Towards Greater Tolerance
Yasser Latif Hamdani January 30, 2003
#118 Posted by veeresh on February 1, 2003 10:10:06 am
Thanks Romair # 116 . . . your observations in this message have improved my knowledge.
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#117 Posted by nasah on February 1, 2003 10:10:06 am
````i will be the first one to admit that i don`t have any use for keralites or bombayites or anybody else -- who would rather worship a hamburger than eat it .........
oh sure, i do socialize with some of -- these sideways head waggers --on friday nights```` (hamidm2)
hamidm MiaN -- u R a Genuine Genius -- u INDEEEED R a rushdi of chowki prose --
an utterly original definition of subcontinental Hindus and Muslim: --
``one who would rather worship a hamburger that eat it`` --
and the other -- ``the Sideway Head Wagger`` --
wah -- wah:-)
oh sure, i do socialize with some of -- these sideways head waggers --on friday nights```` (hamidm2)
hamidm MiaN -- u R a Genuine Genius -- u INDEEEED R a rushdi of chowki prose --
an utterly original definition of subcontinental Hindus and Muslim: --
``one who would rather worship a hamburger that eat it`` --
and the other -- ``the Sideway Head Wagger`` --
wah -- wah:-)
#116 Posted by Romair on February 1, 2003 9:17:33 am
vereesh/harimau: Yes, I did only meet two Hindus in my whole life in Pakistan - and that too, only briefly. I cannot recall meeting anymore than that. I read about quite a few famous ones in Pakistan, but never met any. But, then again, I have met very few native Sindhi speaking Pakistani Muslims and Baluchi speaking Pakistani Muslims either. And I have never met a Pakistani Mekrani Muslim (they are of African descent and look just like skinnier versions African-Americans and live in the Makran coast and in Karachi).
The number of Christians I met was signficantly high - in the hundreds. I would count quite a few Christians as my good friends. I had Christian colleagues as my bosses etc. in the military. I met some Parsis also (there are hardly any in the whole world, much less in Pakistan). I have probably met a lot of Ahmedis, but it is difficult to tell the difference between Ahmedis and non-Ahmedis. The only Sikhs I ever met were the ones who used to visit Lahore on their way to religious shrines in Hasan Abdal. So I met quite a few Sikhs, but I doubt any of them were Pakistanis.
This is just my ratio. It will be different for different people. The reasons are probably, as follows:
- I spent nearly my whole life in NWFP and Punjab. And I don`t think there is any Hindu communities in that area - at least not where I lived. My whole professional career was spent in small rural towns in these provinces, and there weren`t any there either. Or maybe there were, but I never had a chance to meet them.
- There are a lot of Christians in the areas where I lived. I went to school with them, etc. Hence, a lot of contact with them.
- Parsis are a very successful community in Pakistan. I would say, the most successful. They are judges, authors, big businessmen, doctors etc. They live in Karachi, but they travel in the urban areas a lot. So I met them as well and there were some in the military.
- I think nearly all the Hindus live in Sind. Quite a few in Karachi and in the Sind rural areas. I never lived in Karachi much and never lived in rural Sind (only in rural Punjab), so I never came across a Hindu. If you talk to people who grew up in Karachi, however, they probably worked and went to school with Hindus on a daily basis.
Who are the two Hindus that I met? Well, one worked as an orderly for someone I knew. The other was a cadet in the military.
I think the best way to get an idea of how minorities are treated in a society is to get it from the horse`s mouth. How are Hindus treated in Pakistan - well you would have to ask a Pakistani Hindu. Similarly, for all other religions. I have explained how I see it.
You need to keep in mind, that considering Pakistan`s poor economic condition, and small size of the pie, Pakistanis are quite generous and tolerant of others. Pakistanis have looked after over 3 million Afghani refugees for decades (maybe largest refugee population in the world) without complaining much. Australia refused to even accomodate one thousand. And considering the fact that religious minorities at around 4% of the population would have very little power, if mob violence started in Pakistan, it has never even come closed to occruing. In my wildest dreams, I cannot see BJP type mob violence ever occuring in Pakistan, or the type of action that took place against Sikhs during the Congress era. I can see terrorism against Christian chruches by Al-Qaeda etc., but I cannot see a normal guy chasing after a Pakistani Christian or Hindu with a sword and burning him alive.
Another thing you need to notice is that Pakistanis on this board will never be anti-minority, or at least anti-Pakistani minority. If anything, they will be anti-Pakistan govt. and anti-Pakistan majority, when it comes to minority rights. If Patrick Masih were to write an article on minority issues/inequalities in Pakistan, I doubt he would get the same attacking replies as Farzana Varsey`s writing on India on similar issues.
I haven`t been to India, though I am planning on going in a year or so, so it is hard to compare. I have met some Indian Muslims in the USA (and worked with countless Indian Hindus). So I can get some sort of an idea of how they are treated - though it could be inaccurate.
It seems like they felt quite secure in the Congress days, but seem quite apprehensive and insecure now in the BJP days. A small portion of them seem to dislike India, while another small portion of them seem to try to be holier than the pope (or Brahman) in their support for India. The others seem to be in between, like most Indian Hindus I have met.
It seems like they are in large enough numbers in India, where they do have security just due to their size. How secure would they be, if they constituted only around 2% of the population,as Hindus do in Pakistan? I don`t know.
Much like minorities in most third world countries, it seems to me like the Indian Muslims have missed the economic train. Of the hundreds of Indian IT professionals I have worked with here, maybe 2% were Muslim. Nearly every South Asian Muslim in IT in USA you will meet , will be a Pakistani. Hardly any Indian Muslims with me in college here either, though the classes were filled with Indian Hindus.
On the whole, I would say Indian minorities are more integrated into the society, due to their size and due to earlier Indian govt. policies, than the minorities in Pakistan (except Parsis and Ahmedis also maybe). They have far less, if any, constitutional discrimination. And I suppose less social discrimination, as well.
At the same time, everything seems to have changed now under the BJP. All the Indian sites I visit, specially Muslim sites, seem to indicate almost a hunter and prey scenario. The Indian minorities seem scared now. In that sense, I don`t think Pakistani minorities are, ``scared`` of the majority (except for the blasphemy law - which has been applied to Muslims also).
So, Indian minorites - larger in number thus with more clout, more integrated economically, less legal discrimination, but more scared and frustrated at the moment at their own govt and they direction their socieity is taking (things may not be terribly bad, but they seem to be on a downswing - I think BJP is the lowest point for them in Indian history).
Pakistani minorities - smaller in number thus will less clout, less or similarly integrated economically, more legal discrimnation, but quite a bit less scared and frustrated at the moment at their own govt. and the direction the society is taking (things are still not great for them, but they are on an upswing getting better - Zia days was their lowest point).
Just my observations.
The number of Christians I met was signficantly high - in the hundreds. I would count quite a few Christians as my good friends. I had Christian colleagues as my bosses etc. in the military. I met some Parsis also (there are hardly any in the whole world, much less in Pakistan). I have probably met a lot of Ahmedis, but it is difficult to tell the difference between Ahmedis and non-Ahmedis. The only Sikhs I ever met were the ones who used to visit Lahore on their way to religious shrines in Hasan Abdal. So I met quite a few Sikhs, but I doubt any of them were Pakistanis.
This is just my ratio. It will be different for different people. The reasons are probably, as follows:
- I spent nearly my whole life in NWFP and Punjab. And I don`t think there is any Hindu communities in that area - at least not where I lived. My whole professional career was spent in small rural towns in these provinces, and there weren`t any there either. Or maybe there were, but I never had a chance to meet them.
- There are a lot of Christians in the areas where I lived. I went to school with them, etc. Hence, a lot of contact with them.
- Parsis are a very successful community in Pakistan. I would say, the most successful. They are judges, authors, big businessmen, doctors etc. They live in Karachi, but they travel in the urban areas a lot. So I met them as well and there were some in the military.
- I think nearly all the Hindus live in Sind. Quite a few in Karachi and in the Sind rural areas. I never lived in Karachi much and never lived in rural Sind (only in rural Punjab), so I never came across a Hindu. If you talk to people who grew up in Karachi, however, they probably worked and went to school with Hindus on a daily basis.
Who are the two Hindus that I met? Well, one worked as an orderly for someone I knew. The other was a cadet in the military.
I think the best way to get an idea of how minorities are treated in a society is to get it from the horse`s mouth. How are Hindus treated in Pakistan - well you would have to ask a Pakistani Hindu. Similarly, for all other religions. I have explained how I see it.
You need to keep in mind, that considering Pakistan`s poor economic condition, and small size of the pie, Pakistanis are quite generous and tolerant of others. Pakistanis have looked after over 3 million Afghani refugees for decades (maybe largest refugee population in the world) without complaining much. Australia refused to even accomodate one thousand. And considering the fact that religious minorities at around 4% of the population would have very little power, if mob violence started in Pakistan, it has never even come closed to occruing. In my wildest dreams, I cannot see BJP type mob violence ever occuring in Pakistan, or the type of action that took place against Sikhs during the Congress era. I can see terrorism against Christian chruches by Al-Qaeda etc., but I cannot see a normal guy chasing after a Pakistani Christian or Hindu with a sword and burning him alive.
Another thing you need to notice is that Pakistanis on this board will never be anti-minority, or at least anti-Pakistani minority. If anything, they will be anti-Pakistan govt. and anti-Pakistan majority, when it comes to minority rights. If Patrick Masih were to write an article on minority issues/inequalities in Pakistan, I doubt he would get the same attacking replies as Farzana Varsey`s writing on India on similar issues.
I haven`t been to India, though I am planning on going in a year or so, so it is hard to compare. I have met some Indian Muslims in the USA (and worked with countless Indian Hindus). So I can get some sort of an idea of how they are treated - though it could be inaccurate.
It seems like they felt quite secure in the Congress days, but seem quite apprehensive and insecure now in the BJP days. A small portion of them seem to dislike India, while another small portion of them seem to try to be holier than the pope (or Brahman) in their support for India. The others seem to be in between, like most Indian Hindus I have met.
It seems like they are in large enough numbers in India, where they do have security just due to their size. How secure would they be, if they constituted only around 2% of the population,as Hindus do in Pakistan? I don`t know.
Much like minorities in most third world countries, it seems to me like the Indian Muslims have missed the economic train. Of the hundreds of Indian IT professionals I have worked with here, maybe 2% were Muslim. Nearly every South Asian Muslim in IT in USA you will meet , will be a Pakistani. Hardly any Indian Muslims with me in college here either, though the classes were filled with Indian Hindus.
On the whole, I would say Indian minorities are more integrated into the society, due to their size and due to earlier Indian govt. policies, than the minorities in Pakistan (except Parsis and Ahmedis also maybe). They have far less, if any, constitutional discrimination. And I suppose less social discrimination, as well.
At the same time, everything seems to have changed now under the BJP. All the Indian sites I visit, specially Muslim sites, seem to indicate almost a hunter and prey scenario. The Indian minorities seem scared now. In that sense, I don`t think Pakistani minorities are, ``scared`` of the majority (except for the blasphemy law - which has been applied to Muslims also).
So, Indian minorites - larger in number thus with more clout, more integrated economically, less legal discrimination, but more scared and frustrated at the moment at their own govt and they direction their socieity is taking (things may not be terribly bad, but they seem to be on a downswing - I think BJP is the lowest point for them in Indian history).
Pakistani minorities - smaller in number thus will less clout, less or similarly integrated economically, more legal discrimnation, but quite a bit less scared and frustrated at the moment at their own govt. and the direction the society is taking (things are still not great for them, but they are on an upswing getting better - Zia days was their lowest point).
Just my observations.
#115 Posted by pmishra2 on February 1, 2003 9:17:18 am
ylh2 #96
Certainly none of us can compete with your sophistry and deviousness.
After blathering about how great your country is to minorities, you reveal that in fact (1) not a single hindu OF YOUR CLASS AND EDUCATION is personally known to you or to your friends (2) it doesnt matter that they are not on chowk, because chowk is a rat-hole.
IF CHowk is a rat-hole why are YOU publishing here? Obviously, Chowk is a crude but effective way of viewing the upwardly mobile, internet-savvy, english eductaed population of india and pakistan. But not to you...
Your statements are uncannily similar to statements that the most hardened and hate-filled hindu fascists like Bal Thackeray and Praveen Togadia. They make exactly the same statements you make about indian muslims that you have made about hindu pakistanis. The same specious reasoning (``How does it matter if indian muslims are under-represented on the police? See here is a poor muslim man who cleans my house``). They are your natual peers except that they have more humility.
Certainly none of us can compete with your sophistry and deviousness.
After blathering about how great your country is to minorities, you reveal that in fact (1) not a single hindu OF YOUR CLASS AND EDUCATION is personally known to you or to your friends (2) it doesnt matter that they are not on chowk, because chowk is a rat-hole.
IF CHowk is a rat-hole why are YOU publishing here? Obviously, Chowk is a crude but effective way of viewing the upwardly mobile, internet-savvy, english eductaed population of india and pakistan. But not to you...
Your statements are uncannily similar to statements that the most hardened and hate-filled hindu fascists like Bal Thackeray and Praveen Togadia. They make exactly the same statements you make about indian muslims that you have made about hindu pakistanis. The same specious reasoning (``How does it matter if indian muslims are under-represented on the police? See here is a poor muslim man who cleans my house``). They are your natual peers except that they have more humility.
#113 Posted by hamidm2 on February 1, 2003 9:17:18 am
...... i honestly think that indoos and pakis should stop interacting with each other .... the fact of the matter is that we loathe, despise and simply hate each other ....... as much as some of us might try to be politically correct and pretend to ``get along`` and say silly things like ``some of my best friends are hindoos or muslims`` , it is a futile effort to overcome this pathological, but quite reasonable, hatred .......... i will be the first one to admit that i don`t have any use for keralites or bombayites or anybody else who would rather worship a hamburger than eat it .........oh sure, i do socialize with some of these sideways head waggers on friday nights ( and, i must admit we do have a good time) but it is strictly out of necesssity - if i could find four good muslims to go drinking with, i would drop these infidels in a minute ......... the problem with most pakis is that as they get older they give up the spirits and become spiritual, closer to god and really quite useless as normal people on weekends ........ hence the dicotomy .............
......... so ylh, stop wasting your energy and talent on digging up jinnah and khushwant (isn`t he dead yet?) ......... it really doesn`t matter what a madrasi thinks about a lahori - as far as i can tell they are not even from the same planet ..........
lahore zindabad!
ylh zindabad!
hindustan murdabad!
......... so ylh, stop wasting your energy and talent on digging up jinnah and khushwant (isn`t he dead yet?) ......... it really doesn`t matter what a madrasi thinks about a lahori - as far as i can tell they are not even from the same planet ..........
lahore zindabad!
ylh zindabad!
hindustan murdabad!
#112 Posted by tahmed32 on February 1, 2003 9:17:18 am
m_souza #102 As a Pakistani, I am indeed saddened that the vast majority of hindus (and sikhs) who lived in what is now Pakistan were kicked out. My grandfather`s house used to be the property of a hindu family, and sometimes I have wondered what how hard it must have been for the owners to leave that wonderful house, and what memories they must have taken with them.
On the other hand, my family too, as I have mentioned on chowk before, had to leave East Panjab and flee for their lives because they were muslims. My mother was in a train that narrowly escaped slaughter by an anti-muslim mob, and she witnessed another train of muslims that was not so fortunate being stopped with passengers being dragged out and killed. Our ancestral village was 40 percent muslim, and half of them were killed and the other half escaped with what little belongings they could carry. We too had a home in East Panjab, and my elders too has many fond memories of that house. It is still standing, and my late father received a picture of that from the current occupants after he wrote a letter introducing himself (some old men of our ancestral village in India still remembered him) and expressing a desire to learn what happened after we left. He received a very warm letter with the picture in return, with the invitation to visit any time he wanted. I and the rest of my family wish that sikh family living in the house that used to be ours nothing but the best, and hope they too find as much happiness as my family did.
My point in burdening you with all this is as follows: You can exchange insults and putdowns about Pakistanis (and your soul-mates from pakistan can do the same about Indians). But you people will never understand the reality of the human tragedies involved in all this. Your exchanges on chowk are so superficial and petty that I find it incredible that any of you could actually be grown men.
On the other hand, my family too, as I have mentioned on chowk before, had to leave East Panjab and flee for their lives because they were muslims. My mother was in a train that narrowly escaped slaughter by an anti-muslim mob, and she witnessed another train of muslims that was not so fortunate being stopped with passengers being dragged out and killed. Our ancestral village was 40 percent muslim, and half of them were killed and the other half escaped with what little belongings they could carry. We too had a home in East Panjab, and my elders too has many fond memories of that house. It is still standing, and my late father received a picture of that from the current occupants after he wrote a letter introducing himself (some old men of our ancestral village in India still remembered him) and expressing a desire to learn what happened after we left. He received a very warm letter with the picture in return, with the invitation to visit any time he wanted. I and the rest of my family wish that sikh family living in the house that used to be ours nothing but the best, and hope they too find as much happiness as my family did.
My point in burdening you with all this is as follows: You can exchange insults and putdowns about Pakistanis (and your soul-mates from pakistan can do the same about Indians). But you people will never understand the reality of the human tragedies involved in all this. Your exchanges on chowk are so superficial and petty that I find it incredible that any of you could actually be grown men.
#111 Posted by arjun_m on February 1, 2003 9:17:18 am
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#110 Posted by arjun_m on February 1, 2003 9:17:18 am
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#109 Posted by arjun_m on February 1, 2003 9:17:18 am
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#108 Posted by arjun_m on February 1, 2003 9:17:18 am
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#107 Posted by arjun_m on February 1, 2003 9:17:18 am
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#106 Posted by roohi on February 1, 2003 9:17:18 am
Guys - The Shuttle exploded ...
Take a moment and pay your respects to a talented desi woman Dr. Kalpana Chawala the first Indian American woman astronaut. She was the daughter of parents who left Pakistan in 1947 and grew up in Karnal Haryana and got her degree from Punjab Engineering Collage Chandigardh before migrating to the US.
Kalpana on looking at the Earth from the Shuttle on her previous flight ...
``On the tenth or eleventh day, I wanted to do one full pass and sit by the door and watch the earth. Doing that was mind boggling. It really instilled this huge sense of how small earth is. An hour and a half and I could go around it. I could do all of the math and logic for why this was, but in the big picture the thing that stayed with me is this place is very small. I felt that every person needs to experience this because maybe we would take better care of this place. This planet below you is our campsite and you know of no other campground. I didn`t think this view would be something so philosophical-I thought I would just go around and see the continents and the oceans, but it was much more than that. ``
Take a moment and pay your respects to a talented desi woman Dr. Kalpana Chawala the first Indian American woman astronaut. She was the daughter of parents who left Pakistan in 1947 and grew up in Karnal Haryana and got her degree from Punjab Engineering Collage Chandigardh before migrating to the US.
Kalpana on looking at the Earth from the Shuttle on her previous flight ...
``On the tenth or eleventh day, I wanted to do one full pass and sit by the door and watch the earth. Doing that was mind boggling. It really instilled this huge sense of how small earth is. An hour and a half and I could go around it. I could do all of the math and logic for why this was, but in the big picture the thing that stayed with me is this place is very small. I felt that every person needs to experience this because maybe we would take better care of this place. This planet below you is our campsite and you know of no other campground. I didn`t think this view would be something so philosophical-I thought I would just go around and see the continents and the oceans, but it was much more than that. ``
#105 Posted by arjun_m on February 1, 2003 9:17:18 am
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#104 Posted by pmishra2 on February 1, 2003 9:17:17 am
The case of Joseph Copper has been raised here as an example of ``freedom of religion``. Mr. Cooper broke indian visa laws (a similar transgression in the US would have led to...) and is a fundamentalist hate monger.
I personally researched this case carefully. Here is my letter to the Pittsburgh Newspaper:
-----------------------------------------------------------
All right thinking people should condemn violence against
Joseph Cooper (Missionary slashed in India attack, January 29). The
indian
police has detained several people involved in the attack against him,
and
they will be punished according to the law.
However, your reporter failed to note that Joseph Cooper`s ``New Jerusalem Church``
web
site includes extensive hate speech and remarks against hindus and
hinduism. Some excerpts include:
http://www.prowebserv.com/faqs/worship.html
``Still people claim that Hinduism is great. Great in sinning? In
reality,
it can be seen that their worship is not towards expiation of sins nor
to
reach heaven. They form new gods and demons are associated with them! ``
http://www.prowebserv.com/faqs/sins.html
``Although humans are told not to do such things, the Hindu devotees are
only spoiled rather than benefitted in any way because of the evil
deeds
of their gods. ``
Your readers should examine these obnoxious and demeaning commentaries
to
gain insight into Joseph Cooper`s brand of ``religion``.
I personally researched this case carefully. Here is my letter to the Pittsburgh Newspaper:
-----------------------------------------------------------
All right thinking people should condemn violence against
Joseph Cooper (Missionary slashed in India attack, January 29). The
indian
police has detained several people involved in the attack against him,
and
they will be punished according to the law.
However, your reporter failed to note that Joseph Cooper`s ``New Jerusalem Church``
web
site includes extensive hate speech and remarks against hindus and
hinduism. Some excerpts include:
http://www.prowebserv.com/faqs/worship.html
``Still people claim that Hinduism is great. Great in sinning? In
reality,
it can be seen that their worship is not towards expiation of sins nor
to
reach heaven. They form new gods and demons are associated with them! ``
http://www.prowebserv.com/faqs/sins.html
``Although humans are told not to do such things, the Hindu devotees are
only spoiled rather than benefitted in any way because of the evil
deeds
of their gods. ``
Your readers should examine these obnoxious and demeaning commentaries
to
gain insight into Joseph Cooper`s brand of ``religion``.
#103 Posted by arjun_m on February 1, 2003 9:17:17 am
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