Towards Greater Tolerance

I am sick of Paki wet dreams of redrawing India`s boundaries. I would rather have a million riots, a never ending civil war or even a radioactive wasteland over SOUTH ASIA than to have India partitioned again. The Pakis got their Pakistan and they should sod off. Having your own country means you no longer have the right to interfere in the internal affairs of our country.

Oh yeah..a thousand debates will not get you Kashmir. You will have to fight us for it. If there is to be ethnic cleansing in Kashmir, might as well be of traitors hand Indians. India is no longer the country of Gandhi where Hindus and Sikhs will suddenly become refugees in their own country.

To arjun_m`s various hate posts:

# 154: ``Pakistanis should return from US: PTI``

Yes, Tehreek-e-Insaaf is right. Unlike illegal Indians, Mexicans, other latin Americans who should continue to live in the USA, illegal Pakistanis should return to the country. They should not put themselves into trouble.

#153 ``Headline:Pakistani terrorists caught in Italy. Pakistan lames it on anti-Pakistan bias.....but no one is buying it... ``

Italy has caught Pakistanis before too blaming of Al Qaeda links, but had to free them after no proof. Guranteed, they will do it this time too.

Recall that Kenya also detained 6 Pakistanis after a bomb blast there. Ultimately, they had to be freed.

The famous shoe bomber Mr. Reeve was also touted as Pakistani when he was caught only to be found of other citizenship later.

Rest assured, not a single Pakistani will ever be found to have Al Qaeda links. Pakistanis are not like that.

#152 ``yasser boy..i know you are lurking....we are all dying for you to tell us how supporting islamic terrorists in Kashmir is a sogn of tolerance.... ``

While Yasser may take his sweet time responding to your rather interesting question, I sympathise with your anger at how your elected fundamentalist extremist Government is getting frustrated in Kashmir Valley. I would say that in the absence of neutral observers and of international media in Indian occupied Kashmir, no body has the moral right to blame Pakistan on any ``terrorist`` activity in Kashmir under Indian occupation. OTOH, taking advantage of the war on terrorism, Indian Government has resorted to killing Kashmiris in custody and in fake encounters (please see the HR report). However, I would say that even this is questionable, because there are no neutral observers in Kashmir.

re:#149 by ahmadzai
If Jinnah got Pakistan thr` democratic means, the credit also goes to the British who had decided to divide India and actively encouraged muslim league while throwing most of the Congress leadership in Jail during and following the Quit India movement. Jinnah put fears into the mind of an average muslim, who was made to feel that he could never be secure in an India ruled by majority hindus. In this, jinnah betrayed his ignorance of a functioning democracy. Democracy always works with consensus. It is all too evident in India today. BJP cannot say it has the final voice. BJP is still part of the coalition because ABV is a great consensus builder. Jinnah, despite being secular in outlook (i believe he ceased to be secular during the days running upto partition) most of his life could not fashion a democratic governance in Pakistan. Remember, he called the shots as the ruler of Pakistan, and even though he was short-lived, he could have set the tone for democracy. He did not do so and the result is for us all to see.
Sridhar

PS: The thing is that nothing can alleviate the pangs of hatred which people like P-Mishra2 suffer from. Despite all the examples I have given in multiple posts of very successful Pakistani Hindus both from personal life and national life, P-Mishra claims through divine powers that I don`t know any Pakistani Hindus... turra yeh kay when I give the example of Justice Rana Bhagwandas, he compares that example to Bal Thackerey saying that his sweeper is a Muslim... the sheer lack of reason in that statement baffles me...

BTW On this website which is a medium to reach the upwardly mobile Indian and Pakistani Middle class according to P-Mishra... I wonder why there are so few Indian Muslims? Ofcourse as per evidence provided by PM Chowk had a patriotic Pakistani Hindu until recently...

In any event I don`t have time for this, and now I will bid you farewell :)

Long Live Khushwant Singh`s India...

Long Live Behram Atashband`s, Justice Bhagwandas`s, Deepak Perwani`s, Yousaf Yohanna`s, Ardeshir Cowasjee`s, Bapsi Sidhwa`s, and Jinnah`s Pakistan !!!!

PS: The thing is that nothing can alleviate the pangs of hatred which people like P-Mishra2 suffer from. Despite all the examples I have given in multiple posts of very successful Pakistani Hindus both from personal life and national life, P-Mishra claims through divine powers that I don`t know any Pakistani Hindus... turra yeh kay when I give the example of Justice Rana Bhagwandas, he compares that example to Bal Thackerey saying that his sweeper is a Muslim... the sheer lack of reason in that statement baffles me...

BTW On this website which is a medium to reach the upwardly mobile Indian and Pakistani Middle class according to P-Mishra... I wonder why there are so few Indian Muslims? Ofcourse as per evidence provided by PM Chowk had a patriotic Pakistani Hindu until recently...

In any event I don`t have time for this, and now I will bid you farewell :)

Long Live Khushwant Singh`s India...

Long Live Behram Atashband`s, Justice Bhagwandas`, Deepak Perwani`s, Yousaf Yohanna`s, Ardeshir Cowasjee`s, Bapsi Sidhwa`s, and Jinnah`s Pakistan !!!!

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Romair,

I know a couple of Pakistani Hindus, but none that interact on this board, and i went to uni with a Pak Hindu from who`s parents are Sindhi from KHI, though she was born and brought up here.

And guess what, i actually met a Pakistani Jew in London... i couldn`t beleive it i was like OMG wow, but he looks just like every other Pakistani from KHI... He told me there are a few Jews in Pakistan, and that there is a synagogue in KHI and one in Islamabad... his family seemed to be pretty well off in Pak, and had businesses in Dubai too...

Yasser:
Other interactors may have already raised these issues. Nevertheless, I think your last para and conclusion ought to be the true spirit with which both Indians and Pakistanis must see each other. However, if you talk of burying the hatchet, you must remember a few points.

[For intellectuals: To berate Pakistan, its people and its historical antecedents and in comparison make look India better. For politicians: To use Pakistan as an election issue. BJP Government has failed to deliver and has now made a suitable issue out of Pakistan. Everytime the chest thumping deputy Prime Minister challenges Pakistan to a fourth war, he seems to win more votes in India. Such is the appeal of this bigoted rhetoric, that the Congress was also forced to employ the same tactic. Anti-Pakistanism seems to be the one unifying factor for Indians of all colors, castes and creeds.]

Isn’t Kashmir the unifying factor for Pakistanis? You might say that this is a disputed territory (and I do believe it is, and the Kashmiris know best), but is not the region used by Pak politicians to whip up anti-India sentiments? Why does Prez Musharraf, who I thought could do a lot for Indo-Pak relations, talk of nuking India when Pakistan has not won any war against us? As regards ‘intellectuals’, most of the names you mentioned are essentially siyasatdaars. Only because they are anti-BJP does not legitimise their position. Please remember that sentiments against Pakistan have been there right since Partition and under every single government in power. And most of these worthies had happily cozied up to the Congress. And it was at that time that Benazir Bhutto had talked of bleeding India through a thousand cuts; the BJP was nothing to reckon with.

I would say that the BJP’s anti-minorityism only lends credence and consolidates the mistaken majority view of Muslims as the ‘other’; Pakistan comes in as a default candidate.

[Europe has not achieved unity by superimposing a European nationalism on the immensely proud Germans, French and the English, but by accepting the diversity of its people. The South Asia was never one people, and it will never be one people. Instead the ethnic, religious, cultural, social and caste-based divisions go deep into the fabric of the South Asian society and this can be its greatest strength.]

What do the Germans, French and English have in common? If we go by this logic, then India should be several countries. I think it is insecurity and pathological suspicion that make us want to be ‘different’. And the ethnic differences that you see as a ‘strength’ are really a major problem when you go into the details. However, at the macro level the South Asian identity is cohesive, and neither Pak nor India can run away from it. The Indus vs. the Ganges can at best be a geographical demarcation. Scratch the skin and we are far too similar, even our hatred is of the same kind. Of course, no one is talking of S. Asian nationalism simply because a continent or separate parts of it cannot be a nation.

[The institutionalized discrimination against the non-Muslims needs to be put an end to immediately, not because of International pressure, but because the very premise of our
nation state, our ideology is the safeguard of minority rights and their equal status as
citizens in Pakistan. The point is that our doing so should not be seen as a departure from
an imagined exclusivist principle…]

If the exclusivism is imagined, then there ought not to be a reason to reiterate it, right? I have constantly stated that Jinnah was the most misunderstood leader around that time, but Pakistan was created to accommodate a minority group. And it is an Islamic Republic. And it will be viewed in that light. India flaunts itself as a secular republic, therefore it can get away with murder. I am mentioning this here because it has to do with the swapping of identities. A Hindu is killed in Pak sometimes as a ‘reaction’ to what happens across the border and Indians find a reason to berate Islam and Indian Muslims; thousands of Muslims are treated shabbily in India and that too is because of Islam and Pakistan. We are told to go ‘there’ simply because it was created for ‘us’. And after all this you say we do not share a civilisation? This is our whole darned legacy. The ‘superiority of civilisations’ that you talk of is not possible with such petty thinking on both sides. Besides, how can you deny a common culture?

I have the greatest respect for a nation’s right to be itself and it is time India stopped looking on Pakistan as easy game, but it would be nice if Pak realised that détente cannot be created in isolation.

I go along with your hope for tolerance, though I find the term patronising. But I understand the spirit in which it was said.

nasahsaab (#59):
You tell Yasser, “accept that all three -- the Muslims the Hindus and the Sikhs were equally NAKED in the Hammam of subcontinental BARBARISM -- the ONLY civilized communities being the Christians and the Parsis”.

Agree with the first part, but why did the Partition take place? Which communities had to be relocated? What were the factors that caused such barbarism? Was it possible in those circumstances to be civilised? (I am not for the barbarism naturally, but once the momentum starts, it is a bit difficult to say, “Pehle aap” before you can let someone plunge the knife into you.) The Christians and Parsis had little or nothing to lose given their numbers, their education and their adaptability in the given context. They also had avenues open to them, which were not possible for the other communities. No one asked the Parsis to go back to Iran. And Sardar Patel did not even go to Goa…

Having said this, you are right about “subcontinental passive/aggressive are -- even today -- fully capable of burst of barbaric behavior -- in between bowing hugging and touching feet”.

I wonder though how certain Western societies manage to be barbaric without doing any of the bowing, hugging, feet touching…you talk of “temporary insanity”…can we then discount what happens today on those very grounds and say it is time to move on after it is over?

Do we have to pay such a high price for tolerance?

Regards,
Farzana

...............as much as i hate to point it out, it seems to me that horrid hindus seem to be better organized at bigotry and violence against minorities than the helter skelter pakis ............ inspite of all the sloganeering against ahmedis and infidels and shias and whatnot, i can`t think of an instance when the pakis have systematically gone out and killed hundreds, and thousands, of misbelievers and disbelievers in a matter of days like the indians do every other year or so in ahmedabad and bombay and kanpur ............all we seem to do is randomly kill a shia doctor every friday, and then move on to killing an odd ahmedi guilty of speaking arabic in arabic .........and then on to beating up a heretic or an apostate........total religious insanity, but not as well organized as the saffron brigades with white and red warpaint on their forehead and heeng on their breath ............. like everything else, we pakis can`t even organize a decent religious riot ..............

....... maybe now that the mullahs are in charge in the frontier they can organize a world-class carnage or two like their bjp counterparts on the wrong side of the border...........

The Shuttle tragedy

Before I start I would like to say that what happened to Columbia was very sad and should be mourned as a collective human tragedy.. I especially join my indian friends (not the irrational ones here but real ones) in mourning the loss of Dr. Kalpana Chawla, the Indian American with the most beautiful smile I have ever seen, ... May the souls of the brave astronauts rest in peace, and long live the brave and bold human endeavour to boldly go in space where no one has gone before. The future is up there... in space, and these shaheeds are the brave pioneers of a brave new humanity.

BTW Col. Ilan Ramon`s death it seems as been celebrated by the Arab World as he was the Israeli Pilot who bombed the Iraqi Nuclear Reactor... all I would say is that he was a soldier fighting for his nation... soldiers should not be blamed for doing their duty... He died as an Israeli yes, but he also died as a Human being and I think that should be stressed...



Now ... again a clarification:

I as a student of history fully acknowledge the massacres of hindus and sikhs that took place in Punjab and Sindh at the time of partition (as I do acknowledge the massacre of Bengalis in 1971). I also see how my sentence does not adequately show this and I apologize. Perhaps my slight is an indication of some subconscious bias which has been nurtured by being constantly and unjustly told by Indians especially here on Chowk that Muslims and Pakistanis were solely and exclusively responsible for all mayhem and murders at Partition.

In any event, consider this an apology for the abovementioned sentence.


Dear Ana,

The fact that you gleefuly mention my ``thrashing`` shows what kind of a person you really are. If being cursed upon by a bunch of rabid fanatics is thrashing then so be it. I ofcourse feel that it further strengthens the argument I am trying to put across. By the way, I am not sure which friends you talk about because as I look on the responses almost all Chowkies of any repute are here ... missing I think is dost mittar who has interacted on every other article I wrote... This again shows a deviousness which I have come to expect of you.


P-Mishra2 ji kay jokes :)

Then we have P-Mishra2... he is beating the same old drums again... `you don`t know a hindu` he reveals with the confidence of a holy man ... well yes he is right to the extent that I don`t personally have a friend who happens to be a Pakistani Hindu, though I have christians, parsis, and others... who are atleast from the `same class` as me if not better... (NOW read on:) My cousin who goes to Agha Khan University has many Pakistani Hindu friends studying to be Doctors at one of the most Selective schools in Asia... similarly I had a very CLASSY art teacher in Middle school who wore the loveliest saris and drove the most beautiful cars and who is now teaching something at NCA who happened to be a HINDU. Then he puts words in my mouth when he says that I consider chowk to be a rathole... No actually I don`t consider it to be a rathole, but a place can be rat-infested right? And the original owners leave when rats take over.... So why do I write on chowk? well I think it is really enjoyable getting certain lifeless losers from your neck of the woods worked up about this stuff :) No points for guessing who.

By the way can anyone please explain to me how when I say that one of Pakistan`s supreme court justices today is a Hindu or when I mention that the Hindu MNA from Central Sindh really dresses well is the same as Bal Thackerey saying that he has a Muslim sweeper... frankly I am totally lost. But then I never gave P-Mishra2 much credit for objectivity and rational analysis.

P-Mishra seriously yaar.. If you have any shame whatsoever you will show me which statements I made which prompted you to write down this following gem:

``They make exactly the same statements you make about indian muslims that you have made about hindu pakistanis. The same specious reasoning (``How does it matter if indian muslims are under-represented on the police? See here is a poor muslim man who cleans my house``). They are your natual peers except that they have more humility. ``

And you still haven`t responded to PM`s post which takes the wind (if there was any) out of your argument...


And how can one not notice arjunm... talk about `time` ... this guy is now digging up stuff from god knows when to prove god knows what... and Roohi has started posting figures from Bangladesh massacre of which Pakistanis are undeniably and horribly guilty ... you won`t see me denying that would you... ofcourse does it matter if it is not related to the issue at hand? And to think this was the person who spoke about looking beyond national lines... I am sure Roohi`s latest post was not in anyway shape or form an indication of her anti-Pakistan bias.


Ralph,

Tell you what : Why don`t you come to Pakistan and check for yourself... ofcourse that would be much more authentic than believing Jay who himself acknowledges to be a Paki-Basher... but then from your tenor I don`t think you want the truth ... so go ahead believe what you want. Dr. Salam is a very honored personality in Pakistan despite his religion which is often played down by the more religious of the Pakistanis... ofcourse people like me love to bring it up to embarrass them. Even the fanatical General Zia was forced to honor and receive Dr.Salam in an official ceremony... in which he paid the most glorious tribute to Dr. Salam.


India`s secularism

And then we have one gentlemen proving to us India`s liberalism and secularism, by stating that we didn`t let BJP build the temple on the site of Babri Masjid which we incidentally allowed them to demolish... what a standard to judge secularism by! And ofcourse a famous TV show host and compere from India is now declaring that Khushwant Singh is a British wannabe ... it seems that anyone who doesn`t agree with that famous TV compere (Veeresh Malik whoelse) seems to end up in the anti-India, anti-National or British wannabe list... the list keeps growing Nirad Chaudhry, Arundhati Roy and Khushwant Singh... wonderful...



Qambar :

Thankyou for your comments I totally agree with you... these Jaish Muhammad wallahs are more of a threat to us than anyone else...


Ahmadzai latest...

Very well said.


Behram Atashband,

Good to see you here... I have been reading your articles/letters in Fridaytimes... Good stuff...

:)


friend,

Thankyou for showing us all how desperate one gets when one doesn`t have a cogent argument.


Lovely

Sincerely

YLH

Behram #145: ``Being a Zoroastrian I never felt discriminated against in Pakistan. You are right that minorities in Pakistan are treated well. ``

Behram to the rescue also :-)

So PM and Behram, two interactors who can decide this debate, have both voted positively, as far as Pakistan looking after its minorities. So two out of two.

Wasn`t there a Pakistani-Christian version of Ana (different from the Indian Ana) who used to interact on this site. Waiting for her vote of confidence also.....

A strong Yes from a Pakistani-Hindu (are there any interacting on this site?) would be worth its weight in gold. And one from an Ahmedi, would be worth its weight in diamonds. And one from a Jew (are there any Pakistani-Jews?) would be worth its weight in uranium.

Till then, I think I will have to step upto the plate. Uptil a few hundred years ago, my family was Hindu (a few thousand years ago, on the other side, it was probably Zoroastrian - but we already have the Parsi vote in), so I am probably 1/1000 percentage or so Hindu.

As a representative of the 1/1000 percent Hindu group of Pakistan, I can say that people who are 1/1000 percent Pakistani-Hindus get treated quite well in Pakistan, also. So much so, that they can discriminate against people who are 1/999 percentage Hindu :-)

But seriously, it is good to see that Pakistani religious minorities feel they were/are treated fairly in Pakistan - at least the two who are actively interacting here. I have found all minorities in Pakistan to be extremely patriotic, so I hope it is not just their patriotism speaking.

But, I have always thought the treatment of minorities left a lot to be desired in Pakistan (except in the military), as is the case in most third-world countries. The only group I have seen treated quite well are Parsis - primarily because they are so successful, and thus in positions of authority - usually employing the majority Muslims, and are not being employed by them. And I would say, of all the minorities in Pakistan, the ones who would be the most frustrated and angry would be the Ahmedis, since they don`t want to be considered a religious minority to begin with.

One interesting thing I have noticed: There is a ridiculous and divisive campaign going around, with websites (not to mention terrorism) to get Shias declared non-Muslims. This will not happen, becasue Shias are too much a part of the Pakistani mainstream. Such campaigns should be opposed. However, I have met Shias, who have no problem with Ahmedis being declared non-Muslims. One would think that someone who himself/herself is threatened by the, ``non-Muslim`` card, would be sympathetic towards others who have been hit by that same card....Quite odd....

Very interesting article in NYTimes Sunday Mag this weekend by Pankaj Mishra on Hindu Fundamentalism in India and Gujrat.

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