Midnight's Knights?

Reproduced from DR.subrotoroys` board..... pro bono publico.

Dr. Subroto Roy # 123

It was not worth my time to proceed beyond this kohinoor:

[Yet such an initial response may be followed by another very different set of sincere and vital emotions. Upon reflection and a second reading, it is possible to feel exhilaration, delight, even the calm of a Shia Muslim spiritual experience from the book. These may be accompanied by a conviction that Rushdie has produced a significant work of art even if he himself remains unaware of its nature. ]

How does one acquire `...the calm of a Shia Muslim spritual experience from the book.` ?

Maybe that was exactly what Ayotullah Khomeini experienced.

No wonder that mentioning of DAKTAR and phD and Faarin degrees and PRAFESSURRR allows you to get across some very select intellectual & cultural turnstiles.

Please read again what you have written and sue the pants off the CHOWK editors for considering it worthwhile to print. Why else are they here for? and it is your derivative reputation which is at stake.

Then e-mail this post to cellman rushdick and let him talk to me.

re: hamidm


{it seems like they too are being taught selevtive history - they seem to know a lot about shivaji and gunga din but can`t tell the tughlaqs from the khiljis ..........and these are the best and brightest from iit and top ten us b-schools ............. the disease seems to be endemic ............. }

...it`s ok...a lot of the IITs believe the flying monkey was real, but as long as they don`t stop showing up at goldman and mckinsey in ugly suits and oily hair, they`ll be fine...

rsaxena

......... unfortunately, i find the younger indians to be equally ignorant about the islamic period of their checkered past ....... it seems like they too are being taught selevtive history - they seem to know a lot about shivaji and gunga din but can`t tell the tughlaqs from the khiljis ..........and these are the best and brightest from iit and top ten us b-schools ............. the disease seems to be endemic .............

......... but, as far as i am concerned, it really doen`t matter what they do on that side - for all we care, they could teach their kids about a monkey king with a burning tail and a god with an elephant nose............ what bothers me is the fast spreading ignorance and stupidity amongst the true believers ..........

#129:hamidm

The impish grin has been noticed.
I am out of it.

re: hamidm2

{over the last twenty or so years ashoka, buddha and other non-muslim historical figures have become quite irrelevant in pakistan .........official school textbooks barely mention the pre-islamic period and most kids grow up learning that india was discovered by muhammad bin qasim ........ the ignorance is appaling }

...it`s ok...just stop the kids from blowing themselves up everywhere and they can learn whatever urstruly would like them to learn...

Dr. Subroto Roy # 123

I originally wrote my post # 98 (on this board) to be posted at your board ``The Case For and Against The Satanic Verses`` but regretfully chowk staff decided to censor it from there. Finally, muzzles are up. There is only one thing left to say about Chowk:

Ajab azad mard tha, khuda maghfarat karay.

(inna lillahe wa inna elaihay rajeoon)

sameerjb,

over the last twenty or so years ashoka, buddha and other non-muslim historical figures have become quite irrelevant in pakistan .........official school textbooks barely mention the pre-islamic period and most kids grow up learning that india was discovered by muhammad bin qasim ........ the ignorance is appaling

Are there any doctors in the house?

King Canute the Flatulent`s secretions seem to be increasing. Please up the dose of Alzheimers medicine and change his bedpan.

-h-

Harish #45, Farzana #74:

The only thing worse than a long rambling review of an article is a longer ramblinger point-by-point rebuttal by the author.

BTW, I love that work ``deconstruction``

Heppy Noo Year!

Satyavadi:

``please explain how Ashok and Buddha (not Bhudda) are indigenous to present day Pakistan. This is not a rhetorical question, I am genuinely interested in knowing HOW they are indigenous to that area. ``

This is indeed surprising. The history I have read points to Lumbini in Present Day Nepal as the Birthplace of Siddhartha, later to become Gautam Buddha. Maybe Romair is referring to the University of Takshila which is present in Pakistan. Similarly, Ashoka`s origin is from the kingdom of Magadha, which approximates to present day Bihar.

Makes me wonder...was Gautam Buddha referred to as Bahadur or Thapa because of his Nepali orogin...and maybe Ashoka was called Bhaiyya because of his Bihari origin.

The previous post on ethnic slurs was meant to be taken lightly. No offence was intended on individuals or ethnic groups.

satyavadi #120: Thanks for a quick and detailed reply. I mentioned Ashoka and Buddha because Romair singled them out (though I personally like them very much also), otherwise the book by a current MNA from Lahore, Aitzaz Ahsan (Indus Saga) does mention all the names you have pointed out. Panini is highly regarded among this circle of leftists/ seculars/ liberals. Unlike Buddha or Ashoka, Panini is not even controversial on any matter because he was not a ruler. Moreover, he is the only other source (actually more reliable) besides Greek Historians about the antiquity of the area around Indus. He was born in Mardan, NWFP.

Similarly, Guru Nanak`s position in Panjabi literary circles is almost unchallenged for his influence and even among religious folks, he ranks at the top alongwith Baba Farid Shakargang. Lala Lajpat Rai is also very highly regarded. From 11th century history, Raja Jaipal of Lahore is very well respected for prefering to be beheaded by Ghaznavi instead of converting following defeat at Peshawar.

The families associated with Maharaja Ranjit Singh are very respected in Lahore. The descendants of Fakir brothers are sought after seminar speakers. Very few people realize that Pakistan`s western frontier is a legacy of Maharaja`s Kingdom that stretched into NWFP. British felt obliged to defend this area in Anglo-Afghan wars because it came to British following 1849 treaty between Dilip Singh and British. Othrwise Britisg might have contented with making Indus as their western boundry.

However, all this is done without any official patronage and still minority opnions. But with new media openness and internet, more and more people are becoming familiar of this part of history, not found in textbooks. I believe, we have already seen the wose of ignorance and planned ignoring that section of our history.

As I stated in my previous post, cuture based identity is independent of political based identity. The conservatives have challenged the dovish attitude of open minded, liberal/ secular/ leftists but they can not bring any more history than what they already have put in the textbooks whereas on the other side more and more pages from history are becoming known - for most for the first time.

Most people you deal here are at the begining of a revision of history that is picking up pace. They may or may not be aware of it. The revisionism tied to culture is unchallengeable as anything less nationalistic or less patriotic. The Lahoris will equally cheer for Pakistani cricket team and Basant. This defies the logic behind 50+ years of twisted one-sided view of history as a necessity to create an identity. Latest version is that we always had an identity and proofs are everywhere in the forms of accents and languages, rituals and traditions, customs and celebrations.

Raja Dahar is also respected by Sindhi nationalists though to a lesser degree because like Ghaznavi, his pride, according to Chachnama, remained to the place of his father - Ayodhya. He was a Brahmins in the midst of Rajputs and Balochis. He get 100 out of 100 for defending his kingdom against invaders. Had MB Qasim not invaded, Raja Dahar would not have made any history in Sindh on his own. Rajputs would have taken care of him.

Similarly more we know about Chandragupt Maurya, more we change our mind. He was one of the smartest trained leader of sub-continent. He stopped encroachment of the western tribes under Greek (Parthians, Bactrians)) or indigenous leadership to make plundering raids into sub-continent. Both Chandragupta and Ashoka went farthest to the west to defend present day Pakistani territory. Rest of Ganges Pains kingdoms were not so forthcoming in defeding Indus Plains. That is wht Indus plains were autonomous wherther under Porous or Raja Jaipal.

Therefore it is more than birthplace that is making difference in elevationg the stature of eminent historical figures among open minded Pakistanis. Actually, it would be a decent indicator to keep an eye on. If and when some Pakistani major business, major road or a town is renamed after Guru Nanak, Ashoka or Ranjit Singh - the pendulum is swung to the otehr side.

I have flattered myself to think that ``deconstruction`` of ``The Satanic Verses`` Ms Versey referred to as ``thorough`` in her first sentence was the one I did, published for the first time at Chowk on December 23. Ms Versey has very kindly confirmed to me that is the case. I assume ``deconstruction`` is synonymous with (or Derrida-speak for) ``analysis``.

Rushdie and I met for (I think) dinner about November 1973 when I was a freshman at the LSE and a volunteer for the London University student-newspaper, and he was, as I recall, a young (and rather angry) journalist. It was around the time of the Greek military dictatorship which led to the ``November 17`` group, only recently apprehended (I recall some of them, or people like them, visiting the newspaper`s office.) I recall being unhappy at India having held the 90,000 Pakistani POWS from the 1971 conflict for longer than we should have done (which I think has contributed to a lot of bitterness and desire for revenge in the higher echelons of the Pakistani military). I recall Rushdie telling me then of how, though he was Pakistani, he felt himself Indian, and also of his love for Bombay. I seem to recall him sharing my scorn for the Pakistani political regime in that era. I recall him being happy enough to have met me (a youngster at 18) and gave me his phone number and told me to call if I needed his help. We may have talked on the phone once after that but have never met again -- except in cybersapce via my critique of his book at Chowk now. Coincidentally, my own work came to be attacked in the United States on the same day, February 14 1989, as Rushdie received the Iranian fatwa, but that story is yet to be told.

This is my first experience at this marvellous site called Chowk, though I have admired it since 1999. Chowk members may be interested to know of India Policy Institute which also began at the same time, and is now at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IndiaPolicy. We have
a somewhat different approach; while members may be anonymous, no one may post without a real name, affiliation, etc. To protect privacy, this information remains with the moderators (unless a member wishes to make it public), and in exchange the moderators` data are in the public database. We have thus managed to stop a lot of ``flaming``, invective and irrelevancy; nor do we provide ouselves as a place for therapy or for venting anger or pettiness. IPI members have been informed of Chowk, and equivalently, Chowk members are most welcome to consider joining IPI, or viewing the archives which are public. Interesting posts may be found on technology, the economy, secularism, Hindutva, Godhra and Post-Godhra, India-Pakistan relations and other matters. My own pie-in-the-sky solution for India-Pakistan has, for a decade now, been the formula ``Common Defence, Common Market, Common J&K`` achieved sequentially within, say, 2, 5 and 7 years respectively.

Sincerely

Subroto Roy, PhD (Cantab.)
Professor, VGSOM, IIT Kharagpur,
Kharagpur, India 721302.

#112:hamidm2

It was all fun & games until you made them aware of their loss of innocence and ordered them out of their paradise.

Now that is the reason I have always been clamouring for zenaana & mardaana quarters. I know, I know where you stand on this but I still respect( whatever that really means, this cliche`d word `respect`, most often used by liberals) your views---they are asinine.

You & a few others may not believe this:There IS a difference.

SammerJB #119:

Thanks for that informative post. I was`t aware that Ashoka was born somewhere in present day NWPF.

Buddhism may have become ``more native`` to the Indus plains than the planes of the Ganga, but it was also very influential and at times predominant in Bengal, Orissa and South India.

The reasons you provide for considering Ashoka and Buddha appear to be more your point of view rather than Romair`s (I will wait for his reply), especially when you contrast Ghaznavi and other Afghans with Buddha and Ashok. However I didnot have Ghaznavi and Afghans in mind when I asked that question. What intrigues me is the way Pakistanis selectively choose people from their pre-Islamic past and associate with them. Thus Ashok and Buddha (both coincidentally or otherwise associated with Buddhism and NOT Hinduism) suddenly become proud icons of that Pakistani era, whereas countless other historical figures are ignored or vilified. The examples of people that are omitted (and it`s a long list) include Raja Dahir of Sindh, Panini, Chandragupta Maurya, Prithviraj Chauhan (he ruled Punjab too if I am not mistaken). several Hindu rulers of Punjab who until the 12th -13th century when Punjab finally completely came under Muslims must have fought with the invaders from the West. Also come to mind are the Hindu rulers of Afghanistan who finally lost out again only in the 12th or 13th century to the Islamic invaders. Maharaja Ranjit Singh, freedom fighter Lala Lajpat Rai ..the list goes on.

There is also a displayed tendency to coopt the Sikhs and their leaders too, which I suspect might have become a trend after the early 1980s.

I don`t claim to read Romair`s mind and hence don`t attribute any motives to his selective quoting (and admittedly he was referring the to book by Tariq Ali). But I asked this question, because from my sporadic reading of Pakistani papers along with cunning Bania and evil Brahmins, another unchanging `theme` is the acceptance of ONLY Ashoka and Buddha (and sometimes Guru Nanak) from pre Islamic Pakistan.

One last point I want to make is your justification of Ashoka and Buddha being associated with Pakistan due to Ashoka`s birth place and Buddhism`s waning and waxing influence, could very well be applied to numerous other figures, entities and groups, from current day India`s past. But their omission by design or otherwise is glaring. Makes one wonder `what lies beneath`.

Satyavadi

satyavadi #117:
At least for once Mohan Raja has relied upon one of the best books by one of the best intellectuals in Pakistan. I understand your question as to why Ashoka and Buddha be considered more indigenous than some one born more closer to Pakistan, such as Ghaznavi from Ghazna - less than 100 miles from Pakistani border.
I hope you noticed the case for Indus saga is build around culture and within culture, language comes above all else. Ashoka, though a Bihari but a ``Pakistani`` by birth (born around the intersection of Kabul and Indus rivers) spoke Prakrits rather than Pali. Moreover, Pali and Prakrit were sister languages, the way current Sindhi, Saraiki and Panjabi languages are. Both of them were mutually understandable without translators. The languages at the great University of Taxasila (Taxila) were Sanskrit, Prakrits and Pali.
Similarly Buddhism became more native to Indus plains than Ganges plains during Mauriya period and later on Kanishka and various Saka rulers. Some of the best archaeological finds about Buddha and Buddhism exist in NWFP and Panjab.

Unlike Ashoka and Buddha, rest -turks in particular- were resistant to adopting Indic cultures. Second point along the same line is wrong interpretation of Muslim names in sub-continent by _digit. It has nothing to do woth minority status when Balochis and Pathans were fully converted to Islam. Balochis converted much earlier and had no regard for rest of India but their names are no different.

The names question is simple. The political and religious elites for 700 years were non-Indians and desi converts were second class citizen, Hindus being third class. Those who converted by almost exclusively Syed Sufis and Pirs were given Arabic names while converted by the mullahs and qazis associated with the courts as well as Shia Sufis gave mostly Persian names to the converts. The Sufis would give more often names with some attributes of god - most common being Abdullah whereas mullahs would give Mohammed first name more often.
The second class status offered no choice for the converts to keep any of the previous names except for the tribal identities as last name.

In many places around the world such as Uighur China, Muslims do not necessarily carry Arabic or Persian names though in minority. One of the leader of Tiananmen square student uprising, Wu`er Kaixi (pronounced as Wu Kai-shi) was an Uighur Muslim with Chinese name.