Snakes And Ladders

RE: #55 by sadna

sadna, please have one of your chowk admirers write a book like ``The wit and wisdom of sadna``

[``The so-called elites consistently make arguments for aid from the West which go like this `give us nonAbduls enough to maintain our privileges or the Abduls will create trouble for you`.``]

Sorry, didn`t get what you are saying. This fart of wisdom passed me by.

[``As for the list of countries on the INS list, the common factor between them is a sympathy for jihad.``]

Please read my post to rsridhar.

[``btw, every day of the week we hear how Pakistanis are so fair and handsome. Now you are complaining of discrimination due to brown skin. What gives ?``]

O` Women of India, don`t know about others
but this fair and handsome ex-Pakistani
who`s already been won over
by your wisdom and intelligence
would`ve have been thy slave -- for life
had it not been
for thy skinny legs, and the smelly armpits
and the sagging butts, and the bulging bellies
and the hairy upper lips.

Please appreciate the poet in me. One day, Bhagwan willing, I`ll be as big a poet as Aamir Ansari.

``I hope your J visa is in order, rsridhar ;-) If not we can always ask hamidm to help.... he has been looking for a South Indian son-in-law on chowk for ages. ``

Just mae sure you are not wearing the open toed sandal when you go visit HamidM. He has often expressed his displeasure about that :)

RE: #67 by pmishra2

[``Anyone with even the smallest amount of common-sense is well aware that US regulations will eventually encompass all countries to whom the US issues a visa``]

pmishra2, apparently most Hindian interactors on chowk, sadna, rsridhar, stuka, jay et. al. lack this ``smallest amount of common sense``...... at least you are so full of it: I don`t mean common sense of course.

#66 ali_1

Anyone with even the smallest amount of common-sense is well aware that US regulations will eventually encompass all countries to whom the US issues a visa. I would hope India and other countries in the region are covered soon, as otherwise a pakistani or some arabs can acquire an indian passport and use it as a cover. Regrettably, there is a clear ethnic connection between Indians and nations supporting terror which can be used to the advantage of terrorists.

BUT the interesting thing is that some people lack common-sense. They can keep on screaming illogical claims about harassment and whatever else they feel like. That is the topic of discussion here !

Here are some gems:

http://www.dawn.com/2003/01/17/top6.htm

ISLAMABAD, Jan 16: The government said on Thursday it was doing its best to de-list Pakistan from the US National Security Entry-Exit Registration System procedures and to extend indefinitely the registration deadline for Pakistani nationals

re:#59 by AmericanExpress
Let us not belittle the achievement of the Indian woman astraunaut. She is self-made and came thr` a stiff competetion. GOI did not play any role in her achievements (GOI did send an Indian Astranaut to space with Soviet help many years ago). She says she was inspired by JRD Tata`s first flight from Bombay to Karachi in the 30s.
On the same note, another Indian woman is in news. President of Pepsico Indra Nooyi:
http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=286642
Sridhar

#49 & 50 rsridhar

Its amazing how the hatred of Pakistan and muslims blinds otherwise educated and normal Indians.

RSRIDHAR, if you either (a) check INS`s website or (b) ask any immigration attorney or (c) ask any Indian H1B Java body shop manager, you`ll find that (1) Congress of the United States of America has mandated INS to register EVERY visitor/non-resident by FY05 and (2) the order in which foreigners are being asked to register is determined by the Attorney General, based on his perception of the threat that the populations of these countries pose to the United States. and (3) The non-naturalized citizens of countries that are exempted from obtaining a visa to visit US (EU and Canada) are exempted from registration.

Indians will have to register, just like Chinese and Mexicans, regardless of how furiously you ``gyrate your hips`` and regardless of the arousal that gyration might have caused and regardless of defence spares and space shuttle rides.

I hope your J visa is in order, rsridhar ;-) If not we can always ask hamidm to help.... he has been looking for a South Indian son-in-law on chowk for ages.

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faisaluno #52 I think your point that ``successful if u.s. wins the hearts and minds of a group of people who have a very deep and largely irrational hatred of the u.s. (their numbers however have been greatly exaggerated) `` points to a central problem we have today: how does the US win the hearts and minds of people who have, as you also point out, a ``largely irrational hatred of the us``? And why should it bother?Does the Indian government bother about winning the hearts and minds of the pakistani public? Does the pakistani government bother about winning the hearts and minds of Indian public? Indeed, does any government bother about winning the hearts and minds of the citizens of any country, or indeed of any individuals other than those it depends upon to stay in power?? So why expect the US government to try and win the hearts and minds of muslims, particularly (as you point out) that the small minority it feels threatened from is, as you correctly point out, averse to rational discussion anyway? Governments just do not work this way, and it is unrealistic to expect them to do so.
Also, I think it is in the interest of muslims themselves (whether in the US or abroad) to cooperate with the US government rather than simply looking for things to complain about in its homeland security efforts. While it would take too long to list the different ways this is in the interest of muslims themselves in the long run, the basic principle to remember is that one is bound to fail in whatever one tries to do unless most people are rooting for one`s success. In order to succeed as individuals and as a community, muslims must seek to make friends around the world and not seek enemies. In the US, what this means is that we must seek to actively contribute to security within the US at this time when our support is needed, rather than making things more difficult by complaining at every opportunity. We need the rest of the world, and definitely the US, much more than we are needed. This is the plain and simple truth, based on the realities of the economic situation of muslims and pakistanis in particular, our socio-political backwardness, and our cultural primitiveness.

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Re: slodhi # 14

Read Ahmed Rashid`s Taliban and in that book, he documents that religion was used against the communist in Afghanistan in the 1970s. When the communist coup happened and Zahir Shah was exiled, Ahmed Masood Shah and Gulbudddin Hektmayar (sp?) fled to Pakistan and ZAB allowed them to open a madrassa, train and organize a resistence to Kabul.

ZAB was a political opportunist and he used religion, when it suited his political interests. The pipelines came much later and the Taliban were not created in 1996. They had already appeared on the scene by 1994 in Afghanistan and were in fact, a reality by the time the Soviet Union left Afghanistan in 1989.

Yes, you have a valid argument that the Americans created the Muslim jehadi outfits and revived the concept of jihad to fight their dirty war in Afghanistan, but did Pakistan had to support them, continue to organize them, train, provide them with moral, diplomatic and military support and offer them the right to use its sovereign soil for their opium-induced drug hazed missions of a psuedo religious crusade after 1989? The minute the sovereign state of Pakistan did that, that is rented its soil to the highest bidder, it soverignity ceased to exist.

Who created the reality? Zia-ul-Haq created the reality of an Islamic jihad to curry favor with the United States and in doing so, decided to support the American war effort against the Soviets. He did notdo so, because he personally believed in the concepts, which he was preaching, but to use religion to legitimize his rape of Pakistan and to remove the ``damn spot`` on his character of having removed a government of dubious electoral value. Islam to Zia was only an excuse to maintain his devious hold on the reins of power in Pakistan.

Americans did fund, train and equip the anti-Soviet resistence made up of Islamic militants. They are indeed responsible for opening the Pandora`s Box and their only sin in this matter was that being Americans, they were stupid enough to listen and agree with Zia. They were gulity in this matter, because in order to extract their ``pound of flesh`` from the Soviets, for Vietnam, they in their haste agreed to the whole idea.

Your post highlights and confirms my observations.

Pakistanis could have stopped this whole sordid drama, but they did not and instead, they sought to use the infrastructure of jihad, as created and left behind by the Americans, for their own political wet dreams. Americans can be rightly blamed for creating the monster, but after 1989 it was the not Americans supporting and keeping alive this monster by feeding it with a raison d` etre. It was Pakistanis.

It is high time that Pakistanis stop whining, blaming, crying, and generally, stop living in denial and simply admit their own acts of malfeasance. If we as a nation cannot take responsibility for our actions and if we cannot accept the reality of our own misdeeds, without seeking refuge in a world of fantasy, where we blame others for our faults and play the victim to avoid punishment, then we simply have no excuse to cry ``foul``, when the world treats us as it does. Muslims should learn that blaming the world but themeselves for their own flaws will not solve their problems.

For the record, I support the INS`s registration drive, because Pakistanis have to learn to respect the law and stop thining that they are above the law. This drive is against those who are illegal and having broken the law in the United States, by overstaying, they cannot be pardoned for breaking the law. Laws are meant to be followed and obeyed and not to be flouted and ignored. Pakistanis have to learn to live within the laws of their adopted nations and not make those nations their own personal versions of Pakistan - a haven for sepcial priveleges.

I am, however, dismayed by the reaction of the Pakistanis. Instead of blaming their goverment for creating a hated identity for all of them and having them treated like criminals, they are claiming religious discrimination. In reality, this registration drive by the INS and the criminal treatment of Pakistanis was made possible, courtsey of the Pakistani goverment and its appeasement of militancy as a political leverage to further its own political interests.

We have no one to blame but ourselves. When a government is not accountable to its citizens, it is not the government, but the citizens who suffer. When the citizens condone and tacitily, by their silence, refuse to hold their government accountable and make it answerable for its actions, then they should rightly suffer and have no reason to complain, because by their silence, they have surrundered their responsibilities as responsible citizens.

My advice to the Pakistanis is simple. If you do not like the treatment being meted out to you, then simply return to Pakistan and if you want to stay, then in the name of God, please stop your perpetual cries of victimization. If you want to live in the United States, then simply follow the rules of the United States and suffer all that comes your way if you break its laws, because you have made a choice and you must live with its consequences.

Ciao

Ref Not-Checking-Credt-Card-Bills #59

[More than decade ago Saudie Astronaut went there DOES THAT HERALD An OCCASION FOR MUSLIM FOR HAVING BEATEN THE JEW & THE HINDU BY MORE THAN A DECADE .What morons !!!!???]

No. Because, before that, Rakesh Sharma went for a joyride on a Soviet rocket. No way any Muslim can beat a Hindu. In fact, a Vietnamese. a Frenchman, a Czech (at least, I think it was a Czech, certainly someone from Eastern Europe) and an Indian had hitched rides on Soviet spacecraft before the US thought of accommodating some useless Saudi Fakhr in their space shuttle.

By the way, Kalpana Chawla, the US astronaut of Indian descent was not selected just to provide some diversity. She is a mission specialist, a scientist with good credentials.

#48 rsridhar:

In addition to those said, add these:

Indian astronaut included in shuttle journey along with israeli astronaut, that went off today, amid security.

have you fathomed the business travel between the india/us. there are now more business visitors to india and reverse. gov davis/calif and many governers in usa are after indian investment in US.
the call centers, bio-tech research, code/research for tech, i could go on....

us interests are always going to economic more than political, even though there is some political thought. pakistan doesn`t have a big chunk of middle class with ``purchasing power``. the key is purchasing power.

do you know where USA is going for teachers, nurses::::India.

one of the strategic blunders that pakistan is making is lack of education for women. if you go by MMA slogan, they are more interested in burka diktats than education.

women cannot see men, men cannot see women ends up with no women studying to become nurses. these nurses make pretty good income, around 80K. because of pakistan`s shortsightedness, the income is taken by other countries, such as phillipines/india. pakistani men end up being mostly in the low-rung job scale, which is unfortunate.

another classic example, i can think, why women`s education is so important. take the case of the ``macho`` mullah type who doesn`t want his wife to study. when that person becomes old and needs to be fed medication, who is going to read the prescription, etc? If that mullah moron asks his wife to make a phone call and talk to dr some important thing, what can she do? other than plead ignorance!

hello....

ali_1 #34
We have been informed innumerable times how Pakistan was on its way to becoming a developed country like S. Korea, but these days you are content to call yourself a third world country. The so-called elites consistently make arguments for aid from the West which go like this `give us nonAbduls enough to maintain our privileges or the Abduls will create trouble for you`.

As for the list of countries on the INS list, the common factor between them is a sympathy for jihad. Guess where Pakistan insists on fighting jihad? I don`t know about the other countries but whenever a jihadi leader is released in Pakistan, the news appears in the US press, because these groups are known sympathisers and harborers of Al Qaeda. A Pakistani doctor is now known to have harbored 4 senior members of Al Qaeda and one suspect from the Bali blast is known to be hiding in Pakistan. Why doesn`t the Pakistani govt. take a stronger line and put an end to this nonsense? Because of Kashmir.

btw, every day of the week we hear how Pakistanis are so fair and handsome. Now you are complaining of discrimination due to brown skin. What gives ?

re:#34 by ali_1
It is difficult for me to imagine that Indians in US could be forced to register. India recently surpassed China as the country sending second largest number of immigrants (after Mexico). Student visas this year were a record high at a time when students across Pak are being denied visas (did you read the sad story of a Pakistani student who was denied a visa to study in Stanford?). The trend is clear. US would not allow so many students into the country in the first place if it were only to ask them to register at a later date. It is a lot easier to filter at the point of entry.

Also, such a step would have logistical problems. There are more than 2 million Indians in US. INS would be hardpressed to scrutinise the applications of all. Even if it says only H1B and student visa holders would be scrutinised, that in itself is a huge number. What would be the justification? Not even Indian muslims are known to be involved with Al-qaida, leave aside the hindus. The only 2 Indian muslims caught by INS have been released. Both were proved to be innocent. One owned up to some credit card fraud and spent some time in jail.
The other reason is that almost unknown to most Paksitanis, India and US have been forging a strategic security relationship. Did you hear that the sale of Falcon by Israel has been finally Okayed by US after initial hesitation? Pak fought tooth and nail to prevent this from happening. US obviously does not feel any security threat. Did you hear US making any fuss recently when India fired its missiles? US,OTOH, is selling India many defense parts. It is a different ball game now, a game in which India is a player and not a suspect.
There is one more reason. Indian caucus in US is politically very active. Any measure by INS to register Indians would meet stiff resistance. INS would have to explain why? They just can`t.
Sridhar

re:#34 by ali_1
In continuation of my post regarding registration of immigrants and visitors, i have to add something more. It is entirely possible that Indians may still be asked to register. But for an entirely different reason. Indians and Pakistanis are often confused in US. I have been hearing stories of many Pakistanis going around with fake Indian passports. If this becomes a big problem. INS may simply say: let Indians too register and clear this confusion. But then, even before that happens, Indian Embassy can issue notice to all Indians in US to renew their passports, thereby filtering fake passport holders.
Sridhar