Towards Greater Tolerance

friend #233 `It is a revelation to know even saner Pakistanis like you also believe those stories of horrible Hindus hijacking there own aircrafts, killing their own citizens, throwing bombs on their own parliaments and in this incident, burning their own Hindu brothers, just to malign Pakistan and Muslims!! Do you really believe such stories to be true? Do you also believe in the theory of Mossad blowing up the trade center?`

Liberal or conservative, for all Pakistanis, these are articles of faith. You should read what Ardeshir Cowasjee wrote about Indians organizing attack on their own parliament building. Irrespective of their educational achievement, more than 90% share this thinking.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Ref arjun_m #245

[See what the director of the Pakistan institute of strategic studies thinks..India and the US are strategic partners and Pakistan is just a prophylactic....so much for the ``something gigantic is in the pipeline`` pipe dream..
__________________________________________________________

Yet, it is these developments that reflect the new realities in this region - that, India, as a strategic partner of the US is not to be subjected to any questions on its transgression of international norms and laws. Instead, it is states like Pakistan, who want to create their own space in the region, who are to be put under all manner of pressure and stress. This is the price we have to pay for being in the neighbourhood of the Indo-US strategic game plan and for still wanting to befriend the US with no quid pro quos.]

How neatly these guys turn the truth around to suit themselves! It is well-known that no Indian government has exported nuclear or missile technology to any country. On the other hand, China got away with selling both to Pakistan and Pakistan is strongly suspected of selling nuclear technology to North Korea. All that Powell could say about that was that Musharraf has promised that is has stopped and that he, Powell, was not going to go back to pre-Sep 11 time to analyze events.

But the statement that ``India, as a strategic partner of the US is not to be subjected to any questions on its transgression of international norms and laws``, is the propaganda that is being fed to the masses in Pakistan and that too to the English-speaking elite.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

LOL!!! Pakistan is a bastion of tolerance because the great Patrick Masih said so.

The reason Pakistan does not have pogroms against Hindus is the same reason India does not have pogroms against the Parsis. They are too insignificant too count. If the ethnic cleansing of Muslims in India in 1947 had been equal to what you did to us, we would not have pogroms either.

re YLH2:
``The point is that PM`s evidence as a successful minority Pakistani notwithstanding, the condition of the Minorities in Pakistan is despicable... ``
Yasser! Successful? hmmm... I think my mom would have a thing or two to say about that! I mean, she`d like me to have a regualr job, even if I can`t afford a brand new Honda Civic. :)
The condition of Minorities in some areas (both geographical and socio-political) is despicable (tho I wonder how much of it has to do with their ecnomic status and how much with their religious affiliation). Personally, as a middle-class Goan (not Syrian, LOL!) Christian living in Karachi, I have often been a ``victim`` of `reverse discrimination`. You could argue that Christians, like Parsis, are favoured in certain employment positions because of the reputation their communities have earned, but how that is different from stereotyping Muslims (albeitly negatively) because of Sept.11, I don;t really understand.
Bottom line, I speak for a vast majority of urban Minorities when I say that negative discrimination is not a major issue.
Having said that... it is only fair to point out that the majority of Christians and I think Hindus too live in rural-to-semirural areas and are often victims of harsh discrimination.

rgds,
PM
hey, my email addy is @hotmail.com. If you`ve forgotten that (swine!!) then send to postmatser@yahoo.com (please not the spelling)

Patrick Masih:

``It is well known that the Truce Agreement provisions require Pakistan, as a first step, to withdraw all its troops from J & K as well as secure the withdrawal of tribesemen and Pakistani nationals not normally resident in the state, and to hand over power to local authorities. ``

And this is the same as the current Indian position that Kashmir is entirely an internal matter and not negotiable, right````

What an idiot....Is India expected to sit around till the end of time to wait for Pakistan to fufill it`s part??? Maybe the second coming of the Mahdi???

Obviously, if the Pakistanis proceed to wreck havoc with their part of Kashmir (basically treating it as their baap ka maal) and do not make any effort to implement the UN Resolution, then why are we expected to do any different?

At least we retained the demographic balance of Kashmir, unlike you lot. If Nehru had brains he would have handed over the valley to Refugee Hindus and Sikhs from West Pakistan and today Kashmir would have been a fertile breadbasket of India rather than an economic basket case. The land would have been developed by Hindus and Sikhs and the Kashmiri Muslims could have earned excellent livlihood as labourers in rice fields and apple orchards. But thanks to his trying to prove points of secularism a basis for future problem was created.

Can we all please stop this overdone homage-paying to those seven unfortunates who lost their lives over the Texan skies. I mean, they knew full well the risks they were taking for the thrill (face it, being in outer space is a THRILL, first and foremost-- unless someone can convince me that shuttle missions and Hubbles bobbling actually contribute to the general welfare of mankind!) Perhaps us Pakis would do better to save our grief for the seven virtually unnamed innocents who lose their lives everyday to reckless driving by busdrivers while their masters (the traffic cop bigwigs) look th other way!

PM #237,
``Then why did you bother? :) ``
I am surprised at your caustic reply. Aleph will write his own replies but I do have right to write my feedback. Now if you are getting so touchy, just say so and I will desist.
Dear Patrick saheb, you have time & inclination to reply to tangential questions raised to YLH. ``Who is online`` feature & the spread of timestamp of your messages indicate that you are spending enough time on this forum. You claim this ``meri marzi`` only when you run out of arguments!!

w.r.t to yours ``which part of throw it Back``. I really don`t get it. Explain if you can. If you are in sh!t throwing business than all my best wishes are with you.

I will choose to believe BBC, I have seen enough false and biased reports in Pakistani press (Dawn, the News etc) to make that decision.

And yes, I pleaded ``Oh! PM please read UN resolutions`` as I thought that you will take an objective stance. I am now coming to conclusion that I was wrong.

Obviously you have read it, found that first steps was for Pakistan to withdraw from area invaded by her and have no explanations as to why that was not done.

Pakistani position is very simple ``hold the plebescite``. What happened to simple ``step 1`` - ``Pakistan withdrawing from the territories occupied by its forces and tribals and making conditions conducive to plebescite.``?

For fifty years, Pakistan didn`t honor the resolutions but kept harping on ``one muslim equals ten hindus`` and ````making India bleed with thousand cuts`` and having dreams of lunches in ``Jodhpur?`` and dinner in Delhi. Now that policy has shown to be throughly flawed, Pakistan started singing songs of ``at least keep it open to negotiation``. What negotiation you want to do? Kindly elaborate.

And I will wait for your detailed analysis of UN reolutions.

YLH2 : That is precisely why I am such a strong advocate of secularism and pluralistic democracy ... so that we can do away with these blots once and for all... just imagine how much progress we will make in this department...


India has secularism and a pluralistic democarcy and yet there are ferocious genocides of minorities on regular basis. According to your thesis it should not happen in India. As compared to them Pakistan seems to be a kingdom of heaven as per your article and posts which are being duly attested by PM. And this is when Paksitan has neither secularism nor democarcy. So either you are lying about Paksitan or you are beating about the wrong bush.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

re #friend:
In response to my comment to Aleph: ``Don`t hold your breath. I am neither blessed with the time, nor imbued with the inclination to expound on matters only tangential to my original comments...``
You write in #234:
``I trust Aleph to write his own reply.``
Then why did you bother? :)
``... I am accustomed to observing Romair going in hibernation and YLH pleading ``no time due to demands of ivy league education``. Your adopting same approach is totally unexpected!!``
friend sahib, which part of ``only tangential to my original comments`` did you not understand??

re. my comment, ``But it behoves one to throw cr@p back over the fence when one finds it in one`s backyard. ``

You write in #233:
``And this is really hilarious. So philosophy in Pakistan is that if you have cr&p in your own backyard, throw it over the fence. Dear Patrick, why not just clean it. Even while throwing, you have to touch it.``

So, I am prompted to ask, ``which part of throw it BACK..`` did you not get?

A for you comments on the Bishop taking his life, well, it`s certainly less evil than taking another`s, but silly all the same. It achieved nothing, except some raised eyebrows from his fellow ecclesiatics.

Now, you would be surprised to learn that folks in the inner circles of the churches to which that charitable organization (whose seven workers were killed) was linked know full well that the killings were committed in all likelihood by a rival Christian party. The atmosphere was ideal to deflect attention from themselves. Two months before this horrific incident, the leader of an oppsoing camp in this circle was found beaten, up gagged and left for dead in his office. Of course, you can choose to believe BBC whose headlines, a mere 12 hours following this incident, had somehow ascertained that ``Islamic extremists [had killed] Seven Christians``. Wonderfully objective reportage!

As for my assertion that the theory that the Godhra train was attacked and razed by Muslims has some serious holes, would you like me to post references to the same from the Indian press? And please don`t be so disingenuous as to associate this claim with other obviosuly hogwash ones in future. If you wish to engage in debate, tick to the issues beign discussed.

Now, you plead: ``PM!!!!! Why don`y you start with US resolutions, show us that Pakistani position is correct. Wait till that time to analyze Indian position.``

Pakistan`s position on Kashmir is simple: Hold the plebescite. If India has any intention at all to honour that resolution, it should at least leve the subject open to negotiation -- ask Pakistan to keep its end of the bargain, make sure their militia don`t infiltrate etc. -- so that IT (India) can then begin to think about playing it`s part. But you know India`s position, right? Summed up, it`s ``Kashmir is integral to India, so butt out, Pakistan!``

Hope that helps!

re #231 by rsaxena
[re: PM #229
...nobody cares... ]
Gee you`re sweet! Thanks for caring enough to letme know! :)

PM #223
re. friend #198:
``Gee, someone really hasn`t been reading the papers! Or haven`t you heard-- there are serious questions regarding the authenticity of the Godhra-train story. ``
It is a revelation to know even saner Pakistanis like you also believe those stories of horrible Hindus hijacking there own aircrafts, killing their own citizens, throwing bombs on their own parliaments and in this incident, burning their own Hindu brothers, just to malign Pakistan and Muslims!! Do you really believe such stories to be true? Do you also believe in the theory of Mossad blowing up the trade center?

``And would you also write about that old female who distributed sweets in a piece of paper? Or priest (was that a bishop!!) who had to commit suicide in a church?``

Did he successfully internationalize the plight of Pakistani Christians. Taking one`s own life is a hard decision, much harder than killing innocent people (read ``by your freedom fighters``)Obviously Bishop was not allowed to server his community that`s why he took this drastic step. What about a recent church bombing where only witness who somehow survived was grilled for his possible collusion with killers. Final report I read was that he disappeared. Tell me that this is also a fabricated report.

``But it behoves one to throw cr@p back over the fence when one finds it in one`s backyard. ``

And this is really hilarious. So philosophy in Pakistan is that if you have cr&p in your own backyard, throw it over the fence. Dear Patrick, why not just clean it. Even while throwing, you have to touch it.

Will look forward to your response on ``UN resolutions``.

PM #224
[re. AlephNull #206:
``It is well known that the Truce Agreement provisions require Pakistan, as a first step, to withdraw all its troops from J & K as well as secure the withdrawal of tribesemen and Pakistani nationals not normally resident in the state, and to hand over power to local authorities. ``

And this is the same as the current Indian position that Kashmir is entirely an internal matter and not negotiable, right? ]

PM!!!!! Why don`y you start with US resolutions, show us that Pakistani position is correct. Wait till that time to analyze Indian position.



PM #226
[re. AlephNull#223:

``That was why I had a multitude of questions to ask you in #72. They were NOT rhetorical. I trust you will be forthcoming with answers.``

Don`t hold your breath. I am neither blessed with the time, nor imbued with the inclination to expound on matters only tangential to my original comments. Soccer season is in full swing in Karachi, you see, and then there`s the World Cup starting on the 8th. ;) ]

I trust Aleph to write his own reply. I am accustomed to observing Romair going in hibernation and YLH pleading ``no time due to demands of ivy league education``. Your adopting same approach is totally unexpected!!

Prayers for Dr. Kalpana Chawla in Gujrat Pakistan,

I think it is heartening to note that Gujrat City Pakistan Writers forum held a meeting of condolence recently for the death of the first astronaut from our part of the world... The Indian American Woman Astronaut was an ethnic Gujrati Punjabi and her grandparents moved from Pakistan in 1947.

Gujrat is also the stronghold of kingmaker Ch.Shujaat.


Ok now on to the other issue...


I wonder why Indians think that if we say that minorities are only treated as badly in Pakistan as in India that we are paying ourselves some sort of a compliment...

The point is that PM`s evidence as a successful minority Pakistani notwithstanding, the condition of the Minorities in Pakistan is despicable... and the horrible events of Shantinagar, though nowhere close to the events in Gujurat and other places in India where christians and muslims are massacred mercilessly, are a blot on our conscience.

That is precisely why I am such a strong advocate of secularism and pluralistic democracy ... so that we can do away with these blots once and for all... just imagine how much progress we will make in this department...


Anyway ... for the Pakistani Hindu Perspective please visit:

Pakistani Hindu Patrika

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/7295/