The Case For and Against The Satanic Verses

#18 by einsteinwallah on December 25, 2002 7:03am PT

Pretty weak arguments (and the pettiness is unbecoming of someone seriously trying to emulate Big Al!)

War is murder. Whether it is justly waged or not. Are you willing to label US efforts to liberate Iraqi souls by direct action and sanctions as murder?

Dr. Roy,

This was fascinating! Your case about the many perspectives dialoguing about Islam seems a compelling and authentic interpretation.

I tend to agree with Saima Shah regarding what you judge as the cartoon like representations of Eastern characters; it seems an intentional device. Perhaps Saima (if she were interested) could write a survey comparing Rushdian characters from various novels/short stories to interrogate what his modus operandi is? I`d be interested in reading that...

My other quibbles concern your representation of highbrow and lowbrow culture; the task of a diasporic writer, as any contemporary writer is to locate thee tensions between several cultures in debate, conflict, negotiation. The culture that produced Madonna and Boy George understood that these two icons were questioning the construction of gender, sexuality, Westernness within the arena of the mainstream. These are precisely the icons that the more conservative among most of cultures find disturbing and threatening. Beethoven`s struggle with his vision and growing deafness while an romantic narrative easily translatable to any culture is considered appropriately dignifiec, please remember that almost every culture has had its equivalent of Madonna and Boy George. During the English Renaissance while Shakespeare or whomever was producing Macbeth and Othello, Christopher Marlowe, Ben Jonson, Aphra Behn and Thomas Dekker were writing and performing plays that interrogated gender, sexuality, race, religion, class, and the growing economic mobility of the merchant class in urban areas that were traditionally run by old money....My point is Rushdie is correct at looking at the places where these negotiations take place-and in contemporary times, they are in pop culture-which of course travels more readily thanks to MTV...

Urstruly:#21

Excellent compendium of facts. Thank you very much. You,as usual made CHOWK a bit richer today.

``PurR gaee kis* kee nigaah-e muttabassum Seemaab,
Ho gayaa hurf-fe ghalat,-- daftar-ay issyaan meiraa``

*pbuh.

#32 on Sheeshank Lele board is for you.

THE LEGACY OF A GENERAL

Eienstien # 15 enquires “……………A body count of less than 30 was mentioned for violence that happened when Makkah was taken. Does anyone know how much is total for entire venture to establish brand new religion of Islam? What I mean is during the time of prophet under his direct orders………….”

Further in #18 he writes “………..It is probable that he was trying to resolve a political problem of exploitation of some people or legitimation of some human right violations and so forth. But his methods for combating those ills (whatever they may be) were not of political activism…………”


Reply:

There is no other person in the history of mankind whose life has been scrutinized more than the life Holy Prophet (pbuh); scrutinized equally by his friends and foes. There is no other person in the history of mankind whose life is as open book as that of the Prophet. Every action that he took, every word that he spoke has been recorded and reaches us via more than 6 hundred thousand narrations and traditions.

During his life time Holy Prophet acted also as a general who conquered an area of one million square miles in 10 years; that is an area equal to the Europe West of Russia. He conquered all this territory by sacrificing less than 150 (145 to be precise) Muslims in 10 years. This can only happen when one is set out to conquer hearts and minds and not the bodies.

There are two types of military expeditions that took place during his life time which are termed as Ghazwat and Saraya . By definition Ghazwat are those military expeditions in which he himself took part; Saraya on the other hand are those expeditions which he sent under the command of his companions. In his life time he fought 22 Ghazwat and 37 Saraya. Most of the Ghazwat and Saraya ended up without a single loss of life because most of these expeditions were just policing and enforcing the Medina Pact which he made with the tribes of Medina and surrounding areas. BTW Medina Pact is the first ever written constitution in the history of mankind.

A complete list of Ghazwat and Saraya is given below with the number of casualties listed. The loss on the side of enemies is also negligible given the barbaric nature of early Arabian society. The execution of 700 Jews after the battle of trench may not be considered as casualties of war, since that was actually an act of treason and breaking of Medina pact that resulted in their execution. But even if it is considered an act of war the number of enemy casualties still is less than 1000 approx., which makes it 120 casualties per year. There is only one man who was killed by him in a war. Similarly, the 14 people killed (which your sources say as 30) during the conquest of Mecca were not casualties of war, instead they were killed because the next of kin of their victims refused to forgive them. So it was a judicial execution and not an act of war.

A detailed history of these military expeditions can be seen at the following website, and can be verified through million others:

http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/SM_tsn/

And BTW Muslims are open to inquiry if it is done without malicious intent. There are no taboos in Islam.


GHAZWAT

Year 2 A.H (2 years after migration)
1: Ghazwat abwa also called Ghazwah Dawaan
Muslim Casualties: 0
Enemy: 0

2: Ghazwah Badr Kubra
Muslim Casualties: 14
Enemy: 70

3: Ghzawah Banu Qainuqa
Muslim Casualties: 1
Enemy: 1

4: Ghazwah Saweeq.
Muslim Casualties: 0
Enemy: 0

Year 3 A.H: Three Ghazwaar took place:

5: Ghazwah Gharfaan
Muslim Casualties: 0
Enemy: 0

6: Ghazwah Uhud
Muslim Casualties: 70
Enemy: 23

7: Ghazwah Hamrâ` Al-Asad
Muslim Casualties: 0
Enemy: 1

Year 4 A.H Two Ghazwaat were faced:

8: Ghazwah Banu Nudair
Muslim Casualties: 0
Enemy: 0

9: Ghazwah Badr-e-Sughara.
Muslim Casualties: 0
Enemy: 0

Year 5 A.H Four Ghazwaat were faced:
10: Ghazwah Zatur-Raqa`
Muslim Casualties: No info
Enemy: No info

11: Ghazwah Doomatul-Jandal
Muslim Casualties: 0
Enemy:0

12: Ghazwah maresi, also known as Ghazwah Bani-ul-Mustaliq
Muslim Casualties: 1
Enemy: fewer than 10

13: Ghazwah Khandaq (Ditch), the more important and famous one.
Muslim Casualties: 0
Enemy: 700* (see note above)


Year 6 A.H Three Ghazwaat occurred:

14: Ghazwah Bani Al-Hayaan
Muslim Casualties: 0
Enemy: 0

15: Ghazwah Ghabah also known as Ghazwah Zi-Qarah
Muslim Casualties: 0
Enemy: 0

16: Ghazwah Hudaibiyah.
Muslim Casualties: 0
Enemy: 0

Year 7 A.H One Ghazwah in this year:

17.Ghazwah Khaibar.
Muslim Casualties: 18
Enemy: 93

Year 8 A.H Four Ghazwaat happened during this year:

18: Conquest of Mecca
Muslim Casualties: 0
Enemy: 15

19: Ghazwah Hunain
Muslim Casualties: 4
Enemy: 70

20: Ghazwah Ta`if
Muslim Casualties: 0
Enemy: 0

Year 9 A.H Only one Ghazwah in this year:
22 Ghazwah Tabuk
Muslim Casualties: 0
Enemy: 0

SARAYA

1: Saryah Hamzah
2: Sarayah Ubaidah.
3: Saryah Zaid bin Muslim
4: Saryah Zaid bin HarithFour Saryah
5: Saryah Abu salmah
6: Saryah Abdullah bin Anees
7: Saryah Munzar
8: Saryah Murthad.
9: Saryah Muhammad bin Muslimah toward Qartaa
10: Saryah Akkashah
11: Saryah Muhammad bin Muslimah towaed Zil Qasd
12: Saryah Zaid bin Harithah toward Bani Saleem
13: Saryah Abdur-Rahman bin Auf 6: Saryah Ali
14: Saryah Zaid bin Harith toward Umme Qarfa
15: Saryah Abdullah bin Ateek
16: saryah Abdullah bin Rawaha
17: Saryah Karz bin Jabir
18: Saryah Amr Ad-Damri.
19: Saryah Ghalib Toward Bani Al-Maluh
20: Saryah Ghalib toward Fidak
21: Saryah Shujah
22: Saryah Ka`b
23: Saryah Amr bin Aas
24: Saryah Abu Ubaidah bin Al-Jarrah
25: Saryah Abu Qatadah
26: Khalid, also know as Ghameesa
27: Saryah Tufail bin Amr Dusi
28: Saryah Qutaba.
29: Saryah Alqamah
30: Saryah Ali
31: Saryah Akkashah.
32: Saryah Khalid bin Waleed toward Najran and
33: Saryah Ali toward Yamen.
34: Saryah Abu Bakr
35: Saryah Bashr bin Sa`d
36: Saryah Ghalib bin Abdullah
37: Saryah Ajzam. Saryah under the command of Usama. which set out after Prophet’s demise.

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{Yes, there is a clash. But it is not between Muslims and the West. It is a clash of haves and have-nots. It is a clash of the rich, arrogant, enfranchised US-led West and the poor, humiliated and disenfranchised peoples of underdeveloped countries, which happen to have Muslim majority populations. }

....what a load of apologist crap....there are poor people in every corner of the world from paraguay to tibet to the congo...one doesn`t see them flying planes into buildings...for example, saudi hijackers were not poor by any means...what compelled them to become demons?....you find the answer...

[ #16 by AmericanExpress on December 24, 2002 9:27pm PT
...
On the Internet there is lot of Garbage.
...
Similarly in this case who cares why the killer of FIDO killed.]

I agree with you that the murder may not necessarily have anything to do with what friends of victim surmise or conjecture. Murder investigation should be free from what others say. Murder investigations have dual purpose of finding truth as well as quality evidence which is good enough for successful conviction.

I stumbled upon the site when trying to put together a body count of how many died when the prophet tried to found his new religion. I thought the fact that it was less than 30 when taking Makkah tells only half the story.

I also do not like the insinuation that Salman Rushdie distorted the memory of the prophet. Roy is writing about his words at death bed. But in his lifetime Muhammad was a violent man. It is probable that he was trying to resolve a political problem of exploitation of some people or legitimation of some human right violations and so forth. But his methods for combating those ills (whatever they may be) were not of political activism.

What he did was argue of being recipient of god`s communications. And with that he tried to was forcibly seek allegiance to his new religion based on this so called communictions from god. In that process he killed a number of people. What ensued after his death was worse. In no small measure the story of Muhammad`s life might have become source of legitimation of murders that were committed later.

It is just sophistry to argue that all these murders were acts of criminals and the connection of those murders to Islam is a matter open to question. No. Whereever such connections can be established we should condemn not only the act but sequence of reasoning which led to the act. In my opinion discovery of such connections between religion and murders it inspires is as much important as ``secular and judicial`` convictions. The problem of religion being invoked to commit murders, has gone way out of hand.

Salman Rushdie did not sully memory of prophet. That memory was already dirty. There was blood. Lot of blood. Salman Rushdie was unoriginal in his judgement of the man. Conclusions he wrote were arrived at before Salman arrived at the scene. Another bit siphistry is in the argument that when he wrote Verses he was living in Britain at the time and that he did not set out to write a modern diatribe against all religious traditions he had encountered. Let me ask Roy: Are you free to criticise (say) Rabindranath?

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Opinion from The Nation (Lahore) December 25, 2002

What clash of civilisations?

By Izzat Majeed

It is time to forget this whole mess about the `clash of civilisations.` Yes, there is a `civilisation` in the advanced, market-based democracies in the West. But there is no `Islamic civilisation` today, and there has not been one since the collapse of the great Abbasi Empire when Halaku Khan, the grandson of Chengiz Khan, burnt Baghdad to the ground in 1250. That fire also destroyed what was by then the greatest library the world had ever seen.
After the fall of Baghdad, the unified empire of Islam and the civilisation it gave rise to, dissipated into regional kingdoms. Muslim rule survived in Al-Andalus and some of the great debates surrounding the de facto secular nature of the Abbasis continued unabated but they did not outlive the end of Muslim rule in Spain.
Islam`s golden period created the Islamic Civilisation. It was based on a spirit of inquiry, tolerance of different views of religion, society, and the interpretation Islam`s early centuries. The Abbasis in Baghdad and the Muslims in Spain created the basis of what could have been a dynamic, constantly evolving and progressive Islamic Civilisation. But by the beginning of the 14th century, this great Civilisation was frozen in time and place by the rulers and jurists of the day who proclaimed the end of debate and dialogue.
Islam never saw another unified empire. The Ottoman empire did lay claim to a caliphate of sorts but, ultimately, it remained an Ottoman entity that happened to be Muslim. The Mughals of India ruled India as secular Muslims. Emperor Akbar even tried to create a fusion of religions (the `Din-e-Ilahi` - religion of God) which, in its failure, only highlighted the secular nature of the Mughal empire. And when the last of the great Mughals, Aurangzeb, turned fanatic, it hastened the collapse of the empire. Islam saw lesser kingdoms from the Maghreb to the Far East, but they were all local and regional.
The dawn of the bourgeois nation-state, along with the collapse of `empire` in Europe and the consolidation of capitalism after 1848, further eroded any collective sense of `civilisation` within Islam. The Muslim `Ummah,` which had expired with the collapse of the Abbasis, begun to think in terms of individual national liberation movements.
Thus the nationalism of the anti-colonial struggle in Muslim-majority areas in the 20th century developed into a secular struggle for independence and human rights. Islam was never the ideological force in any of these nationalist movements. In India, the Muslims (a minority in social and economic decline) started off alongside the Hindus in the independence struggle. The ulema were dead against the creation of Pakistan. The Quaid-e-Azam, the founder of Pakistan, was a nationalist who only sought minority protection in the face of Hindu obduracy and the classical British ``divide and rule`` policy. Here is what the Quaid said on the eve of Pakistan`s creation to the Constituent Assembly:
``You may belong to any religion or creed, that has nothing to do with the business of state --- you will find that in due course of time Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense, because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the State.``
The Quaid died soon after this speech and the mullahs waylaid his secular Pakistan and robbed the Muslims of any civilised future. After all the Muslims of South Asia form over 40 percent of the world`s total Muslim population. So, when we get worked up about the `clash of civilisations`, we are merely confusing the existing `Western` civilisation with a defunct `Islamic` one. Yes, there is a clash. But it is not between Muslims and the West. It is a clash of haves and have-nots. It is a clash of the rich, arrogant, enfranchised US-led West and the poor, humiliated and disenfranchised peoples of underdeveloped countries, which happen to have Muslim majority populations.
The Muslims do not hate America. They hate US policies, be they for the control of oil (creating the whole mess in the Middle East and beyond) or access to markets, or keeping the war machine in shape. Give a Muslim half a chance and he (and more so, she) would love to be educated in the US, benefiting from all the freedoms enjoyed by American citizens (the present curtailment of human rights there notwithstanding). And he would also fight to bring those freedoms to his people.
We forget the US is an imperial power, no different from any other in history. Rome was the centre of the world. It was the dream of every Roman subject to get Latin rights, the then equivalent of a `green card`, or better still, full citizenship. The ``barbarians``, when defeated, became the most ferocious defenders of the Empire. One such ``outsider``, Philip, the Arab, rose to become Caesar (244-249) during the thousandth year of Rome. It is in the nature of an imperial power to constantly seek consolidation and extension of ``empire`` with all the economic, cultural, political and military power at its command.
So, there is no reason to cry with the tears of Western `civilisation` when it is acting in the only way that makes sense to its imperial dictates. We Muslims have no civilisation (Islamic or secular) to defend. Ignorance, poverty, the dark rule of self-inflicted dogmas, ruled by corrupt (and visionless) dictators, do not make a civilisation.
I cannot name a single `Muslim` country with any degree of democratic, `civilised` government today, and none is in sight. The millennium-old practice of Islam has a long, long way to go before it can be called civilised. So, where is the `clash of civilisations?` It is the age-old struggle of the downtrodden wanting just a loaf of bread and the freedom to eat it any which way they like.
It is pathetic and meaningless when Muslim fanatics talk about `jihad` against Western civilisation while enjoying all its benefits in their own dark and un-free societies. It is just as well that the vast majority of Muslims do not much care about these fanatics.
Look at the `Islamic` world and you will see that, with the exception of Iran and the Gulfdoms, all other Muslim countries are de facto secular societies governed by the civil law of the West. Iran is a special case (given the history of Shia-ism which comprises, at best, 10-15 percent of all Muslims) and the Gulfdoms are mere oil rentiers with illusions of nationhood living at the mercy of the West. The Gulf Muslims cannot drink oil (especially as it is unrefined and they can not make even the smallest nut or bolt of a refinery).
Islamic `fundamentalism` is a meaningless term, but the fundamentals of Islam are simple: belief in One God, prayer, fasting, charity (Zakat) and pilgrimage (Hajj). `Jihad`, about which the whole world is crying hoarse, particularly the Muslim fanatics, is not a fundamental pillar of Islam. In any event, the meaning of jihad, as mindless warlordism, is alien to Islam. In the fundamental pillars of Islam, there is nothing that can justify the religious mayhem a tiny minority of Muslims is desperately trying to inflict on the world at large. Fortunately, the vast majority of Muslims do not support the fundamentalists (the Mullah Business Ltd).
Most of us are too busy going about our disenfranchised and poverty-stricken lives to worry about the mullah`s world. However, the greater the disenfranchisement (look at the current political scene) and the more miserable the level of poverty and illiteracy, the more harmless the appeal of Islamic fanaticism. We may yet descend into the Taliban hell by default, given the current mullah-army nexus which seems to think it has finally hoodwinked the people into thinking they have reached the `end of politics.`
The lost `civilisation` of Islam has to be rediscovered with the mind of the 21st century. The mullahs offer nothing more than a dictatorship of the truly ignorant over the apathetic. It will be a long battle before the war against the present dark age of Islam can be won. The golden age of Islam is only relevant in giving us the freedom to think and interpret Islam. The mullah, on the other hand, wants to go back to camels and flying carpets.
The West, particularly the US, is not invincible if civilisations were to clash in earnest. The Chinese, Indian and Japanese, `civilisations` have clashed with the West at one time or another. The Chinese and Indians wanted independence; the Japanese economic domination. The Chinese and Indian `clashes` won; the Japanese lost, but then had the vision to learn from the West and prospered dramatically while keeping their own civilisation more or less wrapped up in Western clothes. The wars of independence in the post-1945 era defeated the West. The Vietnamese people defeated the US comprehensively, and yet, today, are trading and learning from their former enemy.
The time has come for us Muslims to declare jihad on our own ignorance and on the mullah`s hijacking of Islam. `There is no compulsion in religion` - Allah says so in the Quran. The US will always create its own demons to fight and conquer. The fingerprints they seek today are not of an Islamic civilisation (which the Muslims have to rediscover) but of an enemy they themselves have created.

A quote from somewhere on internet:

``In 1992, Islamic assassins had gunned down my good and brave friend Farag Foda, a professor and columnist, a human-rights activist, and an outspoken critic of the Islamic militants. The murder had shocked Cairo and terrified intellectuals. . . Egypt`s most popular preacher, Abdel Hamid Kishk, a blind sheikh who constantly attacked both the government and its official religious establishment. Kishk had been telling his audience that Muslims who entered paradise would enjoy eternal erections and the company of young boys draped in earrings and necklaces. Some of the ulema, the religious scholars at al-Azhar University, the governments seat of Islamic learning, had disagreed. Yes, they said, men in paradise would have erections, but merely protracted, not perpetual. Other experts disputed the possibility of pederasty in paradise. ``Is this what concerns Muslims at the end of the 20th century?`` [Farag] Foda asked in a column in October magazine. ``The world around us is busy with the conquest of space, genetic engineering and the wonders of the computer, while Muslim scholars,`` he wrote in sadness and pain, ``were worried about sex in paradise.`` . . . he was killed.`` (Judith Miller)

The quote is from following link:

http://www.truthbeknown.com/islamquotes.htm

A body count of less than 30 was mentioned for violence that happened when Makkah was taken. Does anyone know how much is total for entire venture to establish brand new religion of Islam? What I mean is during the time of prophet under his direct orders.

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In re mbenzenglish #5:

?

On second thought. Oh my GOD. I never knew Rushdie was in cahoots with Thatcher, Israel, Canary Wharf (non-sequitor?) and the insurance oil [sic] people in 1971. Holy Moly, this MUST mean that, like the Canary Wharf development project (which, if I am not mistaken, is under the sponsorship of the Saudi Oil wallahs), the creation of Bangladesh is actually a land reclamation project hatched by Thatcher, Israel and the insurance oil (?) people. And this MUST mean that England is trying to funnel insurance oil (?) to Israel via Bangladesh. Hmmm. This is VERY interesting. Someone alert the New York Times. Dr. Watson, the Game is afoot.

But wait, there appears to be more. Rushdie, in cahoots with Madam Taslima Nasreen (MTN, apparently) are responsible for the business of child prostitution in the former East Pakistan. This MUST mean the oil (both Saudi and insurance) are pimping kids in Dhaka. More millions to their billions I guess, though I never would have imagined such horizontal integration in multinational conspiracy industries.

But what gets me; what really stumps me, is the fact that women and girls from Afghanistan, Kashmir, Gujrat, Pakistan and Yugoslavia were presented to Atal Behari Vajpayee by his ole’ comrade, the famed war criminal Milosovic. Frankly, I never imagined ole’ Atal – what with the arthritis and all – getting jiggy with it. Wow, the stuff you pick up and learn on Chowk never ceases to amaze me.

Dear mbenzenglish, I am amazed by your grasp of religious and historical events. I never thought a book review on Salman Rusdie’s worse novel could be a summed into a competition between “evil of islam vs evil of jews ,christians ,hindus,buddhists”. (Bhuddists? Bhuddists!! BHUDDISTS!!!??)

Personally, I recall reading Verses after I picked it up in a Phoenix bookstore in 1996. I recall reading it, along with the rest of Rushde, in one go. My thoughts: Not as good as the Moor’s Last Sigh (though, after reading your comments, I am convinced there might be a South Indian/Keralan connection with the Thatcherites/Israelis/Insurance Oil (?) wallahs – what a nexus); but hilarious, and instructive. I mean, how do you reconcile the episode of the Satanic Verses with contemporary Islamic dogma. In The Life of Mohammad, Karen Armstrong makes a strong argument, explaining the Satanic Verses as a sort of un-official (that it, without His sanction) marketing strategy. Which failed. Rushdie’s magical realism would have you believe something else. But who am I to argue what actually happened. I mean, I just realized that child prostitution in South Asia is actually a scam controlled by writers and authors (I shall, of course, regard from now on all written things with an eye of skepticism).

But, dear mbenzenglish, I worry for you. You seen too far into the truths which make this world revolve. Like you, I yearn for a state of innocence. Perhaps you might forgive me if I say that I do not believe it lies in recreating life as it was in nomadic Arabia, circa 800 A.D.

Rafay Alam

dear saima -- but this is all `baasi kaRhee` -- why now --

satanic verses were merely manic, meaningless, meandrings of a midde aged man -- in mid life crisis --

NOT even read by a bunch of illiterate religious howler monkeys.

the MAN -- is now long over the hump -- a much calmer saner man -- and no doubt -- one of the most innovative and brilliant writers of English language which he has enriched immensely...