaimed the end of debate and dialogue.
Islam never saw another unified empire. The Ottoman empire did lay claim to a caliphate of sorts but, ultimately, it remained an Ottoman entity that happened to be Muslim. The Mughals of India ruled India as secular Muslims. Emperor Akbar even tried to create a fusion of religions (the `Din-e-Ilahi` - religion of God) which, in its failure, only highlighted the secular nature of the Mughal empire. And when the last of the great Mughals, Aurangzeb, turned fanatic, it hastened the collapse of the empire. Islam saw lesser kingdoms from the Maghreb to the Far East, but they were all local and regional.
The dawn of the bourgeois nation-state, along with the collapse of `empire` in Europe and the consolidation of capitalism after 1848, further eroded any collective sense of `civilisation` within Islam. The Muslim `Ummah,` which had expired with the collapse of the Abbasis, begun to think in terms of individual national liberation movements.
Thus the nationalism of the anti-colonial struggle in Muslim-majority areas in the 20th century developed into a secular struggle for independence and human rights. Islam was never the ideological force in any of these nationalist movements. In India, the Muslims (a minority in social and economic decline) started off alongside the Hindus in the independence struggle. The ulema were dead against the creation of Pakistan. The Quaid-e-Azam, the founder of Pakistan, was a nationalist who only sought minority protection in the face of Hindu obduracy and the classical British ``divide and rule`` policy. Here is what the Quaid said on the eve of Pakistan`s creation to the Constituent Assembly:
``You may belong to any religion or creed, that has nothing to do with the business of state --- you will find that in due course of time Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense, because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the State.``
The Quaid died soon after this speech and the mullahs waylaid his secular Pakistan and robbed the Muslims of any civilised future. After all the Muslims of South Asia form over 40 percent of the world`s total Muslim population. So, when we get worked up about the `clash of civilisations`, we are merely confusing the existing `Western` civilisation with a defunct `Islamic` one. Yes, there is a clash. But it is not between Muslims and the West. It is a clash of haves and have-nots. It is a clash of the rich, arrogant, enfranchised US-led West and the poor, humiliated and disenfranchised peoples of underdeveloped countries, which happen to have Muslim majority populations.
The Muslims do not hate America. They hate US policies, be they for the control of oil (creating the whole mess in the Middle East and beyond) or access to markets, or keeping the war machine in shape. Give a Muslim half a chance and he (and more so, she) would love to be educated in the US, benefiting from all the freedoms enjoyed by American citizens (the present curtailment of human rights there notwithstanding). And he would also fight to bring those freedoms to his people.
We forget the US is an imperial power, no different from any other in history. Rome was the centre of the world. It was the dream of every Roman subject to get Latin rights, the then equivalent of a `green card`, or better still, full citizenship. The ``barbarians``, when defeated, became the most ferocious defenders of the Empire. One such ``outsider``, Philip, the Arab, rose to become Caesar (244-249) during the thousandth year of Rome. It is in the nature of an imperial power to constantly seek consolidation and extension of ``empire`` with all the economic, cultural, political and military power at its command.
So, there is no reason to cry with the tears of Western `civilisation` when it is acting in the only way that makes sense to its imperial dictates. We Muslims have no civilisation (Islamic or secular) to defend. Ignorance, poverty, the dark rule of self-inflicted dogmas, ruled by corrupt (and visionless) dictators, do not make a civilisation.
I cannot name a single `Muslim` country with any degree of democratic, `civilised` government today, and none is in sight. The millennium-old practice of Islam has a long, long way to go before it can be called civilised. So, where is the `clash of civilisations?` It is the age-old struggle of the downtrodden wanting just a loaf of bread and the freedom to eat it any which way they like.
It is pathetic and meaningless when Muslim fanatics talk about `jihad` against Western civilisation while enjoying all its benefits in their own dark and un-free societies. It is just as well that the vast majority of Muslims do not much care about these fanatics.
Look at the `Islamic` world and you will see that, with the exception of Iran and the Gulfdoms, all other Muslim countries are de facto secular societies governed by the civil law of the West. Iran is a special case (given the history of Shia-ism which comprises, at best, 10-15 percent of all Muslims) and the Gulfdoms are mere oil rentiers with illusions of nationhood living at the mercy of the West. The Gulf Muslims cannot drink oil (especially as it is unrefined and they can not make even the smallest nut or bolt of a refinery).
Islamic `fundamentalism` is a meaningless term, but the fundamentals of Islam are simple: belief in One God, prayer, fasting, charity (Zakat) and pilgrimage (Hajj). `Jihad`, about which the whole world is crying hoarse, particularly the Muslim fanatics, is not a fundamental pillar of Islam. In any event, the meaning of jihad, as mindless warlordism, is alien to Islam. In the fundamental pillars of Islam, there is nothing that can justify the religious mayhem a tiny minority of Muslims is desperately trying to inflict on the world at large. Fortunately, the vast majority of Muslims do not support the fundamentalists (the Mullah Business Ltd).
Most of us are too busy going about our disenfranchised and poverty-stricken lives to worry about the mullah`s world. However, the greater the disenfranchisement (look at the current political scene) and the more miserable the level of poverty and illiteracy, the more harmless the appeal of Islamic fanaticism. We may yet descend into the Taliban hell by default, given the current mullah-army nexus which seems to think it has finally hoodwinked the people into thinking they have reached the `end of politics.`
The lost `civilisation` of Islam has to be rediscovered with the mind of the 21st century. The mullahs offer nothing more than a dictatorship of the truly ignorant over the apathetic. It will be a long battle before the war against the present dark age of Islam can be won. The golden age of Islam is only relevant in giving us the freedom to think and interpret Islam. The mullah, on the other hand, wants to go back to camels and flying carpets.
The West, particularly the US, is not invincible if civilisations were to clash in earnest. The Chinese, Indian and Japanese, `civilisations` have clashed with the West at one time or another. The Chinese and Indians wanted independence; the Japanese economic domination. The Chinese and Indian `clashes` won; the Japanese lost, but then had the vision to learn from the West and prospered dramatically while keeping their own civilisation more or less wrapped up in Western clothes. The wars of independence in the post-1945 era defeated the West. The Vietnamese people defeated the US comprehensively, and yet, today, are trading and learning from their former enemy.
The time has come for us Muslims to declare jihad on our own ignorance and on the mullah`s hijacking of Islam. `There is no compulsion in religion` - Allah says so in the Quran. The US will always create its own demons to fight and conquer. The fingerprints they seek today are not of an Islamic civilisation (which the Muslims have to rediscover) but of an enemy they themselves have created.

Whoever says that arjun_m is biased, is a liar.arjun tells things as they are and he does not hate the muslims,because he himself is an aethist born of a christian mother and hindu pandit father.The only thing he hates is pakistan and pakistanis and he has a very valid reason for that hatred.His father is sindhi hindu pandit from pakistan who impregnated arjun`s mother without marrying her, resulting into a love child who is none other than our own arjun and that gentlemen is his raison d`etre.
Carry on your good work.The pakis might learn something from you ;)

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Hamidm, the inimitable

``after a while it gets tiresome and nobody pays any attention except for fools on the other side ....... and they come back with the same old crap about cow urine and the rss ............so what`s one to do? .......... i don`t know, i look at the chowk as entertainment and you guys need to come up with some new material .........even i have given up on my horrible hindoo routine which had a pretty successful run .......... ``

Some people (including me) need to take your advice seriously :-). The old stuff has been recycled too many times for it to have any effect. Show some ingenuity guys and come up with some new ideas so that we can make our cyber-fight against ``them`` more interesting.

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arjun and jay,

......... we all know that indians don`t like pakis and vice versa ......... but don`t you think it is a little silly to spend all your time going over the same old stuff - TNT, jihad, etc. etc ................after a while it gets tiresome and nobody pays any attention except for fools on the other side ....... and they come back with the same old crap about cow urine and the rss ............so what`s one to do? .......... i don`t know, i look at the chowk as entertainment and you guys need to come up with some new material .........even i have given up on my horrible hindoo routine which had a pretty successful run ..........

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ferozk #100
By statements issued to the press, it seem the US is going to do this with immigrants of all nationalities eventually, they are just going down the list by priority.

And donot discount an element of psychological warfare in this new measure. Going by what comes out in the press, internally, the US govt seems to be stuck between two warring schools of thought about the reliability and wholeheartedness(or lack of) of cooperation from its frontline allies the Saudi and Pakistani governments. This measure could be a peace offering between both schools of thought.

This is an answer to all those, who are wondering aloud why Pakistanis are being made the recipients of special laws in the world. which seem to be poliitcally incorrect, biased, racial in their intention and generally, can be lumped under the umbrella of a civilizational conflict between the west and Islam.

Pakistanis are being targetted by the United States` INS and made to register, because of the simple reason that the sovereign writ of the state of Pakistan has lost its legitimacy. Given the internal political situation in Pakistan, there is an international perception that Pakistan is a ``soft state``. Since the state of Pakistan itself is incapable of dealing with the law and order situation, the Americans are opting to deal it instead. That is why the FBI is conducting ``active operations`` inside Pakistan and doing the job, which Pakistani law enforcement agencies should have been doing in the first place.

This is the reason, why the Pakistanis are being subjected to the special treatment. It is common knowledge that Pakistani passports can be bought on the black market and if the price is correct, any one can become a Pakistani national; the Afghans have been doing this for the last twenty years. The term ``Pakistan`` and ``Pakistani`` has no credibility in the world. The world did not make this possible, but it was the result of the actions of the Pakistanis themselves.

Blaming the entire creation but ourselves will not alter this reality and if we, Pakistanis, wish to change this image of us in the world, then we have to make a clean break with our past and its misguided policies, which has landed us in the present cul-de-sac of our misfortunes. This policy can be reversed if and only if, Pakistanis start becoming accountable for their actions and are held responsible for this deeds or misdeeds.

Pakistanis, do not blame others for what is rightfully your own sins and the result of your own actions; learn to accept responsibility instead of shying away from it and above all, learn to accept the reality instead of pretending to believe in a self propagated myth.

I had been saying this for the last three years and I was ridiculed by many on Chowk, but the greatest threat to Pakistan comes not from India or the war on terror, but from Pakistanis themselves. We are own worst enemies. To quote and paraphrase Abraham Lincoln, ``the fate of the country rests in your hands, my fellow dissatisfied countrymen`` and remember, a house divided against itself cannot stand. Think about it and think hard and in the name of all that is holy and decent to you, stop whining and stop seeking shelter in the house of conspiracy theories. To put it bluntly, the world is not so much against us as it is against our hypocricy, our ignorance compounded by our arrogance and our holier than thou attitude.

The last time I checked, the Saudi Arabians were the custodians of Islam and not us!

This is our last clarion call; there will not be a redemption if we miss this opportunity and unlike individuals, states are mortal; states are not reincarnated in the hereafter - they exist, live and die in the present by their own wits. In the words of Dylan Thomas, we can all rage against the dying of the light or we can gently disappear into the dark night of historic failures, never to be heard again. The choice is our to make and regardless, we have to live with the consequences and this time, my fellow citizens, the American Seventh Fleet`s arrival will have a different symbology.

Ciao

Another apologist

`` The Islamic forces in Pakistan are being shrill today, because also sense the inevitable and are becoming desperate to resist the grain. Extermist policies and reactions to circumtances result from a sense of desperation, when all else seems to fail and force and violence is the only choice available to resist the foredained``

The above is from a post by Ferzok. Pakistanis living in pakistan are getting desperate about their condition in pakistan. One goes to the US, a few goes to kenys, thousands come to india to attack red fort, parliment, kashmir. All because they are desperate.

Ferozk, learn it from me, jihad, killing of the kafirs can be practiced openly only in pakistan, the land created for islam. It took 50 years to achieve this, and at last accept it. There is no desperation among the pakistanis, money collected from the mosques, collected from the laskers meet at madrike are the funds that support jihad. There has been no attack what so ever by the jihadists against the rulers in khaki, it is against the ahmadias, shias, the kafirs.

Spare the world the desperation and economic misery of the jihadists, it is pure greed, to get the only reserved seat in heaven.

re: arjun_m

{Why aren`t Indian muslims required to register? Pakistan = islam and islam = pakistan wont work with a lot of people... }

...ouchhh...this gets many bakistanis realllyyyyy pissed off...and when countries like iraq give outright support to india`s position on kashmir...

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As a brown American citizen and former immigrant, let me weigh in here. First of all, I`m totally sympathetic with the author. This kind of treatment is insulting, and the kind of stuff that induces hatred in those less restrained. On the issue of immigration in America, I think it is safe to say that xenophobia still lives here, as it does all over the world. Remember what made this country great was not indiscriminate immigration, but white European immigration. At least that`s how some white folks see it (I`m not racist, and neither are most white people!). Numerous examples of the success of non-white immigrants in America, from African to Carribean to Cuban to the recent success of Asians in Silicon Valley and elsewhere are of course utterly irrelevant to the xenophobic mind. If you look different, you must be dangerous. And I speak from personal experience here, both as an immigrant, as well as an ordinary brown person in America. I`m reminded of the frightened MIT student who broke into a full sprint at the sight of me. Does wonders for your self esteem; as my dear friend Charles used to say with relish: at least I know I can scare the shit out of white folks if I wanted to. That`s being black in America for you. And to quote the always insightful Ice-T: ``Mexican is black, Puerto Rican is black, Indian is black, etc.`` You get the picture.

As to the merrits of racial profiling, in a word, it`s a bunch of bull. There are many many characteristics of a traveler that one can look at to determine risk, and their skin pigmentation or even their nation of citizenship is utterly irrelevant. I`d love to see the numbers on terrorists who were caught as a direct result of racial profiling. If the INS wanted to do their jobs properly, they`d talk to the Israelis. I`ve heard first-person accounts of American jews being thoroughly grilled by Israeli immigration. They don`t fool around, and they don`t care where you are from. The truth is that the INS is completely incapable of keeping track of who comes in and out of this country, and so they resort to the kind of tactics described in this article. When in doubt, cast the dragnet. It so happened that I had to travel internationally shortly after 9/11. When I came back, the immigration hall was full of obviously Arab people, entire families, waiting and waiting and waiting. I felt their pain, but I was glad to breeze through with my American passport. We don`t live in utopia yet, and foreigners are still too often treated with disdain and mistrust. So if you want to make America your home, I strongly recommend going all the way and becoming a citizen. Generally speaking you are treated much better, and at least under the law, you are no different from the blue eyes :-)

Arjun_M, HamidM at al:

Behavioral profiling has elements of Racial characteristics. I do not advocate the usage of Race alone as a basis for profiling, but to completely eliminate race as a factor is completely irrational as well.
No law enforcement agency has advocated the basis of race alone as a deciding factor, but to ignore race ie. put blond swedes and swarthy arabs at same risk perception level is simply put ridiculous.

Good to see practically every hindu on this board has replied to my statement. Puts things in a clearer light as to where your group stands.
Indignity heaped on muslims is always treasured by adversaries regardless of how much they try to justify it.

As for the special registration, it is religious profiling at its best. Do you imagine a terrorist would be fool enough to stand in line to get fingerprinted?

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RSAXENA:

The point is African American community in general went from supporting a ban on racial profiling to advocating the usage of racial profiling once the target changed. That is hypocricy.

Adnan:

``Just a few years ago, I used to oppose TNT vehemently. But, after taking into account what`s been going on in India and talking to several ``Secular`` Hindus and family members who still reside in Indian (mainly Delhi, Agra, Lucknow and Fatehpur), I am beginning to feel what Jinnah must have felt when he broke away from Congress and joined the Muslim League. ``

I`m glad you`ve realized that TNT was such a great thing. Now, do you want to explain the benefits of TNT to family members who reside in the various places in India? Is Pakistan going to accept the leftovers of TNT?
If Jinnah is right, what are you balming the Hindus for? You should be celebrating the Hindu fulfillment of Jinnah`s TNT. (Sarcasm intended)

As far as the INS is concerned, I didn`t know about the facts you mentioned. I was under the impression that people who were illegal were the ones who were hauled up, and I still don`t see anything wrong with that. Every lawbreaker is someone`s brother/father etc. However, if, like you said, people were in the middle of green card processing, them detaining them is plain wrong. In fact, then, the INS action itself is illegal because as long as your application has been accepted and is pending you are considered to be in legal stays. The attorneys of the detained should then file suit against the INS in court.

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arjun: A survey of 500 people out of 1.2 billion Muslims belonging to many races, countries and cultures? Not to mention the fact that only 11% out of the woefully small number (500) of people interviewed said such things. This makes it about 55 people. Come on, give me a break! Besides, the focus of this article is Muslims in U.S., most of whom have repeatedly said it on national TV, newspapers and talk shows that they do not support terrorism. But, I can always find 500 people who would say otherwise. And, of course, being the hate mongerer that you are, you would always concentrate on the small picture and want all the Muslims to suffer because of them.

I agree that I should not have used the term ``racial bias``. Please substitute this with ``religious bias``. Happy now?

arjun_m,
I have been reading you for a year now and find that you speak the truth and honestly point out the ailments of the muslim ummah. What is your
suggestion for the remedy, if there is any.

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#79 knsridhar:
Really? Please provide examples of how ``MOST`` Muslims break the rules in this country. There are 6 - 8 million Muslims in the U.S. I challenge you to prove that even 1% of this population engages in violence against America. Those of you who say that Indians only have a problem with Pakistan or TNT, please read this fellow`s remarks and see the truth for yourself.

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Ralph #72:
[ ... At the same time, any country wishing to survive must keep out those who believe that they can live in peace with others only if their religion gets special privileges. Keeping such people out and deporting them to wherever they came from is every country`s duty toward its other citizens. ...]

Hmmm...let`s see. So going by this rationale, we should throw out the Jews for asking for Kosher labels on meats. We should throw out all the Christians for using the local town homes for Christmas celebrations. We should throw out any religious person who supports the idea of school vouchers. This is absurd. I think the only people who deserve to be thrown out are those who callously throw around the idea of throwing people around like broken furniture because their views don`t coincide with theirs. And, by the way, what are the ``special privileges`` that American Muslims are asking for which are unconstituional? Can you name one?

Having said that, I believe that Muslims in the U.S. must not only learn to respect but wholeheartedly embrace the idea of the separation of church and state. We need to understand and respect the U.S. Constitution. If there`s something you don`t like about it, you could either leave or try to amend it by using the tools provided by the Consitution itself. There`s nothing wrong in lobbying to change the U.S. foreign policy vis-a-vis the Middle East as long as it remains within the confines of the constitutional framework. Muslims should also realize that they have to respect the pluralistic nature of this society and coexist peacefully with other religions. If you look around with untainted glasses, you will see that 99% of American Muslims do just that. Of course, the first generation whines about the social structure of this country (many Imams and Mullahs of mosques do unjustified U.S. bashing), but they`re not any different from first generation Irish, Germans or Italians. Assimilation is not an instant process. The seconed generation of Muslims, I am proud to say, consists of highly educated professionals. Our kids are lawyers, doctors, scientists and MBAs working for Fortune 500 companies. Their brilliance and dedication can only bring more prosperity to the U.S. Many of them are good Muslims and do not see a clash or chasm between their beliefs and the mainstream society.
But, what surprises me the most is to hear people trying to tell Muslims to not raise their voices against racially biased schemes, such as the Special Registration witch hunt, because it is better than what they left back home. I agree that even in its worse form, U.S. will be ten times better than the undemocratic, brutal regimes of Pakistan and Arab countries. But, this is not a good enough reason to take sh?t from anyone. We did not come here to be treated like this all over again. We cannot be held liable for the actions of Osama bin Laden. On the contrary, we came to this country to raise our kids away from religious nuts like him. What seems like a slap on the wrist today could easily turn into full-fledged pummeling in the future. The time to stop racial profiling aimed at Muslims is now. After all, raising your voice against discrimination is to follow a well-established American tradition and a cornerstone of its consitution - liberty for ALL. Don`t let people tell you that its okay to be treated like this because 1% of your population believes in violence in the name of Islam. Racial profiling never was and never will be justified. People who tell you otherwise have their own vendettas which are driven by centuries old vengeance. Their primary motivation is settling scores not reformation.

re: arjun

{You are wrong about this. African Americans support profiling of muslims post-9/11. Let me see if i can find the report. }

...i`m sure they do...but as a % of all blacks, is the support amongst them higher than that amongst whites?..

although the muslims follow the rules of the land most of them given a chance brake all rules and create violence in the land that give them food and security the violence the indulge in the name of peace and properity is nothing but insecurity to the people this is happening in all most all the part of world where ever they are present in numbers and are never a patriot

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stuka #66:
FYI, many of the people arrested were in the middle of green card processing. A lot of them were arrested because of the incompetencies of the INS itself. The impression that had been given to such people was that the Special Registration proceedings only involved fingerprinting and photos. Had they known that it was a complete background check, they would have made arrangements to get all the legal paperwork from their lawyers to prove their status legitimacy. It was never made clear to them that they could be arrested.
I can just imagine you sitting in your ivory castle waxing eloquent about the need for racial profiling. I want you to imagine for a moment that its your own father or brother who`s locked up behind bars and being forced to sleep on the floor with other criminals. The Puritans of New England also had several very good reasons for the persecution of people who did not agree with them. But their actions still cannot be justified. If we condone racial profiling, we are leaving the door open for racial discrimination too.

[... Trust me, I am Hindu and I do not sit around in Starbucks or the neighborhood bar moping about the injustices done to my people by Ahmed Shah Abdali or some other random dude. ...]

lol - tell this to the mothers, fathers, brothers and sisters of Muslims who were slaughtered mercilessly for the very same reason. I`m sure it will make them feel very secure to know that you don`t sit in Starbucks whining about Ahmed Shah Abdali who lived hundreds of years ago. Just a few years ago, I used to oppose TNT vehemently. But, after taking into account what`s been going on in India and talking to several ``Secular`` Hindus and family members who still reside in Indian (mainly Delhi, Agra, Lucknow and Fatehpur), I am beginning to feel what Jinnah must have felt when he broke away from Congress and joined the Muslim League.

re: stuka

{As far as hypocricy is concerned, the Arican American communitry can be blamed for it because they were AGAINST racial profiling when it was talked about in terms of Law Enforcement and are now it`s most enthusiastic supporters, not that the focus is on someone else. }

...ohmygod...have you been hunting moose with trent lott?...as a group, blacks are probably no more or less enthusiastic about this than whites...

Ras, Ferozk, hamidm2, tahmed32 would be an asset to any nation, including America. At the same time, any country wishing to survive must keep out those who believe that they can live in peace with others only if their religion gets special privileges. Keeping such people out and deporting them to wherever they came from is every country`s duty toward its other citizens.

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stuka

``then why should an African American male driving a $30,000 mustang in South Central L.A. not be pulled over for a routine check``

....... i didn`t expect that from you ...... just put yourself in that poor guy`s shoes and think about how he would feel

......... there might be a very fine line between profiling and blatant racism ..........there is a wonderful article in today`s nytimes (oped page) that struck a chord with me ........it is very difficult for those of us who have not suffered the evil of racism to understand how the african american might ``feel`` if he is stopped for driving while black ............

I think Feroze says it best:

``The United States is not against Islam or Muslims, but only against those who threaten the American way of life. The Muslims see the United States as threatening their own way of life and the end result is a situation marred by an incompatibility of perceptions and opinions``


The US has nothing specific against Muslims. But there is an American way of life and if the Islamic way of life is incompatible with it, then the Muslims who wish to live the latter need to stay away. Those people who are born Muslims, but choose the American way of life are unfortunately paying for the transgressions of Muslims who belong in the other category.

Again, communism as a way of life was also incompatible with the American way, and look what happened to them. Pre as well as post McCarthy.

Bhitai:

``I wonder if your war criminal from Gujarat shows up at an American airport, would he be fingerprinted? ``

Dude, you seem to have a problem with logical thinking. Firstly, why ask someone on Chowk. Go to the Dep`t of Justice website to see if they would fingerprint a VHP killer from Gujarat.

Let me save you the trouble: They won`t.

Also, do you understand the term ``war criminal``. To my knowledge, there was no war declared on Gujarat.

If you refer to goons of the VHP, ...well the day that organization targets America and American interests abroad, yes, hindu visitors will certainly be put in the same list...till then..you`re SOL.

Adnan Rafiq:

I have supported Racial Profiling before Sept 11 as well, simply because it makes sense inh terms of Law Enforcement. If Afican Americans commit more crimes, relative to their population percenbtage, then why should an African American male driving a $30,000 mustang in South Central L.A. not be pulled over for a routine check. The individual has nothing