Towards Greater Tolerance

Yasser Latif Hamadani:

You are a pride & joy to be around. Please visit often.
Khudaa tumm ko upnee hifz-O-amaan mein rakhhay.

You are doing what a coward like me could only pathetically dream about....serving Pakistan while within Pakistan. A promise kept is a promising beginning!

Teach us more as you hone your skills sparring with the hindus here. They know not how valuable they are for you. Verily, Allahs` ways & means are mysterious.

wassalaam.

A (mercifully) abbreviated version of this article was published in the OpEd pages of Dawn on January 20th 2003.

This is vintage YLH. The same old arguments, nothing new here at all.

BTW, it is `Hindutva`, not `Hinduvta` - the `-tva` ending is exactly cognate with English `-ity` or Latin `-itas`. And it is probably Sri Prakasha, not `Prikasa`. It`s a wonder we diidn`t get to hear about Kuldip Narain yet again. Nitpicks, but YLH ought to get these small details right if he insists on dwelling on them on a chronic basis.

``Some 5.5 Million Muslims were ethnically cleansed from East Punjab and areas neighboring Pakistan, and some 3.5 million Hindus from West Punjab and Sindh then packed up and left for India.``

This represents the level of history understood by the author. The task of promoting tolerance should be left in better hands.

Ref Manjit #4

Well, here is simething more about myth-making in Pakistan, written by someone with much greater credibility than that dear boy Yasser Latif Hamdani.

http://www.gulf-news.com/Articles/news.asp?ArticleID=75822

Chakwal Diary: Caught in the muddle
|By Ayaz Amir | 31-01-2003

In the October elections in which I was a candidate for the National Assembly my opponents, rolling out their heaviest artillery, charged me with being a Qadiani.

On the strength of a column I had written about the exploitation of religion as a political tool by successive governments, in which I had also referred to legislation against the Qadianis, a local maulana, Qazi Mazhar Hussain, issued a fatwa to the effect that I was ``pro-Qadiani``.

Only too happy to get this incendiary ammunition into their hands, my opponents from the Q League – ah! the Q League – circulated the fatwa far and wide.

From every platform my good friend General Majid Malik, in times past a worthy ornament to the general staff (and then novitiates wonder why the army has such a talent for making a mess of things), denounced me as a Qadiani. Adding for good measure, that I was also a drunkard.

Nor was this all. A spirited young maulvi, Shakoori Naqshbandi by name, holding out the offending column in his hands after the Asar prayers declared to his small congregation that after what I had written it was an Islamic duty to kill me (wajab-ul-qatal). He then went to distribute the original fatwa in the bazaar.

Shakoori`s maternal family are my neighbours and our relations have always been cordial. Why was he doing this? Because he had come to me a few days earlier saying that in view of his great popularity, his friends and supporters were urging him to stand for the provincial assembly on the MMA ticket.

Since he was asking my advice, I told him that if he felt so strongly about it he should stand by all means but that it would also help if he was a bit more consistent in his actions.

In which connection I pointed out that whereas after September 11 he had helped burn tyres as a mark of protest against the United States` war on Afghanistan, during the referendum he had felt no qualms in mounting the stage when the Punjab Governor, Khalid Maqqbool, had arrived in Chakwal.

Red in the face and a bit agitated Shakoori walked out of my house. A few days later he was issuing invitations for my assassination. (For the record I might add that the offending column was written two months earlier, everyone concerned discovering it only during the elections.)

All is fair in politics, however – more so than in love and war – and candidates hoping to serve the people or save the country will stoop to any level to score a point or win an advantage. Since when have dirty tricks been outlawed in elections? The relevant point is altogether different.

In the end none of the vilification really mattered. I still ended up getting 70,000 votes, just 1,300 or 1,400 behind the officially-sponsored Q League candidate. The ordinary voter didn`t fall for the Qadiani propaganda.

After India`s nuclear tests in May 1998, Chief Minister Shahbaz Sharif started meeting Punjab MPAs to get their views on Pakistan`s response.

I never tire of pointing out to friends that at the meeting of Rawalpindi division MPAs, out of the 22 MPAs attending, except for two or three, the rest spoke up against a tit-for-tat response.

Anyone might have thought that from a division providing nearly 70 per cent of the army`s soldiery a hawkish line would emerge. But none did.

A bit put out, for he clearly wasn`t expecting this, Shahbaz Sharif said with some asperity that he was more interested in the views of the people. What did the people want?

Having just campaigned in the Punjab local elections, I said that in all the meetings I had addressed I was asked about schools, roads, electricity and jobs, not once about India`s nuclear tests or any mortal danger facing Pakistan.

But who`s to stop our penchant for myth-making. That we had to test was a myth cooked up by the national security establishment with the ideology-of-Pakistan lobby cheering in the background.

We would have been much better off keeping our bombs in the nuclear closet. No one was asking us to throw them away or spike our nuclear programme, only that we shouldn`t test.

When he telephoned Nawaz Sharif (four times as we keep reminding ourselves in our misplaced pride) Clinton wasn`t asking for the moon, only for restraint and a small act of self-denial.

We would have gained the world`s plaudits and some money into the bargain. Perhaps more than we have got for sentry duty in America`s war on terrorism. But against the pressing demands of self-indulgence, for our tests amounted to little more than that, the calls for prudence meant nothing.

So we fired off our nuclear-tipped firecrackers in the conviction that by doing so we were securing our defences and making them impregnable. For myth-making on this grand scale there is no known cure, in science or medicine.

Exactly a year later Nawaz Sharif was in Washington desperately urging Clinton – the same Clinton who had cautioned restraint– to get Pakistan off the hook because of the army`s adventure in Kargil.

If the commanders entrusted with this adventure had their way, they would rewrite history and make everyone believe that but for Nawaz Sharif`s dash to Washington our northern troops were on the verge of a huge victory.

The truth, as every staff officer knows, is that our beleaguered troops, cut off from supplies, were at the end of their tether. The dash to Washington, undertaken in consultation with the army command (let there be no doubts on this score), gave us a piece of paper which allowed us to pretend that our troops were withdrawing from the Kargil heights with national dignity preserved.

Nawaz Sharif lost his way later when he tried to remove Musharraf as army chief while he was still in the air. That was like showing a red rag to Musharraf`s loyalists and, as anyone could have predicted, provoked them to action.

But on Kargil, even though Clinton was in no great rush to see him (remember that Sharif was forcing himself on Clinton on July 4, U.S. Independence Day) he deserved the high command`s gratitude.

Just as Bhutto for bringing home our prisoners-of-war without compromising national dignity deserved a slightly better fate than being strung up from the gallows.

So many debacles, a whole string of them: the `65 war, `71 and the country`s breakup, the disastrous course pursued in Afghanistan, the costs of jihad in Kashmir. And even now, the refusal to learn, the preoccupation with more myths.

Surely this matter calls for investigation because it points to something wrong not just with any particular institution – that would be too facile – but with the national mood, the national psyche.

The values of a governing elite, the spirit and temper of a race or nation, are products of history and culture. When we speak of the English or the French character, or the fighting prowess of Prussia (now mercifully shackled in German democracy), we are alluding to something created by centuries of history.

National attitudes are not changed overnight. It took a revolution, and a bloody one at that, to change Chinese attitudes.

What do we have to fall back upon? A confused and not too accurate memory of the days of Islamic glory and a thin veneer of English polish yet to touch our core.

The Western outlook on life lies not in aping Western manners or in speaking the English language but in imbibing the true spirit of Western learning. (1) Faith in reason (not dogma), (2) a feeling for proportion, and (3) the ability to see both sides of a question (which is the foundation of democracy). These are Greek virtues forming the bedrock of western civilisation.

Our governing classes lack these virtues. The colonial experience introduced these qualities to the subcontinent but we never fully imbibed them.

It`ll take a cultural revolution for this to change but whence such a storm comes it is hard to say because we seem quite happy to muddle along the way we are doing.

#1 GhalibZaman
Why don`t you get a room and go on a date with YLH - you seem to be in love with him.

YLH would like us to believe that Pakistan is not based on a narrow exclusivist ideology? It may be called the `Islamic` Republic of Pakistan, may bar non-Muslims from being elected to high office, but no, Pakistan is not excluvist!!!
``Some 5.5 Million Muslims were ethnically cleansed from East Punjab and areas neighboring Pakistan, and some 3.5 million Hindus from West Punjab and Sindh then packed up and left for India.``
Why the dissembling, YLH? Were the 5.5 million Muslims killed or did they migrate to Pakistan? The millions of Hindus in Pakistan at Partition - how many of them were killed?
It is a proven fact that the percentage of Hindus in Pakistan has dwindled post Partition, whereas the opposite is true for Muslims in India. Where have all the `missing` Hindus gone? Either they were killed or have converted to Islam. How many Muslims in India do you think have given up their religion?
Remember, India has a free and active press, which makes it difficult, if not impossible, to hide communal riots or massacres. Same is not true of Pakistan - the Hindus and other minorities could be killed, raped etc but would rarely make news.
At the time of Partition, India was clear that we would be a secular nation, while Pakistan was clear that it would be a nation for Muslims. So which country do you think would treat minorities better? Muslims did leave India for Pakistan, but they largely did so of their own free will for a `bright future` in Pakistan, whereas Hindus and Sikhs who were landed people or other prosperous businessmen in Pakistan had no incentive to leave it, but were forced to flee, giving up their property and life savings.
Finally, if Jinnah expected that he could ask for a nation on communal grounds and still expect that minorities could life safely and peacefully there, he was a fool. He may have been secular, but he must have been out of touch with reality not to forsee mass transfers and the communal riots. This is what happens when `intellectuals`, out of contact with and contemptous of ordinary people, are in charge of movements.
I am disappointed in YLH that he still feels he can `justify` the creation of Pakistan. I am sure Pakistanis will feel disappointed that he even feels the need to do so. But then, Pakistanis have a wierd sense of nationalism based on religion. They crave for what is not theirs (J&K), but do not miss what was once theirs rightfully (BD).

More gems from YLH ...
`` In Pakistan the incidents of violence against non-Muslims are few and far in between and usually the product of problems of a more global nature as the recent church bombings indicate. Generally the non-muslims in Pakistan are left to go about their business....``
Business of what? tilling fields, cleaning toilets?

But this might just be because the Sunni Muslim majority is more interested in killing of shia muslim minority or the ahmadiyya community than christians, Hindus or Sikhs. ``....
Yes now that Muslim majority has reduced christians, hindus and sikhs to insignificant numbers, it is now looking for new hunting grounds.

Best model is a Christian .. Because a muslim girl tried to participate in Miss International this year and was immediately subjected to governmental persecution. (I saw in Tokyo in same hotel at that time and saw poor girl going back in tears). Pious Pakistanis have no objection oogling at a christian model.

Wow, YLH, what a reasearh! and what great references!!
`` The first man to talk of Hindus and Muslims as separate nations was V.D. Savarkar who coined the word ‘Hindutva’ in a book with the same title in 1923. .... Eminent Bengali writer Bankimchandra Chattopadhyay also supported the notion``

``First man to talk`` talked in 1923. And Bankimchandra Chattopadhayay died in 1894.

Congratulations! I must send you a Ph.D for your research.

Yasser Latif Hamdanai:

A very good article, but I would say the following:

1. It would not convince Indians a bit. They think Pakistanis are brain-washed. However, a country lead by fundamentalist Hindu and extremist Government that has inspired killings of Muslims and Christians is still considered secular. The two high profile leaders of this Government had actually brought a mosque down. The ensuing riots resulted in the killings of thousand of more Muslims. Yet, Indians on this interactive board will thrash Pakistanis of being Jihadis and terrorists. In the long-run however, I believe that followers of Hinduism, which is a very peaceful religion and a very good Way of Life, will themselves send the fanatic Hindi Government into oblivion.

2. It boils down to media and diplomatic war. India has been very successful on these two fronts. In diplomatic area, Indian Government is procuring arms and related heavy equipment from all the countries whose voice matter in international politics so as to influence their opinion in their favour. In media and publicity, they have struck an alliance with pro-Israel lobby lead American media. CNN for example, is running a soft campaign against Muslims and pro-Israel and India. They have bought air-time on BBC and are achieving the same there. Of course, I am not referring to other media outlets which are decidedly against Muslims. Through exposure to media, Indians have been successfully projecting their view point and maligning Pakistan`s.

3. In order to let Pakistanis viewpoint, as the one summarised above in your article, known to the world, we will have to do a diplomatic and publicity campaign on both a strategic and tactical basis asap.

let the games begin :)

welcome back yasser....we missed you

Re: YLH

Yasser, it has been nearly 56 years since Pakistan was created. The reasons behind its creation have slipped away into the mists of history.
They should be left in the past, because we as a nation can not always look backwards - we have to face the future, which lies ahead and that is where we are headed, because we cannot go back to justify the past and we have to move forward. We have to move ahead, because our salvation as a nation lies in justifying our existence in the the future.

We, Pakistanis, cannot for ever justify the reasons for Pakistan`s creation, but those arguments pale in comparsion to the arguments on how to make Pakistan a better, tolerant, progressive looking state. Pakistan needs no justification. Good or bad, benign or evil, tolerant or intolerant, regressive or progressive, inclusive or exclusive, Pakistan exists. As long as it exists, it justifies its own reasons for its creation; it does not need any intellectual justifications, because it exists in reality.

Let the Indians disparage Pakistan. Let them deny the reasons behind its creation and let them belittle its accomplishments. Let the Indians deny the reality; a reality, which has existed since 1947. Everyone has a right to ignore the reality and deny it, but denial of a reality does not make the real any more unreal. Indians have a right to believe what they want and whether it is a wise choice or not, is not the concern of Pakistanis. We should we more worried about own code of conduct than what the Indians are thinking about us. If the Indians want to hate us; then let them hate us to their heart`s content. If hating Pakistan or denigerating its creation makes India internally more progressive, more tolerant, more diverse and more humane for all its citizens, then there is a valid reason to hate Pakistan and Pakistanis. On the other hand, if this anti-Pakistani rhetoric gains India nothing, then what has India gained by hating Pakistan?

Let India hate Pakistan. This hate is slowly but gradually destroying the very rationale, which the Indians used to hold up to make the distinction between themselves and Pakistanis. Pakistan`s hate of India, never justified, destroyed Pakistan. Same thing will happen to India, because hate and justifcation for hate destroys everything. Hate is irrational and hate cannot be reasoned.

I also know that, after reading this interact, I will be personally called all sort of names by Indians. It always happens; they kill the messanger, because of the message and it will happen again. Both India and Pakistan are heading for a holocaust with eyes wide open and only after they have ended up destroying each other, will they learn that hate does not solve anything.

The land of my birth is in flames; the land of my ancestors is starting to crackle with the fires of hate, which are fast spreading though it and those foolish souls igniting the fires, do not realize that their are burning their own homes. Pity.

Ciao

...here we go again...ylh moves his ass to the islamic republic of pakistan, but still can only write about india...pakis, give up this obsession with india...

Jhangvi group added to terrorist list

WASHINGTON, Jan 30: The Bush administration has designated the Pakistani Sunni Muslim group Lashkar-i-Jhangvi as a ``foreign terrorist organization,`` State Department spokesman Richard Boucher said on Thursday.

The group has been blamed for a string of attacks on Pakistan`s Shia community, and the leader of one faction, Asif Ramzi, was suspected of involvement in the killing of American journalist Daniel Pearl last year. Ramzi died in December in an explosion, possibly an accident.

Lashkar-i-Jhangvi is the 37th group on the United States list of ``foreign terrorist organizations.``

The designation makes it illegal to provide material support to the groups. Their assets in the United States are frozen and members can be denied entry to the country.

US Secretary of State Colin Powell signed the designation order on Jan 21 and Boucher said it became effective on Thursday.-Reuters


////YLH, you cannot see the commonality with the above group..the focus is always on to the out side. You cannot accept the truth that only change you can make is to yourself. How long will you pakistanis will plead for tolerence while attacking others every which way, even their inteligence by articles like this.

This is the same whining gentleman who had once written in a letter to ``The Friday Times`` in which he claimed that the title ``Mahatma`` was given by Gandhi to himself. So much for the veracity of his sources and ideas. No wonder he feels Pakis are victimized by Indians. Grow up Yasser!!!!! For someone with so much of a habit of complaining against the perceived superiority complex (or ``pseudo-intellectual tradition`` in his words) of Indians, what is hard to digest is that Mr. Hamdani tries to project himself as a campaigner genuinely interested in seeing his nation make peace with India (or rather vice-versa), while he remains silent on the same tradition in Pakistan that has been the sole unifying factor for Pakistanis. In fact, Pakistan`s interests would be much better served if arm-chair patriots like Mr. Hamdani who are ever ready to defend Pakistan`s cause at the drop of a hat with a heady concoction of half-truths and imagination, do something to halt Pakistan`s slide into the self-destruct mode (it it hasn`t already), instead of further sullying the already foul atmosphere existing between the two perpetually hostile neighbours.

YLH,

Instead of writing this inane piece askinf for tolerence from indians, If you had written an article on Abdus salam, his birth day on 29 th january, you would have proven beyond a shadow of doubt that you are a man of tolerence.

This artcle only proves that you are like most of the other pakistanis on chowk, ``with beard in the tummy``.

It is sad that you can write about tolerence, mind filled with events and quotes more than a fifty years ago, as you travel to the golden age of the book, another 1400 years back.

At least you are a smart man, you could find the INS torture coming and escaped before that. Good luck to you and your article from pakistan only reinforcess my convictions about the future shape of pakistan.

This writer talking about how happy the minorities are in Pakistan is only to prove to the world that muslims in Pakistan are indeed different from others and not fanatical.
Face-saving excercise it is.

When the whole world has resorted to `muslim-bashing`..then Pakistan can`t afford to go on treating its minorities(whatever few left after conversions) badly.

Welcome back on chowk, YLH. You will no doubt attract the usual crowd - the jays and suchlikes - saying their usual things to this article: scientific research shows that any article having anything to do with Pak-India politics is a guaranteed box office hit on chowk. Perhaps you should start charging Rs. 50 for every post written on this board, and you will soon be a rich man, and you could hire your own press agent.

Dear Hamdai

I loved your wrting and thoughts. There is still hope. There are still people around who are not prisoners of their self-imposed cages and of past.

You provided logic & mathematics. My argument is simpler. If sworn and historical enemies like Germany, France and UK can be a part of EU and live in peace for the greater happiness and properity of their people, why can`t we?

like roaches, they come crawling from all directions. never in my visits to the land of my forefathers have i tasted anything like the venom secreted by these vermin on chowk. our faith however counsels tolerance. ylh, you can do your bit by adding the following disclosure to your columns:

warning: may cause diarrhea, heartburn and high-blood pressure to members of brown shirt brigade circa 2003

heh, heh, what a blast ! Welcome back, ylh !

I see you are still trying to dissociate Jinnah from his greatest follower Modi of Gujarat. I am sorry, facts are facts, from Jinnah`s Direct Action Day to Modi`s Gaurav Yatra there is a straight and direct line. They are the one and same. It is the use of naked and unbridled violence against simple folk to achieve power. Majority vs Minority, what kind of nonsensical sophistry is that? Minorities have the right to murder their neighbors but majorities dont? Huh?

As for pakistani minorities, where are they? Yes, I know there are a few christians and even fewer hindus in remote place where they keep their mouths shut. I publically challenge you to produce a single pakistani hindu interactor on Chowk. Why is that important? Because this is the forum where the educated class is visible and asserts their rights.

I am pleased to see that there have been many, many indian muslim interactors. SO FIND ME A SINGLE PAKISTANI HINDU INTERACTOR ON CHOWK. Lets see if you can walk the walk !!

Dont take just my word for the Modi == Jinnah equation. Here is Ramchandra Gandhi`s analysis (Mahatmas descendant and well known writer and liberal thinker).

---- from the indian express ---------------------------------------------

Gandhi’s prophecy came true



Ramchandra Gandhi




Gandhi`s earliest dialogues, from the time he was student in London, were with Christian friends and missionaries who saw in his moral steadfastness and concern for the sufferings of others a ripeness for conversion to Christianity. These dialogues continued throughout Gandhi’s life, his argument against conversion to Christianity being that Christ’s life only inspired him to be a better Hindu, and not to cease to be one. The Christian missionary conviction was that there was no memorable example, outside Christianity, of a saint or sage taking a stand against his co-religionists and laying down his life for humanity. Surprise awaited that dogma.

Gandhi opposed many of his co-religionists in his refusal to endorse vengeful retaliation against Muslims in India to counter Jinnah’s misguided secessionist ambition, subtly fuelled by the British Raj’s unwillingness to incarcerate him for inciting communal killings in Calcutta on August 16, 1946; a failure of governance which made partition unavoidable.



And it was on a Friday, the time late afternoon (as with Christ), when Gandhi was killed by a fellow Hindu who believed that Gandhi’s impartial love of all of India’s religious traditions was likely to imperil Hindu orthodoxy’s ambition to establish a Hindu Rashtra in India. And, like Jesus, Gandhi died with God’s name on his lips. This parallelism with Christ’s martyrdom is Gandhi’s unspoken, yet decisive, argument against religious conversion. Communion with all faiths can enable us to embody in our lives the highest ideals of all religions, without abandoning our own traditions.

Muslim majoritarianism, which broke up India and led to the establishment of an exclusivist Islamic state in Pakistan, and which today terrorises Jammu and Kashmir, is the ironical mentor of Hindu majoritarianism in India. Indeed, the recent Gujarat carnage, with the state and central governments looking the other way, is a shameful repetition and reminder of the folly of Jinnah’s experiment with untruth in August 1946; and of the memory beclouding anger (to use a phrase from the Gita) which led Godse to kill Gandhi, who was on his way to his evening inter-faith public prayer meeting.

Gandhi had declared that India would be partitioned over his dead body, yet he did not start anything like a civil disobedience movement or a fast unto death to prevent it. Godse concluded that Gandhi was a fraud and a facilitator of partition and killed him. It is stated in the Hindu shastras that the prophecy of a steadfast brahmachari devotee of God or Truth, such as Gandhi was, can never fail to be fulfilled. But did not Gandhi’s prophecy that partition would occur over his dead body prove false? Not really.

Any civil disobedience movement initiated by Gandhi in 1946 or 1947 to stop partition would have unleashed communal violence of unimaginable proportion all over India, more horrific and enduring than what did occur, and unprecedented for having been instigated by a saint. In the prevailing chaos, India would have been denied independence. Nehru and Patel would have had to beg Mountbatten to rule the country with the aid of the armed forces under his command. The last Viceroy of India would have gladly done so, but on condition that India be broken up into two hundred sovereign states for efficient administration. The great Indian dream, of imagining an ancient civilisation, spiritual and secular, in the form of a modern nation at peace with itself and the world, would have died.

The British Empire would have been quite happy to see this happen, deeply wounded as its pride was by the ‘Quit India’ satyagraha led by Gandhi in 1942, and the formation, in 1943, of the Indian National Army by Subhas Chandra Bose, which together made India’s march to freedom unstoppable. Gandhi did not oblige the British Empire and protected Indian independence and saved the honour of India’s spiritual traditions. And, had he been allowed to live, Gandhi would surely have confronted India and Pakistan with the necessity of atonement for the sacrifice of two million innocent lives lives on the altar of partition. The fixity of division may then have had some chance of becoming transformed into the flexibility of interdependence.

By murdering Gandhi, Godse blocked this possibility, thus himself making Gandhi’s prophecy about partition occurring over his dead body come true! Satyameva Jayate.

Had Gandhi some breath left before he died, what might he have said to his assassin? Perhaps this: ‘Son (he loved all as his own family), you remind me of my Harilal (Gandhi’s eldest son who had rebelled against his father, thinking that he helped other people’s children more than his own). Harilal has not wanted to kill me, but like him, you also fail to understand that we must care for other people’s children as much as our own, even more, if their need is greater. The road to swaraj is long, son, widen your circle of love, be brave!’ Sarvam khalu idam Brahma.

Gandhi is one of the two million innocent human beings led like lambs to the slaughter by the Partition. Along with them also died the idea of a subcontinental India, that vastness of self-identity, suggestive of God’s generosity, which had been available to all Indians down the ages, regardless of cultural, religious and political differences and divisions.

How can India and Pakistan and Bangladesh atone for this crime against humanity, history and divinity? Only through a symbolic resurrection of subcontinental Indian reality, within existing sovereignties, in a region like J&K, which has mercifully kept ‘unfinished’ the vivisectional agenda of Partition. Let a subcontinental cultural parliament be inaugurated in the area as a whole, without upsetting existing legislatures, to which members would be elected from all of India, Pakistan and Bangladesh, and not only from J&K: men and women of goodwill who would not rule but serve life and nature and all sacred traditions in the region, and not majoritarian or minoritarian or anthropocentric vested interests.

It is my conviction that the mass of subcontinental humanity would thunderously support such a gesture of atonement for the holocaust of Partition. Two million souls now hovering over their former homelands, waiting to be remembered, would find final release and bless, not curse, us in this morally forgetful new century.

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like roaches, they come crawling from all directions. never in my visits to the land of my forefathers have i tasted anything like the venom secreted by these vermins on chowk. our faith however counsels tolerance. ylh, you can do your bit by adding following disclosure to your columns:

warning: may cause diarrhea, heartburn and high-blood pressure to members of brown shirt brigade circa 2003

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Alephnull,

Sri Prikasa, India`s first High Commissioner to Pakistan, spelt his name Sri Prikasa...

Ofcourse you have to read some more to know that don`t you :)

-YLH

Layman,

1) Read the whole thing before you let your knee jerk responses take over.

2) Ethnic Cleansing is simply driving an ethnic group out of a place.... if you thought ethnic cleansing meant `killing` then you need to learn more...
though in another version even the Fridaytimes wallah substituted killing for ethnic cleansing...


Manjit...

I think you are making the same mistake...

Ethnic cleansing DOES not mean KILLING (though Even fridaytimes miscontrued my article as such)..

The figures are very clear... 5.5 Million Muslims moved from East Punjab and neighboring areas of India to Pakistan at the time of Partition... you can check the reports of the time, as well the The Times London of those dates for the facts....

The figures are also quoted in K B Sayeed`s `Formative Phase`.




Friend,

As always you have shown us that `reading comprehension` or command of English language is just not your cup of tea.

1) The research was not mine but one of your greatest countrymen: Khushwant Singh

2) It said: ``The first man to talk of Hindus and Muslims as separate nations was V.D. Savarkar who coined the word ‘Hindutva’ in a book with the same title in 1923.``

Source is given above...


Ladies and Gentlemen

I thought I had proved my point but no... it has been amply and more conclusively proved by the loads of garbage that has been spewed by people like P-Mishra, Harimau, Jay, arjunm and others on this board.

Does it really matter if the sources I quoted were Indian?
Oh no... because after all to all of them this is just Pakistani Propaganda...
I am sure P-Mishra had some sort of satisfaction from his sadly perverse comparison between Jinnah and Modi... I am sure such a comparison has only one parallel in history... Some Gandhi-hater comparing Gandhi to Hitler... but then that is another story...


THE NEW DIVINE REVELATION:

Did you know that Khushwant Singh is a Pakistani agent.... thankyou P-Mishra and company for enlightening us ... you are definitely our Gabriels...

MSouza...

Please show me where I say that Minorities are happy in Pakistan... I did say that they are not anymore worse off than they are in India... but that doesn`t suggest that they are happy in Pakistan.



Feroze K,

Thanks for that reply... I think your response sums it up ...

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OK Yasser, my tu-pence worth and my question for you as well as the other Indians/Pakistanis on this board who would try to please give me a rational answer . . . why does any Indo-Pak discussion have to evolve into a Hindu-Muslim scenario?

````Pakistan and India were created through a mutually agreed partition and were to part as friends and brothers. That has not happened but its time we buried the hatchet and came to terms with each other. ````

Agreed. Where does religion come into this?

The only solace I find lately is from some ground-level discussions in a semi-rural train earlier this morning . . . ``when they get beaten by the Americans then they will realise who their friends were all these decades``.

Oh well . . .

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Dear Yasser,

Welcome back, buddy boy. You were missed. Enjoyed the read but personally speaking, apart from trying to understand the history of the process, I couldn`t give a flying falooda about what anyone thinks about Pakistan. It exists and that`s the bottom line. I know what you`re thinking and before you say anything...I agree with you

On another note, are you studying law? I only ask this because I just wanted to ask how close British and Pakistani law is.

Thanks,
Umer M.

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Dear YLH thnx for writing a piece for those fellow chowk members who always ready to bark on Pakistan. This barking dog seldom bite is becoming the trade mark of BJP Govt and many followers following that trend....... last week it was Defence Minister,George, and if i am not wrong the next week is for Mr Advani to give an empty threat to Pakistan,and time to time Mr Modi also joins the ranks. and where is Mr Vajpayee ? is he still PM? Surprisingly BJP`s head made some good comments about Pakistan and India relations which give us a hope. Otherwise whole lot of politicians try their best to create all sorts of obsession against very small country in comparison.

Ahmadzai:

.``In order to let Pakistanis viewpoint, as the one summarised above in your article, known to the world, we will have to do a diplomatic and publicity campaign on both a strategic and tactical basis asap. ``

As long as you chaps continue to believe that the only thing wrong with the perception of Pakistan is ineffective Public Realtions, then we really have nothing to worry about. The world is not as foolish as you would like to believe.

All that you said about India is true. I will go further and say this...the average Pakistani outside of NWFP may well be as secular in outlook as the average Indian. Yet, why are we considered secular in comparison to you? Because you name your country the Islamic Republic of Pakistan and we do not call it the Hindutva Ganatantra of Bharat. It is not the people but the ideology of the state that matters. YLH may well be right about Jinnah`s personal outlook, but if Pakistan was meant to be secular, that secularism died the day the Objectives Resolution was passed under Liaquat Ali Khan.

With regards to deiffering perceptions of India and Pakistan, that situation exists only because the Pakistani government willingly surrendered it`s sovereignity, not to the Americans as you may like to believe, but to non-state actors. In India, foerign policy is based on the views of a strategic elite whereas governments fall on the price of onions. In Pakistan, foreign policy is rocked by compulsions of the street and jehadic imperatives.

This article is irrelevant, not because it is lacking in fact, but because it completely ignores the ground reality of today. The influence of non-state actors, if not in day to day decision making, is at least a major factor in Indo-Pak relations.

Ref UmerMurtaza #25

[On another note, are you studying law? I only ask this because I just wanted to ask how close British and Pakistani law is.]

Let me give you a clue.

In Britain women are not jailed as adultresses when they file a complaint of rape.

Let me give you another clue.

In Britain, the blasphemy law has not been used in over 100 years.

YLH2 #33
Before you start teaching English comprehension, tell us how reliable is this great reference. I have already shown you discrepancy in that reference.
How Bakim Chaterjee could support the notion coined in 1923 by Savarkar?
Before applying your mind, you just ran and quoted Kushwant Singh. Can this error indicate that Kushwant Singh is not infallible? And perhpas your research is incomplete.

For your entertainment, I will quote you something interesting from Wolpert in a short while. Stay tuned.

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``Flying falooda``. That is a good one. Thank you Umer.

The best falooda in Bombay was made and sold by this chotte mian guy in the space between the mosque and National Restaurant outside Bandra (West) Station, to the right as you exit. Symbolic, the co-existence of saag-mutton & bright coloured add-ons to the falooda.

Last week I went there to have falooda, and found about ten ``ye olde genuine bade miya falooda`` carts.

That must have been a fly by wire flying falooda?

+++

Yasser, would you consider a career in humour?

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Ref veeresh #27

[The only solace I find lately is from some ground-level discussions in a semi-rural train earlier this morning . . . ``when they get beaten by the Americans then they will realise who their friends were all these decades``.]

Let me give them a clue.

It is not the Chinese.

This is a guy who defends pakistani treatment of minorities but who gets cold feet when asked to present a SINGLE HINDU Pakistani interactor on Chowk. Then suddenly every interlocutor belongs to the RSS! Talk about getting caught with your pants down.

If Pakistani minorities are doing so well, why can`t you produce a single hindu from your well-educated and influential circle? You don`t even have a friend`s friend`s friend who is a hindu? Huh? Where are all these influential hindus who are doing so well?

And you have the cheek to lecture us on minority rights in Pakistan? A few hundred thousand cowering hindus in Sindh are all that is left from the historic and ancient hindu/buddhist civilization of N-W India, and without shame or reflection, you dare to compliment yourself on the treatment of minorities in Pakistan.

What is next? Joerg Haider explaining that the 500 jews left in Vienna reflect Austrian broad mindedness? That is exactly the level and quality of your article and your self-serving sophsitry.

Ref YLH2 #34

[Sri Prikasa, India`s first High Commissioner to Pakistan, spelt his name Sri Prikasa... ]

Since Mr Sri Prakasa was from a state neighboring my own, may I point out that that is how his name is spelt?

All of you Northies: just remember that there is a sound in between `sh` and `s` in Sanskrit. You guys choose to spell it `sh` and the South Indians prefer to spell it `s`.

YLH complains about other`s comrehension and answers to Manjit:

``Manjit...

I think you are making the same mistake...

Ethnic cleansing DOES not mean KILLING (though Even fridaytimes miscontrued my article as such)..

The figures are very clear... 5.5 Million Muslims moved from East Punjab and neighboring areas of India to Pakistan at the time of Partition... you can check the reports of the time, as well the The Times London of those dates for the facts....
``

I don`t think Manjit was talking about authencity of numbers but the some catchy phrases you attached to them. Let me read it back to you:

````Some 5.5 Million Muslims were ethnically cleansed from East Punjab and areas neighboring Pakistan, and some 3.5 million Hindus from West Punjab and Sindh then packed up and left for India.``

That is the level of tolerance and neutrality you have on the issue. Muslims were brutally and forceably ethnically cleansed but Hindu then all of a sudden packed their stuff and moved quietly. Bravo!

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Harimau #38,

Ha ha. Gotta give it to you. I had that coming but you were being very predictable. I knew some Indian fella was going to do that.

But you know what I mean. And PS. Any opinions on the fact why Christianity should be the only religion in UK where one can do you in for blasphemy (no referance to Pakistan please)? I believe Hindus, Sikhs, Jains etc etc are classified as races as opposed to religion whereas Islam and Judaism (I think - not sure) are classified as religions.

Veeresh, Please No. Now`s really not the time to make me jealous.

Umer M

Dullah Bhatti:

LOL!!! I didn`t notice that the first time around. I will ask my father how many coolies they hired when they were packing up and leaving with the clothes on their backs.

Umer:

Indian Law is based on Common Law as well as legislative action. Common Law is derived from British times and there do exist soome similarities in India and England. I assume it is the same for Pakistan.

Yasser ne farmaya:
{And yet the exchange of populations happened and then came the terrible communal holocaust on both sides. Some 5.5 Million Muslims were ethnically cleansed from East Punjab and areas neighboring Pakistan, and some 3.5 million Hindus from West Punjab and Sindh then packed up and left for India....}

I agree with both dullabhatti, and Manjit on this issue. Regardless of whether ethnic cleansing means killing or not (and believe me, beta, in this case it most certainly did) Yasser, you need to check yourself, not books or figures on what you`ve said here. Have you read Urvashi Butalia`s `The Other Side of Silence`? Read it...it may increase your knowledge. Anyway, what you seem to be implying here (intended or not) is that Muslims were forced out of East Punjab, whereas Hindus just packed up and left. Could there be any greater fiction than this? And please let us not forget our Sikh brothers and sisters. What happened in Punjab in terms of `ethnic cleansing` includes killing on both sides and forcible removals of Muslims, Hindus and Sikhs (which you fail to mention) who did NOT just pack up their bags and leave...so many of them didn`t even get to do that. Your phrases reek of bias, intentional or not, and they insult the memories of those who know better. Forget about checking figures Yasser, just check yourself!
ana

Good stuff, Yasser!
Liked this very much:
``What makes the imagined geographical unity of South Asian subcontinent more special than the other two? What makes it the right size anyway? By no means are the doors of History closed to further redrawing of borders whether here in South Asia or in the world. All effective cases for political autonomy should be entertained. The unity of the world lies in constant decentralization of authority, till effective governance and equality is finally achieved, and true meaning of liberty is realized.``

Well said. I have never understood what makes SOME people so terrified of the idea of multi-nation theory and political autonomy. Could it be the awareness of innate insecurity in their nationalistic premise? I wonder if the Jay`s and Sadna`s are half as vehemently opposed to the Quebecois` call for partition as they are of any suggestion of a subcontinental TNT. I suppose it just isn`t as fashionable to define nationhood in terms of basic beliefs and lifestyles as to demarcate boundaries by language!

Good to see you back! You know my email addy. WRITE!

Kashmir`s real rulers are its people. If the people of Kashmir are in favor of opting for Pakistan, no power on earth can stop them from doing so. They should feel free to decide for themselves.

As far as I am concerned.

Nicely argued, though grammatically wanting. Welcome back.

EU is the right way to go for South Asia. All regions that want independence should be allowed to have it, specially since that was the battle cry of Indians and Pakistanis themselves, under British. Once they have political independence, they should come together under an economic union, with free trade, no visas, free movement of people and money.

I will take a guess that 50% of Pakistanis and probably 90% of Indians have never even visited Kashmir. Less than 10% of Pakistan`s population is Kashmiri and maybe around 1% of Indian population is Kashmiri. Yet they both seem so interested in it. It is all part of a misplaced ego and the desire of one man to rule another.

Let the Kashmiris decide their fate, and live on their own. Let anyone else do that, as well. After all, the biggest desire of an Indian or Pakistani is to migrate to the USA, not to Kashmir.

I don`t think there can be any peace in South Asia, until all political entities are allowed their breathing space. One of the biggest mistakes of the British was the unification of the whole area of South Asia, against the wishes of some of its local population. All South Asian citizens are now paying the price for it.

If there is one historical consistency in South Asia, it is that any group that has wanted freedom has eventually gotten it - be they Indians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis. Applying the same rule to other areas like Kashmir, what is the point of killing so many of them (and then using their deaths as a propoganda tool), why not just ask them what they want?

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re #33, Yasser:
``Please show me where I say that Minorities are happy in Pakistan... but that doesn`t suggest that they are happy in Pakistan``
Gee, no one told poor ol me I was miserable all this time! Or any of my many Christian friends who`ve chosen to live in the land of the not-so-pure. How miserable is THAT!!
But seriously, I think what Yasser tries to drive home is that while institutional discrimination exists against religious minorities in Pakistan, the reality `on the ground` is different. While the ranks of religious bigots have been swelling at an alarming rate over the past two decades, IMO such folks still constitute a small minority of Pakistani Muslims.
And for the bloke who suggested that Pak Religious Minorities are relegated to the bottom of the socio-economic ladder, well, that`s quite untrue. Yes, the bulk of Pakistani Christians belong to the `sweeper class`. However, such has been their lot in life since before they converted to Christianity. Neither can it be claimed that Christians and Hindus are exclusive to such bottom-rung occupations.
And why are Pakistani Hindus not visible on the chowk? Well, statistics might provide a clue... Hindus form 2% of the population. Those with money are either ofthe wadera class in Sindh (read `paDha likhay jahil` --like most of this class) or urban businessfolks, the type you`d least expect to see on a forum such as this.
And just FYI, there WAS a Pakistani Hinud (patriotic one at that!) active here up to a year or so ago.

Hamdani my lad -- if u want to move -- ``Towards Greater Tolerance`` -- MINIMIZE the Rancorous Statistics -- 5 million vs 3 million -- that is again argumentative and confrontational --

accept that all three -- the Muslims the Hindus and the Sikhs were equally NAKED in the Hammam of subcontinental BARBARISM --

the ONLY civilized communities being the Christians and the Parsis

no use arguing about the `degree of barbarism` --

subcontinental passive/aggressive are -- even today -- fully capable of burst of barbaric behavior -- in between bowing hugging and touching feet --

Tolerance begins NOT with `accounting` but `discounting` -- what happened -- in the moment of `temporary` insanity -- happened --

tell me what -- u`ve got for the bleak FUTURE -- of Indo-Pak friendship and reconciliation -- any fresh ideas -- or the same old RUT...

Hamdani my lad -- if u want to move -- ``Towards Greater Tolerance`` -- MINIMIZE the Rancorous Statistics -- 5 million vs 3 million -- that is again argumentative and confrontational --

accept that all three -- the Muslims the Hindus and the Sikhs were equally NAKED in the Hammam of subcontinental BARBARISM --

the ONLY civilized communities being the Christians and the Parsis

no use arguing about the `degree of barbarism` --

subcontinental passive/aggressive are -- even today -- fully capable of burst of barbaric behavior -- in between bowing hugging and touching feet --

Tolerance begins NOT with `accounting` but `discounting` -- what happened -- in the moment of `temporary` insanity -- happened --

tell me what -- u`ve got for the bleak FUTURE -- of Indo-Pak friendship and reconciliation -- any fresh ideas -- or the same old RUT...

As long as Hindus keep on dreaming about a greater monkey kingdom spanning from Afghanistan to Nepal there will not be peace and prosperity in the region. Not only they themselves keep on dying with hunger, disease, aids and syphilis but they will keep on making the lives of millions other misearble as well. Mahabharat was only possible twice in history - once under Ashok and second time under Aurangzeb Alamgir (may God bless his soul) - and both times Hindus were put in the right place. Hindus themselves could never do it - even Krishan couldn`t go beyond Gordaspur.

well said Urstruly bhai :-)

Dasht tau dasht hai daryaa bhi na choRay hum nay
Bahr e zulmat mein dhowRaa diye ghoRay hum nay...

Iqbal (I hope I have quoted him correctly)

:-)

Peace is the issue in the Subcontinent. The question is HOW? While the BJP fascists are in power--no chance. WE have to wait for Congress to win again I reckon...

Or wait till Imam Mahdi alayhisalam blesses the world with their presence...

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nasah # 58, # 59

That is the spirit we will need to promote tolerance.

Urstruly sahib
``Monkeys`` have now got access to Iranian military bases in case of outbreak of tensions. Read and simmer....
http://www.janes.com/security/international_security/news/fr/fr030129_1_n.shtml

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...ouch, this is going to rattle some jehadi beards in pakistan BIG time...hahahahah...eat your heart out hamdani...


from Jane`s (not some Indian publication):

{Strategic shift in south Asia

In an effort to garner international support for their side of the endless Kashmir dispute, both India and Pakistan have been doing their best to attract the friendship of the United States since the beginning of the `war on terrorism`. The US is seen as the only third party that could intervene to solve the Kashmir dispute. While Pakistan holds US President George W Bush`s immediate attention, India seemed to be winning the long-term battle, at least until now. We reveal what is going on.

India surprised both Pakistan and the US in the signing of its recent accord with Iran. This strategic agreement, which will allow India the use of Iranian military bases in the event of any outbreak of tensions with Pakistan, affects the future of the sub-continent.

The revelation by India of the pact not only heightens tension in south Asia, but also leaves the US with a dilemma: how to react to India`s alliance with Iran, which remains part of the US `axis of evil`.

The pact was signed a week before the visit of Iran`s President, Mahammad Khatami, to India to join the celebrations for India`s national day on 26 January. Signed in Tehran by the Indian naval chief and the Iranian minister of defence, the pact marks a complete turnaround by Iran, which used to be a close ally of Pakistan. How the pact fits in with India`s defence relationship with Israel is unclear, but the threat this can pose to Pakistan is all too real.

Iran benefits by gaining access to Indian military expertise, which will include upgrades of its fighters, as well as new tanks and artillery. India will also help train the Iranian army and navy. India will be allowed to deploy troops and equipment in Iran during a crisis with Pakistan and gain access to Iranian ports.

It looks very much like an encirclement of Pakistan by India. The pressure on Pakistan`s defences would be almost overwhelming. We expect Pakistan to respond. Much will depend on the reaction of the Bush administration. }

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http://www.jang-group.com/thenews/index.html

28 Pakistanis caught by Italian police. Charged with linkage to Al-Queida.

The thing that caught my eye was as usual the following sad commentary:

That all were innocent as per Pakistan foreign ministry and, get this,
they mention they were trapped because the lodging they stayed belonged to the (italian) mafia. Comme on...

By the way, the police found explosives, fuse laced with chemicals, newspaper clippings from Pakistani newspapers, islamic ``jehadi`` teachings, etc besides, maps of naples with locations of bases, harbors, embassy location, etc.....

Why would the mafia cause physical harm to their own country? what will they do with islamic literature?

It is amazing to see the official pakistani institution such as the pakistani foreign office supporting all these people. unless, one assumes, that
the foreign office knew about it, which is even more scarry because it would mean al-queida infiltration via mma influence in foreign ministry and isi encouragement.

it won`t be surprising for bush to include pakistan in the axis of evil pretty soon because a lot of these intended targets were us interests.

PM #55

{Liked this very much:

``What makes the imagined geographical unity of South Asian subcontinent more special than the other two? What makes it the right size anyway? By no means are the doors of History closed to further redrawing of borders whether here in South Asia or in the world. All effective cases for political autonomy should be entertained. The unity of the world lies in constant decentralization of authority, till effective governance and equality is finally achieved, and true meaning of liberty is realized.``

Well said. I have never understood what makes SOME people so terrified of the idea of multi-nation theory and political autonomy. Could it be the awareness of innate insecurity in their nationalistic premise? ... I suppose it just isn`t as fashionable to define nationhood in terms of basic beliefs and lifestyles as to demarcate boundaries by language!}

Alright, what makes *any* territorial unit the right size to be a nation? Why not continue the process of subdivision indefinitely? Where does it stop? ``My village for its villagers?`` Or is it to be ``Every man/woman is an island?`` Provide a method, an unambiguously defined procedure, to determine what the `correct` political map of the world should be - and prove its correctness.

The same question can be asked about `basic beliefs and lifestyle`. In reality these are not monolithic and indivisible, no matter how insistently SOME systems of belief are presented as such by their proponents. Each belief system - religion - has perhaps as many shades as it has adherents. Even if you restrict yourself to named schools or sects, the number is very large and constantly increasing. Nor is there a sharp demarcation between supposedly different belief systems; particularly in the Indian subcontinent.

So in particular one might ask why the claims of subcontinental Islam to its own nation should supersede the rights of Shias, Sunnis, etc to form their own nation, and so on; Shias in turn could be further subdivided, etc. etc. ad infinitum.

So exactly where does one draw sharp new boundaries, territorial or societal, and why?

Further, why is an individual`s belief system (real or nominal) to take precedence over all other personal attributes in determining civic identity or `nationality`? What if different people assign different weights to different attributes - for instance, one wants to associate with others who share the same language, another with coreligionists (as he sees them), a third with those who share both language and religion, and a fourth simply wants to be left alone in peace and would prefer current political boundaries to remain? What about those who`d rather be small fish in an ocean than big fish in a small pond? What about nonconformists who don`t want to be confined to a small country whose discourse is dominated by linguistic chauvinists who speak the same language as they do, or by religious fanatics whose religion they nominally share? Whose desires *ought* to take precedence, and why?

The case when the belief system selected as the primary basis of nationhood is a religion (and thus basically a matter of faith, not susceptible to reason) is especially problematic. It is difficult to prevent a nation defined in such terms from regressing into outright theocracy. It also preempts the personal choices of all future citizens in the matter of religious faith (or indifference to religion, or outright rejection of religion), a domain which is basically private and should be purely a matter of personal choice. Why is this considered acceptable?

Do votaries of the `true meaning of liberty` have any sensible and practical answers?

Ref PM #55

[I wonder if the Jay`s and Sadna`s are half as vehemently opposed to the Quebecois` call for partition as they are of any suggestion of a subcontinental TNT. I suppose it just isn`t as fashionable to define nationhood in terms of basic beliefs and lifestyles as to demarcate boundaries by language!]

So when are you guys going to grant independence to Sindhu Desh? That would be boundary demarcation by language.

I remember you guys strafing the camel caravans from helicopters in Balochistan. So it wasn`t very fashionable to define nationhood in terms of basic beliefs and lifestyles in Pakistan either.

If East Bengal hadn`t been 1500 miles away, we wouldn`t have you or Romair singing the glories of self-determination.

Ref UmerMurtaza #49

[Harimau #38,

Ha ha. Gotta give it to you. I had that coming but you were being very predictable. I knew some Indian fella was going to do that. ]

Well, you must admit those clues at least got you thinking.

The fact is that Indian Criminal Procedure Code is modelled on British law. The Pakistan CrPC is the Indian CrPC with amendments as dictated by Islamists.

British law recognizes the supremacy of the Parliament and as there is no written Constitution, all laws passed by the Parliament are constitutional. Indian law provides for the review of acts of Parliament unless the parliament chooses to exclude a specific act from review by the Judiciary. Thus it is possible to challenge the tyranny of the majority (the illusory ``threat`` used by Jinnah to demand Pakistan) in the courts and receive justice. In fact, the Indian Supreme Court has ruled that the government has no power to overrule fundamental rights of citizens and so it is not possible, for instance, to declare Islam illegal.

Re the blasphemy situation in the UK: Britain evolved from being a country with no difference between the State and the Church (remember that the Queen is the head of the Anglican Church and one of her titles is `Defender of the Faith`) to one where the Church has been practically removed from having any influence on the affairs of the State. Pakistan has progressed in the opposite direction and that would explain the introduction of the blasphemy law in Pakistan.

this revelation about the Iranian deal with India is bad news for Pakistan...then again it doesn`t really suprise me that much. After all, the Rafidis have always stabbed Muslims in the back when it comes to the crunch....

Ref PM #55

[Good stuff, Yasser!
Liked this very much:
``What makes the imagined geographical unity of South Asian subcontinent more special than the other two? What makes it the right size anyway? By no means are the doors of History closed to further redrawing of borders whether here in South Asia or in the world. All effective cases for political autonomy should be entertained. The unity of the world lies in constant decentralization of authority, till effective governance and equality is finally achieved, and true meaning of liberty is realized.``]

I finally understand what is causing Pakistanis periodic bouts of acute verbal diarrhea when it comes to the political unity of India.

It is that while Muslims are waxing rhapsodic about The Greater Ummah, the only real unity so far has been amongst Hindus scattered across the Indian subcontinent. This is why these folks are imagining separatist movements in Tamil Nadu, Hyderabad, Goa, etc.

What these folks fail to understand is (and this includes Sohail Rabbani who long ago published an article about the desirability of the break-up of India into several countries and that normally sober -- despite the Macallen -- gentleman hamidm) that Hinduism DOES knit the people of India together. Otherwise, you wouldn`t see the poorest UP bhaiyya making a trip all the way to Rameswaram (nope, he is NOT visiting the birthplace of the current President of India in an acute attack of patriotic fervour) nor would you see Maharashtrians, Kannadigas, Telugus and Tamils going all the way to Benares, Gaya and Prayag to perform shraddha ceremonies for their ancestors. You wouldn`t see pilgrims from across the country in places as far removed as Vaishnodevi in Kashmir, Nasik in Maharashtra, Puri in Orissa, Guruvayoor in Kerala, Tirupathi in Andhra, Udipi in Karnataka or Sri Rangam in Tamil Nadu besides places like Mathura, Dwaraka, Hardwar, Ujjain, Kalighat and a thousand other villages, towns and cities. Nor would the world have witnessed the greatest gathering of pilgrims in its history at one place during the last Kumbha Mela. This is the land across which Rama walked, where Krishna played and where the Hindu legends were acted out. That resonates among all Hindus despite the veneer of modernity that they have acquired through Western education. That is why you see vehement opposition from all Indians to the idea of break-up of the country. They LIKE the idea of being able to go where they want to in India without having to have a passport and a visa. So please keep that advice to yourself about breaking up India and then over a period of centuries evolving into a borderless EEC type community. Here is a clue for the clueless Pakistanis: India is ALREADY the multi-ethnic, multi-lingual federal state that the EEC has been trying hard to become.

We Indians do not covet Nepal, Sri Lanka, Bali, Guyana, Trinidad, Jamaica , Seychelles, Fiji, parts of Manchester/Bradford/London/Toronto/Silicon Valley/New Jersey or any other place where Indians have settled in large numbers. That ought to explain to The Clueless why Nepal or Sri Lanka remains an independent country.

If this repeated suggestion for a break-up of India followed by an EEC type of arrangement including Pakistan and Bangladesh is an expression of a subliminal longing for a united India, nothing actually prevents you guys from petitioning the Indian Parliament for admission to the Republic of India. Since you already have a champion of such an idea in Lal Kishan Advani, it should be smooth sailing through the Parliament. You would then have a Karachi-born native as the Prime Minister of India and who knows, Pervez Musharraf might even become the Chief of the Army Staff, though he will find that his penchant for dictating to elected political leaders would get him cashiered at a moment`s notice.

[What makes the imagined geographical unity of South Asian subcontinent more special than the other two?]

That dear boy Yasser Latif Hamdani ought to look at an atlas carefully. Maybe he even needs to go back to Rutgers for a course in geology. The GEOGRAPHICAL unity is a fact of geology that cannot be wished away. He probably means the POLITICAL unity.

PS. Let me anticipate your next question. Is India then for Hindus only? No. Like the Parsis who, when they landed in Gujarat showed the local king that there is still room for sugar in a full glass of milk, all those who add sweetness to the Indian milieu are welcome. Those with hatred in their hearts and bitterness on their tongues need to seek ask where they got those traits.

Naqshbandi #69: ``After all, the Rafidis have always stabbed Muslims in the back when it comes to the crunch``

The more I read your replies, the more complex Islam starts to become for me. Could you explain, once and for all people, exactly how you divide the various sects/groups etc. in Islam. Where exactly does a Rafidi fit it? Shias Sunnis, I know about. Now where exactly does everyone else fit in, and what does one gain from having so many different division?

Naqshbandi # 69

Well said brother Naqshbandi. These descendents of Jews will stab Muslims before other kafirs can. Muslims learn about them.

http://www.islamzine.com/ideologies/sects/shias/she3aa.html

Shia`s

Aboo Ibraheem
Salam Aleukum to the Muslimeen

Beaware of the shia learn their religion like u learn the religion of the kafireen .

Of all the many characteristics whereby the Shi`a group differ from the Sunnites, what makes the Shiites worst is the fact that they bear the creed of Hurufi. Those who are excessive in the creed of Rafidi become disbelievers. Rafidis were few and were about to perish, when Shah Ismail, one of them, established a state; so they increased in number. The creed infiltrated into our country, too; almost all the Darwish convents came into contact with it, and many innocent people caught this contagion and tumbled down into eternal death. May Allahu ta`ala not let us dissent from the right, pure belief of the Ahl as- Sunnat. May He protect us against the perils called Shiism, which instigate faction among Muslims! Amin. It is written on the initial pages of Tuhfa-i ithna `ashariyya: The founder of Shiism was a Jew from Yaman, namely, Abdullah bin Saba, who was exiled to Madayin by Hadrat Ali because he called him a god. [It is written in Munjid that he was a Jew who came from Egypt to Medina in 34 A.H. (657) and became a Muslim.] This group of heresy took a different shape in every century, was put into a definite shape during the time of Shah Ismail, and books were written. Shiism was established during the time of Hadrat Ali. Its spreading among people began afterwards. In the sixtieth year of the Hegira, the Kisaniyya sect, in the sixty-sixth year the Mukhtariyya sect, and in the hundred and ninth year the Hishamiyya sect appeared, yet they could not catch on and perished. The Zaydiyya sect, which has been distracting Muslims from the right way for centuries, appeared in the hundred and twelfth year, and all the other sects appeared later. We may say briefly that all sects of bidat which have been instigating faction among Muslims appeared after the deaths of all the Sahaba. The beliefs of all the Shia sects come together in three groups:


1) Tafdiliyya: they say that Hadrat Ali is the highest of the Sahaba.

2) Sabbiyya: they say that the Sahaba, with a few exceptions, became cruel disbelievers. They speak ill of them.

3) Ghulat-i Shia: they say that Hadrat Ali is a god. So do the groups of Sabaiyya and Nusayriyya. They do not practice any worshipping.


These people have always gathered around one of the grandsons of Hadrad Ali and Hadrat Abbas and differed into various sects. When Imam-i Zaynalabidin passed away most of them came together around his son Zayd and while enroute to fight Yusuf-i Saqafi, who had been assigned the governor of Iraq by the Amawi (Umayyad) ruler Hisham bin Abdulmalik, some of them dissented from Zayd. Zayd called them Rafidi. But they named themselves Imamiyya. Those who remained with Zayd were called Zaydi. Both groups said, ``After Rasulullah, the caliphate belongs to the twelve imams.``

The Twelve imams are Ali bin Abi Talib, Hasan, Husain, Zaynalabidin, Muhammad Baqir, Jafar-i- Sadiq, Musa Kazim, Ali Rida, Muhammad Jawad Taqiy, Ali Naqiy, Hasan Askari Zakiy and Muhammad Mahdi. Attaching themselves to various sons of these twelve imams, they parted into different groups. Today the majority of them are Imamiyya and hold the first of the three main kinds of creed, yet there have been changes in their beliefs over the course of time. They now call themselves Jafari. There is lengthy information about the Jafaris in the entry Jafari Sadiq, the hundred and eighty-third entry of the word list at the end of the Turkish origin of the book.]

From the article:

{By no means are the doors of History closed to further redrawing of borders whether here in South Asia or in the world. All effective cases for political autonomy should be entertained.}

Along these lines, it is fascinating to observe how frequently those advocating the further division and subdivision of India into new nations, happen to be Pakistanis. They are motivated, of course, by a purely disinterested desire to spread sweetnes and light. Perhaps they could lead by example, and show other `South Asians` the true benefits of redrawing of national boundaries, by starting at home. Free nations of Baluchistan and Sind might be a good place to begin.