Documentarians Hope to Enlighten Americans about Prophet

#126 by Ralph on December 27, 2002 1:49pm PT

And how would you know that? The Kashmiris came and told you? Ha

Well at least a few kashmiris did tell me that. I happened to visit Kashmir in 1985 for a few weeks. Almost whereever we went they would refer people(ie tourists) as coming from India.
Nearly a decade later I studied in a college in Bangalore where we had nearly 300 Kashmiri students, mostly muslims but a few pandits too. Four years of interaction with them left us (both hindu as well as muslims) with a reasonable idea that they more or less rejected the present political arrangement. They consider the orignal treaty that India signed with Kahsmir (which gave them a great deal of autonomy to them to manage their affairs)as the only way they will accept union with India. They are ambivalent about Pakistan(they wish it was a better place and more just) but they did not demonise it like most Indians do. A great many of them did not mind kashmir going with pakistan in case the orignal agreements were not honoured.

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Ummm, and you O Intelligent One would love to talk about UN resolutions of 1948 but
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You people are interested in real estate
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Your people killed Abdul Ghani Bhatt
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If they want to be independent of you, that is their problem and yours, not ours.
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``Retard is one who compares even his shit with what the pakistani shat``

You`re being way too metaphysical for me here

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Looks like you have spent the holidays in a druken binge or else your state of mind is a natrual retarded state.

First I did not bring up the UN resulution you did and when I commented on it I did not make any opinon on it. Now you are attrubuting it to me. Now is that clever?? may be 5 year school kids will regard it so or else people who are a bit retarded.

Lastly your whole arguments seem to be only on what the pakistanis did or did not (there is no reasoning with the actual facts or opinoins of the parties involved ie the Kashmiris.) do so my last comment still stands.

Fact briefly are that Sheik Abdullah the then commonly accepted leader of kashmiri people accepted union with India mainly on two considerations. He thought that kashmiris had a better future with India (which included Hindus and others ) and the rights of muslim kashmiris would be protected by having a Union with India but having a great deal of Autonomy (in all areas except foregin affairs, Defence and currency). Obviously he kept two points in mind when he decided to go with India. one pressures one from the Hindu monarch second was the possibility of (what he then smart solution)keeping the unique kashmiri identity intact (because assimiliation with pakistan may be without conditions and he could attach conditions if he acceded to India)
Thus the union with kashmir was attached with some conditions to be met ie a great deal of regional Autonomy. India agreed to these condtions at that time and even for a period of time Nehru wanted to come up with his side of the bargain. However this did not materialise on the ground. Paksitan occupied a part of kashmir and the Indian govt took this as a licence to shy away from the agreed points. Subsequently the various govts while not deniying the agreements have tried to subvert these promises and thus the disenchantment of kashmiris.
Pakistan did exploit this disenchantment just like India did in Bangladesh.

So here you have two govts who suppressed people and in both countries they refuse to aknowledge the wrong and correct the mistakes.
In pakistan there is a bleated recognition of the wrongs done in bangladesh by a small section of people. India too a similar view is taking place in some of the leadership and is clearly reflected in a acknowledgement in parts of the media and people who influnce policy makers.

I wonder if your retarded mind will be able to see the truth.

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I, like the Indian government, am all for negotiations as long as they are within the parameters of the Indian constitution.
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The Indian Constituion would of course mean honouring the agreements signed by the leaders and of course honouring the wishes of people. and adhering to the various articles like A 370 etc.

I have a fair idea that this is not your take on the constitution.

For you it is only what pakistanis did and how to show them up.

#127 by ssdhillon on December 27, 2002 7:51pm PT
#126 by Ralph on December 27, 2002 1:49pm PT

Spare me the pity. Intresting views you guys have... if any one doesnt agree with you he is destined for Guantanamo Bay.

You worry about the sucide squads of Bal Thakakery.

great democrats showing their feathers...

Perhaps you could try some intelligent conversation some time..

Samina,

PS. Soz I forgot to mention, check out the charity commision UK:
http://www.charity-commission.gov.uk/

Do a search on the registered charities and speak to them. Sometime, however, the best info comes from the small unregistered charities but there is a chance of bias.

Sorry for the late post.

Umer M.

Arjun, Dhilla,

Bwa hahaha haaaarrrr - cough cough - har har. Someone`s been sniffing turmeric for too long. Wait, wait, wait, you used the word `tried`. What makes you think it`s an event of the past. Number 2, just how do you know the exact number of this raggy bunch anyway? I think you`re trying to evade the issue.

Now, for your next statement, A$$ munch, I want you to look at your ugly, hateful self in the mirror without cracking it and say the following:

In UK are the following ethnic minority communities:

Kurds
Turks
Pakistanis
Indians
Bangladeshis
Sudanese
Eriterians
Greeks
Arab group
Somalians
The Eastern Europeans
Africans - Nigerians, Ghanans
Caribbean - West Indies, Jamaicans, Trinidad
Chinese
Hong Kong
Koreans
Sri Lankans
Nepalese

And Pakis are the most backward group? Are you out of your fcuking mind? Define backwards to me? Show me the prison reports. Go on, shabaash, get one of your chums to do a little search. Go on, fork out a little report from that black suit case of yours which you`re always carrying around. Go on batche, do a little work on the BJP search engine and come out with an Internet address. Or could it be that you’re just talking out of your ar$e.

And this next one, oh my, this just has to be the best one. Some Falana guy from falana street posted something falana about Pakis. Everyone can do statistics. I mean, Did you know that a bag of sugar has 0% fat but it still doesn’t mean you don’t put on the pounds? Hunh? And did you know that in the year 1996, Pakistani boys came out at the top of their school leagues? Hum? Hum?

Also, if you stop your engines, you`ll notice that dhillon mentioned and focused upon UK Muslims. It is separate issue from being a a Pak or a Banger. There are 2 million Muslims in UK. Now why don’t you give me the number of Muslims (not Pakistanis but Muslims) in UK who have been sent to Guantanamo Bay? While you’re at it, do us a little statistic or send us an internet addy. I`ll help you out by naming you three: Sheikh Omar and the two d!icks from Tipton. You can do the rest.

Now personally speaking, I don’t give a monkeys about the BNP thing because the people who done the deal with the devil were an absolute minority and in no way reflect the majority. I think we all know that but going by your warped sense of perspective and imagination, I`d probably end up leaving the country. This is what I mean when I talk of democracies and when I talk of the British trying to drag the Raj into civility. Give people like Arjun and dhillon a little taste of power and they`ll start using your ethnic information to put you down.

Dhillon, I can be bothered to reply. There is a possibility that what I wrote was misunderstood by you but I would much rather like to think that you are thick.

Under the British law, you can be done for witholding terrorism related information so let me just say this that I know nothing. But wouldn’t you say that it`s entirely possible that there are Indian citizens (of the Non-Muslim persuasion) sponsering terrorist/freedom (call it what you must) movements inside India or even other parts of the world ):-) Are you that naïve to think so otherwise. ):-)

Umer M.

PS. I couldn’t think of a captain of a losing team (Oh and Nasser Hussain is not a Muslim terrorist and there are three more Muslim players who`ve played for England btw) but for now I`ll suffice with that greasy immigrant, Lord Nazir. He happens to be a Paki.

Samina,

As AAnsari said, English/Urdu newspapers and meeting the right people at the right time.

Umer M.

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#128 by UmerMurtaza on December 28, 2002 7:54am PT

So the British muslims in Guantanamo bay were fighting against racism at home. Sheikh Omar made a career out of terror to protest the BNP!!!

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Fellas, I think you should concern yourselves with the Hindu-Sikh-British National Party alliance occuring in UK where the
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So because Sikh and hindu youth did not join in the rioting they are Nazis!!!.

As far as racism by the right wing groups....that exists everywhere. Only UK muslims are fighting it by burning their own cities. You know very well what the truth is....There are a ton of unemployed muslim youth hanging around. They have been brought up on a steady diet of Jehadi propoganda. These goons are no better than the racist right wing thugs.

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. Now what do you suggest they do? Turn the cheek and sit down and do a Satyagraha.
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Aha ``Muslims brave , rest cowards. I muslim = 10 non-muslims`` argument. Stop kidding yourself that muslims are the only ones doing something against racist bias. One the other hand these guys only justify the anti-immigration policies of the right wing. Here in the US too every immigrant group had to face bias(Irish, Polish, Italaian and now Asians). The worst thing you can do is play into the hands of the right wingers.......burn down your own cities.

UK muslims are lucky that the politics in England is very liberal. Imagine an immigrant group doing this in the US. They would be in deep shit.

UmerM,

Where can I get info on these events in the UK?

Much appreciated,

Is it just me or do some of us practise double standards. When Mushy talks of the plight of the minorities in India, he is told to mind his own business and clean the $hit in his own yard. And that`s a fair comment...

But then we have guys like Ralphy and dhillon popping their heads to score a few brownies. Fellas, I think you should concern yourselves with the Hindu-Sikh-British National Party alliance occuring in UK where the hateful minorities are willing to group with their Nazi fascists enemies. And why? Just so that they may kick out the Muslims. Oh, what happened? Cat got your tongues?

As for the town trashing, you might as well include the Southall riots during the 80s by the Sikhs and Hindus against the Nazis. Because I`m sure it doesn`t matter to you that they were protecting their homes from the Nazis, just like the Pakis were protecting their own homes and retaliating to racism. Oh but wait, I forget that people like dhillon are hate-filled corrupted little perverts who have some twisted agenda to fulfill.

You have no idea what it feels to be part of a racist attack. Such attacks are a common place in the Northern areas such as Leeds and Burnley. I`ve seen one of my best friends become a cripple because he was `shit skinned`. When such things are an everyday event and no one seems to help the process and they didn`t have enough cheeks to turn the other way (to quote from Ralph), then the final option, for them, was to slap their opponents in place. I don`t like what happened but I can understand the frustration they must have felt. As for the benefits, in those areas, they`re aren`t any benefits. There was no functional economy or jobs. No politician or police was helping the place out. That`s why the hatred had been simmering for some time and recently, three councillors from the BNP were chosen. So who`s to blame?

To give an example, it was widely broadcast that Pakistani youths had designated certain areas as No-White-Man-zones. Everyone went ape $hit and for the right reasons. But no newspaper ever mentioned that this was in retaliation to the racist White youths initiating this activity in the first place. the final picture was a very biased one. Now what do you suggest they do? Turn the cheek and sit down and do a Satyagraha.

Sometimes I`m so grateful that the English systematically finished off the Mughals and tried dragging the Raj into civility. Alas, they failed on many fronts. Give power to people like Dhillon and see what happens...well it`s happening right now in certain parts of the world isn`t it.

Go enlighten the cowardly Middle Class families all around the world who are offering terrorist support to the Bharati Janta Pu$$ies. You concern yourselves with your scum and we`ll see to ours.

Umer M

#126 by Ralph
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Ali87 doesnt have to be from Pakistan. UK and Michigan are giving Pakistan a run for its money as new centers of Islamic backwardness.
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I think UK muslims can give everybody else a run for their money. After all the benefits of growing up in the UK.......these guys end up in Guantanamo Bay. Not to mention rioting Pakistani and Bangladeshi youth destroying their own towns in the UK.

stuka #125

Ali87 doesnt have to be from Pakistan. UK and Michigan are giving Pakistan a run for its money as new centers of Islamic backwardness.

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Stuka:

Retarded who doesnt even reads the posts properly or cant digest the fact that Im not from pakistan.

How the hell do I know where you`re from? You expect me to believe that you are just a 3rd party neutral with views that just happen to coincide with the Paki establishment? Right!!!

``Retarded one who just jumps to what Kofi Annan said or did not say but disregards what is belived all over the world that it is a disputed territory. The UN resolutions may apply or not what is a fact is that the majority kashmiris dont want to stay with India on the present terms. ``

And how would you know that? The Kashmiris came and told you? Ha!! Please don`t even give me the bull abt Pak being concerned about the welfare of Kashmiri Muslims. Your people killed Abdul Ghani Bhatt when he started talking about negotiations with Indian government. His own son believes that. You people are interested in real estate, plain and simple. As the Butcher of Bangladesh Tikka Khan said, `` I am interested in the land and not the people`` (Pls read the latest issue of Defence Journal, a Paki military magazine for reference. Your attitude is the same for the Kashmiris that it was for Bengalis.

``And what will you say when Mufti Mohhammed Sayeed starts negotiating with the militants and asking for political negotiations just like the Farook Abdullah of National Conference asked. ``

I, like the Indian government, am all for negotiations as long as they are within the parameters of the Indian constitution.

Retard is one who belives he is right regardless of all evidence available and grasps the straws of what Kofi said or not said about UN resolutins.

Ummm, and you O Intelligent One would love to talk about UN resolutions of 1948 but would disregard the fact that NOT ONE COUNTRY outside of Pakistan (which being an interested party does not count) has called for their implementation in the past 20 years. Kofi Annan represents the very UN you keep parroting about.

``Retard is one who cant even take the opinon of migrant Mirpuris(from kashmir across the border)in UK who show no love for India while they would like to be independent of pakistan if possible they surely wouldnt like to go back to indian control. ``

Why the hell would we bother about Pakistani Kashmiris? If they want to be independent of you, that is their problem and yours, not ours. I am a descendant of West Punjabi refugees. Would my or my parents opinion count for what happens in Pakistani Punjab???

``Retard is one who compares even his shit with what the pakistani shat``

You`re being way too metaphysical for me here.

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#120 by stuka on December 27, 2002 7:30am PT
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Umm retard, democracy does mean rule of the majority. What you have in Pakistan is apartheid, with the minority Faujis
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Retarded who doesnt even reads the posts properly or cant digest the fact that Im not from pakistan.

Retarded one who just jumps to what Kofi Annan said or did not say but disregards what is belived all over the world that it is a disputed territory. The UN resolutions may apply or not what is a fact is that the majority kashmiris dont want to stay with India on the present terms.

And what will you say when Mufti Mohhammed Sayeed starts negotiating with the militants and asking for political negotiations just like the Farook Abdullah of National Conference asked.

Retard is one who belives he is right regardless of all evidence available and grasps the straws of what Kofi said or not said about UN resolutins.

Retard is one who cant even take the opinon of migrant Mirpuris(from kashmir across the border)in UK who show no love for India while they would like to be independent of pakistan if possible they surely wouldnt like to go back to indian control.

Retard is one who compares even his shit with what the pakistani shat.

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Ali87:

``The world is already smarter on the Bhramin talk..
Just see what the world has been saying on kashmir for 5 decades.. ``


LOL!! YES, PLEASE TELL ME WHAT THE WORLD HAS BEEN SAYING FOR 5 DECADES????

Kofi Annan told you guys to your face that the UN resolutions were not implementable. Compare the internation opinions on Kashmiri elections with the Pakistani elections.

Mufti Mohhamed Sayeed is a more legitimate ruler of Kashmir, compared to the Jamali led Lota government of Pakistan. At least the ruling National Conference in Kashmir was booted out by the will of the people, unlike the 98.5% referendum results of Mush.

You say:

``What we have in India is tokenism in the name of Democracy. Basically what it is Majority rule by force. ``

Umm retard, democracy does mean rule of the majority. What you have in Pakistan is apartheid, with the minority Faujis ruling it over the civillians and giving danda to your behinds when you create trouble.

#115 by nasah on December 25, 2002 1:57pm PT
#116 by hamidm2
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The ONLY incredible part to which I object is -- for heaven sake – WHY --5 times a day! -- why NOT -- once a week... for cryng out loud...
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````my quarrel is not with religion, it is with religiosity ````(hamidm)

exactly -- religiosity -- with its air of moronic superiority -- and stupid IMPOSITION upon others...

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Hmm.. like saying that you like Bread provided it is not baked
or saying `` I like dessert not the sweet in it``



Now lets see how the argument goes relogiusity wrong but religion is ok...

and you were talking about moronic... some thing....

what is the religion that you would like .......

some thing convinent.... ``Why not once a week`` why not once a year??

or why not lets worship what ever we like?? Hey the hindus are already doing it.. No worship timings.. No restrictions of where or what to worship it...

Only a few problems you are not comfortable with in that religoin

or why dont you try chirstianity.....

Shop for your salvation once a year.. good for the country as well as for the man.. convinent while bosting the economy..


Like you said that everyone should have right to their fantasies.. (the hindus perfected this until the mulsims came and spoiled their party)

The christians are trying to reach out to such salvation... Survivor salvation on prime time...
or salvation by once being against divorce and now for it.

by being racist earlier and now condemming racisim
or by intolerance of other religions and now peaching peace now
or by covering the legs of tables in case some one may be scandalised to free sex to now the learned wisdom of ``Teen age sex may not be a good Idea`` while teen agers can go about near naked all alone and still expected to restrict themselves..

You may not like various parts of religion or the moronic superiority that you enconuter but do you have any other better answer to it? You are free to not follow every thing as many dont but your consicence is against the logic of not following when you cant...

At least it is honest...

but would you also consider the honesty of those who follow what they can and ask for forgiveness for what they cant while at least beliveing that they will striving to be better....

Perhaps you should be honest enough to understand if there is no one to enforce or at least moral IMPOSITION upon others... there is nothing as the christians have discovered now..

Their present wealth is the only thing that prevents them being made fun of by the whole world.. some how wealth is suppossed to be the proof of all things correct..

````my quarrel is not with religion, it is with religiosity ````(hamidm)

exactly -- religiosity -- with its air of moronic superiority -- and stupid IMPOSITION upon others...

nasah

``The ONLY incredible part to which I object is -- for heaven sake – WHY --5 times a day! -- why NOT -- once a week... for cryng out loud``

.......... i understand your pain ......... it really doesn`t matter if you believe in the tooth fairy or a man who claims to be the son of god .... it is okay - everyone has a right to his or her fantasies of faith ......... but when religion begins to interfere with your life you have to draw the line somewhere ............my quarrel is not with religion, it is with religiosity .....

````Muhammad`s ``Night Journey,`` when the Qur`an says he went to heaven and entered the divine presence -- as historical facts.```` (Daniel Pipes in Jewish Times as quoted by Studebaker)

In the Alice`s Wonderland of world religions -- if Moses can part Red Sea -- at prime time TV -- so can Muhammad -- go on ``Night Journey`` - at prime time -- on a horse with a human head -- meet God -- and come back -- while the door chain of his house is still mving.

For incredible prophets (pbuh) -- all incredibles -- are perfectly credible history --

The ONLY incredible part to which I object is -- for heaven sake – WHY --5 times a day! -- why NOT -- once a week... for cryng out loud...

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.... i know, i know.......the american muslim is really excited about this ``positive`` and ``unbiased`` documentary about islam which is supposed to set the record straight with christians and jews and other unbelievers, misbelievers and infidels ......... but can you imagine pbs putting on a similar shamelessly biased infomercial about christianity or judaism ..........the attempt to whitewash and gloss over the most obvious defects and shortcomings with lame and fawning excuses was pathetic .......... it might have done more harm than good by providing more anti-muslim fodder to daniel pipes and the fox news ............

.......... only when muhammad and his sahaba are lampooned on saturday night live, like christ and moses have been many times, will islam be accepted as a normal mainstream religion .......... and that, i would like to see !

Sorry to see the article go off the main page - but perhaps the thread can continue elsewhere. I`ve only just now found the time to sit and write - the program on PBS was also watched by 5 of my American friends (with various prior views on Islam).
I think we need to look at the program with the intended viewer in mind: That the program was aimed squarely at the average American viewer (perhaps someone who may be a bit more aware, being PBS watchers) - and their questions about Islam. And the Islam PBS presented was a radically different picture from the distortions the media has focused on (in general).
This program, followed by the Frontline special the next day (and combined with the PBS documentary ``Islam, Empire of Faith``) makes for riveting viewing - according to Dave, my university classmate and neighbour who just happens to be one of those people who had believed the rantings of Falwell et al. Others who watched the program were Veronica (an African-American classmate who had converted to Islam three months ago), Sara, (a dancer extraordinaire) who had converted 4 years earlier, Jim who is a 60 year old ultra-conservative believer of Muslims as `terrorists`, and Marian (Dave`s daughter) - a very intelligent and precocious 13 year old who watched all three programs.
From the viewpoints of these five, PBS has succeeded admirably - all came away with a new awareness of Islam and the Prophet. All had questions - (and our discussions have gone on all week!)
They have interesting observations on some of the Chowk comments (which I brought up) - for example the views on secularism and in particular, the comment by Sameer that ``...Pakistan, Punjabi culture, India-Pakistan neighborly relations and Islam, in my humble opinion, can not win simultaneously.``
Would like to go more in depth, but I`ll wait and see whether this should go on another thread ...

#106 by hari on December 23, 2002 12:48pm PT

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Indians in north and indian in east , indians in west and indians in south may not have anything similar, you are right about that. what holds them together is principle of democracy

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Now hari you are drooling... Use your sleeve to wipe the forth...

If that is the reason why do you need permit to visit Arunachal Pardesh. And if democracy is the principle(dont know what you guys understand by it) why were the elections rigged in kashmir for decades. For decades the kashmiris were asking for self detrmination ie a choice to be Independent. or to remain with India or to go with pakistan...

Now where does democracy or lack of it in pakistan come into picture... Rather it says about the democracy as implemented by India in Kashmir..

READ MY POST AGAIN about what i say about various areas of India and wether all are held to gether by democracy or some by force.

now such subtle points go past you... Why?? because your whole thinking is blinded by the real or imagined precived humilation on the hands of muslims for centuries. You reserve only hatred of Muslims and in particlar of pakistan.
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Can a kashmiri hindu become pakistan`s prime minister?
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Why dont you ask your self if a muslim can become Prime minister of India? He is not getting your vote I can see that.

Have you forgetten how the representation of Sikhs has been reduced quitely over the last decade to limit it to their population percentage in the ARMY so your argument of merit also is just a lie.

What we have in India is tokenism in the name of Democracy. Basically what it is Majority rule by force. What else can explain how a criminal like ADVANI becomes the Home Minister and next time you vote for Vajpayee remember that he follows Sarvakar who first wrote the two nation theory.

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the world is getting much smarter on islamic double-talk.

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The world is already smarter on the Bhramin talk..
Just see what the world has been saying on kashmir for 5 decades..

Arjun -M

Give it up before you look ridiculous.


You no INS or State Dept.

No body takes you as there spokesman to read your post .


Who knows may be you r a code coolie yourself on About to expire Hib visa feeling lost to return back to unemployment & drudgery of Indian life .With superlative of worst in everything among the tabulation of nations of the world.Mere degree & Ph.D. does not produce infra structure .No roads no hospitals no medicines no transportation short of cattle carriage of Bus & train bogey .....list goes on

Bhagat free, now Sajjan: how politics bailed politicians out
http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=15385


Bhagat free, now Sajjan: how politics bailed politicians out


Cases filed after yrs, prosecution’s job tougher


Manoj Mitta






New Delhi, December 23: With the Delhi court exonerating Congress leader Sajjan Kumar today, all the six trials involving the alleged complicity of Congress leaders in the 1984 carnage have resulted in acquittals.

While three of those cases were against Sajjan Kumar, the other three were against his senior party colleague H K L Bhagat.





Besides, the police registered two carnage-related cases against another Congress leader, Jagdish Tytler, but those were dropped even before they reached the stage of trial.

None of the political cases was registered in 1984. The process of registering them began years later following a finding by the Justice Ranganath Misra Commission that the police had refused to record cases against ‘‘any person in authority.’’

The delay proved fatal as it became that much harder for the prosecution to produce evidence which stands cross-examination despite the passage of years. The acquittal of Sajjan Kumar today is a case in point.

This was in fact the first political case to be taken up. The Jain-Banerjee committee, meant to follow up on the Misra Commission’s report, asked the police in October 1987 to register the case on the affidavit of a riot widow, Anwar Kaur, who alleged that Sajjan Kumar led a mob that killed her husband Navin Singh at Sultanpuri in west Delhi in retaliation to Indira Gandhi’s assassination the previous day.

Given its political implications, the case was registered only after a change of regime. The V P Singh Government got the CBI to register the case in September 1990.

Thus, it took almost six years for the first case to be registered against any political leader in the 1984 carnage. The CBI completed its investigation and readied its chargesheet in 1992, by when the Congress was back in power at the Centre.

The case went into cold storage till the BJP formed the first government of the National Capital Territory of Delhi in 1994. It was under pressure from chief minister Madan Lal Khurana that the Centre then directed the Lt Governor of Delhi to give sanction to the CBI’s chargesheet. The trial followed and the CBI, despite the delay and other odds, produced eight eyewitnesses, including Anwar Kaur, to try and substantiate its charge of Sajjan Kumar’s complicity in Navin Singh’s murder.

The first two eyewitnesses, Salawati Kaur and Phota Singh, who were neighbours and relatives of the deceased, withstood the cross-examination by Sajjan Kumar’s counsel. The affected widow, Anwar Kaur, appeared as the third eyewitness.

When the prosecution examined her on March 22, 1999, she reiterated her charge that Sajjan Kumar instigated and led the mob that killed her husband. But, ironically, the case began to slip out of the prosecution’s hands when Anwar Kaur was cross-examined by Sajjan Kumar’s counsel on four days spread over seven months.

In a dramatic turnaround, Anwar Kaur denied having seen Sajjan Kumar in the mob on the fateful day. Worse, she added, ‘‘I had named Sajjan Kumar as I had been told by the police that he was in the mob.’’

At another point of the cross-examination, Anwar Kaur said that the mob did not even attack her husband as he was hiding in their house and that the couple later took refuge in a mosque. She claimed to have lost track of her husband while they were in the mosque.

Anwar Kaur’s contradictory deposition set the tone for the other five eyewitnesses, who too turned hostile. The trial judge, Manju Goel, took no account of the circumstances in which the eyewitnesses turned hostile as she acquitted all the accused in the case for lack of evidence. Instead, the court readily lent credence to the claims made by two Delhi police inspectors who said that in the days following the 1984 carnage no victim ever mentioned Sajjan Kumar’s name. Sajjan Kumar himself produced those inspectors as defence witnesses. The court’s acceptance of their accounts flies in the face of the Misra Commission’s indictment of the police and finding that ‘‘when oral reports were recorded, they were not taken down verbatim and brief statements dropping out allegations against men in power were written.’’

#107 by arjun_m on December 23, 2002 1:11pm PT
hmm hung up about Pakis... some thing personal??
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If you dont like the ``cultural ethos``, you are free to leave..the US will give you the opportunity to leave..
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In fact I will be soon leaving to the land of relative Unfree ``Singapore``(where Satanic Verses was banned too incedentaly) I really dont like the freedom to be shot at in the parking lot you are welcome to enjoy the local cultral ethos. dont forget to get the autograph from the guy before he shoots you.

#106 by hari on December 23, 2002 12:48pm PT
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How come Pakistan jails ahmedias who recite kalima

make pakistan secular first and then talk about self-determination.
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How do i know ask a pakistani..

+++++
islamic pakistan cannot claim land and people in kashmir because that land of kashmir is also home to
kashmiri hindus, kashmiri buddhists, kashmiri sikhs. if they were under islamic constitution of pakistan they would be automatically be 2nd class citizens by DESIGN
++++

May be ...

but lets do a double check on the DESIGN


In the Earl of Cromer`s (first British Viceroy of Egypt) account of why the British took over Egypt 1882, (1908)
``The population is heterogeneous and cosmopolitan to a degree almost unknown elsewhere. Although the prevailing faith is that of Islam, in no country in the world is a greater variety of religious creeds to be found amongst important sections of the community.``


It is not that such information is not available even a sample reading of Indian History gives lie to what you guys propagate about Islam. So why exactly do you repeat the same arguments over and over again in each and every post regardless of the topic. An answer could be found in the hate that you harbour for Muslims while appearing to be reasoning and civil.

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#96 ali87

Indians in north and indian in east , indians in west and indians in south may not have anything similar, you are right about that. what holds them together is principle of democracy.

The problem with pakistan`s claims or for that matter any islamic nation claim to land and people is simply this: islamic pakistan cannot claim land and people in kashmir because that land of kashmir is also home to
kashmiri hindus, kashmiri buddhists, kashmiri sikhs. if they were under islamic constitution of pakistan they would be automatically be 2nd class citizens by DESIGN. it is one thing to be discriminated against by individual but another matter for the state to discriminate as OFFICIAL POLICY as it happens in Pakistan.

How come Pakistan jails ahmedias who recite kalima? what makes you state do so against an individual`s right to recite whatever they want?
Can a kashmiri hindu become pakistan`s prime minister? can a pakistani hindu become pakistan`s president?

make pakistan secular first and then talk about self-determination.
an islamic nation by design is non-secular and discriminates against non-muslims as OFFICIAL policy and design. just remember that.

the world is getting much smarter on islamic double-talk.

#104 by arjun_m on December 23, 2002 10:02am PT
++++
The fact that abdul paki from pakiland can come to the US and make more money than he can ever hope to make in pakiland is called progress..and its in the US...its coming to india
+++++++

So making money is the means that every thingelse is ok??Probably they Veerappan is a better Guy than you and the Jungles he Inhabits are much better than US where a Engineere can only hope to make a few thousand dollars where as Veerappan Makes dozens of Crores.

The British adventureers who came with the East India company and later on with the british army also made much more than they can hoped to make in Britan.

However I dont blame you. Your hatred is quite visible and it blinds you and fools no one except you.

and lets see you can piss 1 inch further than the pakis...

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#100 by GhalibZaman on December 22, 2002 5:14pm PT
``ali87 & other muslims:

Those on intellectual-drip and under spiritual-anaesthesia deserve not a bedside discussion, but our prayers for their salvation. ``

That is true. Mercy and kindness is what they need.

#98 by arjun_m on December 22, 2002 4:18pm PT
++++
and yet we have people from all over the world(including india and pakistan) lining up for US visas. Thats reality..a good cure for delusions..
+++

They come there to earn money and do not necessarily subscribe to the cultural ethos. Just like the English who came to India in 1600 and did not subscribe to our cultural ethos.
Now dont go on to assume that im saying that all is hunky dory in india and every thing is wrong in the west.. May be this kind of assumptions incease the number of posts, hardly contribute to any understanding.

ali87 & other muslims:

Those on intellectual-drip and under spiritual-anaesthesia deserve not a bedside discussion, but our prayers for their salvation.

Death,
the great equaliser,
the only democrat,
the sole soother,
visits unannounced,
stealthily,
silently,
surreptitously,
inching up to greet the shadow,
(always a-cast, not always visible)

Laments, cries, wails
elegies,
along the cortege-route
and around the dug-up sod.

Six feet under.
There is jubilation, celebration
in the banquet-hall,
where the maggots have arrived,
for another feast.

re:#32 by AmericanExpress
Ramayana, Mahabharata are mythical. May be so but millions of Hindu believe the story is real. That is what matters. Period. Can you prove for sure that Angel Gabriel really visited Prophet Md (PBUH) and that he was not just hallucinating? You can`t. Nobody can. It is all faith. You see a prophet and you believe in his words. SriRam and SriKrishna really existed. Their exploits have been sung as ballets, passed on as words of mouth for centuries until written texts became more readily available. This is not surprising. That is how Vedas and other sacred works were preserved.
River Saraswati was considered by western educated (and western) historians as mythical until AsiaSat satellite (a US satellite) revealed the riverbed of that river that is supposed to have dried up around 1800 BC. It is no more a myth.
The island city of Dwaraka, where SriKrishna had moved from Mathura, has been excavated by UR Rao and his team. Go to the following urls for more detail:
http://www.atributetohinduism.com/Dwaraka.htm
http://www.atributetohinduism.com/Dwaraka.htm
Sridhar

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#78 by sameerJB on December 20, 2002 11:54am PT
=======
Kemal Ataturk was right in giving danda to them and today Turkey has 3000-4000 dollar per capita income without selling oil. Islam needs to be defeated resoundingly for Muslims to get loose from its grip and join modernity.
=========

Palestine has percapita of 1000 dollar so is better than India?

You havent taken on the kurds yet. Remeber the terrorist acts by kurds?? No you wont provide any explanations for that.

and why exactly is LTTE being feted by the europeans and handled by kid gloves by Srilanka?

Have you forgetten the Sikh terrorism? And did you forget the terrorist nagas, Manipuris, the ex terrorist assam student leaders now cheif ministers, Your only gripe is about Muslims. but where were the terrorists befor 1986 in india? were they muslims?

If you are so pro democracy they what is the hesisation in holding a plebisicte in Kashmir.
And what exactly is India? I have a colleauge who is a Punajbi and son of a central govt employee who works in Arunachal Pardesh living there for the last 20 years a hindu at that His comments were very informative. he says that there is very little similarity between those people and us (meaning us Indians) they appear hindu only in having a couple of similar deites but most likelythey are not deeply attached to hinduism because they just worship some Idols without much similiarity to what hindu worships. Their food is different their culture is totally differnent and thus we are forcing them to integrate with India. he says even now after 50 years of forced Isolation and hoping that after a couple of generations they will become more accostomed to our culture I dont think they will reall blend well with us.

This is the reality of the Indian Union. States held forcibily hoping to be integrated in to Indian mainstream. Similiar is the case of Kashmir. Why should a democratic India wait for pakistan for plebiscite. why not have the courage to hold it on its own???

Truth is Indian state was fouded on a few areas with common intrests and few forcibily absorbed and with kashmir being absorbed with conditios and escape routes for the kashmiris. None of those were given by the indian govt. A case point is Kashmiri language was one the last major language to be recognised as a national language I think in the seventies.

Sameer

What exactly is progress?? That one has the previlage of being shot if you dare to ventrue out alone in a parking lot after dark???
This is what per capita of $46,000.00 got the people of america.

take a look at this............
Deccan herald Edit....... part one check the next part if you are intrested...

do you recall what is the GDP figure of Malaysia. or literacy levels of Iran? or the condition of a similarly oil rich Venezuela?? I think that you guys just talk through your hat ......
not even a small attempt at honesty...

Saturday, October 12, 2002

A CONSUMERISTIC TRAP CALLED PROGRESS

Rudderless course

By B P SINGHAL

The country has taken unprecedented strides in its race towards industrialisation, science and technology. It has also registered unprecedented degradation in environment and human values. As a child I was told, “necessity is the mother of invention”. It was an ostensibly grand concept but it could well be apt to put it the other way round, “invention is the mother of necessity”. Invent anything, do some hard selling and make it a necessity seems to be the credo of the current era. Now, can any limits be set on inventions and consequently on “necessities”? If not, shall not the next two or three generations eat up all of the world’s resources and leave this planet desolate by making necessities of thousands of new inventions that are being churned out each year?
Consumerism has already assumed alarming proportions. The tragic irony is that leaders of all hues believe that India is progressing. It doesn’t seem to bother them how the great civilisations of Athenians, Spartans, Macedonians, Greeks and Romans etc, who had all striven for progress, managed to progress themselves into extinction.

Defining progress
If man was scared of coming out of his cave after sunset in the Stone Age and if the same man is scared of coming out of his house after sunset in the streets of Chicago or New York, is it progress? If the son of man was being brought up in communes in the Stone Age and the same son of man is brought up in communes in the 20th or 21st century, is it progress? If for quenching their urge to be with their grand child, the forlorn grandparents living in old age homes in USA have to hire a child to act as their grandchild at the rate of 8 dollars an hour, is it progress? It is no surprise that all the leaders strike dumb when they are asked to define “progress”. They, nevertheless, very confidently proclaim that the country has achieved remarkable progress since independence. God knows how they are measuring the so-called progress.

‘Indian ending’
The Oxford dictionary tells us that progress means “moving forward.” Moving forward presupposes the clear concept of a specific destination. Do they know what is the destination of man or their nation? In other words, what is the purpose of human life? What is the purpose of a nation? If they do not know these, how are they claiming that they are progressing? Yes! They are moving. But, that need not necessarily be “progress.”
Today’s tragedy is that even ‘man’ has been converted into a resource — “human resource.” Resource to what end? Again, there is no answer. The crucial question is whether human being himself is to be the ‘end’ of all human endeavours or is the human being a resource, a means for some yet to be defined objective, or for some abstract concept of progress. There is thus, a tragic directionlessness not only in this country, but throughout the world. Men, like countries, seem to be racing against each other but have little idea of what this race is all about.
It was not for nothing that Arnold Toynbee, the great historian, declared: “What started in the West, will have to have an Indian ending if the world is to save itself from self-destruction.”
What then is this “Indian ending”? It is just that our ancient seers had perceived the truths of life and had a very clear view of what is progress. That progress can only be visualised after knowing the purpose of human life. After all; “progress” in the context of human beings cannot be conceived except in terms of the degree to which they fulfil the purpose for which they were created.
It may sound surprising, but the basic purpose of human life on this planet as arrived at through irrefutable logic is three-fold: a) To achieve ‘perfection’ or purnata, moksha, salvation, or merger with the Supreme Being, (they are all synonymous); b) to voluntarily share the misery of all creation around one’s self (this includes not only human beings, but the entire animal and vegetable kingdom as well as Nature) and c) to voluntarily squander happiness to all creation around one’s self.

Purpose of life
It was not a coincidence that as per Hadis, while mounting his horse, when the keeper of his horse asked Prophet Mohammed to state what is “Kulle Islam” i.e. the “essence of Islam,” he enunciated it in just six words “Khaliq ki Ibadat; Khalq per Shaffaqqat” which means exactly what has been expressed above as the purpose of human life. (“Khaliq means the Creator (who is perfect). “Ibadat” means to worship. “Khalq’”means the Creation i.e. this Universe. And “Shaffaqqat” means compassion, which in action terms, means sharing misery and giving happiness). Exactly the same message is communicated in the following verse of Rigveda: “Ayam may Hasto Bhagwanayam may Bhagwattara / Ayam may Vissh-wabheshajo Ayam Shivabhimar-shanah” (Rigved Mandal 10).
Thus, no matter what the religion is, the purpose of human life as enunciated above is the same in all religions. To fulfil this purpose, man had to sustain life and he, therefore, needed a “means of livelihood.”

Means and ends
Tragedy struck man when he converted the means into an end and the end into means. Money was a means of commerce, but today it has become the end of all endeavours for so many. Rank/ Office was a means to serve fellow humans. Today, it has become an end. This body we possess was a means to fulfil the three-fold purpose mentioned above. But, today, all endeavours are made to keep this body as comfortable, contented and happy as possible by acquiring all the inventions that have been converted into necessities of life. This body has become the end and no more a means.
On the other hand, the Supreme Being has been converted into means. For, do we not often find ourselves praying to the Lord to grant us victory in elections for a seat in Parliament, for being blessed with a son, success in examinations, winning a suit in the court, or for getting our daily bread, etc? As though Lord God were a proprietor of a departmental store supplying a seat in Parliament to A, a son to B or a victory in the suit to C, etc.

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Of finger-printing & iris-scanning

The rumour was rife that hunters from town are on their way to kill a few lions. This disturbed the the usual ambience of the jungle, upset the routine somewhat, and was the topic of the day among animals wise & otherwise.

But the Jackal had made the decision. He must depart. Must leave the jungle. Go elsewhere.

But they are coming to hunt for a lion or two. You are not a lion. Why are you so terrified my good old Jackal.

And the Jackal, who was not so old , good, or stupid either averred:

`` What if these hunters have never ever seen a lion ``.
____________________________________________________________
Yesterday, in the New York Post, Daniel Pipes wrote a column lambasting PBS for wasting taxpayer money on, of all things, a two-hour documentary on Muhammad. Apparently, the idea of public television making a documentary on the founder of the world`s second-largest religion (if you lump the Christian faiths together) is too offensive to even contemplate. Worse, according to Pipes, it`s basically government-funded propaganda -- a sop to politically correct leftists seeking to cover up the many crimes of radical Islam and convert Americans to the faith.
Needless to say, Pipes gets himself pretty worked up. So let`s see what other folks have to say about the documentary -- in particular, the good people at the Islamic Supreme Council of America, founded by Muhammad Hisham Kabbani, a leader of the Naqshbandi Sufi order in the United States. The ISCA loves the new documentary. In an email alert sent out , it announced:

Dear Colleague,

This week, PBS will broadcast the long-awaited documentary MUHAMMAD: LEGACY OF A PROPHET. Under production for three years, this biographical work follows the life of Muhammad and examines the many life-altering contributions he brought with the message of Islam, contributions that have changed the world for the better.

The accolades continue further down:

ISCA congratulates PBS and the production team of MUHAMMAD: LEGACY OF A PROPHET on this unprecedented undertaking, which has the potential to enhance the mainstream American view of Islam. Prophet Muhammad, may God`s peace and blessing be upon him and upon all prophets of God, is revered by a quarter of the world`s population as ``the mercy to all humanity.`` Muslims know the Prophet as a beacon of divine light, the epitome of God`s Mercy, a champion of justice for all, a liberator of the oppressed, the best example in all aspects of life, and illuminator of the paths of peace and piety.

Why is the ISCA`s opinion relevant here? The Sufis, as many readers no doubt already know, tend to be moderate, anti-Iraq and anti-Islamist. Many conservatives (and many liberals) think of Sufis as the ``good guys,`` the Muslims that Western nations should be aiding and promoting as an alternative to more radicals schools of Islamic thought. Kabbani and the ISCA, in particular, have a good rep for being anti-terrorism and for agitating against radical Islam here and abroad.

How do we know all this? Why, from Daniel Pipes, who has effusively praised Kabbani and the ISCA:

Mr. Kabbani earned his stripes the hard way, by taking on nearly the entirety of the radicalized Muslim organizations America. He gave a courageous speech at the State Department in January 1999 in which he accurately noted that extremists had ``taken over 80% of the mosques`` in America. In response, more than 100 mosques and organizations signed a petition condemning Mr. Kabbani and calling for a boycott of him and his organization.

Maybe Pipes should read his own reviews.

By the way, it`s not like PBS is in lockstep with pro-Muslim groups. In 1994, after the first World Trade Center attacks, PBS aired the documentary ``Jihad in America,`` which took a hard look at militant Islamist activity in the United States.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ancient proverb, contemporary applications:

When his death is near, the Jackal heads towards the city.

sac: Nobody would have problem, if Muhammad`s conduct was merely meant for motivation to become better person. That tremendously reduces the personality of a prophet to the level of any revered object. Motivated towards better human being through idealizing any revered or sacred object is one minor pathway for human beings to become better. Most often it is schooling, society, home and competition. Actually idealizing prophet, stone, idol, elephant-nose god, lingum or whatever leading to a better human being has to do with determination to become good, basically independent of all these revered objects.

According to Islam, Muhammad`s conduct is recorded as hadises and sharia, a guideline or blueprint to become better human being in this world whereas Quran, as god`s words, is a guide to reach heaven. Basically it is a package deal. To become a better human being following Muhammad`s conduct and god`s words is one inefficient and tedious pathway from a number of options. A person becoming better human being through this pathway should never be exemplified as model in public forums and media because it justifies the inefficient pathway and all the baggage that comes with it.

I can`t beleive some of the responses here, how some people are so anti-Pakistan and anti-India, anti-Islam and anti-Hinduism. God, people it is unhealthy to have so much hatred in you against someone else or another people, culture or faith.

We are all Human, some people are happy being Hindu and others happy being Muslim, why can`t people just live and let live instead of constantly attacking each other?

dullabhatti # 76

To your first question as to why wasnt a trench dug around jewish houses, it is because they formed the barrier , they were peripheral houses with strong walls,(a trench aound them would have been a waste of precious time & energy & utterly useless ) hence the loyalty of the residents of these houses was crucial.
TO your second Question (comment)
``Your comments about comparison with the atrocities in the modern times are only partially valid as it all depends upon the scale of things. e.g. The total population of Madina was not 6 billion that 700 people out of that is insignificant. Secondly, Eisenhower(sp?), Macarthy, Dyer, Sharon etc may be self righteous little bastards but did`t claim to be Last Prophets of God to the extent that their words and examples of conduct should be followed for all times to come.``
If one is looking at scale , then the consequences should also be weighed, if the betrayal had been succesful then there is no question that the early muslims would have been annhilated.( infact when the rumors of the impending betrayal started ciculating, Muhammed sent two of his companions to check its veracity, he told them if the rumor is false than they should say so plainly but if it is true then they should break the news to him mildly)
why all those 2oth century actions taken, what would have been the consequence of not taking them , as grave as Medina faced. What do you do to traitors today in this age of enlightment.
As for it being the action of a prophet, it bothers me, Iam not trying to explain it away, Iam trying to understand it , putting it in context, it does not mean agreeing to it, this is very crucial in this post 9/11 world, whenever one wants to or tries to understand the events, he/she is accused of condoning the acts.
Returning to the tribe, the severe action taken by the muslims bothers me because there were other options available to them, which though not mild but still much gentler, like , a jewish tribe which had breeched its treaty with the muslims, was forced out , they were not killed but told to migrate, they could take all their belongings.
Muhammed is judged in todays light , when it comes to him people suddenly forget the envoirment in which he was born.
Yes holding on to those standards has clacified Islam as a code of conduct , I think if the prophet were born again in this age he would be horrified with what has been done to his religion.
Islam is not only a religion but a culture ( in the words of Edward Said you dont have to be a muslim to have an Islamic culture), as a culture it has a beautiful core, if it is allowed to evolve ( by the mullahs & the west ) it can & will give rise to a beautiful & peaceful society. Again if allowed to evolve.

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Item appeared in Dawn, 12/19/02 under review section:

It is about various abuses on women in Pakistan:

http://www.dawn.com/weekly/review/review3.htm

It talks about problems for muslim women and also adds that if someone is a non-muslim women then the country/constitution treats them even worse.

``Iss chaman mein kabaab kee boo hai
dil e bulbul jala diyaa kis ney?``
-------------------------------------------------------
tr:(for illiterates in hindi/urdu)

The garden reeks of burgers, o`er-done,
Who gave the bulbul(s) such heart-burn?

Sameer Sahib:

I understand where you are coming from and I agree that the mullah only understands the language of force. At the same time I hope you realize that judging yesterday`s men by today`s standards is an exercise in futility. If the Prophet`s conduct(real or imaginary) can help someone become a better person then all power to them. If on the other hand it produces hypocrites like urstruly,GhalibZaman(alias farangi_kush) etc. who want to deify the Prophet at the expense of followers of other religions, then by all means give them the `danda` or whatever alleviates their haemmoroids.

later
-sac

mr munna:

i am not defending israeli actions. even some of their own news papers dont support whats going on (see below). unfortunately, i have been around plenty of muslims who argue that genetic makeup of jews causes them to commit these atrocities. rulers have translated these half baked conflict of civilization arguments into policies that have proved a disaster to everyone but themselves. result is that decent, hard working folks have to humiliate themselves in front of ins agents to lead a life denied to them in their own countries. (wonder if musharraf’s son is going to be joining the cue?)

zionist policies can be opposed without the need to demonize a whole group. in fact muslim leaders (if they have any balls) should demand their pound of flesh before agreeing to go with along the new adventures in iraq.

http://63.194.130.82/cgi-bin/show_article.cgi?aid=00001705&channel=gulberg&start=0&end=9&chapter=1&page=1

w w w . h a a r e t z d a i l y . c o m

Evacuation as fraud

_ _ _However it is the government that teaches the Hebron settlers that Jews are allowed to do whatever they want in the city and to its large Arab population. If not for a temporary injunction issued by the High Court of Justice last week, the government would have acceded to pressure by the settlers and ordered the demolition of 15 Palestinian-owned houses for the sake of building a ``promenade`` nearby. It`s worth noting in this regard the arrogant statement of Kiryat Arba Local Authority Chairman Zvi Katzover during the evacuation. Katzover, whose salary is paid by the state, announced that the settlers plan to return to the place.

Katzover`s statement was not unrealistic bragging. Most of the settlements established over the years in the territories without authorization were sooner or later turned into ``legal settlements.`` Experience shows that forcible evacuation of a minuscule, isolated outpost does not mean a change in the settlement government`s policies. On the contrary, the ruckus over the evacuation helps the settlers and their patrons in the government divert attention from the expansion of dozens of other illegal outposts in the territories.

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sac: I think you are misunderstanding me. I have no interest in seeing ummah winning over any other group of people. Actually I would be lot more interested in seeing subcontinent doing better before worrying about Arabs or Nigerian Muslims. In a nutshell, here I am mainly about Punjabi culture, Pakistan and friendly India-Pakistan relations. I see Islam hurting on all three fronts.

It is also about mounting a challenge, matching the vigor and zealotry of the other side. They have been used to beating easily low-key challenges from tahmed style in the history because reformation and reason do not work against mullah mentality.

What hundreds of tahmeds and romairs could not do to Taliban, diasy cutters did in matter if days.

The world is ruthless survival of the fittest place. Japanese hanged and decimated christian missioaries and conberts during 18th century and today they can take pride in keeping their native heritage. During last 50 years, Buddhists in South Korea tried low-key peaceful approach against evangelics and today they are on the retreat against pentacostals. In India, Mughals were used to treat Sikhs ruthlessly subjecting them to bizzare punishments but once Banda Bahadur gave them the taste of their own medicine at Sirhind, Mughals finally learned their lesson. Gujrat needed Narendra Modi when Ghaznavi was looting Somnath, not now.

Kemal Ataturk was right in giving danda to them and today Turkey has 3000-4000 dollar per capita income without selling oil. Islam needs to be defeated resoundingly for Muslims to get loose from its grip and join modernity.

Pakistan, Punjabi culture, India-Pakistan neighborly relations and Islam, in my humble opinion, can not win simultaneously.

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dybbut #61

You said ``In this comes the news that jewish tribe with houses which formed part of the defence (where there was no trench) was having some sort of deal with the enemy.``

I am curious, why the trench was not dug on the Jewish side?

Your comments about comparison with the atrocities in the modern times are only partially valid as it all depends upon the scale of things. e.g. The total population of Madina was not 6 billion that 700 people out of that is insignificant. Secondly, Eisenhower(sp?), Macarthy, Dyer, Sharon etc may be self righteous little bastards but did`t claim to be Last Prophets of God to the extent that their words and examples of conduct should be followed for all times to come.

Sameer/hamidm:

You guys disappoint me. Granted the documentary was a sugar-coated attempt to show a more humane side of Islam, you are being too judgemental. Lets be realistic here. You are not going to get a billion people to give up their beliefs because it is entirely at odds with the rest of the `civilized` world. The aim should be to co-opt them into jiving with modern thought and practices. Ordinary Muslims shown in the documentary out of conviction(or whatever reason) were able to reconcile modernity with their faith. And it most cases it allowed them to become better human beings. What is wrong with that?

In a world filled with imaginary heroes like Iron chef and The Rock, what if a multitude tries to find meaning in a mortal being`s extraordinary life? Granted the Muslims had it coming to them for their crazy actions all over the world, it would be pretty dumb to throw out the baby with the bathtub. Muslims in due course of time or violent coercion at the hand of others will find a balance between reality and make-believe.

later
-sac

Freedom Fighters of Kashmir Zindabad.

From the Dawn:

-->Three women killed (by freedom fighters) in Kashmir after rebels order veil


-->Ruling party legislator shot and killed in Kashmir (by freedom fighters)


Slogans of La Ilaha Illallah.. Mohammad ur rasool Allah were heard at the sites of the two incidents..

Saminashah #63: Grassroot organizations do well in economically better off and open atmospheres like Malaysia and Turkey. Malaysia has almost 35 percent non-Muslims but countries like Pakistan do not have non-Muslim base to rely upon for moral and political support. For Pakistan, organizations with less than 100 members can not make a diference. Best hope for Pakistan is actually honest democracy with PPP government and stopping indoctrination by state in the name of Pakistan ideology. Of course, no substitute to women standing up for equality in well organized manner.

S. P. Wakil: It think it is more like the programming schedule by local management of PBS stations when to air certain program. They will probably air it in a week or two. The Jewish interests in USA are not threatened by Muslims or any other group at the bottom of the pit. Just like food chain where planktons can not plan to undermine the interests of human, there is economic chain and one has to be playing in the same league to defeat or hurt the interests of the major league players. It is chinese and indian immigrants before Muslims, wishing to play in the major league. Muslims modus operandi is to pull major league players down at their level and then overpowering through zealotry, mob mentality and am`r bil maroof wa nahi an`il munkir.

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...whatever...who cares...i doubt hardly anyone other than a bunch of romairs sat around watching this stuff...the iron chef episode running at that time on the food channel was far more interesting (and probably truthful)...

Sameer,

The Frontline episode followed through; it was a nice counterpoint to Tuesday`s program. I understood the program to highlight the debates of sharia interpretations and how women are organising to force interpretations to be reformed. Grassroots work at its finest- could we not see these examples of how women will hold archaic interpretation and its apologists accountable? Did anyone catch the woman lawyer who broke the functions of patriarchy down? This the argument that Islamacists cannot refute in any reasonable manner.
While I agree that the cases they focused on were not as brutal as some that we know, it was a good begginer`s survey.
And you are right about many of the men in this program; esp. Mr. Daoud; a complete idiot.

Them and us

Yasmin Hai grew up in a multicultural suburb of London, where Muslims and Jews, with so much in common, appeared to live happily side by side. So what went wrong? Why have some of her old friends` attitudes changed so much? And were things really so perfect then? Twenty years on, she returns to her old haunts in search of answers

Friday December 20, 2002
The Guardian

After years of exile, my father`s most cherished possession was his typewriter. It was a grey Smith Corona manual from the 1950s. The keys had been rubbed clean by the many hours spent on it. He would disappear into his study and close the door firmly behind him. I would stand outside and listen to the furious sound of him tapping his latest letter to the Times - ``the great Times of London``, as he always referred to it.
At the time I didn`t know what he was writing in those letters, but I knew they were important to him. The next morning, he would comb through the letters page, always optimistic. But whatever he was looking for was never there. Disappointed, he would quickly turn back to the front page.

My dad was a political man; a socialist from Pakistan. But he was a Muslim, too - not that religion interested him any more. Life in England was what interested him now.

We grew up in a north-west London suburb - Zadie Smith land, semi-affluent and multicultural, Muslims and Jews living happily side by side. We soon became familiar with our neighbours` ways, but for my dad, the Jews always held a different sort of fascination. And he wasn`t alone.

Our house was always filled with his friends heatedly discussing world events. They spoke of revolution, liberation and marxism. But despite their politics, they were all Asian versions of the perfect English gentleman: so desperate for their lives here to succeed. Maybe that`s why they were so interested in the Jews.

For men seeking their place in this new land, the Jews were the ultimate immigrant success story; people who had come to Britain with nothing and, through study and hard work, had prospered. My dad and his friends were so impressed by them that I remember the pride they took in recounting the similarities between Muslims and Jews. How many times did I hear that Jews, like us, didn`t eat pork? They were kosher, we were halal; they too circumcised their boys; their prophets were our prophets; and so the list went on. But soon I realised that the relationship wasn`t totally rosy. I quickly learned that there were some unpleasant references to Jewish people in the Koran. But my dad told me either to ignore those, or put them in context - and that if I really wanted to understand the relationship between Muslims and Jews, I only had to look at how the Muslim empires had embraced and protected the Jews while Christian Europe had persecuted them.

The world is different now. Just the other day I opened a newspaper and an anti-Semitic rant from a Muslim screamed out at me. Granted, these were, as always, the rantings of an extremist, but the truth is, whenever I discuss Israel with otherwise reasonable Muslim friends, I know I am likely to hear unsavoury remarks about Jews. No one cringes. No one is embarrassed. It seems it has become acceptable to speak like this. So why has it all changed? Weren`t we all brought up revering Jews? Or is my memory playing tricks on me?

I go back to my mum (my father is no longer alive). I have to be reassured that my memories have not just been imagined. She still lives in the same house, though since my dad died, Islamic mementoes have appeared on the wall. She is not terribly supportive of my quest. She believes that anything to do with Jews and Muslims today spells trouble.

I recall the day when a letter arrived for my father from the Times. The great Times of London! I must have been about six. We were all excited, especially as the letter looked so official and important. It was a response to a letter he had written to them on the situation in Palestine. We gathered around as he carefully cut open the envelope. He began to read with great pleasure. Then his expression changed. Devastated, he left the room. I didn`t understand at the time, but later I discovered that when my dad had inquired as to why they had not published the letter, he was told that the content was ``anti-semitic``.

My dad an anti-semite? Since when? That is what I have thought many times over the years. But then I stop. Suddenly I want to find the letters. Were they - could they possibly have been - anti-semitic? But my mother doesn`t know where they are.

I refuse to give up. I decide to contact some of my dad`s ``political`` friends. Maybe they will know the secret of what was in those letters - and in my dad`s heart. Only one of the political men is left: Uncle Jilani, an ex-student of my dad`s. As I enter his house, I see that Islamic books line his shelves and Islamic paintings hang from the walls. We sit down. I nervously inquire about my dad`s writings to the Times. ``Were they anti-semitic?``

My uncle dismisses the question out of hand. ``Don`t be ridiculous!`` he scoffs. ``They accused him of being anti-semitic because he was criticising Israel. He was anti-Zionist. But he, we, always spoke highly of the Jews.`` He starts to cite the similarities between Jews and Muslims. ``Like us, they don`t eat pork.``

I know what he means: the old anti-Zionist/anti-semitic chestnut - but it sounds too simple an explanation for the letter`s devastating verdict on my dad. I think hard. Maybe it was the way my dad wrote, with little regard for Zionist sensibilities. But then he had come from a world where people weren`t reeling from the guilt over the Holocaust. And Jewish rights to collective self-determination - expressed through Israel - came second to the fact that those same rights were being denied to people from his part of the world, too.

Then it suddenly occurs to me that part of the problem is that the Zionist discourse and our understanding of anti-semitism have essentially been constructed in response to western prejudice. And that the Muslim attitude towards Jews had been shaped by factors very particular to their own history and experience.

I turn back to my uncle. How does he feel about the Jews today? I am not prepared for his answer. ``Today when I meet someone Jewish, my first reaction to them is: `Are they anti- Muslim? Do they hate me? Do they want me dead?`` I look at him, shocked. If my dad were alive, would he have come to feel the same? ``When you see what they are doing to the Palestinians, what else can you feel?``

I approach Dr Ghuyas Uddin Sidiqui, leader of the Muslim Parliament. I am not expecting him to appreciate my concerns - but I am wrong. First he sets me straight. ``The British media might not report it, but we have always condemned anti-semitism - even when it is from our own extremists.``

I apologise. But I am still not satisfied. I tell him that I feel uneasy that anti-semitic attitudes - conscious or not - have slipped into everyday British Muslim parlance. ``True, but in this country,`` he explains, ``you are dealing with a Muslim community that is not very sophisticated in dealing with politically complex issues. They end up expressing their frustrations over Israel and Jews using clumsy rhetoric, unaware of the offence they are causing. But I know that is no excuse and we will be looking to address this. You know, the same misunderstanding is happening in Israel and among Jewish people too - about us Muslims.``

That I know. But now something else is troubling me: those Muslims whose attitudes towards Jews are not dictated by politics, but by their extreme or fundamentalist interpretation of the Koran.

I decide to approach one of the Muslim extremist groups. Of course, the discussion does not go where I want it to. Instead, I am soon locked into a theological debate with a very articulate spokesperson. He is not budging. ``But sister,`` he replies when I press him on his anti-semitism. ``Sister, if it says in the Koran that Jews are liars, then they are liars!``

``But you`ve taken the quote out of context!`` I say, remembering what my father once told me.

``Sister, the Koran is not up for interpreting.``

I decide to contact my old friend, Ahmed - a one-time raver, but today a Muslim fundamentalist. Maybe he can help. He once had Jewish friends - he even fancied Jewish women. So how does he feel toward them today?

As I wait for him, I realise I haven`t seen him for a year. When he arrives, he is as stylish as ever. He has grown a beard, which on reflection quite suits him. I soon relax. And then I start explaining my quest. How does he really feel towards Jews today? Ahmed is emphatic. ``It says in the Koran that it is forbidden to be close to Jews.`` I squirm. ``Jews more than anyone else?`` ``For me, yes. They insulted our prophets.`` ``So you can`t be friends with Jews any more?`` ``The Koran says you can still be friends and work alongside them - which I still do - but you just can`t get closer than that.``

It seems that Ahmed`s interpretation of the Koran now totally dictates how he feels and behaves towards everything, including Jews. ``What about Israel? Should Jews have a homeland?`` I have already started writing down ``No`` when Ahmed surprises me.

``Yes, of course they should. That is not our argument with them. We say, `Have your homeland, live with