Creation of Hindu ’madrasas’

Ref khansahib #124

[hindus are torchoring our brothers and raping our sisters. I will go with my followers under darkness of night and liberate them. Then hindus will be our slaves for our pleasureful puropses. Those who resist will be killed, according to our laws in Islam.]

So, if the Hindus do it, it is rape but when you Islamist thugs do it, it is ``slavery for our pleasureful purposes``?

[The day for kayamat is very near!!!]

Kayamat, now that wouldn`t mean `buggery`, would it?

Dont worry Rashid Talib.
I am going to India to set up my madrassa. I will teach my brother muslims to uprise against the hindu brahmins who are killing them everyday. hindus are torchoring our brothers and raping our sisters. I will go with my followers under darkness of night and liberate them. Then hindus will be our slaves for our pleasureful puropses. Those who resist will be killed, according to our laws in Islam.

The day for kayamat is very near!!!

Ref AAmir #120

[How phony & fragile the world is that gets threatened by 11 yr old girl with harmless innocuous little piece of cloth .And thse guy need Reagans Star Wars Technology to intercept nuclear loaded ICBM???????
.....
Singaporean girl defies school ban on Muslim headscarves]

Hey 12-Head, didn`t you make the claim on another board that the reason the ``Freedom Fighters`` in Kashmir want women to wear the burqa is that so they can also dress up in a burqa and sneak weapons around? So, if the Singapore government decides that no hijab-shijab will be allowed because the next step might be the burqa and who knows what is under the burqa, what is your complaint?

Also, you were quick to rush with that explanation for the burqa when acid was thrown on the faces of Kashmiri women for not wearing the burqa but you kept your vile mouth shut when three baby girls were murdered by your ``Freedom Fighters`` -- ironically, the baby girls were Muslimas. What crime did THEY commit? Not wearing hand grenades as necklaces?

Have you NO shame?

Did anyone else catch the delicious irony of a man named Talib (student) commenting on ``Hindu madrassahs``?

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To Chowk Staff:

I am sure you all know how long URL links scews up the formatting of new design chowk pages. For example #102 by arjun_m has a link which does this.

My suggestion is to process such links so that (say) after every 60th character the character following it is replaced by its ASCII hex code preceded by ``%``. I am posting the link from #102 with such modifications and as you can see it is not screwing up the formatting:

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=t%68estar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1035776004920&ca%6Cl_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154

From the Washington Times


Dangerous democracy
Thomas Sowell
CREATORS SYNDICATE

Published December 31, 2002

One of the cornerstones of the war on terrorism is the premise that promoting democracy is a long-run goal for creating a better world, one which will not breed so many terrorists. But a new book, ``World on Fire`` by Professor Amy Chua of the Yale law school, argues persuasively that democracy can be positively dangerous for some non-Western countries, especially when combined with a free market economy.
While democracy and free markets have been an extremely productive combination for many European and European offshoot societies, such as the United States and Australia, Professor Chua sees these two things as being like an explosive mixture in certain non-Western nations. More specifically, this combination is seen as dangerous in those countries where some ethnic minority is dominant in a free market economy, while the majority population dominates politics through their votes.
If this thesis sounds strange, try to make a list of countries that are non-Western and which enjoy the freedoms we speak of as democracy, as well as having a free market in which some minority group is dominant.
Merely making a list of countries that are both non-Western and democratic is enough of a challenge, and adding a free market shrinks that already short list. Now add the key proviso that some ethnic minority dominates the economy.
The Chinese minority is dominant in the economies of Indonesia and Malaysia, the Indian minority is dominant in Fiji, the Lebanese have been dominant in West Africa, and other groups in other places around the world. But these have seldom been democratic countries.
Perhaps Malaysia might be considered a democracy, since it has an elected government, but the glaring absence of free speech on racial issues in Malaysia keeps it from being a free society, which is what most people mean by democracy, even though that is not the original meaning of the word. It is doubtful whether Malaysia could survive if racial demagogues were free to stir up the Malay majority against the Chinese minority that is still a dominant force in the economy.
The absence of free speech on racial matters in Malaysia means there can be no careers like those of Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton in the United States. Maybe the U.S. is secure enough to be able to afford to let irresponsible rabble-rousers run loose — or maybe someday we will discover we are not — but Malaysia certainly is not.
Sri Lanka started coming apart within a decade of receiving its independence as a free, democratic nation in 1948. The Tamil minority was not as dominant in its economy as the Chinese minority in Malaysia and other Southeast Asian countries, but still Tamils were over-represented at the top in business, in the professions, and in education. That was enough to allow the Sinhalese majority to be mobilized politically against them by ambitious politicians.
Even though there had never been a single race riot between the Sinhalese majority and the Tamil minority during the first half of the 20th century, there were many in the second half, punctuated by unspeakable atrocities. Eventually Sri Lanka descended into outright civil war, in which this small island nation has suffered more deaths than the United States suffered during the Vietnam War.
Similarly, according to Professor Chua, an authority on ethnic conflicts around the world, there were no major outbreaks of violence between the Hutu and Tutsi in Rwanda in the first half of the 20th century. Then majority rule brought ethnic polarization and horrifying massacres.
What about counter-examples of free, democratic, free-market, non-Western societies where an ethnic minority is blatantly more successful in the economy than the majority population, but where the people live at peace with one another? You supply those examples. I can`t think of any.
Professor Chua`s thesis is especially important in an era when American foreign policy sometimes seems to be pressing our allies and others to become democracies with free markets — whether or not each country`s social conditions or cultural traditions provide the prerequisites for letting that particular combination be a blessing rather than a curse.

Thomas Sowell is a nationally syndicated columnist.

Ref Romair #38

[My (future) kids will certainly have a much higher standard of living now, than had I been living in Multan or Nowshera making pennies as a Captain..... ]

But I thought you were a Field Marshal!

Ref ferozk #47

[Have you in India punished the people, who were responsible for killing the thousands of Sikhs after the assassination of Indra Ghandi?]

No. In fact, one guy (Sajjan Somebody) just got acquitted in the third such case against him in suburban New Delhi. He is an elected member of the Parliament from the Congress Party, the party of the secularists, the party that decries Narendra Modi, the BJP, and the Gujarat riots.

And you expect Indians to vote against Narendra Modi and vote the Congress into power in Gujarat!

By the way, it seems that Narendra Modi paraded a man named Razak Kasim from Bombay who had e-mailed him a death threat in a recent public meeting. He publicly pardoned Kasim and even helped him get his job back. Of course we all know from our English-language press that Narendra Modi is a Muslim-hater.

You actually believe the crap you read in the press?

rsridhar #110

The majority-minority equation you are expounding is replicable in all situations, not just religion or community. The replication of this principle is the unfortunate path Pakistanis have taken which has ended up with laws granting death sentence for `offending` a majority. India is full of minorities of different complexion. Each of us is a minority by ourselves. If I happen to think differently from the majority on some subject, for example, I donot see why I should to be asked to `please` you or the majority who disagrees with me, in order to be allowed to live safely.

Gujaratis who voted for BJP are a minority, Gujaratis who voted for BJP on the majority/minority principle which you are expounding are an even smaller minority, and MUCH MORE so is the VHP and so is the BJP.

If anything, you are asking that the VHP minority be appeased, a tiny minority which considers itself totally unaccountable not only to the state but also to the majority of Hindus it claims to represent, and here you are telling the majority of nonVHP Indians to keep it happy in order to remain secure? rsridhar, thats a very slippery slope, do watch your step.

US bombs Madressah near border

BAGRAM, Dec 31: A US warplane bombed an abandoned religious school in the Pakistani territory after a gunbattle between the US and Pakistani troops on the border with Afghanistan, Pakistan officials said on Tuesday.

The US military said that one of its soldiers was wounded in Afghanistan on Sunday in an exchange of gunfire with a Pakistani border guard. A Pakistani official said two border guards were also injured.

The wounded American was part of a unit conducting a mission with the Pakistani forces along the Afghan border when a disagreement appeared to break out, according to a statement released by the US military at their Afghan headquarters at Bagram air base.

``A Pakistani border scout opened fire with a G3 rifle after the US patrol asked him to return to the Pakistan side of the border,`` the statement said. ``That individual and several others retreated to a nearby structure,`` it added. ``Close air support was requested and a 500-lb bomb was dropped on the target area.``

Mohammad Khurshied, a local official in the South Waziristan tribal area, later told Reuters that a seminary in Angor Adda had been hit by the US warplanes

////This shows the true nature of the madrasa, the place to where the pak soldiers retreat after shooting the `protectors` of civil society.

rsridhar
A lot of what this writer says is relevant here ( his Israel remark is totally off, though):
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1021230/asp/opinion/story_1516870.asp

re:#108 by sadna
I agree with you. But the public opinion determines the votes. Votes determine policies of the party in power. If BJP had 2/3rd majority, it would be singing a different tune today. It would not be in a coalition and would not be bothered about a ``common minimum program``. We would have seen its true colors then.
It is important that majority community not be antagonised. Of course laws, constitution etc are guarantees to freedom of minorities but have we not seen these being tampered with in Gujarat? Best security for muslims would be to build bridges with secular hindus.
Closer home in US, we are seeing what happens once some minorities lose the trust of majority community. Of course muslims in US who are being targeted by INS have recourse to judicial redressal and what not but it is a difficult battle ahead.
Sridhar

are You, like ME ; confused by THE sTYle of cer-
TAIN interactors? IS. THERE A sp-
ecial courSE in paKisTAN ,FOR wRitinG in this maRVELOUS wAY?

PLEASE iNFORM! My DEVIOus hinDU self is; DyinGTO K NOW,

rsridhar #103
``any nation`s minorities are safe only as long as they have the good wishes of its majority community``

rsridhar, a nations majority cannot hold itself above the Constitution wrt guaranteeing life and property of citizens, and if these survive, then equal rights. This is the time for right thinking people to stress this point, and not its opposite.

stuka #105
What I meant was the sense of leadership in Indians themselves. It seems almost an insult to say so in light of Gujarats 2002 though, and when we are likely headed for a long detour :(.

arjun-m,
Forget hobbyty...what do you have to say about this?
http://63.194.130.82/cgi-bin/show_article.cgi?aid=00001695&channel=gulberg&start=50&end=59&page=6&chapter=1#114

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Home > Business





People queuing up to sell gold as prices soar



Eeb & Reuters




Mumbai, December 30: The new-found buoyancy in gold prices has led to a new situation. More and more people in the country, home to the world’s biggest gold stocks, are queuing up to sell their jewellery as prices soar to five-year peaks.

Traders said on Monday they estimate the supply of scrap metal has jumped four-fold to 50 kgs a day in the Mumbai market, the main consuming centre. That has squeezed imports and traders say the trend is likely to continue for the next two weeks if global prices remain high as domestic demand was dull due to an inauspicious period for weddings. Rajiv Popley, a director of jewellery trading firm Popley Gold, said the volume of new ornaments sold in exchange for old gold at his showrooms had almost doubled in the past one month.



“Inflow of recycled gold has shot up as high prices have attracted many consumers to dispose of their old jewellery,” said Prithvi Raj Kothari, a gold importer. Standard mint gold was available for Rs 4,570 per 10 gram on December 20, 2001. However, by December 20, 2002, prices shot by 21.66 per cent to Rs 5,560. “With tension remaining in the Gulf, gold prices will remain firm in 2003. If a war breaks out between the US and Iraq, gold may go through the roof.... and even touch Rs 6,000 or Rs 7,000 levels,” he said.

Traders buy the metal from consumers at slightly lower than market prices and sell the recycled gold at below import costs to jewellers. “The import business is very poor at the moment,” said Narendra Singh Rathore, a gold trader based in the northwestern city of Jaipur, a leading gold importing centre. “Traders are waiting for some stability in the prices before resuming imports.”

Spot gold was quoted at $349/350 an ounce at 0720 GMT in Asia, up from late New York $348.90/349.50 on Friday. It was traded at about $319 a month ago and at $279 a year earlier.

Local prices track global trends as India imports 70 per cent of its annual gold requirements of 750 to 800 tonnes. World gold prices have soared on weakness in the US dollar and political tensions over Iraq and North Korea. Prices of the safe-haven metal tend to rise when the dollar weakens as bullion becomes cheaper to non-US investors. Traders said imports could rise after two week.Jewellery accounts for about 85 per cent of India’s annual demand for gold.


////I always believed that this is the dawn of modern india.

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re: RSS run schools

Most people (especially Pakis) in this forum are talking about RSS run ``Hindu madrassas`` without researching into what these schools really are. What are these schools really upto? Are they really spreading anti-muslim bias? I looked into their web-site and i do not see anything wrong with their agenda. Go to the url: www.vidhyabharati.org and see for yourself. Here is their agenda:

a. Evolution of an alternative model of school education which is more in tune with Indian culture and ethos.
b. Provision of additional educational facilities partly in backward/rural and tribal areas.
c. Providing quality education at moderate rates to the children of middle class.
d. Propagation of Indian Culture & Tradition.
e. Developing a sense of national pride and self confidence among the new generation.
f. Generating a sense of patriotism and love for the country among the youths of the country.
g. Promotion of Sanskrit, Music,Yoga and Physical Education at school level.
h. Proper emphasis on development of moral and spiritual values among students.
i. Creation of a cadre of competent and dedicated teachers to serve the society.
j. Stemming the rising tide of western influence on Indian youths in the name of modernization
I went to a ``Tamil`` school in Delhi, where i learnt everything but my culture. I was not taught yoga, i did not learn anything about our great sages and saints, not even about people like Vivekananda or SriAurobindo. I can say that education imparted to Indians today does not leave them proud of what they are. Pride in oneself is very important for national development. I mean an ``all-encompassing`` pride not the narrow minded variety that Taliban espoused.
Christian misssionaries have wrought havoc in the North-Eastern states, so much so that the tribals there do not even have a script of their own and rely upon a Roman script! RSS is educating the youth and tribals there. This will go a long way in national integration.
Muslims in India have traversed a seperate path so much so that anything that a hindu does today sounds anti-muslim to them, even singing ``vande mataram``.
RSS has its own agenda just like christian missionary schools and muslim ``madrassas`` (Is there another kind?) have their`s. Nobody said that christian missionary schools have been spreading hatred against hindus. Infact, if you have attended anyone of these schools, you would know that in more than subtle ways, they denigrade hindu culture. Muslim madrassas, needless to say, are in a different world. They teach Qoran (nothing wrong with that), some Arabic, may be some maths and little else. They do not impart computer education, education in science to their children. I think the muslims in India ought to embrace the larger hindu culture and be proud that they are in a multi-ethnic society that guarantees so much freedom to minorities. As M.J. Akbar says: India is the only country in the developing world where muslims have enjoyed more than 50 years of uninterrupted democracy.
It is also worth remembering what Sardar Patel said many decades ago (he was a die-hard secularist, unlike many Gujjus today): any nation`s minorities are safe only as long as they have the good wishes of its majority community. Let us never forget that.
Sridhar

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Sadna:

``Want to add that I look forward to the day when the Pope is an Indian and the most respected centre of learning in Islam in the world is in India``

That`ll never happen. For all the talk of Islamic Solidarity and support for Palestine etc etc. I have yet to meet an Arab who looks upon subcontinental Muslims as equals and yet to meet a Pakistani/Indian Muslim who has genuine fondness for Arabs.

Even an Ummah true believer like UrsTruly would have to stifle his gag reflex when he hangs out with his Arab buddies and they kiss him on both cheeks and shower his face with spittle when they talk.

On a more seriuous note, the Deobandi and Barelvi schools of thought are from India, and are indeed well respected in the sub-continent. However, due to lack of patronage they are no longer respected centres of learning. I think Al Azhar Univ in Cairo holds pride of place.

Mr Talib
Want to add that I look forward to the day when the Pope is an Indian and the most respected centre of learning in Islam in the world is in India.

re: 12-head

...not all muslims are namak haram like you ...get over it...

#97 by arjun_m

If you read about the recent fatwa in Canada on not greeting kafirs on their holidays, it was a group of muslims who was first outraged by it and forced the issuing mosque to retract it (the mosque lied by saying it had really not issued the fatwa).

Too bad you miss such details. If at all you can help yourself out of the gutter the view will improve...

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There you go! The grass-eating Hanuman brigade to our south has nothing better than to imitate Pakistan.

We all have been learning from a long time that Pakistan was created on the day Muhammad bin Qasim set his victorious foot upon the soil of Sindh. Thereby, we produce confused retards who as govt. servants take three leisurely breaks a day for namaaz. Sabb karobaar Thapp!

And now you murli parshads are trying to beat us at our own game??

Outrage!!


[From today`s NYT]

Hijacking India`s History
By KAI FRIESE


EW DELHI
While some of us lament the repetition of history, the men who run India are busy rewriting it. Their efforts, regrettably, will only be bolstered by the landslide victory earlier this month of the Bharatiya Janata Party in the Western India state of Gujarat.

The B.J.P. has led this country`s coalition government since 1999. But India`s Hindu nationalists have long had a quarrel with history. They are unhappy with the notion that the most ancient texts of Hinduism are associated with the arrival of the Vedic ``Aryan`` peoples from the Northwest. They don`t like the dates of 1500 to 1000 B.C. ascribed by historians to the advent of the Vedic peoples, the forebears of Hinduism, or the idea that the Indus Valley civilization predates Vedic civilization. And they certainly can`t stand the implication that Hinduism, like the other religious traditions of India, evolved through a mingling of cultures and peoples from different lands.

Last month the National Council of Educational Research and Training, the central government body that sets the national curriculum and oversees education for students up to the 12th grade, released the first of its new school textbooks for social sciences and history. Teachers and academics protested loudly. The schoolbooks are notable for their elision of many awkward facts, like the assassination of Mahatma Gandhi by a Hindu nationalist in 1948.

The authors of the textbook have promised to make revisions to the chapter about Gandhi. But what is more remarkable is how they have added several novel chapters to Indian history.

Thus we have a new civilization, the ``Indus-Saraswati civilization`` in place of the well-known Indus Valley civilization, which is generally agreed to have appeared around 4600 B.C. and to have lasted for about 2,000 years. (The all-important addition of ``Saraswati,`` an ancient river central to Hindu myth, is meant to show that Indus Valley civilization was actually part of Vedic civilization.) We have a chapter on ``Vedic civilization`` — the earliest recognizable ``Hindu culture`` in India and generally acknowledged not to have appeared before about 1700 B.C. — that appears without a single date.

The council has also promised to test the ``S.Q.,`` or ``Spiritual Quotient,`` of gifted students in addition to their I.Q. Details of this plan are not elaborated upon; the council`s National Curriculum Framework for School Education says only that ``a suitable mechanism for locating the talented and the gifted will have to be devised.``

More recent history, of course, is not covered in school textbooks. So we will have to wait to see how such books might treat this month`s elections in Gujarat. They were held in the wake of the brutal pogrom of last February and March, in which more than 1,000 Muslims were murdered and at least 100,000 more lost their homes and property. The chief minister of Gujarat, who is among the leading lights of the B.J.P., justified this atrocity as a ``natural reaction`` to an act of arson on a train in the Gujarati town of Godhra, in which 59 Hindu pilgrims lost their lives.

The ruling party`s subsequent election campaign was conducted against the rather literal backdrop of the Godhra incident: painted billboards of the burning railway carriage. The murdered Muslims were not accorded the same tragic status, although their pleas for justice created a backlash that played neatly into the campaign theme of Hindu Pride. It was, of course, a great success.

The carefully nurtured sense of Hindu grievance has been nursed rather than sated by acts of mob violence: the destruction of the 15th-century mosque in Ayodhya, for instance, or the persecution of Christians in earlier pogroms in Gujarat`s Dangs district. The B.J.P., along with its Hindu-supremacist cohorts, the R.S.S. (Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh) and the V.H.P. (Vishwa Hindu Parishad), has a seemingly irresistible will to power. (The R.S.S. and the V.H.P. are not political parties but ``social service organizations`` that have served as springboards to power for B.J.P. leaders like Narendra Modi, chief minister of Gujarat.)

In vanguard states like Gujarat, thousands of students follow the uncompromisingly chauvinistic R.S.S. textbooks. They will learn that ``Aryan culture is the nucleus of Indian culture, and the Aryans were an indigenous race . . . and creators of the Vedas`` and that ``India itself was the original home of the Aryans.`` They will learn that Indian Christians and Muslims are ``foreigners.``

But they still have much to learn. I once visited the bookshop at the R.S.S. headquarters in Nagpur. On sale were books that show humankind originated in the upper reaches of that mythical Indian river, the Saraswati, and pamphlets that explain the mysterious Indus Valley seals, with their indecipherable Harrapan script: they are of Vedic origin.

After I visited the bookshop I stopped to talk to a group of young boys who live together in an R.S.S. hostel. They were a sweet bunch of kids, between 8 and 11 years old. They all wanted to grow up to be either doctors or pilots. Very good, I said. And what did they learn in school? Did they learn about religion? About Hinduism, Christianity?

They were silent for a few seconds — until their teacher nodded. A bespectacled kid spoke up. ``Christians burst into houses and make converts of Hindus by bribing them or beating them.``

He said it without malice, just a breathless eagerness, as if it were something he had learned in social science class. Perhaps it was.


Kai Friese is a journalist and magazine editor in New Delhi.

Arjunji,

re:
What is NYC? A collection of old white men sitting in smoke filled rooms making policy for you....or the government you elect?

Actually neither so much as a system of you scratch my back I`ll scratch yours of payoffs and under the table handshakes..its been the way things have been done since Tammany Hall and Boss Tweed. Right now, if you are a New Yorker, youre thinking what a pissy lack of vision Mayor Bloomberg is and wondering if Giuliani will relinquish the last vestiges of control over 9/11 relief funds-and let me remind you, he may have lived up to the expectations of being a mayor after the WTC attack, but I doubt the Senate will appreciate El Duche`s old tricks of stacking art censorship panels with his divorce lawyers, trashing NYC teachers, or setting NYC firemen and policemen in situations of conflict during negotiations...but all these profs. are for working stiffs, right, so why give a ?

As for your other remarks about buying union products, this holiday we bought work made by artisans from Ireland. But I am forced to agree, it is very difficult to find products not made in China or other non unionised countries. We still try.

Customer support centres



Many American and British companies have set up customer support call centres in Bangalore and India is expected to earn $25 billion annually in the next five years - three times more than what the software industry in the country earns today.

Just two years ago, virtually no such call centres existed in India, but now multinational organizations like General Electric, British Airways and Dell Computers have set up shops in Bangalore. By doing so, these MNCs have cut down their customer support expenses by 40 per cent.

It does not take much in terms of technology or finances to establish a customer support call centre. The key components of a call centre are leased international telephone links, which are connected to toll-free telephone numbers of foreign MNCs, computer networks and local workers who are good at the English language.

In urban centres all over Pakistan, there is a large number of people who can communicate effectively in English. This segment of the country`s population, with better communication skills through training, can be transformed into an efficient workforce, each earning between $200 and $300 a month, thus making millions of dollars available at the national level.

The Pakistan government, too, should offer incentives to local and foreign companies to establish customer support call centres in the country.

T. N. KHAN

Lombard, USA

/////Khan sitting in the US is unaware that call centers do exist in pakistan, they are the jihadic call centers to coordinate jihadic activities. All of the Osama tapes come through pakistan, the yemeni chap, the top al-quida man was arrested, not in the border areas with afgh, but in the heart of karachi. Khan, you must be happy to know that the call eneters are busy, they are prviding a lot of income to the people.

You should also know that ones a jihadi turns into a shaheed on his departure to heaven, the charitable organisations of pakistan provide so much of help to the shaheed family. Pl send your donations to www.jihadic-charity.isi.pk.

re: mohar11

{PS: FarzanaVersey in post #76 is opposed to the use of the term ``madrasa`` for describing the hindu right-wing schools. I hope she is NOT trying to brush the muslim right-wing elements under the carpet. }


...you have any doubt?...a bigot ranting about other bigots...haha....why do you think she finds an audience on chowk (i.e. lots of pakistanis) but not in the mainstream indian media, who for some reason have no problem with other muslim journalists such as mj akbar, seema mustafa, etc. but do with her?....

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to the Indian and Pakistani ullu kay pathay arguing here about which country is better,

give it up, the whole subcontinent is a wasteland, Pakistan and India both in different ways..... just look at yourselves patting each other on the back and spitting hatred into each others faces, spreading negativity.......that`s all your good for.

go do something nice for someone for a change.

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``Hindu Madrassa`` - very interesting combination of words used by the author to describe the phenomenon of right-wing education in schools run by RSS. I hope the author realises the full implications of such descriptions.

Obviously, as the author pointed out, RSS-run schools have a very prominent streak of negative agenda which could potentially bloom into a full-blown virulent anti-minority sentiments among the future generation of Hindus - thus propelling the secular coutry into a very dangerous religious conflict. Such attempts by the hindu right-wing types who are running these ``hindu madrasas`` must be resisted by all means.

While we are at it - what do we do about the actual madrassas ( i.e. muslim madrasas ) - thousands of which have been running all over the country funded by deep-pocketed fundamentalist wahabi Saudi benefactors? Many of these madrasas claim to do exactly the same as the RSS-run `sishu mandirs` claim to do i.e. provide low cost education to the poor with an extra emphasis on their respective religions.

There are a lot of similarities between the madrasas and RSS-run `shisu mandirs` - that is why the author has dubbed the `shisu mandirs` as ``hindu madrasas``. Now - we are going to eliminate such hindu madrasas. Do we also eliminate muslim madrasas? Wihtout doubt - some of them have been centers of minority fundamentalism ( SIMI type people ) for quite sometime.

In fact - the RSS types argue that - the recent surge of hindu madrasas is in direct response to the un-regulated muslim madrasas that have been sprouting all over the country with help of saudi money and that many of these madrasas have very diabolic designs for the country considering the fact that the money is coming from very fundamentalist muslim individuals.

While on the subject of right-wing education in the country - I think it is important to focus on both sides of the ``great divide``.


PS: FarzanaVersey in post #76 is opposed to the use of the term ``madrasa`` for describing the hindu right-wing schools. I hope she is NOT trying to brush the muslim right-wing elements under the carpet.

re:#81 by stuka

``The intellectual capital of the Hindutva movement is led by Brahmins.``
How so? please explain.
Sridhar

Saminasha:

``No Macy`s doesnt care...which is why I buy at places that support unions...and it still doesnt take a lot of brains to come up with capitalism...it does however, seem to require much less soul and character. ``

Have you ever lived in an actual socialist society? To me unionism is Datta Samant calling a strike and bringing the whole city of Bombay to stand still, depriving the poorest of the poor from making their daily wages. Unionism is rampant in the state of Kerala, where literacy is highest along with unemployment because there is no capital investment. Unions have their importance. Unions help in mantaining a balance. But unionism gone rampant brings about economic ruin as the study of any socialist state will tell you.

As far as living wages is concerned, I agree with your point on living wages for teachers, but ultimately you cannot dictate to society how much to pay for a certain skill. The gap can certainly be filled with activism directed towards making society learn butnot by mandation.

re: ferozk

{Again, thank you for answering the reasons behind my questions and as you have proved by your own answers that the Indians are not perfect. Hence, when you claim a superority over Pakistanis and Pakistan, you are in fact preaching hypocricy and simply come across as being hypocritical. }

...so according to this logic of yours, america is no better than the taliban because americans too have imperfections in their society?...are you kidding?????....

Saminasha:

``No Macy`s doesnt care...which is why I buy at places that support unions...and it still doesnt take a lot of brains to come up with capitalism...it does however, seem to require much less soul and character. ``

Have you ever lived in an actual socialist society? To me unionism is Datta Samant calling a strike and bringing the whole city of Bombay to stand still, depriving the poorest of the poor from making their daily wages. Unionism is rampant in the state of Kerala, where literacy is highest along with unemployment because there is no capital investment. Unions have their importance. Unions help in mantaining a balance. But unionism gone rampant brings about economic ruin as the study of any socialist state will tell you.

As far as living wages is concerned, I agree with your point on living wages for teachers, but ultimately you cannot dictate to society how much to pay for a certain skill. The gap can certainly be filled with activism directed towards making society learn butnot by mandation.

Sridhar:

The intellectual capital of the Hindutva movement is led by Brahmins.

FerozeK:

``Could you please explain, how you are better than Pakistan and Pakistanis? ``

1984, 1992, 2002...IN TERMS OF WHAT WE HAVE DONE TO OUR OWN CITIZENS WE ARE WORSE OFF THAN YOU. There is one lement of a false analogy. If there had been a complete transfer of religions in 1947 then we would not have anti Muslim violence either. India made a deliberate choice to remain secular and it is the obligation of the state to mantain that commitment.

Where our state has done better is that it has not yet ceded control to non government agencies as far as Pakistan or the West is concerned. That`s why the entire world views Pakistan differently from India. They would not care about what you do to your own citizens if the Islamic groups were only concerned with Pakistan, only targetted Pakistanis etc. Our comarative advantage is just that our extremist groups are inward looking and are not looking to export a Hindu revolution abroad. The state has control on India`s external projection, your does not. Simple.

Romair:

``i.e. true Hinduvta parties would want shudars to remain shudars. ``

You have no clue about Hindutva then. There is a big difference between Islamic and Hindutva movements. Islamic movements are dogmatic. They are against the corruption of the specifics in the Koran. Hindutva otoh is led by, and believed in, by those who are most disgusted by the weakness of Hinduism. The biggest weakness of Hinduism is ofcourse the caste system as it sets Hindu against Hindu, thereby weakening it. Ergo, do not get rid of the caste system but get rid of hierarchy of caste. In that sense Hindutva propents are closer to Islam than regular castist Hindus. You are right about the anti-Muslim bias though. Unlike ordinary secular Hindus who may have a political animus against Pakistan (like I have an animus against the Pak Army and ISI but not against Pakis who are ordinary Joes like anyone else) these guys have a sense of historical grievance against all Muslims. Indian especially because they are a reminder of past humiliation.

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Mr. Rasheed Talib:
I do hope your paper gets exposure in the Indian media. Though I think you have consolidated the misplaced view of Islam by calling the revival of Hindu thought in modern education as ‘madrassa’, much as all resurgent regressive movements are referred to as ‘Talibanisation’. However, you need not worry too much about not being an expert on Hindutva, for it is not a religion or an ideology; it is a mere knee-jerk reaction.

‘Hindu madrassas’ have existed in subtle forms always – be it the cultural institutions where mythology is ingrained, or the tilt in school books where the villains are the outsiders even if they contributed considerably to our society. More aggressively, the RSS and Shiv Sena shakhas have been focused on promoting religious thought while overtly talking about karma.

I disagree when you say that India under the Hindutva hold will become a mirror image of Islamic Pakistan. Pakistan was created as an Islamic Republic, so on at least that one point it has no conflict within itself. A ‘secular’ India would get breathless trying to shove its version of Hindutva down so many throats. That is when someone gets the hang of what Hindutva really is.

Regards,
Farzana

Mr. Rasheed Talib:
I do hope your paper gets exposure in the Indian media. Though I think you have consolidated the misplaced view of Islam by calling the revival of Hindu thought in modern education as ‘madrassa’, much as all resurgent regressive movements are referred to as ‘Talibanisation’. However, you need not worry too much about not being an expert on Hindutva, for it is not a religion or an ideology; it is a mere knee-jerk reaction.

‘Hindu madrassas’ have existed in subtle forms always – be it the cultural institutions where mythology is ingrained, or the tilt in school books where the villains are the outsiders even if they contributed considerably to our society. More aggressively, the RSS and Shiv Sena shakhas have been focused on promoting religious thought while overtly talking about karma.

I disagree when you say that India under the Hindutva hold will become a mirror image of Islamic Pakistan. Pakistan was created as an Islamic Republic, so on at least that one point it has no conflict within itself. A ‘secular’ India would get breathless trying to shove its version of Hindutva down so many throats. That is when someone gets the hang of what Hindutva really is.

Regards,
Farzana

Re:ferozek#15 and #47
I am approaching the education issue from a supply and demand concept. You are absolutely correct that in a modern economy, there is no demand for people with a half-baked distorted schooling in religion or mythology. Hence the lack of demand should eliminate the supply since these people will not be able to make a living and future generations will avoid such schooling. The only way such schooling can continue is if there is a strong financial support externally to keep it going, which is pretty rare in India. Non resident Indians cannot match Saudis in terms of funding such institutions in India.
On your other questions, I think the overall communal situation in India is indeed getting worse. There are two key reasons for that. The first reason is the rise of the BJP and the Saffron brigade. They have managed to steer the country towards increased religious bigotry and communalism, to the extent that secularism is rapidly becoming a dirty word in Indian politics.
The second reason is the continuous tensions with Pakistan coupled with the intense militancy in Kashmir over the past 12 years. The daily death toll of 10-12 people, the occasional massacares, attacks on temples, hijacking of planes, Kargil etc are exerting immense pressure on the secular fabric of India. Pakistan`s policy of bleeding India is certainly having an impact, which is essentially turning the entire population towards communalism and ironically benefiting the BJP in the elections. It is a well known fact that the Kargil war enabled BJP to consolidate its hold in New Delhi. The recent events in Gujarat including the reelection of Modi are an indication of how things are shaping up and it is not a pretty sight. Since Indo-Pak relations are not going to improve any time soon, things are going to get worse. The only hope is that if there is enough economic growth, the people will be too busy to get involved in communalism but then Gujarat is one of the most industrialized state in India.

Re:Ashok#39
The article that you posted is really fascinating. It is the first time I found someone analyzing hinduism`s weaknesses so candidly and logically.

Re: nasah # 46

Bravo! That was, by far, the best interact post on this thread! Bravo!

Re: Temporal # 50

Yes, I know! ;)

Re: Rsaxena # 49

Yes, bigotry is not institutionalized in the Indian constitution, but it is, rather efficiently, undermining it. Yes, you are right to say that incidents like Gujrat happen in every nation of the world, but does that condone act itself and justifies it? Murder happens every nation of the world, but does that make it right? Yes, you are absolutely correct to say that human beings are not perfect and being human beings, neither are the Indians perfect.

To quote you, ``...no minority burns a train of the majority and gets away with it...`` speaks volumes of a moral apartheid devoid of a political conscience, which justifies the acts of majoritrianism and condones intimidation. When you say that, you justify facism and facism always justifies itself in the name of justice.

Again, thank you for answering the reasons behind my questions and as you have proved by your own answers that the Indians are not perfect. Hence, when you claim a superority over Pakistanis and Pakistan, you are in fact preaching hypocricy and simply come across as being hypocritical.

Ciao

...romair, romair, romair, where art thou?...


``Pak protests against INS list, summons US ambassador

Pakistan has expressed ``disappointment`` at Washington`s decision to include its nationals in the National Security Entry-Exit Registration System, which requires them to register with the US government.

US ambassador to Pakistan, Nancy Powell was summoned to meet Foreign Minister Khurshid Muhammad Kasuri and.

A foreign ministry spokesman said, ``The minister conveyed Pakistan`s deep sense of disappointment and concern over the inclusion of the country in the list prepared by the US Immigration and Naturalisation Service.``

Kasuri said that the new measures are ``excessive and unnecessary as far as Pakistani nationals are concerned,`` he added.

The inclusion has created ``unprecedented difficulties`` for those living in and visiting the US, he said.

The move brings over 100,000 US-based Pakistanis under direct monitoring by the police.

Early this month the US justice department had added Pakistan and Saudi Arabia to the list of countries, whose citizens are subject to additional scrutiny when they enter the US.

The list also includes Afghanistan, Algeria, Bahrain, Eritrea, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Libya, Morocco, North Korea, Oman, Qatar, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, Tunisia, the United Arab Emirates, and Yemen. ``

The author`s description of the so-called Hindu madrasah is no different from what lakhs of middle-class Indian kids experience in the ubiquitous ``convent`` schools, what with compulsory recitations of Hail Mary`s every day--- I can`t remember this in any way diminshing the faith of some of those who went to school with me--- perhaps, like the convent schools, the RSS schools will also tone down the rhetoric over time when they find they have few if any takers..... let`s face it, which educated Hindu seriously believes Hanuman brunt Lanka with his tail and Ram was as uttam a purush as he`s made out to be?
Secondly--historically, it`s only Christianity and Islam which are the missionary religions. Taking the missionary route is something new in Hinduism and hopefully dies anatural death soon. After all, we are better than them :)
Nice article though. Well-written and cogent..... good to read.

I have only two short comments. I want to thank Sadna #10 for her very penetrating critique of my Hindu madrasas piece, and to thank to Layman #9 for pointing out my error about the date of the Babri masjid demolition: it was indeed 1992, 10 years ago, not 20 years as I erroneously wrote. Rasheed

re: 12-head #65

...that was weak...try again...

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re: 12-head #63

...next time banglas are hanging from trees when floods strike, there won`t be any indian helicopters to go bring them down....

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.......... all i can say is that the horrible hindoos are just as bad as us, if not worse .......... somehow this gives me a perverse sort of satisfaction ....... misery loves company and any time we can show that they are a little worse than us makes us feel better ........ they have bigger slums, they can`t feed their people, they have sewers running down the middle of their streets, they suffer from malnutrition, they are more miserable than us ......... that makes us happy .......... it makes me happy........ who gives a flip if we are headed to hell in a hand basket, as long as they are with us we are okay ..............

............ oh, i hate the hindoos sooooo much .............

[To successfully oppose RSS, we need a truly anti-caste, secular organization that aims to promote harmony between the various sections of Indian society by reconcilation and direct their efforts towards economic progress and prosperity.]

Given the fact that Savarkar envisaged a hindu rashtra inclusive of all the hindus, without the negative aspects of the casteism,how can you recommend opposition to the RSS which is following what has always been preached by Savarkar.

re: pankaj #59

...why waste your time explaining that to this idiot...remember, he`s the guy who said everyone should wear a paki-flag on his t-shirt to receive favorable treatment from americans post 9-11...the list of his gaffes is long...

Romair#58

``There are two very interesting aspects of the policies presented on these websites: these groups have very progressive policies for India - women`s rights, technology, self-reliance, peasants rights etc. Much of this goes against the official caste system that is part of Brahmanism, hence I don`t think these parties can really be called Hinduvta, in that sense, i.e. true Hinduvta parties would want shudars to remain shudars.
``

This is a common mistake that people not familiar with the complexities of Indian polity make. If you want to derive a true understanding of RSS you will have to read ``We or Our Nationhood Defined`` by Veer Savarkar, the father figure of Hindutva. Also what you state is completely wrong that the Hindutva parties would like Sudras to remain as sudras. Infact they would strive for exactly the opposite. Savarkar, himself an agnostic, was aware that the weakness of the Hindu society arises from its caste system. He, therefore was dead against it. He wanted to fashion the Hindu society along egalitarian lines by uniting ALL the Hindus under one common banner. That is why you find BJP faring bad in the highly casteist and rural society of Bihar while it achieves tremendous success in the relatively urban, casteless and egalitarian society of Gujrat. The ``cultural nationalism`` that BJP espouses is originally his idea. Thus RSS is a sort of political movement that aims to create a Hindu Rashtra not a Brahmanical Rashtra. By ``Hindu``, Savarkar meant anybody who identified himself with Hinduism. In spirit, it is a great movement for Hindus and it has the capability to absorb the progressive Hindu thoughts.

Its major weakness is its ``negativism``. Its stand on the Hindu unity is great, but the purpose of this unity is destructive, i.e. persecution of minorities based on a shared feeling of historical injustice against Hindus. Had this unity been for a more constructive purpose, for instance like a religious reform movement of Vivekananda or Dayanand Saraswati, it would have worked wonderfully to revitalize the Hindu society and convert it into a modern progressive force. Instead RSS chose to unite the Hindu society for a destructive purpose by erecting walls of hatred. It capitalises on the sense of insecurity among Hindus. The tragedy is that most of the other parties except BJP in India want to divide the Hindu society to further their own party interests. You are right in one aspect- because of this ``nagative`` purpose RSS has degenerated into a vindictive party that could destabilise the Indian polity by internal strifes. The Hindu society needs another Vivekananda to soothe Hindu psyche, to reassure it and lead it towards a progressive future. If one wants to direct the immense energy released from Hindu-unification towards a constructive purpose of reformation and progress, he will have to appeal to the civilizational consciousness of the Indians. I doubt the so called ``secular`` politicians of India who are too busy playing their ``caste-cards`` to fragment the Hindu society can do that. The anger and frustation generated by these casteist policies is sure to force people to side with RSS sooner or later and that may not be good for India. To successfully oppose RSS, we need a truly anti-caste, secular organization that aims to promote harmony between the various sections of Indian society by reconcilation and direct their efforts towards economic progress and prosperity.

There are some interesting websites that every South Asian should visit. They are:

www.bjp.org (The official BJP site)
www.vhp.org (The official VHP site)
www.rss.org (The official Rashtrya Swayamsevak Sangh site)
www.shivsena.org (The official Shiv Sena site)
www.bajrangdal.org (The official Bajrang Dal site)
www.narendramodi.org (The official site of Gujrat CM Modi)

The reason I want to encourage people visiting these sites is to get better informed - not to put down India or to indulge in attacks and counterattacks. I went through some of these sites and the policies of these parties became quite clear. They are quite straightforward on what they want for India and the best way to expose it to everyone is to quote directly from their site:

For those who don`t know, RSS is a parent group. Underneath it, it has various different wings and alliances that handle various different areas - BJP is the political wing, VHP is the religious wing. RSS also acts as an umbrella alliance for groups like Shiv Sena and Bajrang Dal.

These groups together are currently running India. Their sister branch BJP has been elected into power again and again through free and fair elections. BJP looks towards the RSS for organizational direction and towards the VHP for religious direction. In essence, BJP has to perform within the loose boundaries laid out by the RSS and VHP.

There are two very interesting aspects of the policies presented on these websites: these groups have very progressive policies for India - women`s rights, technology, self-reliance, peasants rights etc. Much of this goes against the official caste system that is part of Brahmanism, hence I don`t think these parties can really be called Hinduvta, in that sense, i.e. true Hinduvta parties would want shudars to remain shudars.

The other strking feature is that when it comes to Muslims, all progressive polices go out the door. Muslims, as you will see in the quotes below, are the cause of most Indian problems, according to these own websites.

Due to the above, I don`t think these parties are Hindu nationalist parties (with Hindu meaning the religion), they are anti-Muslim parties and pro-India parties (with India being equated with Hinduism).

Following are some interesting quotes from these websites:

BJP
----

``Majority of the Muslims of India are converts to that faith from Hinduism through force of circumstances. They are still Hindu in many essential ways and, in a free, prosperous, progressive India, they would find it the most natural thing in the world to revert to their ancient faith and ways of life.`` (According to BJP, this quote is from Gandhi http://www.bjp.org/history.htm)

``The RSS, along with millions of people, did not approve of Gandhiji`s Muslim appeasement policy - starting with support of the Khilafat movement - but it had the greatest respect for the Mahatma. (http://www.bjp.org/history.htm)

``Ayodhya united the people.`` (http://www.bjp.org/history.htm)

``The BJP is not going to be apologetic or ashamed of its agenda and the Gujarat experiment shall be replicated in all the States before the next elections to reach the target of 300 seats,`` (http://www.bjp.org/history.htm)

``We are not going to be on the defensive any longer. If anything is wrong, it is minoritism`` (http://www.bjp.org/history.htm)

``The founding of the BJS in 1950 by S.P. Mookerji was largely caused by the merciless persecution of Hindus in East Pakistan and the inept handling of their case by the Indian government.`` (http://www.bjp.org/pomi.htm)

RSS
-----

``The R.S.S. stands for the spread of Hindu culture`` (http://www.rss.org/organisation.htm)

VHP
-----

``Hindutva and nationalism in Bharat are synonymous....

``The patriotic Hindus all over the world aspire to construct a magnificent temple at Sri Rama Janma Bhumi in Ayodhya in accordance with the model approved by the revered saints.....

``Secessionist demands and propaganda in Kashmir or anywhere else in the country, or indulging in violent activity will be ruthlessly repressed.....

``The status of second official language accorded by certain states to Urdu in foreign script will be withdrawn.....

``The distorted presentation of modern, social and cultural history of Bharat will be re-written by honest, patriotic and learned historians and archaeologists. The teaching syllabus shall be accordingly reformed.``

Bajrang Dal
--------------

``Muslims are trying to enforce Islamic laws in India and going as far as murdering our women but when Hindus fight back, this is termed as Hindu militancy/extremism......

``While the world is being terrorized by Islam, PBS has gone into recruiting more terrorists for Islam. Seems that PBS supports terrorism indirectly. It is in the best interest of all citizens of the U.S.A. to stop funding PBS``........

``We are now assured that Muslims will not harm any Hindus
in Gujarat via their terrorist tactics! We will see to it that the flag of Hindutva protects each and every Hindu women and child from the barbaric Muslims! The Islamic murderers must understand that things have changed and are going to continue to change throughout India. Muslims must decide how they want to live in India.........

``Hindus in India are waking up to the fact that Hindutva is the only answer to Muslim barbarity in Bharat........

``VHP has decided that it will try to back Muslims into Hinduism. However it is not a new idea for this religious organization. A special wing ‘Dharma Prasar Vibhag’ is doing hard to fulfill this mission........
(http://hinduunity.org/index.html)

Shiv Sena:
------------

Interestingly, the Shiv Sena site is the only site that does not openly say anything against Muslims.

---------------------

I am not a secularist (nor am I a religionist). Hence, the fact that all these organizations go against secularism does not bother me. I think the concept of secularism and religion are masks behind which people hide to commit all kinds of crimes. The brainwashed secular or religious cadres only concentrate on secularism or religion and follow these organization in their crimes.

Hence I will always oppose both secular or religious organizations if they are not humane, i.e. I oppose Turkish and Saudi govts. equally.

However, the RSS and its children organizations are not proposing religion for the right reasons. They are promoting it for the wrong reasons. The fact that they are so egalitarian on all issues related to the Hindu population, but completely opposite for Muslims is even more dangerous. There sites are filled with very progressive policies for all sects of Hinduism (in essence they are not promoting a Brahman agenda) or hate-filled policies against Muslims.

The above would be alright for India if it was a completely Hindu state. But it isn`t. What in the world is India going to do with its 140 million Muslim population and 25 million Christian population (interestingly these sites don`t seem offended by Sikhs - even though the birth of Sikhism by Guru Nanak (who was a Hindu) was against the Brahman system in place in India).

I would suggest to our Indian friends that they stop worrying about Pakistan. If the above websites are anything to go by, India, in another ten years will have far more domestic issues to worry about than Pakistan. The RSS policies will create a prosperous and powerful Hindu class and a completely scared, frustrated, and sidelined Muslim population.

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to pakistanis on chowk

there is 2 huge differences between VHS/RSS/BJP and Taleban/Jamaat types. The RSS/VHP/BJP are not in any way restricting the political and economic freedoms of vast majority of Hindus (at least the forward/backward castes if not SC/ST). The Taleban/Jamaat agenda followed in Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, tribal belt of Pakistan severely restricts the political, economic and social freedoms of Muslim majorities they represent. It leads to economically vibrant India versus a laggard Pakistan.

The second is that BJP/RSS/VHP actions are restricted to India. Lot of Islamic types cross borders causing major international problems and inviting nasty responses like the US air strikes in Afghanistan.

``In Pakistan, the phenomena of increasing madrassas can be attributed as the failure of the state to provide equitable education to its citizens. The levels of religious extermism in Pakistan are more attributable to the sense of economic frustrations than they are a result of Saudi Arabia`s Wahhabi domiated and funded financing of Pakistani madrassas. The religious and secular polarization in Pakistan resulted from the fact that the goverment, though encouraging maddrassa education, failed to provide a mechanism, which would have intergrated the graduates of these religious schools into the economy of Pakistan``

above is from post 15 of ferzok, the writings of a typical closet jihadist. What he fails to mention is that the madrasa were set up specifically by the military to create taliban, to support the doctrine strategic depth by creating a ``friendly` islamic state in tune with the pak values. A large part of the madrasa producta also are absoebed into the pak military.

Having set up the madrasa for a specific purpose, it is pathetic to see an educated pakistani complain that the madrasa products are not trained. They are trained in hatred of the kafirs, they then seek out the ``non-innocents` in kashmir, kenya, chehniya, you name it.

It is also well known that once a paki become a shaheed, the so called welfare organisations provide support for the family, and considering the strong family values, madrasa education is a good econom,ic investment for the family.

200,000 madrasa will not flourish in pakistan if it were a total useless entity for the pakistanis. It is tme that people like ferzok come out and tell the world about the reality in pakistan, rather than providing a white wash in modern economic jargon that has not much relevanct to the pak society. For once why cant you write about the economic benefits to a shaheed family.

Islamic law divides the world into dar al-Islam (abode of Islam) and dar al-harb (abode of war—that is, of non-Muslim rule). Most modern branches of Islam stress the inner, spiritual jihad. But Islamic law also states that all nations must surrender to Islamic rule, if not its faith. Until that time, all adult, male, and able-bodied Muslims are expected to take part in hostile jihads against non-Muslim neighbors and neighboring lands. The Qur`an (Koran) states that those who die in this type of jihad automatically become martyrs of the faith and are awarded a special place in heaven.

For Muslims, there exist two kinds of non-Muslim enemies: kafir (nonbelievers in Islam) and ahl al-kitab (people of the book). Kafir, such as Buddhists and Hindus (see Buddhism; Hinduism), must either convert to Islam or face execution. Once converted to Islam it is a capital offense to renounce the faith. People of the book include Jews, Christians, and followers of Zoroastrianism. These people need only submit to Muslim political authority to avoid or end a jihad. They may keep their original faith, but their status becomes dhimmi (a “protected” non-Muslim) and they must pay a prescribed poll tax.

Microsoft® Encarta® Encyclopedia 2002. © 1993-2001 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

If what is above is jihad, ferzok, please revaluate the role of madrasas. They have non of the modern economic objectives in the islamic republic of pakistan. The products of madrasa integrate to the religious function primarily, and the economic benefits are the loot they bring home, dont forget the days of gazxnavi.

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re: ferozk

{Could you please explain, how you are better than Pakistan and Pakistanis? }

A) the indian economy has outpaced pakistan`s despite being so much larger and more complex - pakistan is now a poorer nation than india

B) india still has democratic institutions, even if they are not perfect - every foreign nation in the world acknowledges that, other than pakistan of course

C) all the gloom and doom pakis jump up and down about is somehow missed by foreign investors who continue to pour investments into india - that tells me the gloom and doom is little more than wishful thinking by pakistanis

D) indian citizens are not on the list of terrorist suspects in the west - pakistanis are

E) bigotry is not institutionalized in the indian constitution like it is in pakistan (remember, no non-muslims in high offices) - just go ask the muslim president and christian defense minister in india about that...gujarat is something that could have happened in any country - no minority burns a train of the majority and gets away with it...it`s not right, but no one said human beings were perfect...a godhra in pakistan would`ve been followed by riots 10 times worse...

F) however small, india has made a positive contribution to the world with its software exports and IIT CEOs - what has pakistan contributed lately other than terrorism and the taliban?

G) an indian graduating from a top college in india (no matter how poor he is) can apply for jobs at any big investment bank, consulting firm, or technology company you can think of...his counterpart in pakistan does not have the option since those companies simply don`t exist there....

H) india`s literacy rates are higher than pakistan`s, particularly amongst women - maybe that is why all of the above exist...

I) indians screwed up by electing one modi - pakistan has a hundred of them...and by the way, americans keep electing trent lott to the senate, despite his record of bigotry going back to the early 80s...shall we throw american democracy to the dustbin too?..

#47 by ferozk

good questions…don’t hold your breadth for genuine answers…at best you will get knee jerk replies and programmed raw replies through their reliable and courteous plants…;)

#42 by Romair

[…Why in the world does any critique on anything wrong with India, by Indians, have to include something wrong in Pakistan?…]

---because despite different flags, passports and outward appearances deep down we are the same …

your friendly next-door isi/raw double agent

...t

``Why not just say, ``Hey India should not saffronize its educational system, because it is wrong - with no mention of Pakistan.`` (Romair)

No -- it`s entirely proper to mention Islamist Monkey of Pakistan --

because --

what Hindutva MONKEY sees Hindutva MONKEY does....

The problem with pathological hate is that it cannot be reasoned with, specially when hatred is justified for the sake of hatred itself. Hate; to suffer from hate and to believe in hatred blinds the person and makes their opinions/views subjective. Hate is an emotional state of mind, which clouds the judgement and hinders effective reasoning.

I have some questions for the Indians on this thread, if they wish to answer them.

Please go right ahead and hate Pakistan and hate Muslims, but please consider this fact.

Are you prepared to pay the price for your choice?

You can hate Pakistanis and Pakistan`s Muslims, and when you demonize the Muslims and use anti-Muslim sentiments to increase your vote bank, why are you punishing your own citizens who happen to be Muslims?

If you claim, as some of you have in the past, that Indian Muslims have more rights than minorities in Pakistan, how does this act of yours, fueling anti-Muslim feelings squares with that claim?

You can hate Pakistanis and Pakistan, but what have you gained if in the process of hating Pakistan, you end up destroying your own country? Are you so blinded by your pathological hatred for Pakistan, Pakistanis and Muslims that you cannot see the results wrought about by your intentions and actions?

You claim that unlike Pakistan, India is a secular nation and if that is true, since when did secular India started to tolerate the insidious influence of religion in politics, specially if religion is used politically to win elections?

You claimed that Pakistan was mixing religion with politics and was a theocratic state. Is India also becoming a theocratic state since it started to mix religion with politics?

You claimed that minorities in Pakistan have to prove their loyalities to the state. Are you not doing the same with your minorities, when you question them and equate anti-Muslim sentiments with a with strong national security, like Modi did in the recent Gujrat elections?

You claimed that the Pakistanis, who were responsible for sectarian violence against minorities were aided and protected by the state and never punished.

Have you in India punished the people, who were responsible for killing the thousands of Sikhs after the assassination of Indra Ghandi?

Did the state of Gujrat not aid the people, who killed Muslims in Gujrat riots by its inactions and did its failure to stem the violence not protected perpetators from accountibility?

You claimed that Pakistan`s state institutions were responsible for their failures to stop sectarianism and were being politized. Were the state institutions in Gujrat not guilty of a similiar act?

You claim that you are better than Pakistan and Pakistanis.

Could you please explain, how you are better than Pakistan and Pakistanis?

Ciao

This is brief response to Romair`s #42 comment of Dec 27 to my article on the Hindu madrasas of Dec 26, 2002:
This is an immediate reaction to your excellent comments on my article. I have not been able to take in all of them. But for the moment, I would say that your point about us Indians being obesssed with Pakistan is well taken. In the present case, I was trying to depict concretely for my Indian readers the horrible future awaiting us if we ``go down the slippery slope`` and become ``a mirror image of Pakistan``. Also, that it is not entirely a coincidence that our present eductiaon system has produced the brightest I-T whiz kids in the world. Incidentally, as I pointed out in my piece, Dr Pervez