Towards Greater Tolerance

YLH .... ``Some 5.5 Million Muslims were ethnically cleansed from East Punjab and areas neighboring Pakistan, and some 3.5 million Hindus from West Punjab and Sindh then packed up and left for India. `` ... ``Infact some will argue that Pakistan has never had the kind of en masse massacres as one sees in Gujurat and other communally troubled parts of India. ``

Honestly you should really add to this the 10 Million refugees from Bangladesh into India during 1971 Yasser. You should really add to this the well documented massacres of Hindus (and Bengali Muslims) in Bangladesh during the same period as an instrument of Pakistani policy. Talk about glaring ommision !

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In the summary of his report dated November 1, 1971 Senator Edward Kennedy writes (6):

`Field reports to the U.S. Government, countless eye-witness journalistic accounts, reports of International agencies such as World Bank and additional information available to the subcommittee document the reign of terror which grips East Bengal (East Pakistan). HARDEST HIT HAVE BEEN MEMBERS OF THE HINDU COMMUNITY WHO HAVE BEEN ROBBED OF THEIR LANDS AND SHOPS, SYSTEMATICALLY SLAUGHTERED, AND IN SOME PLACES, PAINTED WITH YELLOW PATCHES MARKED ``H``. All of this has been officially sanctioned, ordered and implemented under martial law from Islamabad. ..`

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The Refugee Situation (from virtualbangladesh.com)

According to National Geographic (Sept. 1972), the estimated number of Bangladeshi refugees was 10.0 million. According to the Indian government the number of refugees was 8.3 million (8/31/71). Other sources:

Other reports

Washington Daily News 6/30/71 6.0 million
Die Zeit 7/9/71 6.0 million
New York Times 7/14/71 6.0 million
St. Louis Post-Dispatch 8/1/71 6.5 million
Newsweek 8/2/71 7.5 million
Time 9/2/71 7.5 million
Sen. Kennedy 8/15/71 12.0 million
The UN in Bangladesh 1972 10.0 million
Newsweek 3/27/72 10.0 million

I hope you do understand the difficulties involved in estimating the total number of refugees. It is clear that by end of Aug., 1971, the number of refugees was around 6-7 million. By the middle of Dec., the number reached 10 million. Also, a large number of people were displaced within the country, estimated number was around 20 million (The UN in Bangladesh).[The United Nations in Bangladesh -- Thomas W. Oliver, Reports Officer at UNROD/UNROB headquarters in 1973.UNROD.United Nations Relief Operations in Dhaka. UNROB. United Nations Relief Office in Bangladesh.]

Partition was a big human tragedy. Lots of people are dead. Millions had to leave their homes for foreign lands. I think Indians should stop pointing fingers at Pakistan and move along. I could care less who was responsible.

I don`t know how Pakistan was before Gen Zia took over. In the 1990`s Pakistan has followed a nasty narrow exclusivist ideology. If you can turn a friendly Muslim state like Iran into a foe that speaks for itself. Even with all the trouble caused by the BJP/RSS/VHP crowd Indian Muslims would stay in India rather than go to Pakistan. Now that tells me one of 2 things. Things are not as bad in India. Or things are not any rosier in Pakistan.

I have seen 2 news reports of violence towards Hindus in Pakistani newspapers in 8 years of reading Pakistani newspapers and Pakistani link news digests. I have to assume either it is not news worthy or Islamic to report acts of intolerance towards Hindus ir Pakistanis are the most tolerant, compassionate people in the world. I will let readers decide which one it is.

jay # 140

This is serious. Does the author just make up facts, or is Jay wrong?

Are there in every major Pakistani city roads, halls, institutes, schools, and libraries named after Dr. Abdus Salam, as Yasser Latif Hamdani claims, or none as Jay claims?

What is the truth?

My answers to some concerns of the Indians as pointed pout by the write of this article:

1) Partition was the greatest tragedy in the history of mankind. Hindus are doodh kay dhulay, but the muslas are the devils who caused this vivisection.

The Indians should note that it was secular, liberal democratic Muslims who wanted to have an independent homeland in the northwest of Asian Subcontinent. They got it through democratic means. The fundamentalist Mullas, that the Indians call ``Jihadi terrorists``, wanted to remain with India.

2) Pakistan is based on a narrow exclusivist ideology.

If it is so, then the same goes for Israel and to an extent Ireland. Indians friends talking on this interactive board about vedic Pakistan and Hindu region are going in the same direction.

3) Pakistan `solved` its minority problem by ethnic cleansing Hindus and Sikhs in 1947. Remaining minorities live in conditions worse than animals today.

Not only the minorities have remained relatively unharmed in Pakistan as compared to India, new minorities have also made Pakistan their home - Bahais from Iran, Hazara ( belonging to Shia sect) and Tajiks from Afghanistan, Bengalis, Vietnamese, Chinese have settled in Pakistan.

An unfortunate trend of 1970s and 80s was that as pro-communism Tajiks and Uzbels migrated from CARs to Afghanistan under the patronage of former Soviet Union, anti-communism Pakhtoons in those areas migrated first to central and southern Afghanistan and then to Pakistan. These Pakhtoons are either nomadic or tribals and feel free to enter both the countries unrestrained. If today somebody tells them that they cannot enter Afganistan without the risk of being categorized as Talibans, this would be utterly wrong.

dullabhatti 136:

why do you have to start poking fun already? granted Qaid-e-Azam didn`t know the meaning of a gym or good health, it doesn` t mean we can`t assume he was all for it. as for changing the name, `yasser from america`s gym` would do just fine.

on a serious note, it`s a great business if you can spend the time. and being in pakistan, you don`t need to worry about being a certified trainer.

re: the article
It is good to see ylh defend secularism, a concept alien to Pakistan. For people like him, there is a battle to be fought with mullahs and other religious zealots.
Sridhar

FERZOK 11,

``He asks us to tell us of one road named after this great Pakistani hero... I say I`ll show him one in every major city, and halls, and institutes and schools, and libraries named after the great man...
``
tHE ABOVE QUOTE IS FROM POST 94 BY ylh. Ferzok, if you are a man bold enough to tell the truth, if you are a man who believes that hatred will destroy, it might be useful to make a beginning by telling the truth, truth about pakistan.

Ferzok, respond to the above quote from YLH. Tell the truth that there are no roads in pakistan named after abdus salam, show by example that there are times when one has to tell the truth. For once let the chowk people know that there is one pakistani who tells the truth, however grotesque the truth might be.

Keep on writing YLH.

Ras

re: question of fundamental rights
Supreme court of India has ruled several times in the past that it is not possible for the Parliament to enact laws that would seek to change the basic nature of the constitution. Url: (PDF format)
www.humanrightsinitiative.org/programs/constitutionalism/publications/the_basic_structure_of _the_indian_constitution.pdf

Muslims in India need not worry. The Supreme Law of the land will defend their faith and rights every time they are infringed. Few countries in that part of the world can boast of such liberal laws. This is the only reason why no temple has ever been built on the area of Babri Masjid. No party can say so openly as it would be an infringement of fundamental rights of the muslms. BJP has done the next best. It has exploited the issue as much as it can for electoral gains and moved on to greener pastures viz islamic terrorism.
Sridhar

re:#124 by temporal
I feel sad by the death of those astronauts. You are wrong in saying that Kalpana Chawla`s name was not even mentioned. It was mentioned several times. CNN even showed a small interview with her talking about her work and ending with a prophetic remark`` I have lived my life``.
Israeli astronaut is a national hero in Israel (which Ms Chawla is not in India). He was an ace pilot, one of the daredevils who took out the Iraqi nuclear installations in the 80s. Also, do not forget that jews control the media in US.
Sridhar

re: #131 by freethinker
You need not apologise. I have been feeling sick after hearing the news. I am just watching CNN like a zombie. Life will never be fair. I read about the Chawla family in rediff. A true testimony to the Punjabi spirit of entrepreneurship.
http://www.rediff.com/news/2003/feb/01spec.htm

Ms Chawla made it to the top by merit. It is a rare honor to be selected to be part of the crew which went took that fated journey. We, belonging to South Asia, are justified in feeling proud about her achievements.
Sridhar

Dear Yasser: Thank you for a well written article. Being a Zoroastrian I never felt discriminated against in Pakistan. You are right that minorities in Pakistan are treated well. Keep up the good work. I have learnt a lot from your writings. Regards,

ally #134 I think I have in you an ally (in asking the chowk bickerers to grow up) whose parents crossed the India-Pakistan border in 1947 from the west to the east even as mine were crossing in the other direction.
:-)
I see that you also give some good advice to these chowk bickerers from pakistan and from india.
And it is in that spirit of our common humanity, that I join you and temporal and roohi and freethinker and others in mourning todays tragedy. The people who died today represented not just the US or Israel or African Americans or Indian Americans. They represented all humanity. They died for something that is worth striving for - advancements in science, including space exploration.
That is a truly a noble cause.

Yaseer Latifey --


You like selective quotations to prove your points. Now let me propose and than prove
Conclusion:
Bhutto was a cheat.
Proof:
: ``Zulfi was only 13 when he was first married to an older cousin Shireen, whose married name is Amir Begum. She was one of the three daughters of his wealthiest uncle, Khan Bahadur Ahmad Khan Bhutto, one third of whose wadero estate would be inherited by Zulfikar after his father-in-laws death. The bride was much older than her adolescent groom, but he took her to Kashmir`s Srinagar for their honeymoon and handed all bills to his father-in-law, who reluctantly paid. Zulfikar assured his second bride, Begum Nusrat, that his first marriage was ``purely for the property. However shortly after his daughter Benazir was born, Amir Begum also gave birth to a daughter.`` (Zulfi Bhutto of Pakistan: His Life and Times, Oxford, New York, 1993, p.22).

Will you agree with my conclusion based on ``Wolpert``

Rozaiba: Knowing yasser we know first thing to happen to the gym would be name change to ``Jinnah`s Secular Gym - for madrassah training camp bound youth``(MTCBY) with a life size portrait of Jinnah on every wall. The minor detail that Jinnah probably never went to a gym should not deter the name change because I am sure he did point out to youngsters(like every elder) the benefits of good health at least once.:)

temporal #124

over here, in the UK its the same, heart goes out to all the families who had to watch that happen to their loved ones... I am pretty sure that Kalpana will inspire many more South Asian women to aim higher... May God Bless their souls... Ameen


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#108 by tahmed32 on February 1, 2003 9:17am PT
My point in burdening you with all this is as follows: You can exchange insults and putdowns about Pakistanis (and your soul-mates from pakistan can do the same about Indians). But you people will never understand the reality of the human tragedies involved in all this. Your exchanges on chowk are so superficial and petty that I find it incredible that any of you could actually be grown men.

Agree with you, my dad still doesn`t talk about his journey from India, i think it traumatised him, and my Boah (phoophee, for the Urdu vallahs) goes on about Des all the time, she has such emotion and tears come to her eyes often, i think those ppl dissing each other here, should ask those that actually went thru it... I hope you at least go back to see your old house, my chacha went back to our house years ago, i would love to go (especially now that chacha has passed), i am planning on going next year InshAllah...

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#107 by hamidm2 on February 1, 2003 9:17am PT
...... i honestly think that indoos and pakis should stop interacting with each other .... the fact of the matter is that we loathe, despise and simply hate each other ....... as much as some of us might try to be politically correct and pretend to ``get along`` and say silly things like ``some of my best friends are hindoos or muslims`` , it is a futile effort to overcome this pathological, but quite reasonable, hatred .......... i will be the first one to admit that i don`t have any use for keralites or bombayites or anybody else who would rather worship a hamburger than eat it .........oh sure, i do socialize with some of these sideways head waggers on friday nights ( and, i must admit we do have a good time) but it is strictly out of necesssity - if i could find four good muslims to go drinking with, i would drop these infidels in a minute ......... the problem with most pakis is that as they get older they give up the spirits and become spiritual, closer to god and really quite useless as normal people on weekends ........ hence the dicotomy .............

......... so ylh, stop wasting your energy and talent on digging up jinnah and khushwant (isn`t he dead yet?) ......... it really doesn`t matter what a madrasi thinks about a lahori - as far as i can tell they are not even from the same planet ..........

lahore zindabad!
ylh zindabad!
hindustan murdabad!

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LOL funniest post yet


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Does it really metter how or what, the fact is Pakistan IS.

To all the Pakistanis,

What the Indians say has truth to it (the truth hurts), even our own ppl say this, no wonder US and EU are so sceptical... However now that the Indians (some with great glee) have pointed out many of our shortcomings, we should get out of our warped, state brainwashed, big brother (1984 the book not the TV series) style mindset/lock and actually do something about it

To all the Indians,

you know our shortcomings, and so do many of our ppl (the ones still living there)... instead of constantly trying to put down, demean, and degrade with great vindictiveness the land of the OolTy Ganga (i think thats another name for the River Indus), would it not make sense that you maybe offer advice, or suggestions or something constructive to Pakistanis that would actually aid us in bettering our country, and get rid of our problems (way to wishful). After all wouldn`t a stable, more democratic and freer Pakistan also be somewhat beneficial to India (in the grander scheme of things, although i know some of us (Pakistanis and Indians) just love to hate and be petty)...

has it ever occured to you that the saner elements of Pakistani society actually might need some encouragement, support, morale boosting for the challenges ahead?