Towards Greater Tolerance

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PS: The thing is that nothing can alleviate the pangs of hatred which people like P-Mishra2 suffer from. Despite all the examples I have given in multiple posts of very successful Pakistani Hindus both from personal life and national life, P-Mishra claims through divine powers that I don`t know any Pakistani Hindus... turra yeh kay when I give the example of Justice Rana Bhagwandas, he compares that example to Bal Thackerey saying that his sweeper is a Muslim... the sheer lack of reason in that statement baffles me...

BTW On this website which is a medium to reach the upwardly mobile Indian and Pakistani Middle class according to P-Mishra... I wonder why there are so few Indian Muslims? Ofcourse as per evidence provided by PM Chowk had a patriotic Pakistani Hindu until recently...

In any event I don`t have time for this, and now I will bid you farewell :)

Long Live Khushwant Singh`s India...

Long Live Behram Atashband`s, Justice Bhagwandas`, Deepak Perwani`s, Yousaf Yohanna`s, Ardeshir Cowasjee`s, Bapsi Sidhwa`s, and Jinnah`s Pakistan !!!!

PS: The thing is that nothing can alleviate the pangs of hatred which people like P-Mishra2 suffer from. Despite all the examples I have given in multiple posts of very successful Pakistani Hindus both from personal life and national life, P-Mishra claims through divine powers that I don`t know any Pakistani Hindus... turra yeh kay when I give the example of Justice Rana Bhagwandas, he compares that example to Bal Thackerey saying that his sweeper is a Muslim... the sheer lack of reason in that statement baffles me...

BTW On this website which is a medium to reach the upwardly mobile Indian and Pakistani Middle class according to P-Mishra... I wonder why there are so few Indian Muslims? Ofcourse as per evidence provided by PM Chowk had a patriotic Pakistani Hindu until recently...

In any event I don`t have time for this, and now I will bid you farewell :)

Long Live Khushwant Singh`s India...

Long Live Behram Atashband`s, Justice Bhagwandas`s, Deepak Perwani`s, Yousaf Yohanna`s, Ardeshir Cowasjee`s, Bapsi Sidhwa`s, and Jinnah`s Pakistan !!!!

re:#149 by ahmadzai
If Jinnah got Pakistan thr` democratic means, the credit also goes to the British who had decided to divide India and actively encouraged muslim league while throwing most of the Congress leadership in Jail during and following the Quit India movement. Jinnah put fears into the mind of an average muslim, who was made to feel that he could never be secure in an India ruled by majority hindus. In this, jinnah betrayed his ignorance of a functioning democracy. Democracy always works with consensus. It is all too evident in India today. BJP cannot say it has the final voice. BJP is still part of the coalition because ABV is a great consensus builder. Jinnah, despite being secular in outlook (i believe he ceased to be secular during the days running upto partition) most of his life could not fashion a democratic governance in Pakistan. Remember, he called the shots as the ruler of Pakistan, and even though he was short-lived, he could have set the tone for democracy. He did not do so and the result is for us all to see.
Sridhar

To arjun_m`s various hate posts:

# 154: ``Pakistanis should return from US: PTI``

Yes, Tehreek-e-Insaaf is right. Unlike illegal Indians, Mexicans, other latin Americans who should continue to live in the USA, illegal Pakistanis should return to the country. They should not put themselves into trouble.

#153 ``Headline:Pakistani terrorists caught in Italy. Pakistan lames it on anti-Pakistan bias.....but no one is buying it... ``

Italy has caught Pakistanis before too blaming of Al Qaeda links, but had to free them after no proof. Guranteed, they will do it this time too.

Recall that Kenya also detained 6 Pakistanis after a bomb blast there. Ultimately, they had to be freed.

The famous shoe bomber Mr. Reeve was also touted as Pakistani when he was caught only to be found of other citizenship later.

Rest assured, not a single Pakistani will ever be found to have Al Qaeda links. Pakistanis are not like that.

#152 ``yasser boy..i know you are lurking....we are all dying for you to tell us how supporting islamic terrorists in Kashmir is a sogn of tolerance.... ``

While Yasser may take his sweet time responding to your rather interesting question, I sympathise with your anger at how your elected fundamentalist extremist Government is getting frustrated in Kashmir Valley. I would say that in the absence of neutral observers and of international media in Indian occupied Kashmir, no body has the moral right to blame Pakistan on any ``terrorist`` activity in Kashmir under Indian occupation. OTOH, taking advantage of the war on terrorism, Indian Government has resorted to killing Kashmiris in custody and in fake encounters (please see the HR report). However, I would say that even this is questionable, because there are no neutral observers in Kashmir.

I am sick of Paki wet dreams of redrawing India`s boundaries. I would rather have a million riots, a never ending civil war or even a radioactive wasteland over SOUTH ASIA than to have India partitioned again. The Pakis got their Pakistan and they should sod off. Having your own country means you no longer have the right to interfere in the internal affairs of our country.

Oh yeah..a thousand debates will not get you Kashmir. You will have to fight us for it. If there is to be ethnic cleansing in Kashmir, might as well be of traitors hand Indians. India is no longer the country of Gandhi where Hindus and Sikhs will suddenly become refugees in their own country.

re: hamidm #158

...the reason pakis can kill only a handful of infidels at a time is because there are only a handful of infidels left in pakistan...

rsridhar:

I would like to respond to your various posts, but to tell you honestly I did not have any interest in Jinnah till some time ago. I come from an ethnic bachground and a family that supported Gandhi` s student in the NWFP - the great Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan (Batcha Khan).

I don`t think that Jinnah might have gotten any encouragement from the British. OTOH, I believe that he might have been influenced by the cut off from the reality pan-Islamists in the Muslim League. Recall that these stupid pan-Islamists were running a pro-Khilafat movement at a time when Turkey itself was putting an end to it. After reading various biographies, I also have a strong feeling that when he sat in the Muslim League for the first time in 1906, it would have been easier for him to relate to the pan-Islamists within the Muslim League rather than other uneducated pan and cud chewing Mullas. Iqbal, who was also a pan-Islamist and traveling to all parts of the world could have influenced him too.

The point remains that he started his political career with being the greatest messenger of Hindu-Muslim unity, but in the end got himself a country in the northwest of sub-continent that the pan-Islamist could use as a base for exporting/importing the philosophy elsewhere.

No, I don`t agree with the last part of your post too. Once Pakistan was formed, he had extremely little time to do anything. He was banished to the under-developed city of Ziarat for recovering from TB by the powers that be.

The pan-Islamism went into hibernation till 1979. Subsequently, it re-emerged from its strong base of Afghanistan when former Soviet invaded that country. Of all the ethnic groups in Pakistan now, Pakhtoons are the most pan-Islamist. We have marginalized nationalist forces in the NWFP and this also explains emergence of Islamic parties in the NWFP and northern Pakhtoon dominated belt of Balochistan province.

Although this last para will be target for `hate-Pakistan` Indians on this site, I believe that if Indian Government continues to be hostile to the current Government of Pakistan and the USA continues to put unnecessary pressure on Pakistan, the Islamic parties will gain more and more momentum. Since these Islamic parties will not be able to convince the eastern provinces of Sindh and Punjab on the fundamentalist Islam through good governance, they will instead destabilize them militarily. Subsequently, they will destabilize western India and finally the Indian heartland just like what the Mongol hoards were doing to the Muslim Sultanates of Central Asia and Russian Kingdom initially. Finally these sultanates and kingdoms were totally destroyed.

YLH: ``we should strive to prove that we Pakistanis and our ideology is the most enlightened, the most tolerant and the most aware. ``


If u start any intellectual pursuit with this belief, then it is propaganda not an intellectual exercise.

That is the core fallacy in the whole argument of this propaganda right-wing artcile.

Yasser:
This is a pointless exercise, but I will do it anyway...when I said check yourself...I meant read what you write and think about it. I haven`t commented on the rest of your article...I focused on that paragraph specifically because facts and figures aside, there is no misconstruing as you put it...I`m sure you meant well, but simply put, that was just badly phrased, and doesn`t reflect well on moving towards `a greater tolerance.`

Speaking of tolerance, clearly you have little to no tolerance for me as a person, which is fine, because I will be able to sleep nights knowing that...as for me gleefully mentioning your thrashing, well Yasser the problem with you is and has been the fact that you don`t read very well, or should I say you misread very well. There is nothing gleeful in any thrashing...and there is nothing gleeful for me in saying any of the caustic things I say to you because there simply is nothing gleeful about a person not using his/her intelligence to the best of his/her capabilities. And I will beat you to the punch by saying that I am guilty of that myself, thank you!
And I thought I might add one more thing...Yousaf Youhanna`s Pakistan is not the same Pakistan for every Christian...it is certainly not the Pakistan of some of my relatives, and it is not the Pakistan of those Christian people whose village was looted and rioted in by thousands of Muslims six years ago, this week, who are STILL recovering from the effects of that, and some of whose lives have changed forever because of that. And that riot was not of a global nature, it was done by ignorant and bigoted Muslims who heard the call to destroy churches, houses, and water supplies just as strongly as they are called to prayer. Such attacks may be far and few between, but the effects last a long long time. Some of these people want to leave, because they grew up (and old) in a Pakistan which they felt was their home because that`s where their roots were long before Pakistan came into being and they were made to feel that those roots meant nothing. That is their Pakistan...that is my Pakistan. These sad realities continue for quite a few of us, and while it`s great that some non-Muslims have made it `big`...some of us are still continuing to pay the price of `intolerance`. So, yes...long live Youhanna`s Pakistan, and yours. My Pakistan...if it should ever come to be, will be a Pakistan where we can realize that Partition was in 1947, and not prolong the situation by our insistence in regards to Kashmir, a Pakistan where the blasphemy laws and laws harmful to women are abolished, a Pakistan where the army and mullahs are removed from power and decision-making vis-a-vis our lives, and a Pakistan where we pay more attention to our own people, and improve the lives of all...not just the rich. When that happens...my Pakistan will be mine again.

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What is the truth? Are there in every major Pakistani city roads, halls, institutes, schools, and libraries named after Dr. Abdus Salam, as Yasser Latif Hamdani claims, or none as Jay claims?

The answer to this question should settle the debate about Pakistan.

What is so difficult about answering this question?

hamidm #158 With the mullahs now forming governments in the frontier and baluchistan, there is indeed a concern that they may organize mobs in the Modi style to murder ``infidels`` (the shias and ahmedis and christians in this case). So far they have been picking off individual shias only, and they have seemed content (touchwood) to stop with declaring ahmedis to be kafirs and not by attacking them too. Attacks on christians too have been limited to terrorist like attacks and harassment through the damned blasphemy laws. This is bad enough, and all this could become much worse if the mullahs were to use their new-found authority to organize mobs in the Modi style.
One can only hope the Musharaff government realizes the mess it has made by interfering in politics and thus putting mullahs in power, and comes down hard on any mob violence before it starts.

Romair #78

{However due to civilian politician`s influence, now religious minorities cannot become COAS - I don`t think the soldiers would care if a non-Muslim became the Chief. After all, there are thousands of soldiers being commanded by Christians and Parsi officers etc. right now. Religious minorities do go to the rank of General however. }

{In the 65 war, there were six Christian fighter pilots in the PAF. Five of them recieved the Sitar-e-Jurat medal. That is amazingly high ratio. The most highly decorated war hero in the PAF ever, is a Christian (died in 71).


Romair #116

{The number of Christians I met was signficantly high - in the hundreds. I would count quite a few Christians as my good friends. I had Christian colleagues as my bosses etc. in the military. }

Interesting indeed. Apparently the PAF had no shortage of personnel - and competent ones, at that - who were Christians.

So tell us - in the last twenty years, how many Pakistani Christians in the PAF have made it to the rank of Air Commodore or beyond? Care to name the highest-ranking such officer?

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