Towards Greater Tolerance

re:

{ISLAMABAD - Pakistan reacted angrily yesterday to India`s reported decision to seek Israeli help in training its special forces troops, describing the cooperation between the two states as being `provocative and hostile`. }

....hahahaha...cry baby..

re: PM #229

...nobody cares...

At he cost of locking horns with the untamables:

#221 by arjun_m on February 3, 2003 6:49pm PT

``Kasuri needs to wear the cufflinks..Anything to take attention away from the fact that his visit has been a huge failure...

How can Kasuri talk about getting an exemption for Paks from the list, when Italy announced 28 Pakistanis being detained with a plot to kill British Police chief, bomb various facilities, etc? ``

I understand why are you so frustrated and angry. I symathise with your circumstances. I know that you read my message on Pakistani arrests before. I told you that 6 Pakistanis were also arrested By Kenya on similar charges, but were later released. So will be these Pakistanis. And how about the shoe bomber? Rest assured you will be wrong here too. HOW?

Did not you say that India has good relations with all the neighboring countries? Well, read the newspapers and find out about your relationship with Bangladesh now.

Or with Iran did you say?

Your Governemnt turned down Iranian gas line proposal, whereas Pakistan has executed an agreement with Iran for cooperating in the Indian ocean and other defense pacts, including naval exercises. Cosmetic of attending parades does not mean anything. Determine the main reason for the visit of Iranians to your country and then find out what was the achievement against that target.

Sorry, I did not want to hurt your feelings. See you next time angry man.

re. my various wrong referencing of posts.
Since my LAN server seems intent on serving me pages from it`s cache, and I can`t bypass it while browsing, I`m trying to cheat it by fiddling with the passed variables` values. This is resulting in skewed numbering of posts.
Any suggestions (short of killing my LAN admin to enable proxy bypass) would be welcome.

re. my various wrong referencing of posts.
Since my LAN server seems intent on serving me pages from it`s cache, and I can`t bypass it while browsing, I`m trying to cheat it by fiddling with the passed variables` values. This is resulting in skewed numbering of posts.
Any suggestions (short of killing my LAN admin to enable proxy bypass) would be welcome.

re. AlephNull#223:
``I would like to know WHY you consider ``every-village-a-nation`` to be the ideal degree of devolution of sovereignty. For starters, ideal with respect to WHAT? What is it that you seek to maximise - `individual freedom/autonomy`, `social coherence`, `participatory democracy/self-government`, `material wealth`, `safety from violence`, `shared historical consciousness`; some other factor; a weighted combination of one or more of the above? When you mention autonomy above, are you referring to the autonomy of the individual, or of social groups? If it is a social group, HOW is it chosen as deserving of autonomy, and what makes its claims more deserving than those of all other possible groupings, from single individuals to multicultural multiethnic megastates?``

Consider this a preliminary, more or less of the top-off-my head reply. Extent of autonomy and devolution is always problematic in philosophy, and I am guessing consitutes differences in fundamental political theory/philosophy. So, in that sense, if you`re looking for an answer the whole world can agree on, you will be disappointed. (Admittedly, not being a Political Science student, I might be mistaken, but not likely so).

Only if we can agree on the idea and extent of autonomy (for me it IS the individual that is paramount, in so far as his liberty/autonomy doesn`t interfere with that of others -- I know, a can of worms in itself!)-- unless we have such agreement, all talk is less than meaningful and not likely to end in agreement. Commonality of premise is a requirement for that of conclusion, right?

``That was why I had a multitude of questions to ask you in #72. They were NOT rhetorical. I trust you will be forthcoming with answers.``

Don`t hold your breath. I am neither blessed with the time, nor imbued with the inclination to expound on matters only tangential to my original comments. Soccer season is in full swing in Karachi, you see, and then there`s the World Cup starting on the 8th. ;)

rgds,
PM

harimau, re. #223
Amen, bro!

Ana,
Sorry if the `obscure` characterization offended. It was meant to connote the distance from maisntream culture (or educated anyway, no matter how GhalibZaman would chose to define that word :) )
Your ``home away from home ...`` I am doubly saddened to hear that lives indeed were lost. If only becuase it would comment on the integrity of media reportage, I wonder if you could tell us, if it doesn`t open old wounds, some of the accounts of those deaths. Were there lynchings, maimings?
regards,
PM

re. AlephNull #206:
``It is well known that the Truce Agreement provisions require Pakistan, as a first step, to withdraw all its troops from J & K as well as secure the withdrawal of tribesemen and Pakistani nationals not normally resident in the state, and to hand over power to local authorities. ``

And this is the same as the current Indian position that Kashmir is entirely an internal matter and not negotiable, right?

re. friend #198:
[PM #204
``Residents were given the opportunity to flee. ``
wow! what a great proof of tolerance. Residents were allowed to flee!!...
Certainly we have our bands of crooks, but coming from Pakistan, such comments look ridiculous.``]

Can it already! We were discussing respective modes of organized violence against Minority communities.

``Wonder if they wanted to give such a chance to ``flee`` to Godhra train passengers too. Perhaps those passengers didn`t take that chance.``

Gee, someone really hasn`t been reading the papers! Or haven`t you heard-- there are serious questions regarding the authenticity of the Godhra-train story.

``And would you also write about that old female who distributed sweets in a piece of paper? Or priest (was that a bishop!!) who had to commit suicide in a church?``

Sorry I can help with the old lady incident (perhaps I was out of the country then), but I can tell you what many Christians (clergy included-- or mostly!) think of Bishop John Joseph`s suicide. P-O-L-I-T-I-C-A-L stunt. He could have served thecommunity better LIVING to fight another day.``

``PM, perhaps we should not be competing on ``whose sh!t stinks more``. We all stink.``

True, friend. And I am quick to point out that Pakistan is far from angelic. But it behoves one to throw cr@p back over the fence when one finds it in one`s backyard.

Will get back to you on the UN resolutions later in the week.
(Thanks for the pointers, Aleph)

rgds,
PM

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Umer #213.
yaar, i wish i had read that when i was a kid all those years ago, then perhaps I wouldn`t be alone, and i`d still have a sitar, perhaps an even bigger one than the one I smashed to pieces-- an insult to the craftsmen on Ratan Chand Road, and my parents` checkbook!!!!

all levity and jokes aside...yes, wouldn`t it be nice if we could ALL go back to nursery, and we ALL had teachers who taught us more positive ways of responding to tearing a page, throwing a holy book on the ground, being ignored, what have you? From what i remember of being in school though...sometimes the positive teachers made little to no impact...
:-)

Ref PM #204

[Duh! A majority of Pakistan`s 5 million (handful?) Christians and Hindus live in religiously homogenous townships. The nearest thing to an organized riot against a minority community occured in an obscure Punjabi Christian rural township called Shantinagar in `96. In response to a call from an unpaDh mullah citing blasphemy, a mob of equally ignorant Muslims from surrounding towns basically burnt the town to the ground. Despicable, no doubt. But no lives were taken. Residents were given the opportunity to flee.]

So, it is okay for ignorant Muslims to burn property down for an unproved charge of blasphemy but Hindus are not supposed to avenge the burning to death of some 60 pilgrims?

Does anyone even remember that of the 1200 dead in the Gujarat riots, quite a few were Hindus? Or, have they all been admitted to The True Faith posthumously so that they can receive the 72 houris and 24 ghilmans?

I remember posting statistics that showed that PROPORTIONATELY (based on population ratio) there were more Hindus displaced by the riots. I remember the deafening silence with which that statistic was greeted on Chowk.

Patrick

I am not contending your assertion ``India also shares the blame`` but not in the sense you mean. Had Mr. Jinnah not shown the avarice to take the entire Kashmir by force, Paistan would have got the valley while Jammu/Laddakh would have gone to India. Like Punjab and Bengal, Mr. Jinnah attempted to take the entire Kashmir instead of demanding its division according to demographics and failed. You may also perhaps know that the idea of plebiscite was rejected by Jinnah. This is not to ``blame`` Mr. Jinnah. He was doing what he thought would serve the interests of his newly created nation. When it comes to the international diplomacy, it is not the morality but the interests that are important and Mr. Jinnah was doing exactly that. But then you also have no right to complain about his miscalculation/failure.

PS India does indeed share the blame on account of its multiple mistakes and we both know it.

#110 Arjun:

Good link.

Is this the same Mr Ijaz(Fox news-``analyst-cum-security expert``?)
If so, when did he get his doctorate (now he is Dr Mansur Ijaz)

One article mentioned that Kasuri was all ``decked with cufflinks, polished shoes, three-piece suite and all that``; I thought the 3-piece suit was passe`. Cufflink/bracelet??? My, My....The last time I saw someone sporting a cufflink, bracelet is a used-car fasttalking salesman smelling of burnt cheap coffee. Was he also wearing a ``Polka`` tie, ``power``(red) tie? polka is long passe`, power tie is a big no/no....he could worn
plain dockers/polo t-shirt.

How can Kasuri talk about getting an exemption for Paks from the list, when Italy announced 28 Pakistanis being detained with a plot to kill British Police chief, bomb various facilities, etc?

Forget about the list, Mr Haider(TFT fame) also was detained while taking a smoke break according to news report.