Gujrat - The Verdict Of God

And what is the biggest democracy in the world?

Where all the citizens have an equal opportunity to be killed!


Ah, but the equation, the mathematics, breaks down here: some have a higher opportunity to be killed than the others.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


#6 by UmerMurtaza on March 16, 2003 2:39am PT
Look people,

I gotta agree with Harimau. India is a secular country to the max. It kills everyone: Sikhs, Muslims, Christians, Hindus... it doesn`t discriminate.

Ha ha. Couldn`t resist.

Hey, here`s another joke: What do you a call a country with a population problem?

The biggest Democracy in the world.

Boom boom!

Umer M

Tipu:

``You are right Rajiv Gandhi should not have played to extremists on both sides.But you wiill agree Rajiv did that more to keep both the Hindu & muslim vote ``

Exactly. The secularists themselves never remained secular. They pandered to the Muslim fundamentalists on Sha Bano, and then to make up, allowed the Shilanayas at Ayodhya. That is the root of the divide, because themoment you start pandering to religious sentiment, there is no end to it.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

#46 by tahmed32 on March 20, 2003 7:00am PT

Looks like my post got your goat this time. Talk some sense man.

Tipu I agree with you. Tell me something, in your opinion, if the Muslim leadership had not pressurized the Rajiv Gandhi government to dismiss the supreme court ruling to dismiss the Shah Bano case, would Hindutva not have recieved the passive support it got.

Let me explain the last statement. There is a certain percentage of Hindus who hate Muslims. Those are outside the pale. The majority of Hindus, while not actually hating Muslims, feel like they had it coming. Do you think the latter Hindus were affected by the Shah Bano case?

btw, take your time and reply, but be careful about typos and such, otherwise your post becomes unreadable.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

#43 by Tipu on March 19, 2003 9:10am PT

I WOULDN`T AGREE WITH YOU THAT FEB 2002 GUJriot WAS LIKE MUMBAI ,BHOPAL ,BHAGALPUR ,ALIGARH OR ANY OTHER OF THOUSAND COMMUNAL RIOTS IN iNDIA SINCE INDEPENDENCE .THIS gujjuRIOT WAS THE FIRST TIME BOTH CENTRE &* STATE JOINED TO BLAME THE VICTIM(JAFFRI ETC.)

GUJJUriot was first time used to consolidate a quasi political cum extremists bjp with its looong tail of bajrang dal ,vishwa hindu parishad,rashtrya sewa sangh,shiv sena ,hindu maha sabha ,old jan sangh ,etc.etc.

The hatred against muslim was MANUFACTURED to garnish vote for BJP and the end result PROVES the motive & culprit UNDOuBTEDLY !!!!!!!!

My dear friend,

Nowhere did I justify the carnage that occured in Gujarat.

Everybody says you have to analyse two events of Godhra and post Godhra mutually separately. But the fact is that general population did not react that way...they indeed took the event of Godhra as almost declaration of war and went out and unjustfiably killed innocent muslims. It might not be convincing to you or me but whatever happened did happen because of reasons and Godhra was just the last straw in my opinion. These reasons or events which in certain people`s mind do justify the carnage in Gujarat shall be meanigfuly studied and understood or else we face the chance of history repeating itself.

harish_hyd #45 Like a 4 hour bollywood tragi-comedy-romantic-gangster movie, you are funny only when you dont intend to be funny.
Now run along and brag about your prithvi missiles and the sayings of General Padhamanbhavanrajagopalansrinivasanharishhydin and his million man army with Field Marshall Romair. And try not to wet your pants with joy at not having to report to INS agents.

#39 by tahmed32 on March 19, 2003 8:06am PT

(is that why you call yourself ``hyd``)

Honestly, as an Indian, I don’t think I have anything to hide. I don’t think the INS will ever knock at my doors and suspect me of being a terrorist, or even ask Indians en masse to register with the INS. OTOH, you, because of your nationality, could easily be suspected of being a terrorist, and spirited away to Guantanamo Bay. Is that why you call yourselves “t”ahmed?

[In the US you dont have mobs attacking minorities while the police look the other way and while the provincial chief minister celebrates this as an act of revenge. So spare me your morality. If you want to move yourself up a notch on the morality scale, I think you should see what this article is about (India`s in-border weaknesses) rather than trying to pass attention to ``across the border``.]

If you’re so convinced the US is so moral, why do you whine when you have to queue up at the INS registration centers to get yourselves registered and fingerprinted? Why do you mourn the loss of freedom when you’re being herded into the INS registration centers, interrogated, suspected of being terrorists and treated like sh*t?

[As for attacking Pakistan, you get carried away by your own rhetoric. It is not morality, but lack of military capability, that prevents India from doing that. If you dont believe me, read the newspapers of last year on how a million man Indian army marched up to the Pakistan borders and a couple of missile tests threw the cold water of reality on India`s BJP chauvinists.]

You seem to be much in the same mould as most Pakis that believe in the ``1 Paki= 10 Hindus`` theory. So Mr. “t”ahmed, it is you who has to wake up and smell the coffee. If you remember, the same media that you so often love to quote carried Gen. Padmanabhan`s interview in which he clearly said that the Indian Army was prepared to absorb a Pakistani nuclear strike, and still go ahead. No one, not even your so called best friends, China believed that the Paki Army would last the Indian blitz (please do a google search for more info on that). That`s why when Mushy rushed to Beijing at the height of the confrontation to seek China`s help in the event of a war, he was politely told by the Chinese to solve all outstanding disputes with India through negotiations.

In the past 6 years, India has acquired the latest, state-of-the-art defense hardware like the Sukhois, the Krivak class frigates, the aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov, developed and deployed the Agni and Prithvi class missiles, developed the supersonic cruise missile BrahMos, negotiated the purchase of Arrow radars and reconnaissance aircraft from Israel. OTOH, except for the obsolete No dong missile it had bartered from North Korea in exchange for providing nuclear technology which in turn is stolen too, and the Agosta class submarines, Pakistan’s acquisitions were zilch. Pakistan was struggling to procure spares for even its F-16s, touted as the PAF’s showpiece. As for the missiles, Pakistan had tested them quite a few times much before the Indian Army was actually mobilized, so who were you trying to surprise? Colin Powell, Richard Armitage, and Ari Fleischer (Bush`s spokesman), clearly described later how they had averted a certain war. So your `lack of military capability` argument goes out of the window. I know you’re a retired brigadier’s son, so you might be excused if you believed in this myth, but please don`t try to sell this crap to others, not even your to your fellow Pakis. They won’t be amused.

stuka #41 It is indeed true that political leaders are not as stupid as many of the joe schmoes one finds on chowk, and generally make decisions based on cost-benefit analysis. Trouble is, their cost-benefit analysis is geared to the following bottom line: does this help me retain/extend my political power. Once this bottom line is met, they then focus on the next consideration: promotion of their personal prejudices. This then becomes government policy, which in turn is properly cloaked in propoganda.
Jow schmoe then writes posts on chowk parroting his or hers respective government propoganda lines, with eyes tightly closed against reality.
(The above has come to be known as the Tahmed Theory of Everything You Wanted to Know About Chowk Warriors But Were Afraid to Ask).

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

TAhmed:

``It is not morality, but lack of military capability, that prevents India from doing that. ``

Most people tend to realize that at a fundamental level but lose sight of that fact in their emotional state. When I was in India, conversations revolved around America`s double standards in fighting terrorism in Afghanistan but not ``allowing`` India to fight Pakistan.

I got blue in the face saying that ``Idiots, America does not encourage an Indo-Pak war because it does not want craters where Delhi and Karachi stand.`` Beyond that, India does not need anyone`s permission to fight. It does not do so simply out of it`s pwn calculation of costs and benefits.

harish_hyd #37
The Pakistani Army is too busy looting its own people to fight or too afraid to fight at the borders and has fostered fanatic jihadis and underworld dons like Dawood Ibrahim to be their proxies to strike inside India instead.

Its only ostrich Pakistanis who fail to realise the danger in their national dependence on fanatics and criminals as instruments of policy. IMO, it will take only one major terrorist attack in India engineered by JeM/LeT or Dawood Ibrahim to bring us back to the brink of war and it willnot matter whether US did something similar before or not.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

harish_hyd #37 When you write ``India can put this menace of cross-border terrorism to an end forever even now.``, you demonstrate not just a short memory but also a need to hide (is that why you call yourself ``hyd``?) from reality. India, my friend is not the US, neither morally nor militarily nor culturally.
In the US you dont have mobs attacking minorities while the police look the other way and while the provincial chief minister celebrates this as an act of revenge. So spare me your morality. If you want to move yourself up a notch on the morality scale, I think you should see what this article is about (India`s in-border weaknesses) rather than trying to pass attention to ``across the border``. Learn from some of the other Indian posters on chowk who are obviously more enlightened on issues of morality than you are.
As for attacking Pakistan, you get carried away by your own rhetoric. It is not morality, but lack of military capability, that prevents India from doing that. If you dont believe me, read the newspapers of last year on how a million man Indian army marched up to the Pakistan borders and a couple of missile tests threw the cold water of reality on India`s BJP chauvinists. So, wake up and smell the coffee. Dont live in a dream world like your BJP chauvinists.

Some good points you have made there Partha.

But I would rather appreciate if you will go one steo ahead and declare this as not particularly relevant to Gujarat only but shortcomings of a system in general for the entire nation. More often that not this kind of disasters happen in our nation and we the common man are left with this bitter feeling that the systm could have handled the situation more aptly.

Carnage in Gujarat `was` more of a action-reaction phenomenon...and not just for the beginning. A lot of the stories of muslim retaliations though very minor in magnitude were circulated and infact reported by the media.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Guys, here`s something from `The Hindustan Times` that clearly details Uncle Sam`s double standards. Nothing`s lost yet though. India can put this menace of cross-border terrorism to an end forever even now. After all, if Bush can go around bandying the definition of ``pre-emption`` even before Iraq has become a threat to US interests, I think we have far more justification when it comes to our ``friendly`` neighbor.

Double standards, Bush style
Brahma Chellaney
March 18

On the eve of US President George W. Bush`s unprovoked invasion of Iraq in what is likely to prove a turning point in world history, his double standards echo louder than his professed justifications.

Bush contended that waiting to act after enemies have ``struck first is not self-defence, it is suicide``. So he said he is setting out to pre-emptively eliminate a prospective threat.

But just days ago, Bush pleaded with Vajpayee that India should continue to exercise restraint and keep the LoC stable in the face of not a prospective threat but an actual menace —- Pakistan`s sponsorship of cross-border terrorism, which Washington acknowledges persists. Bush then called his favourite dictator, Musharraf, to thank him for his ``excellent cooperation`` in the war on terrorism.

Bush argued that a key objective in invading Iraq in the face of international opposition is to bring democracy to that nation. But last weekend, he rewarded the strengthened dictatorship in Pakistan by lifting coup-related sanctions.

In sanctions-battered Iraq, Bush wishes to bring democracy by the bayonet, ``with the full force and might of our military``, but he lifts coup-related sanctions against Pakistan as a carrot to ``facilitate the transition to democratic rule``.

Bush told Americans that ``we cannot live under the threat of blackmail`` posed by the ``apparatus of terror`` in Iraq, and that the ``terrorist threat to America and the world will be diminished the moment Saddam Hussein is disarmed``. But the removal of the Iraqi despot and the installation of a Hamid Karzai in Baghdad would not reduce the scourge of international terrorism but could spur a jehadi backlash. Washington has not named one Al Qaeda leader holed up in Iraq, but all its big Al Qaeda ``catches`` have been in Pakistan.

Bush again raised the spectre of terrorists ``one day`` acquiring nuclear weapons ``with the help of Iraq``. He continues to ignore nuclear blackmail openly practised by Pakistan.

In fact, while exploiting 9/11 to the hilt to expand US strategic interests in the world, Bush responded to the December 13, 2001 Parliament attack by rushing $175 million worth of replacement parts to Islamabad and getting the Pakistani F-16 fighter jet fleet back in full service.

If there was one sentence in Bush`s disjointed speech that made more sense in the Indian than in the US context, it was this: ``We are now acting because the risks of inaction would be far greater``.

12-head #33
Your respect for womanhood is legendary on chowk(sarcasm).

If votes and public opinion have to be mustered against Hindutva parties, against their violence and hate rhetoric, this can be done only as effectively as the public record of their competitors will allow, who will do most of this mustering.

The so-called secular forces cannot win votes or get public opinion to their side based on claims of being `better` if for example their own ministers preside over abductions or their grassroots workers are as ruthless and violent as BD or VHP.

If they are not better, then the journalist, intellectual and political community which calls itself secular must show its committment to pluralism/secularism not just by scrutinizing Hindutva organisations, but shedding their hypocrisy and also addressing the abysmal public record of nonHindutva parties, and urgently before its too late.

#21 by Sobia on March 17, 2003 10:54pm PT

I think veeresh got it wrong. ``Indian vegitarian`` is usually most prefered by most travelling Indians. Which is basically Indian food without meat or eggs. Hindu vegetarian usually is also referred to as Jain meals by travelling Indians in europe etc. It is as described by veeresh. Similar food restrictions are followed by UP bhramins ie the Tirvedis, chaturvedies, Bhardjwajs etc. I think strong smell items like Hing etc are also avoided. The South Indian Bhramins have no qualms about eating roots.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

sadna #29
Correction:
The National Commission of Women demanded that the Bihar Government trace the kidnapped woman (Kanchan Mishra) who was reportedly abducted with her young child and married to a underworld don Sultan Mian(not his friend the MP as I said). As of January, the police had failed to trace the woman as directed by the National Commission of Women:
http://www.thehindu.com/2002/12/17/stories/2002121703641200.htm

From Bihar Times:

``..While local sources describing this incident said the victim who was working in a beauty parlour was forcibly lifted from her Mainpura residence in broad day light and taken to a local mosque for nikah ceremony. After nikah a lavish reception party was organised at the residence of RJD`s state minister Ejazul Haq. And much to the surprise the officer incharge of local police station was also present in the party. Initially her family members asked for help from local police but no one came to their help because don is close to RJD MP Shahabuddin and some other political leaders. ..``

I commend Mr. Parthasarthy for calling spade a spade. If at any time in future India overcomes communal hatred and the people in power enforce the spirit of the law, India will emerge as a super power.

We have to judge the people as human being first and then what they believe in. The new religion of the World that can not be stopped is the belief in human equality, liberty, human rights and justice for all.

Why America with a population of 280 million people is super power instead of China or India who have populations exceeding 1.0 billion. People wrongly believe that it is natural resources. If it is natural resources then why big Latin American countries like Brazil and Argentina are behind even small countries of Europe like Holland and Belgium.

America may not remain free as it used to be in the past, however basic freedoms have a lot to do with its being a super power. People from all over the World come work hard and get their reward.

Unlike Middle East, America gives freedom to own business, become citizens and vote, own property, run for public office and achieve the goals in life.

Mid East countries do not give equal rights or citizen ship even to their fellow Arabs. Legal workers from other countries have to get permission to go to another city in S. Arabia. So much for Islam and freedom.

With the advent of internet, all people should continue the propagation of the age old message of love and respect for human beings preached by Gotam Buddh, Christ, Moses, Mohammad, Kabir, Nanak and countless others.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

samina #25
``is there any sort of public debate/dialogue/address of this kind of behavior on mainstream media or community or university venues? ``

Any such dialogue needs to urgently take place in the nonpolitical realm, because every party organisation has historically indulged in this sort of violence and uses it as instrument. But Indians have a lot of other more pressing problems, so such intimidation is rued, but solutions are not discussed loudly enough for the culprits to care.

Every party from the most atheist Communist Party of India(Marxist) whose workers regularly murder their opponents,

the most nonBrahminical party All India Dravida Munnetra Kazhagam(whose cadres burnt some girls to death on a bus because they were angry that a court pronounced their leader J Jayalalitha to be guilty)

to parties of `oppressed` Dalits, Bahujan Samaj Party(whose party workers would physically evict elderly middle class couples and forcibly occupy their homes in Agra during Mayawatis previous stint as CM)

to the lower-caste/Muslim party Samajwadi party(whose Muslim MP recently kidnapped a married Hindu woman and performed forcible nikkah with her)

to Congress party-Muslim parties combination( communal riots and curfew in some inner cities had been a regular feature in some cities until some years ago, communal riots being an instrument to embarrass political opponents within ones own party-the Cong itself).

VHP(unlike the RSS) is a very late entrant to this scene. It is NOT in India`s interest and it no longer `works` to discuss only the VHP or Hindutva organisations in this context, but many self-defined secular Indians are slow to accept this.

DSouza for example, by showing his heels ( don`t know if it had to do with my relating on his board my experience of public intimidation by Communist Party of India(Marxist) in Kerala), demonstrates that even the self-defined `secular` journalists either donot have the honesty or the intellectual werewithal to face up to the WHOLE reality in India`s interests or they do so out of a mistaken and criminal(in my view) belief that any such objectivity plays into Hindutva-vadis hands.

OK that was not Samajwadi party, it was Rashtriya Janata Dal`s Member of Parliament, (Laloo Yadav`s party) Shahabuddin who kidnapped the married Hindu woman Kanchan Mishra.

It was the Samajwadi Party Chief Minister(Mulayam Singh Yadav who was later India`s Defence Minister) who was reputed to order kidnappings even as CM. Why? This is the way his party collects funds for fighting elections, the New York Times reported in the early nineties that it required approx two kidnappings to provde funds for each contested UP Assembly seat.

Sadna,
Thanks for your clear and thoughtful answers. Who are the leaders or parties that you think might lead India to a more constructive and tolerant agenda?

I was so angry when I read Dilip D`Souza`s account of the VHP mob harrassing and attacking the largely female peace protesters...is there any sort of public debate/dialogue/address of this kind of behavior on mainstream media or community or university venues?

Am I the only person who is disturbed by the missing ``a`` in Gujarat in the title of this piece? And, unfortunately, in some posts I am too mannerly to point out? Or could it be geographic confusion on the part of some, there indeed being a Gujrat, though uss paar?

Chowk staff...please.

veeresh #24
I didnot write any post sadna#22

Hello Sadna # 22 . . . the whole issue is to remind Mr Parthasarthy to take his job seriously but advise him not to take himself too seriously . . . ``Hindu veg`` as different from ``veg`` in airline speak on special meals usually means vegetarian food that does not contain any meat, poultry, fish, derivatives thereof because ``Asian veg`` often contains these, and often Hindu veg may not contain roots/stuff that grows under the ground and doubtful veg like brinjals . . . and as the fear of mad cow/meat/poultry products begins hitting more and more air travellers worldwide, this seems to be forming an increasingly opted for option with a lot of non-Hindu passengers too and increasingly on non-India routes . . . one of the reasons could also be that ``specials`` tend to be fresh as well as made better while ``standard`` non-veg/veg options still taste like assembly line mush.

That was all.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Gujrat needs divinne intervention of the human variety.

Ras

re: veeresh

//Reportage on why more and more airline passengers of all sorts are ordering ``Hindu veg`` while flying, India and abroad, and inferences therein. //

just curious...what`s Hindu veg? In fact, what`s this whole issue?

Thanks!~

Thank you for your views Parthasarthy B, now would you, again on behalf of your Court of God, consider similar articles on . . .


a) Reportage on Catholic deaths in violence in Ireland on behalf of Indian Catholics . . . and/or . . . reportage on Protestant deaths in violence in Ireland on behalf of Indian Protestants.

b) Reportage on Israeli and American atrocities in Angola on behalf of Indian Jews and Malayalees.

c) Reportage on Saudi atrocities towards Muslim Hajj visitors from India on behalf of Indian Muslims.

d) Reportage on US, Canadian, Russian and Japanese joint atrocities towards the Innuit Race on behalf of all the indigent people of India, especially genetically linked people from Ladakh/Gilgit.

e) Reportage on Japanese atrocities towards the Ai-noos of Hokkaido on behalf of all animists in India, especially genetically linked Nagas.

f) Reportage on British & American media selective tirades against ``Bobby`` Mugabe while ignoring De Beers, on behalf of suffering diamond workers of Surat.

g) Reportage on demographic break-up by religion and community of soldiers who died on duty in/for India, as against similar break-up for soldiers who died on duty for/in Pakistan, and any inferences therein.

h) Reportage on why Indian motoring media tends to glorify foreign automobiles while ignoring or bad-mouthing Indian makes/models.

i) Reportage on why more and more airline passengers of all sorts are ordering ``Hindu veg`` while flying, India and abroad, and inferences therein.

j) Reportage on atrocities committed against Catholic Basque independence seeking victimised people of Spain/France on behalf of all Catholics in India.

Please frgive me if I have left out Baluchis.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

#17 by Tipu

What the hell are you talking about ? I am not justifying what happened in Gujrat. All I am saying is that keep it in perspective. Anyway there are not too many non muslims that are left in Pakistan whose asses can be kicked anyway.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

What happened in Gujrat was appalling and disheartening - both Godhra and Post Godhra. However, I do find it intriguing that post Godhra is termed as Progrom or Ethnic Cleansing Campaign. What Language Inflation. Hindus who were 32% in Pakistan and were brought down to less than 2%,that was ethnic Cleansing. Hindus who were 15% in Bangladesh and Kashmir and have been brought down to less than 5% in BD and nearly zero in Kashmir Valley - that is a Progrom and Ethnic Cleansing. We have to look at what happened in Gujrat as an aberration. If a definite Progrom was in place then Muslims would be at the Gujrat Pakistan Border - trying to get into Pakistan. I do not think that there has been a single case of a Muslim leaving Gujarat to go to the ``land of the pure``

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

A small clarification :

By `MEDIA`, I refer ONLY to the Gujarati press ( Gujarat Smachar, etc.), which were squarely criticised by the Editors Guild and PCI.

NOT the main stream media - which by most accounts did an excellent job at unbiased reporting, and by and large brought down the numbers of those killed.

Brat you write ``we need more balanced Indian viewpoints on Chowk. ``
Amen:
Let the mice
(i.e. Indian and Pakistani ``normal people`` like you and, I hope, me)
play
While the cat
(i.e. the jays and arjuns from the saffron side, the waqars from the green side)
is away
And Before Chowk returns
To its usual dull hindu-muslim heartburns.

At least, that is what I say.

Samina #9
``Does anyone seeing this state of breakdown being repaired? Is this a priority of the current Indian leadership?``

No it isn`t a priority, IMO. The reason is the current Indian leadership of all shades of the political spectrum is itself a beneficiary of this state of breakdown.

There was for example, rare unanimity among MPs and leaders of ALL parties in rejecting Election Commission recommendations for preventing criminals or lawbreakers from contesting elections. My remarks on Dsouza`s board and the John Doe board were also in this context.

As things stand presently, I don`t trust either the BJP or the Cong leadership to get their priorities right, and I meant that even the Indian left too gives more priority to its own ideology than to meaningful constructive contributions to solutions to real problems facing India, particularly the economy, the breakdowns of law and order machinery or violations in the secular spirit of the Indian constitution from any religious quarter.

Politicians are more interested in winning their ideological turf battles than in delivering solutions and many ordinary Indians also seem to lose their sense of priority thinking politics is a spectator sport with no connection with the problems in their real lives.

So a Mumbaikar may care more for leaders who promise them Marathi pride than question how Marathi pride can coexist with inadequate public sanitation, or fault these leaders for not tackling the underworld extortionists who turn up at his shop to ask for hafta or to the proliferation of slums he sees in his neighbourhood.

A VHP grassroots member for example would rather shout slogans to press for a Ram temple than shout slogans for pragmatic and good governance so that his younger brother(for example) can find a good job. If roused up enough, he will do something illegal, and his leader can him as willing cannon fodder to get reelected. His younger brother is still unemployed, but hey at least there is the comforting brotherhood of ideology and his leader is in power.

Like many Indians in recent times, I am forced to wonder who or what is going to lead my country safely out of this morass of meaningless ideologies, right and left, which offer no real solutions, and serve only to acerbate the real problems that we face.

Shouldn`t Mr Parthsarathy let ``god`` do his own job and desist for writing judgements on ``god`s`` behalf?

Looking at the silver lining that is believed to come with every cloud...the rest of India did not go up in communal flames when the Gujrat pogroms took place. And there are people like Parthasarathy around. The majority of Indians are, I think, appalled like Parthasarathy at what happened, and not gleeful or who condone these massacres as a justified result of the attack on the Godhra train by muslim nuts. This is my guess based on various indications, although I have never been to India for more than a couple of days, but I do know a bit about human nature, I think.

If you start compiling the different points of view around the various issues circulating the the rise of a rightwing government, you`d come to the conclusion that the writer has; an apparatus has developed in which innocent people regardless of what religion they are, (altho I am beg. to believe that the status of Muslims in India isnt as easily determined as some would claim) are being victimized by extremist groups while the normal functions of this govt whose job it is to protect its citizens has been severely compromised. Does anyone seeing this state of breakdown being repaired? Is this a priority of the current Indian leadership?

Hi Umer # 6 . . . you are correct! Spoken like an indian, if I may add?

cheers/veeresh

Look people,

I gotta agree with Harimau. India is a secular country to the max. It kills everyone: Sikhs, Muslims, Christians, Hindus... it doesn`t discriminate.

Ha ha. Couldn`t resist.

Hey, here`s another joke: What do you a call a country with a population problem?

The biggest Democracy in the world.

Boom boom!

Umer M

lalitvanshaj: well said. I`ve been looking for answers, and I don`t know them. I heard similar things from people who live in India (my relatives). Things to the effect that Hindus mobs did not `act`, but they did `react`.

And as you say, there are extremists, and die hard fanatics on both sides, but both sides need to be objective and start putting out fires rather than continuing the...`but you did it first`.

Hope to hear more from you, we need more balanced Indian viewpoints on Chowk.

Great Article, Partha! Think about the below....

`` Will the criminals of the Post-Godhra carnage - of all hues - including rapists, looters and horrific murderers - be allowed to continue to roam freely,.... ``

But before that, will the criminals of the Godhra Train Burning Carnage continue to roam free? It sparked the whole thing, & yet, one by one; under political pressure; each of the accused is being let out...if it is any consolation to you, pls. know that the 28 accused Hindus for the Best Bakery burning in Manjalpur, Baroda post-Godhra are still in jail...

`` Why did the ELECTION COMMISSION and the SURPREME COURT allowing such blatant communal campaigning? ``

Agree absolutely...the EC & Supreme should have banned all Congress candidates for getting the advt. published by the Maulavis for Muslims to vote for Cong...not that it would hv made much of a difference, though:-)

`` Accused 1st - RELIGION : (the supporters of the concept of God - including communal parties) for perpetually creating the impression that their religion was being threatened by the other``

Agree again, all Muslim leadership should be accused for constantly shouting ``Islam Khatre main hai`` all over the world for the past 1400+
yrs...

``Accused 2nd - The EDUCATION system :.... for having `demonised` muslims ``

....agree again, & surely; the same applies to Madrassas for preaching jihadi hatred against non-Muslims too?

``Accused 3rd - The MEDIA : for having carried the message of lies and hate from the obnoxious, perverted mind to the ordinary man, and for inciting mobs into a killing frenzy. ``

Oh, so when repoting is from the burning ghettos, it is `balanced`, but reporting on the burning train becomes `inciting mobs into killing frenzy`...this great distinction would have of course nothing to do with the victims` religion; or your pseudo-secular beliefs, surely?

`` Accused 5 th : The LEGAL system of the country : for taking a lenient view of communal activities in our country, including communal politics and communal organisations and the hatred-spreading media. ``

Especially the media for its `All Gujaratis are murderors stance``...have you noticed that after the slap the Media & the Pseuds got in the elections, they`ve dropped Gujarat-bashing like a hot potato? The TRPs were suffering, I guess...

& this from the front page of the `Dawn` today...

``...Elsewhere in Kashmir, militants allegedly burnt down 45 houses belonging to Hindus in Rajouri district, 150km from Jammu, police said.
Most of the houses were empty as the residents had fled following a recent attack on their village, a police official said...``

Now, the Dawn of course is a much more Secular newspaper - The same story is also carried in that Flagship of Psedo-secularism, the Times of India, where the word `Hindu` has been replaced by the words `Particular Community`..as if it were a community of Martians!...But surely, Partha; you & likes of you will say nothing just as you have said nothing for the past 14 yrs. while Kashmir was Ethnically Cleansed of the Hindus....& that too, I am sure has nothing to do again with the religion of the victims or your pseudo-sec beliefs....

It is the biased & Pseudo-Secs like the TOI & Partha that give fodder to the Fundamentalists like Togadia....both are justifiers of Jinnah`s 2 nation theory!

Post-Godhra was wrong...but Godhra was wrong too...both were expressions of religious intolerence of the most extreme kind, but there is a need for even-handedness : Criticising one & not even mentioning the other is Pseudo & Criminal !

Ref Tipu #1

[So some 2,500 killings were a `disturbance` while 59 were a `carnage!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!]

From 1,200, the number of dead has gone to 2,000 and now 2,500. In the case of the WTC, the number of dead came down from an estimate of 4,800 to nearly 2900. But in the case of Gujarat, the number of dead keeps going up.

The second things is that all these dead are classified as Muslims. We all know that Hindus also died in the `disturbances` and were made homeless too. Unless, like Prophet Muhammad`s parents people become Muslims posthumously, this is a bit hard to digest.

Just like the number of dead in Kashmir bandied around has now gone up to 90,000 and the unstated assumption is that all of them were Muslims despite the murders of Sikhs, Hindus, Buddhists and Muslims. Just like the unstated assumption that all of these died at the hands of the Indian Army whereas a large number was killed by Islamic militants.

Try to keep an objective perspective.

very philosophic but can such intellectual extravaganza redeem the minority community which was subjected to state terrorism in collusion with thugs of Sang Parivar/ BJP. God only knows the extent of the death and destruction cuased among the defenceless minority though one would sympathize with any genuine sufferers even among the majority. The facade of Indian secularism has fooled the west admirably despite the fact that minorities like Muslims, Christains and Sikhs experience terrorism/ killing and loss of honour and property, quite frequently, at the hands of evil elements dominating the Indian society and state. Lately such elements are assured of state patronage rendering PM vajpaee a parody of his own earleir reputation.
Indians must realize that a Hindu India would be like Nazi-Germany. The good ones must rise against such vicious groups who are out to undo India finally like the Soviet Union, despite ite nuclear pretensions while spreading inhuman poverty among the low-castes who are treated as srtray dogs in the society.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts