Towards Greater Tolerance

Ref Romair #92

[To tell you the truth, I don`t really know. Nearly all the Hindus live in Sind, I believe. I have never lived in the areas they live in. You would have to ask someone from Sind. I have interacted with, and am friends with, a lot of Christians and a few Parsis (and Ahmedis, if you count them as minorities). I had only met two Hindus in my whole life, before moving to the USA.]

I can understand such a situation if you had lived all your life in small towns in Pakistan. For instance, I had not met a Parsi when I lived as a small child in Tamil Nadu and when I first saw Parsi names on billboards in Bombay, I actually thought they were names of Muslims. Much later, I managed to figure out the differences in the names of Parsis and Muslims.

But I had no problem identifying a Christian or a Muslim because we had them in abundance in the small town I grew up in. I even saw a Sikh there who probably was a government official, 1500 miles from Punjab.

Right now the provision merchant we have used for 20 years in Madras is a Muslim. From being a stone`s throw away from his store, we have moved about a mile but we still buy from him because we have been his customers for a long time. You will find this kind of close proximity between people of all religions in any place in India. In fact, there are definitely more Muslims in any part of Madras than Bengalis or Marathis or Rajasthanis. Walk down any street and you will see a hardware store owned by a Muslim next to a medical shop owned by a Hindu or some such thing. We pay no attention to it because it is not something strange like a calf with two heads or a goat with 6 legs.

Like Veeresh, I am just amazed at the lack of diversity in Pakistan.

Yaseer Latifey,
You are back to your naraa-bazi.
``Long live Khushwant Signh`s India``
Before it suits your distorted arguments. Your basic premise starts with a reference from Kushwant Singh who argues that Savarkar started of hindutva Hindutva and Bankim and other supported him. I have shown you that his facts are incorrect. Is it not sufficient for you to agree that Kushwant`s other premises may also be be wrong.

Selective quotations do not server any purpose. A pet slogan of yours is ``Jiye Bhutto`` and your pet author is Wolpert. I can quote from Wolpert where he says Bhutto to be a shallow character and basically proves him to be charlton. Will you agree with Wolpert in this case or with Bhutto?
Perhaps best will be to do your own research before shooting your mouth off.

An if selective quotations are what you want, I can quote from Karakoram Students Federations, Baltistan Lawyers Associations and dozens of other organization that state that Pakistan treats even its own muslim minorities like dirt. Would you be receptive to that?

“What happened to the Hindus of Pakistan, the largest group amongst minorities? I suppose they are wandering the desert in Balochistan”

harimau..the hindus were kicked out of the land of their ancient civilization by those who converted. (I am sure their souls are constantly cursing paksitan). And now the few of the leftover scared Pakistani Hindooooooooos hide somewhere so as to earn their bread and butter peacefully

#83 by Naqshbandi on January 31, 2003 8:14pm PT

“To Romair bhai
As to your general question the Muslim world is split generally into a number of sects the main, in our time, being Sunni (i.e. those on the aqida of Imam Ash`ari and Imam Maturidi AND who follow one of the 4 madhhabs of Sunni fiqh (Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi`i, Hanbali) --including the Sufi tariqats within the Sunnis; the Shias (who are divided in subsects: Ithna Isharis[`Rafidis---but see quote below], Zaydis, Ismailis) and the Wahabis/Wahabi-influenced groups (eg some Deobandis, Ahle Hadis) and other ghair-muqallids (those who do not follow a single school of thought). About 90% of the Muslims by the above definition are Sunnis.”


Ufff…such an elaborate Caste System !!! Gosh..no wonder they kill each other. (unlike the caste systems in other religions)

#61 by arjun_m on January 31, 2003 2:50pm PT

“President Muhammad Khatami of Iran, who has just concluded a state visit to India, told a gathering in New Delhi that Mahmood Ghaznavi was a marauder who plundered and destroyed Somnath. He added that Mahmood Ghaznavi did not represent Islamic values; he was a military invader and his 17 assaults on India have no relation with Islam or Islamic principles.”

Arjun..yes indeed there is no problem between the Muslims world over and India. And look at Pakistan…they name their missiles after Ghazni and Ghuari…so as to scare India.
The very invaders who are responsible for making paksitan what it is today are so dearly loved in paksitan. No wonder, the ancestors of pakisitni land (hindus) curse them.

Probably..this is the only way Paksitanis can feel happy about being Muslim, to try to truly belong. In order to love their current religion, they have to hate the religion of their ancestors otherwise they might feel guilty or may get confused.

Yasser, your article was most educational. The best aspect was the genuine attempt to reach out to true Indian intellectuals like K. Nayyar. I too am dismayed by the ``saffronization`` of India; a process by which the extremists there want to recreate an exclusionist and over-simplified brand of history and culture. Very similar to the Wahabisation/Talibanization of Pakistani society.
I was also touched by your admission that Shiite and Ahmadi muslims in Pakistan are victimized by extremists. As a recent expat, your writing brings back some optimism for a better Pakistan in the future.
Nonetheless, before we can achieve Jinnah`s vision of a pluralist and tolerant Pakistan, we have to deal (peacefully) with the ``JaisheMohammads`` who have hijacked our soceity.

To:
jaishemuhammad #86: ``I will not lie to please Shias (jews). Allah`s word is final. Learn more about shias (jews). See the proof. `

http://kafir.8m.net/ ``

Sir,

Are you that insecure about your beliefs that you have to manufacture lies against those whose beliefs differ from yours? Don`t you realize that your rabid intolerance and violence against shias (and ahmadis and Christains and Jews) actually makes their case stronger?

I saw your site and it was the cliched, divine hogwash that I had seen hundreds of times before. What about giving Peace a chance? After all, is that not what OUR common religious affiliation Islam translates to?

Back to Yasser, keep up the keep good work and really liked your letter in the Daily times.

Qambar Abbas

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The case of Joseph Copper has been raised here as an example of ``freedom of religion``. Mr. Cooper broke indian visa laws (a similar transgression in the US would have led to...) and is a fundamentalist hate monger.

I personally researched this case carefully. Here is my letter to the Pittsburgh Newspaper:

-----------------------------------------------------------
All right thinking people should condemn violence against
Joseph Cooper (Missionary slashed in India attack, January 29). The
indian
police has detained several people involved in the attack against him,
and
they will be punished according to the law.

However, your reporter failed to note that Joseph Cooper`s ``New Jerusalem Church``
web
site includes extensive hate speech and remarks against hindus and
hinduism. Some excerpts include:

http://www.prowebserv.com/faqs/worship.html

``Still people claim that Hinduism is great. Great in sinning? In
reality,
it can be seen that their worship is not towards expiation of sins nor
to
reach heaven. They form new gods and demons are associated with them! ``

http://www.prowebserv.com/faqs/sins.html

``Although humans are told not to do such things, the Hindu devotees are
only spoiled rather than benefitted in any way because of the evil
deeds
of their gods. ``

Your readers should examine these obnoxious and demeaning commentaries
to
gain insight into Joseph Cooper`s brand of ``religion``.

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Guys - The Shuttle exploded ...

Take a moment and pay your respects to a talented desi woman Dr. Kalpana Chawala the first Indian American woman astronaut. She was the daughter of parents who left Pakistan in 1947 and grew up in Karnal Haryana and got her degree from Punjab Engineering Collage Chandigardh before migrating to the US.

Kalpana on looking at the Earth from the Shuttle on her previous flight ...

``On the tenth or eleventh day, I wanted to do one full pass and sit by the door and watch the earth. Doing that was mind boggling. It really instilled this huge sense of how small earth is. An hour and a half and I could go around it. I could do all of the math and logic for why this was, but in the big picture the thing that stayed with me is this place is very small. I felt that every person needs to experience this because maybe we would take better care of this place. This planet below you is our campsite and you know of no other campground. I didn`t think this view would be something so philosophical-I thought I would just go around and see the continents and the oceans, but it was much more than that. ``

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m_souza #102 As a Pakistani, I am indeed saddened that the vast majority of hindus (and sikhs) who lived in what is now Pakistan were kicked out. My grandfather`s house used to be the property of a hindu family, and sometimes I have wondered what how hard it must have been for the owners to leave that wonderful house, and what memories they must have taken with them.
On the other hand, my family too, as I have mentioned on chowk before, had to leave East Panjab and flee for their lives because they were muslims. My mother was in a train that narrowly escaped slaughter by an anti-muslim mob, and she witnessed another train of muslims that was not so fortunate being stopped with passengers being dragged out and killed. Our ancestral village was 40 percent muslim, and half of them were killed and the other half escaped with what little belongings they could carry. We too had a home in East Panjab, and my elders too has many fond memories of that house. It is still standing, and my late father received a picture of that from the current occupants after he wrote a letter introducing himself (some old men of our ancestral village in India still remembered him) and expressing a desire to learn what happened after we left. He received a very warm letter with the picture in return, with the invitation to visit any time he wanted. I and the rest of my family wish that sikh family living in the house that used to be ours nothing but the best, and hope they too find as much happiness as my family did.
My point in burdening you with all this is as follows: You can exchange insults and putdowns about Pakistanis (and your soul-mates from pakistan can do the same about Indians). But you people will never understand the reality of the human tragedies involved in all this. Your exchanges on chowk are so superficial and petty that I find it incredible that any of you could actually be grown men.