Gujrat - The Verdict Of God

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very philosophic but can such intellectual extravaganza redeem the minority community which was subjected to state terrorism in collusion with thugs of Sang Parivar/ BJP. God only knows the extent of the death and destruction cuased among the defenceless minority though one would sympathize with any genuine sufferers even among the majority. The facade of Indian secularism has fooled the west admirably despite the fact that minorities like Muslims, Christains and Sikhs experience terrorism/ killing and loss of honour and property, quite frequently, at the hands of evil elements dominating the Indian society and state. Lately such elements are assured of state patronage rendering PM vajpaee a parody of his own earleir reputation.
Indians must realize that a Hindu India would be like Nazi-Germany. The good ones must rise against such vicious groups who are out to undo India finally like the Soviet Union, despite ite nuclear pretensions while spreading inhuman poverty among the low-castes who are treated as srtray dogs in the society.

Ref Tipu #1

[So some 2,500 killings were a `disturbance` while 59 were a `carnage!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!]

From 1,200, the number of dead has gone to 2,000 and now 2,500. In the case of the WTC, the number of dead came down from an estimate of 4,800 to nearly 2900. But in the case of Gujarat, the number of dead keeps going up.

The second things is that all these dead are classified as Muslims. We all know that Hindus also died in the `disturbances` and were made homeless too. Unless, like Prophet Muhammad`s parents people become Muslims posthumously, this is a bit hard to digest.

Just like the number of dead in Kashmir bandied around has now gone up to 90,000 and the unstated assumption is that all of them were Muslims despite the murders of Sikhs, Hindus, Buddhists and Muslims. Just like the unstated assumption that all of these died at the hands of the Indian Army whereas a large number was killed by Islamic militants.

Try to keep an objective perspective.

Great Article, Partha! Think about the below....

`` Will the criminals of the Post-Godhra carnage - of all hues - including rapists, looters and horrific murderers - be allowed to continue to roam freely,.... ``

But before that, will the criminals of the Godhra Train Burning Carnage continue to roam free? It sparked the whole thing, & yet, one by one; under political pressure; each of the accused is being let out...if it is any consolation to you, pls. know that the 28 accused Hindus for the Best Bakery burning in Manjalpur, Baroda post-Godhra are still in jail...

`` Why did the ELECTION COMMISSION and the SURPREME COURT allowing such blatant communal campaigning? ``

Agree absolutely...the EC & Supreme should have banned all Congress candidates for getting the advt. published by the Maulavis for Muslims to vote for Cong...not that it would hv made much of a difference, though:-)

`` Accused 1st - RELIGION : (the supporters of the concept of God - including communal parties) for perpetually creating the impression that their religion was being threatened by the other``

Agree again, all Muslim leadership should be accused for constantly shouting ``Islam Khatre main hai`` all over the world for the past 1400+
yrs...

``Accused 2nd - The EDUCATION system :.... for having `demonised` muslims ``

....agree again, & surely; the same applies to Madrassas for preaching jihadi hatred against non-Muslims too?

``Accused 3rd - The MEDIA : for having carried the message of lies and hate from the obnoxious, perverted mind to the ordinary man, and for inciting mobs into a killing frenzy. ``

Oh, so when repoting is from the burning ghettos, it is `balanced`, but reporting on the burning train becomes `inciting mobs into killing frenzy`...this great distinction would have of course nothing to do with the victims` religion; or your pseudo-secular beliefs, surely?

`` Accused 5 th : The LEGAL system of the country : for taking a lenient view of communal activities in our country, including communal politics and communal organisations and the hatred-spreading media. ``

Especially the media for its `All Gujaratis are murderors stance``...have you noticed that after the slap the Media & the Pseuds got in the elections, they`ve dropped Gujarat-bashing like a hot potato? The TRPs were suffering, I guess...

& this from the front page of the `Dawn` today...

``...Elsewhere in Kashmir, militants allegedly burnt down 45 houses belonging to Hindus in Rajouri district, 150km from Jammu, police said.
Most of the houses were empty as the residents had fled following a recent attack on their village, a police official said...``

Now, the Dawn of course is a much more Secular newspaper - The same story is also carried in that Flagship of Psedo-secularism, the Times of India, where the word `Hindu` has been replaced by the words `Particular Community`..as if it were a community of Martians!...But surely, Partha; you & likes of you will say nothing just as you have said nothing for the past 14 yrs. while Kashmir was Ethnically Cleansed of the Hindus....& that too, I am sure has nothing to do again with the religion of the victims or your pseudo-sec beliefs....

It is the biased & Pseudo-Secs like the TOI & Partha that give fodder to the Fundamentalists like Togadia....both are justifiers of Jinnah`s 2 nation theory!

Post-Godhra was wrong...but Godhra was wrong too...both were expressions of religious intolerence of the most extreme kind, but there is a need for even-handedness : Criticising one & not even mentioning the other is Pseudo & Criminal !

lalitvanshaj: well said. I`ve been looking for answers, and I don`t know them. I heard similar things from people who live in India (my relatives). Things to the effect that Hindus mobs did not `act`, but they did `react`.

And as you say, there are extremists, and die hard fanatics on both sides, but both sides need to be objective and start putting out fires rather than continuing the...`but you did it first`.

Hope to hear more from you, we need more balanced Indian viewpoints on Chowk.

Look people,

I gotta agree with Harimau. India is a secular country to the max. It kills everyone: Sikhs, Muslims, Christians, Hindus... it doesn`t discriminate.

Ha ha. Couldn`t resist.

Hey, here`s another joke: What do you a call a country with a population problem?

The biggest Democracy in the world.

Boom boom!

Umer M

Hi Umer # 6 . . . you are correct! Spoken like an indian, if I may add?

cheers/veeresh

If you start compiling the different points of view around the various issues circulating the the rise of a rightwing government, you`d come to the conclusion that the writer has; an apparatus has developed in which innocent people regardless of what religion they are, (altho I am beg. to believe that the status of Muslims in India isnt as easily determined as some would claim) are being victimized by extremist groups while the normal functions of this govt whose job it is to protect its citizens has been severely compromised. Does anyone seeing this state of breakdown being repaired? Is this a priority of the current Indian leadership?

Looking at the silver lining that is believed to come with every cloud...the rest of India did not go up in communal flames when the Gujrat pogroms took place. And there are people like Parthasarathy around. The majority of Indians are, I think, appalled like Parthasarathy at what happened, and not gleeful or who condone these massacres as a justified result of the attack on the Godhra train by muslim nuts. This is my guess based on various indications, although I have never been to India for more than a couple of days, but I do know a bit about human nature, I think.

Shouldn`t Mr Parthsarathy let ``god`` do his own job and desist for writing judgements on ``god`s`` behalf?

Samina #9
``Does anyone seeing this state of breakdown being repaired? Is this a priority of the current Indian leadership?``

No it isn`t a priority, IMO. The reason is the current Indian leadership of all shades of the political spectrum is itself a beneficiary of this state of breakdown.

There was for example, rare unanimity among MPs and leaders of ALL parties in rejecting Election Commission recommendations for preventing criminals or lawbreakers from contesting elections. My remarks on Dsouza`s board and the John Doe board were also in this context.

As things stand presently, I don`t trust either the BJP or the Cong leadership to get their priorities right, and I meant that even the Indian left too gives more priority to its own ideology than to meaningful constructive contributions to solutions to real problems facing India, particularly the economy, the breakdowns of law and order machinery or violations in the secular spirit of the Indian constitution from any religious quarter.

Politicians are more interested in winning their ideological turf battles than in delivering solutions and many ordinary Indians also seem to lose their sense of priority thinking politics is a spectator sport with no connection with the problems in their real lives.

So a Mumbaikar may care more for leaders who promise them Marathi pride than question how Marathi pride can coexist with inadequate public sanitation, or fault these leaders for not tackling the underworld extortionists who turn up at his shop to ask for hafta or to the proliferation of slums he sees in his neighbourhood.

A VHP grassroots member for example would rather shout slogans to press for a Ram temple than shout slogans for pragmatic and good governance so that his younger brother(for example) can find a good job. If roused up enough, he will do something illegal, and his leader can him as willing cannon fodder to get reelected. His younger brother is still unemployed, but hey at least there is the comforting brotherhood of ideology and his leader is in power.

Like many Indians in recent times, I am forced to wonder who or what is going to lead my country safely out of this morass of meaningless ideologies, right and left, which offer no real solutions, and serve only to acerbate the real problems that we face.

Brat you write ``we need more balanced Indian viewpoints on Chowk. ``
Amen:
Let the mice
(i.e. Indian and Pakistani ``normal people`` like you and, I hope, me)
play
While the cat
(i.e. the jays and arjuns from the saffron side, the waqars from the green side)
is away
And Before Chowk returns
To its usual dull hindu-muslim heartburns.

At least, that is what I say.

A small clarification :

By `MEDIA`, I refer ONLY to the Gujarati press ( Gujarat Smachar, etc.), which were squarely criticised by the Editors Guild and PCI.

NOT the main stream media - which by most accounts did an excellent job at unbiased reporting, and by and large brought down the numbers of those killed.

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What happened in Gujrat was appalling and disheartening - both Godhra and Post Godhra. However, I do find it intriguing that post Godhra is termed as Progrom or Ethnic Cleansing Campaign. What Language Inflation. Hindus who were 32% in Pakistan and were brought down to less than 2%,that was ethnic Cleansing. Hindus who were 15% in Bangladesh and Kashmir and have been brought down to less than 5% in BD and nearly zero in Kashmir Valley - that is a Progrom and Ethnic Cleansing. We have to look at what happened in Gujrat as an aberration. If a definite Progrom was in place then Muslims would be at the Gujrat Pakistan Border - trying to get into Pakistan. I do not think that there has been a single case of a Muslim leaving Gujarat to go to the ``land of the pure``