Snakes And Ladders

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ras,

these registration procedures a confused attempt to face threats.

Ref ali87 #103

[Many more can be seen donating 151 dollars in the neighbourhoud temples for special poojas but cant be convinced to suppourt the education of four poor children of their choice in their own neighourhood back home.]

You are both right and wrong.

I was approached in a temple in Washington, DC, by a fresh-off-the-boat Indian grad student for donations for ASHA, the group that concentrates its resources on literacy and village improvement projects in India. I went to a meeting addressed by Swami Dayanand Saraswathi in Akron who was attempting to raise funds for one residential school in each district in India for the poor who cannot afford to commute 10+ kilometers each way daily to attend classes. They already have several schools operational. Yet another friend of mine in LA was asking for funds for schools at the rate of $1 a day ($365 a year).

ASHA raised $300,000 last year. If each Indian in the US gave $1 a year, they would have raised $1.5 million. So you can see the apathy of Indians. Their attitude is: I made it the hard way and you should do too. What is that crap about building character by living through hard times?

Most Indians in the US are children of one or two children families. They have been given everything they asked for. It is so difficult to see these people, pampered by their parents all their lives, having absolutely no compassion for the poor in India. If the money spent educating these folks in engineering and computer science had instead been spent in primary and secondary education for all, there would be no illiteracy in India but then these Fakhrs would not have the skills to find a job in the US either. No such trade-off analyses are ever done; it is more inmportant to buy your average Indian`s dream car (Honda Accord, silver grey in color) than part with a couple of dollars to lend a helping hand to an unfortunate Indian child.

I am more impressed by that grad student who was spending his weekend attempting to raise money than all the fcuking code coolies who slave away for the glory of Cisco, MicroSoft, Oracle or SAP and put on airs when you meet them somewhere.

there is another guy I know who is producing 20 high quality VLSI design enggs each year in remote Manipal in only three years the these fresh guys are already registering US patents without stepping out of India.

But these people are exceptions. Even a small attempt to help create science text book and helpers for school kids in chennai has elicted poor response from the people here. Not that they dont have time or cant take help of their overeducated home bound wifes in that.

So you are typically talking of exceptions...

Many more can be seen donating 151 dollars in the neighbourhoud temples for special poojas but cant be convinced to suppourt the education of four poor children of their choice in their own neighourhood back home. With the organisation only providing guidlines on how to help poor and not taking any money itself.

At the same time the millons that is funneled to RSS and VHP is well known. Till this date VHP and other hindu organisations have refused to reveal thier funds and are the only establishments in India who are not open to public scrutiniy and audit as regards the source of funds.

I have no doubt that the milllons of dollars that funds VHP comes from the likes of you.

The only true Pakistanis on Chowk are two Indians - studebaker and ali_1 ;)

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#96 by arjun_m on January 22, 2003 7:30am PT

Well if my experience with 100+ people in my company and the more than a dozen others from other compaines who I know is any indication I dont think so.

Any beinfit to the country is indirect result of any action that satisfies their personal needs. Like earning dollars.

On Independence day This ``Muslim`` (otherwise labeled ``Sophistacated Hindu pobe``) had to print Indian flags and distribute it to 100 mostly hindu Indians to put on their PC`s or cubicles. Less than 10 bothered to honour the flag. Most were of the impression that it would not please the goras (one even told me that it might be against the law!). They did not come to a small afternoon get together in the office with permission of the Client to sing the National Anthem. Only 20 turned up and there were 6 goras honouring our National Anthem by singing with us wondered why the rest of the Indians did not turnup.

I had to put across to the Client Management(the hindu managers were too worried that it might affect their efficient image, mental salvery in my opinon)that Diwali is a Major Religous holiday in India. On knowing this the client gave people off for the rest of the day.

You may sell your drivel easily to the pakistanis but reality is quite different to the one that you pretend it is. It takes one living amongst the likes of you to know who dreams of Chaddi dreams and one who doesnt.

#95 by AmericanExpress on January 21, 2003 6:03pm PT

Funny thing is Indian Ummah is ok for most Hindus but not Islamic Ummah It freezes them with fear(or so we are led to belive.)

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#80 by pmishra2 on January 19, 2003 6:05pm PT

Pretty easy to identify wannabe RSS chaddi walas.

They call their country as uncivilised. They even do not comment on my protest on the reference of Gandhi being called as coming from a uncilvised culture.

They instead try to cloud the issue and defend their partners by calling people who expose them as having Hindu Phobia(thanks at least for considering that as sophisticated sic.)

#76 by ssdhillon on January 17, 2003 6:18pm PT
73 by ali87 on January 17, 2003 4:25pm PT
+++++++++
Jerk I happen to be an Indian. But that is frequently lost on you.
++++++++++

Don`t blame arjun for that. Even I have never heard anything from you that would make me beleive that you are Indian.

Your jehadi, muslim-supremacist mentality is typical of a pakistani....it is a shame even Indian muslims are going that way.
++++++++++++++

Nice tactic... Now I dont remember doing that.. but you do..

so go over my posts again and point that out to me..

Or else give me some real arguments

#85 by sadna on January 20, 2003 7:11am PT

Tell us something that we already dont know..

how about killing of 3 million in a country thousands of miles away. A country which could not attack you even if it wanted. Killing these millions not because they attacked you or were a danger to you then or later.

That exactly is my contention.. why act holier than thou when blood is on every hands..

but people like you an arjun would have us belive us otherwise.

That this line of thinking has no affect on most people is lost on the likes of you.

Your way of thinking is that any wrong on your part can be explained away with listing the faults of others..

No attempt at dealing with it honestly.

This is the same of pakistanis as well as Indians but for a handful of exceptions.

#80 by pmishra2 on January 19, 2003 6:05pm PT

Its hard to know which is more amusing. Your open racial and cultural prejidice or the more sophisticated hindu-phobia of your buddy ali87

------

Does overcoming hinduphobia mean not exposing your muslim phobia??

something which is not to sophisticated by the way.

re:#88 by tahmed32
Now i hear (from a News clipping in Dawn) that even Indians will eventually have to register. This is inevitable. This is the way US is moving. I hope it will make some idiots, gloating over the fact that Pakis have to register, feel humble.
Sridhar

shankar asks: ``If a Pakistani is a naturalised US citizen--does that person have to register?``
I believe US citizens, permanent residents and a few other categories need not register. Where do I send the bill for this legal advice? (Or perhaps you can provide some pro bono psychiatric advice to some of my chowk friends in return).

I did get a lot of feedback on this article from a number of sources.
It was published in Pakistan and Bangladesh too.

Not much to comment on the replies here because the usual India-Pakistan bashing dominated reason.

I was trying to say two things here.

1) Singling out people on the basis of National Origin and race is wrong.
All people should register.

2) This is having a very neagtive impact in my community and beyond
because it is a high impact human problem.

For futher elaboration, please read my report in the Pakistan Link community section on the MLK Ceremony in Sacramento.

Thanks

Ras

Ali1 is not an Indian. Any idiot can come on this board and claim to be an Indian. If he happens to actually be Indian, then I guess he is a very unhappy person. I feel sad for him.

ferozk
#61

Bravo!

You hit that right out of the ball park...home run! 6-er!
Brutally honest & frank!

Btw, ...this is a kinda naieve question,... to anyone?
If a Pakistani is a naturalised US citizen--does that person have to register?!

ali87
Civility means never allowing an elected government to complete office and hand over power to another elected government. Civility means banishing all opposition leaders into exile or cutting off their heads. Civility means imposing separate electorates based on religion. Civility means specifying mandatory death sentence for remarks about the Holy Prophet including whether his parents were Muslim. Civility means asking a woman to produce for 4 witnesses to her rape or face imprisonment. Civility is arming Gulbuddin Hekmatyar to bomb his own capital for 2- 5 years until another set of sociopaths, the Taliban came along. Civility is to create refugees in millions by aiding and abetting a civil war next door. Civility means giving in to Pakistani generals narrow ideological vision for the subcontinent of autocratic rule with or without Islam best exemplified by Pakistan`s past and present, Azad Kashmir`s present and Afghanistan`s past puppet regimes.

Ref One-in-a-long-line-of-Eunuchs #73

[Civility means killing 3 millon people in a far away land which never attacked you nor is capable attacking you. ]

I presume you are referring to the 3 million Bangladeshis killed in 1971 by the Pak Army.

Ref kashaziz #78

Blow me!

#75 Shah

You are so right. Indians have achieved whatever little they have because they marry white people. This is their special secret. And let me tell you another horrible, horrible thing: some of these people are even married to jews !!!! Now, the horrific picture is complete -- the crusader - zionist - hindu - ahmedi conspiracy is clear to all !!!!

Its hard to know which is more amusing. Your open racial and cultural prejidice or the more sophisticated hindu-phobia of your buddy ali87.

arjun_m 53#

+++civilized countries might also include China and India +++

i thought you are an indian who knows his country but i guess you are more busy reading DAWN and other Pakistani newspapers, ok then let me tell you if you dont get time to read Indian News Papers, its still BJP Govt in India and Modi is chiefminister of Gujrat. Give a break to your Pakistani obession, its kiilin you:)

#48 haramiu freak go lick your dick god

#75 by Shah

``Spouse of Caucasians are considered more American than just vanilla naturalised Americans& privy to taken in confidence by the establishment having proven there rites of passage.``
You may be right in that suppostion only to the extent that spouses of white community (be it a man marrying a woman or vice versa) are regarded as blending with the crowd or being part of this melting pot and are looked upon with favor. But it is not true everytime. An astraunaut still has to show his/her competence even after being selected. President of a company has to prove his/her merits.
I personally know a woman doctor (indian) married to a white man (a research scholar) and has a beautiful daughter. I used to see her regularly in temples and she was trying to bring up her daughter in the traditional way. There are many liberal white americans who do not object to this at all.
Sridhar

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73 by ali87 on January 17, 2003 4:25pm PT
+++++++++
Jerk I happen to be an Indian. But that is frequently lost on you.
++++++++++

Don`t blame arjun for that. Even I have never heard anything from you that would make me beleive that you are Indian.

Your jehadi, muslim-supremacist mentality is typical of a pakistani....it is a shame even Indian muslims are going that way.

#53 by arjun_m on January 16, 2003 6:55pm PT

++
Civilised world... So would you care to define the uncivilised world?
++

be glad to...civilized world is the US and western europe...how do you know a country is civilized? just check out the number of people trying to get into it...civilized countries might also include China and India which are now part of the global economy and don`t start fooling land grab ventures with ``kashmir runs in our blood`` kind of rhetoric..do you see India and China sniping at each other over border issues...has China gone to war over Taiwan....

The civilized world is that part of the world that can make mushy bend over/prostrate with a single ``with us or against us``..the same countries you are begging for an increase in export quota.


+++++++++

Jerk I happen to be an Indian. But that is frequently lost on you.

So by that standards Donlad Trumph is the epitome of civility? Where as the half naked Gandhi was the symbol of depravity and barbarisim.

You are very shallow that is quite visible but to stoop to these levels... amazing this guy calls the country he comes from as uncivilised.

By your standards there are Millions who go to the Gulf states. Then they must be on par with the west why did you leave them out?

Civility in your opinon doesnot consist of asking the kashmiri people what is their opinon. Civility doesnot mean that you have to honour agreements signed with the kashmiris.

Civility means that you can arm and train LTTE while you can only to back out after being wounded badly (rajiv gandhi assasination and IPKF rout) then attack paksitan for doing the same.

Civility means lying thorugh your teeth. Civility means not acknowlegeing the real problems and bashing people for their belifs.

Civility means that the kashmiris have to pay for the unity for rest of India (every commentator worth his salt harps on this aspect in india.. ie the fear that other parts Of India might ask for simialr freedom that kashmiris are asking) If India is so fragile it is because of the fragile minds of jerks like you.

Civility means being the only country to be labelled terrorist by the world court (US was accused and proved guilty of commiting a crime of terrorism againnst people of Nircragua) and asked to compensate the victims.

Civility means killing 3 millon people in a far away land which never attacked you nor is capable attacking you.

Civility and civilisation means a lot of things looks like the only one that you recognise is the material success.

Ref Pony Express #64

[THANK YOU .WE ALL GET OUR NEWS FROM OTHER RELIABLE SOURCES BETTER THAN STALE & RECYCLED REPETITIOUS WANNABE NEWS REPORTER LIKE YOU .]

So long as you get your facts right, I don`t care if you get your news from The Medina Times dated 5th Moharrum 03 (that would be the Arabic calendar and Year 3, not Year 2003 in the Common Era). Otherwise I jump in and correct you.

[AND IF YOU ASK ME WHAT HAS YOUR RAKESH OR CHOWLA DONE...]

Didn`t I say Rakesh Sharma got a joyride?

Ref Eunuch#1 #66

[I hope your J visa is in order, rsridhar ;-) If not we can always ask hamidm to help.... he has been looking for a South Indian son-in-law on chowk for ages.]

In which case, Hamidm will be spared the possibility of a son-in-law named Butt-Fakhr.

ali_1 #whichever

I already pointed out in a post on a previous thread that INS says it will be ultimately documenting all immigrants from all countries and is going down the list in order of priority. I am not planning to repeat myself for every thickheaded Paki here.

When a Paki gets rude is when he/she has nothing to say in reply. Good.

RE: #55 by sadna

sadna, please have one of your chowk admirers write a book like ``The wit and wisdom of sadna``

[``The so-called elites consistently make arguments for aid from the West which go like this `give us nonAbduls enough to maintain our privileges or the Abduls will create trouble for you`.``]

Sorry, didn`t get what you are saying. This fart of wisdom passed me by.

[``As for the list of countries on the INS list, the common factor between them is a sympathy for jihad.``]

Please read my post to rsridhar.

[``btw, every day of the week we hear how Pakistanis are so fair and handsome. Now you are complaining of discrimination due to brown skin. What gives ?``]

O` Women of India, don`t know about others
but this fair and handsome ex-Pakistani
who`s already been won over
by your wisdom and intelligence
would`ve have been thy slave -- for life
had it not been
for thy skinny legs, and the smelly armpits
and the sagging butts, and the bulging bellies
and the hairy upper lips.

Please appreciate the poet in me. One day, Bhagwan willing, I`ll be as big a poet as Aamir Ansari.

``I hope your J visa is in order, rsridhar ;-) If not we can always ask hamidm to help.... he has been looking for a South Indian son-in-law on chowk for ages. ``

Just mae sure you are not wearing the open toed sandal when you go visit HamidM. He has often expressed his displeasure about that :)

RE: #67 by pmishra2

[``Anyone with even the smallest amount of common-sense is well aware that US regulations will eventually encompass all countries to whom the US issues a visa``]

pmishra2, apparently most Hindian interactors on chowk, sadna, rsridhar, stuka, jay et. al. lack this ``smallest amount of common sense``...... at least you are so full of it: I don`t mean common sense of course.

#66 ali_1

Anyone with even the smallest amount of common-sense is well aware that US regulations will eventually encompass all countries to whom the US issues a visa. I would hope India and other countries in the region are covered soon, as otherwise a pakistani or some arabs can acquire an indian passport and use it as a cover. Regrettably, there is a clear ethnic connection between Indians and nations supporting terror which can be used to the advantage of terrorists.

BUT the interesting thing is that some people lack common-sense. They can keep on screaming illogical claims about harassment and whatever else they feel like. That is the topic of discussion here !

Here are some gems:

http://www.dawn.com/2003/01/17/top6.htm

ISLAMABAD, Jan 16: The government said on Thursday it was doing its best to de-list Pakistan from the US National Security Entry-Exit Registration System procedures and to extend indefinitely the registration deadline for Pakistani nationals

re:#59 by AmericanExpress
Let us not belittle the achievement of the Indian woman astraunaut. She is self-made and came thr` a stiff competetion. GOI did not play any role in her achievements (GOI did send an Indian Astranaut to space with Soviet help many years ago). She says she was inspired by JRD Tata`s first flight from Bombay to Karachi in the 30s.
On the same note, another Indian woman is in news. President of Pepsico Indra Nooyi:
http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=286642
Sridhar

#49 & 50 rsridhar

Its amazing how the hatred of Pakistan and muslims blinds otherwise educated and normal Indians.

RSRIDHAR, if you either (a) check INS`s website or (b) ask any immigration attorney or (c) ask any Indian H1B Java body shop manager, you`ll find that (1) Congress of the United States of America has mandated INS to register EVERY visitor/non-resident by FY05 and (2) the order in which foreigners are being asked to register is determined by the Attorney General, based on his perception of the threat that the populations of these countries pose to the United States. and (3) The non-naturalized citizens of countries that are exempted from obtaining a visa to visit US (EU and Canada) are exempted from registration.

Indians will have to register, just like Chinese and Mexicans, regardless of how furiously you ``gyrate your hips`` and regardless of the arousal that gyration might have caused and regardless of defence spares and space shuttle rides.

I hope your J visa is in order, rsridhar ;-) If not we can always ask hamidm to help.... he has been looking for a South Indian son-in-law on chowk for ages.

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faisaluno #52 I think your point that ``successful if u.s. wins the hearts and minds of a group of people who have a very deep and largely irrational hatred of the u.s. (their numbers however have been greatly exaggerated) `` points to a central problem we have today: how does the US win the hearts and minds of people who have, as you also point out, a ``largely irrational hatred of the us``? And why should it bother?Does the Indian government bother about winning the hearts and minds of the pakistani public? Does the pakistani government bother about winning the hearts and minds of Indian public? Indeed, does any government bother about winning the hearts and minds of the citizens of any country, or indeed of any individuals other than those it depends upon to stay in power?? So why expect the US government to try and win the hearts and minds of muslims, particularly (as you point out) that the small minority it feels threatened from is, as you correctly point out, averse to rational discussion anyway? Governments just do not work this way, and it is unrealistic to expect them to do so.
Also, I think it is in the interest of muslims themselves (whether in the US or abroad) to cooperate with the US government rather than simply looking for things to complain about in its homeland security efforts. While it would take too long to list the different ways this is in the interest of muslims themselves in the long run, the basic principle to remember is that one is bound to fail in whatever one tries to do unless most people are rooting for one`s success. In order to succeed as individuals and as a community, muslims must seek to make friends around the world and not seek enemies. In the US, what this means is that we must seek to actively contribute to security within the US at this time when our support is needed, rather than making things more difficult by complaining at every opportunity. We need the rest of the world, and definitely the US, much more than we are needed. This is the plain and simple truth, based on the realities of the economic situation of muslims and pakistanis in particular, our socio-political backwardness, and our cultural primitiveness.

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Re: slodhi # 14

Read Ahmed Rashid`s Taliban and in that book, he documents that religion was used against the communist in Afghanistan in the 1970s. When the communist coup happened and Zahir Shah was exiled, Ahmed Masood Shah and Gulbudddin Hektmayar (sp?) fled to Pakistan and ZAB allowed them to open a madrassa, train and organize a resistence to Kabul.

ZAB was a political opportunist and he used religion, when it suited his political interests. The pipelines came much later and the Taliban were not created in 1996. They had already appeared on the scene by 1994 in Afghanistan and were in fact, a reality by the time the Soviet Union left Afghanistan in 1989.

Yes, you have a valid argument that the Americans created the Muslim jehadi outfits and revived the concept of jihad to fight their dirty war in Afghanistan, but did Pakistan had to support them, continue to organize them, train, provide them with moral, diplomatic and military support and offer them the right to use its sovereign soil for their opium-induced drug hazed missions of a psuedo religious crusade after 1989? The minute the sovereign state of Pakistan did that, that is rented its soil to the highest bidder, it soverignity ceased to exist.

Who created the reality? Zia-ul-Haq created the reality of an Islamic jihad to curry favor with the United States and in doing so, decided to support the American war effort against the Soviets. He did notdo so, because he personally believed in the concepts, which he was preaching, but to use religion to legitimize his rape of Pakistan and to remove the ``damn spot`` on his character of having removed a government of dubious electoral value. Islam to Zia was only an excuse to maintain his devious hold on the reins of power in Pakistan.

Americans did fund, train and equip the anti-Soviet resistence made up of Islamic militants. They are indeed responsible for opening the Pandora`s Box and their only sin in this matter was that being Americans, they were stupid enough to listen and agree with Zia. They were gulity in this matter, because in order to extract their ``pound of flesh`` from the Soviets, for Vietnam, they in their haste agreed to the whole idea.

Your post highlights and confirms my observations.

Pakistanis could have stopped this whole sordid drama, but they did not and instead, they sought to use the infrastructure of jihad, as created and left behind by the Americans, for their own political wet dreams. Americans can be rightly blamed for creating the monster, but after 1989 it was the not Americans supporting and keeping alive this monster by feeding it with a raison d` etre. It was Pakistanis.

It is high time that Pakistanis stop whining, blaming, crying, and generally, stop living in denial and simply admit their own acts of malfeasance. If we as a nation cannot take responsibility for our actions and if we cannot accept the reality of our own misdeeds, without seeking refuge in a world of fantasy, where we blame others for our faults and play the victim to avoid punishment, then we simply have no excuse to cry ``foul``, when the world treats us as it does. Muslims should learn that blaming the world but themeselves for their own flaws will not solve their problems.

For the record, I support the INS`s registration drive, because Pakistanis have to learn to respect the law and stop thining that they are above the law. This drive is against those who are illegal and having broken the law in the United States, by overstaying, they cannot be pardoned for breaking the law. Laws are meant to be followed and obeyed and not to be flouted and ignored. Pakistanis have to learn to live within the laws of their adopted nations and not make those nations their own personal versions of Pakistan - a haven for sepcial priveleges.

I am, however, dismayed by the reaction of the Pakistanis. Instead of blaming their goverment for creating a hated identity for all of them and having them treated like criminals, they are claiming religious discrimination. In reality, this registration drive by the INS and the criminal treatment of Pakistanis was made possible, courtsey of the Pakistani goverment and its appeasement of militancy as a political leverage to further its own political interests.

We have no one to blame but ourselves. When a government is not accountable to its citizens, it is not the government, but the citizens who suffer. When the citizens condone and tacitily, by their silence, refuse to hold their government accountable and make it answerable for its actions, then they should rightly suffer and have no reason to complain, because by their silence, they have surrundered their responsibilities as responsible citizens.

My advice to the Pakistanis is simple. If you do not like the treatment being meted out to you, then simply return to Pakistan and if you want to stay, then in the name of God, please stop your perpetual cries of victimization. If you want to live in the United States, then simply follow the rules of the United States and suffer all that comes your way if you break its laws, because you have made a choice and you must live with its consequences.

Ciao

Ref Not-Checking-Credt-Card-Bills #59

[More than decade ago Saudie Astronaut went there DOES THAT HERALD An OCCASION FOR MUSLIM FOR HAVING BEATEN THE JEW & THE HINDU BY MORE THAN A DECADE .What morons !!!!???]

No. Because, before that, Rakesh Sharma went for a joyride on a Soviet rocket. No way any Muslim can beat a Hindu. In fact, a Vietnamese. a Frenchman, a Czech (at least, I think it was a Czech, certainly someone from Eastern Europe) and an Indian had hitched rides on Soviet spacecraft before the US thought of accommodating some useless Saudi Fakhr in their space shuttle.

By the way, Kalpana Chawla, the US astronaut of Indian descent was not selected just to provide some diversity. She is a mission specialist, a scientist with good credentials.

#48 rsridhar:

In addition to those said, add these:

Indian astronaut included in shuttle journey along with israeli astronaut, that went off today, amid security.

have you fathomed the business travel between the india/us. there are now more business visitors to india and reverse. gov davis/calif and many governers in usa are after indian investment in US.
the call centers, bio-tech research, code/research for tech, i could go on....

us interests are always going to economic more than political, even though there is some political thought. pakistan doesn`t have a big chunk of middle class with ``purchasing power``. the key is purchasing power.

do you know where USA is going for teachers, nurses::::India.

one of the strategic blunders that pakistan is making is lack of education for women. if you go by MMA slogan, they are more interested in burka diktats than education.

women cannot see men, men cannot see women ends up with no women studying to become nurses. these nurses make pretty good income, around 80K. because of pakistan`s shortsightedness, the income is taken by other countries, such as phillipines/india. pakistani men end up being mostly in the low-rung job scale, which is unfortunate.

another classic example, i can think, why women`s education is so important. take the case of the ``macho`` mullah type who doesn`t want his wife to study. when that person becomes old and needs to be fed medication, who is going to read the prescription, etc? If that mullah moron asks his wife to make a phone call and talk to dr some important thing, what can she do? other than plead ignorance!

hello....

ali_1 #34
We have been informed innumerable times how Pakistan was on its way to becoming a developed country like S. Korea, but these days you are content to call yourself a third world country. The so-called elites consistently make arguments for aid from the West which go like this `give us nonAbduls enough to maintain our privileges or the Abduls will create trouble for you`.

As for the list of countries on the INS list, the common factor between them is a sympathy for jihad. Guess where Pakistan insists on fighting jihad? I don`t know about the other countries but whenever a jihadi leader is released in Pakistan, the news appears in the US press, because these groups are known sympathisers and harborers of Al Qaeda. A Pakistani doctor is now known to have harbored 4 senior members of Al Qaeda and one suspect from the Bali blast is known to be hiding in Pakistan. Why doesn`t the Pakistani govt. take a stronger line and put an end to this nonsense? Because of Kashmir.

btw, every day of the week we hear how Pakistanis are so fair and handsome. Now you are complaining of discrimination due to brown skin. What gives ?

re:#34 by ali_1
It is difficult for me to imagine that Indians in US could be forced to register. India recently surpassed China as the country sending second largest number of immigrants (after Mexico). Student visas this year were a record high at a time when students across Pak are being denied visas (did you read the sad story of a Pakistani student who was denied a visa to study in Stanford?). The trend is clear. US would not allow so many students into the country in the first place if it were only to ask them to register at a later date. It is a lot easier to filter at the point of entry.

Also, such a step would have logistical problems. There are more than 2 million Indians in US. INS would be hardpressed to scrutinise the applications of all. Even if it says only H1B and student visa holders would be scrutinised, that in itself is a huge number. What would be the justification? Not even Indian muslims are known to be involved with Al-qaida, leave aside the hindus. The only 2 Indian muslims caught by INS have been released. Both were proved to be innocent. One owned up to some credit card fraud and spent some time in jail.
The other reason is that almost unknown to most Paksitanis, India and US have been forging a strategic security relationship. Did you hear that the sale of Falcon by Israel has been finally Okayed by US after initial hesitation? Pak fought tooth and nail to prevent this from happening. US obviously does not feel any security threat. Did you hear US making any fuss recently when India fired its missiles? US,OTOH, is selling India many defense parts. It is a different ball game now, a game in which India is a player and not a suspect.
There is one more reason. Indian caucus in US is politically very active. Any measure by INS to register Indians would meet stiff resistance. INS would have to explain why? They just can`t.
Sridhar

re:#34 by ali_1
In continuation of my post regarding registration of immigrants and visitors, i have to add something more. It is entirely possible that Indians may still be asked to register. But for an entirely different reason. Indians and Pakistanis are often confused in US. I have been hearing stories of many Pakistanis going around with fake Indian passports. If this becomes a big problem. INS may simply say: let Indians too register and clear this confusion. But then, even before that happens, Indian Embassy can issue notice to all Indians in US to renew their passports, thereby filtering fake passport holders.
Sridhar

re:#37 by AmericanExpress
Leave Kashmir alone man. Save your A$$. When Uncle Sam is thr` with Pak, even A$$ will become a rare commodity.
Sridhar

tahmed32 sahib:

i have no desire to become an `accomplice to my own murder` since there is no possibility of me hanging out with even one virgin in the afterlife. and since i have worked in a building that is 100 ft away from a spot from where a suicide bomber did his thing, i am extremely grateful for the effort uncle sam is making (both in u.s. and in pak) to neutralize people who dont care if i turn into collateral damage in their misguided war. this does not mean that i agree with every single tactic employed by this particular group of `mayberry machiavellies` to fight the war. as much as we like to pretend otherwise, this campaign will only be successful if u.s. wins the hearts and minds of a group of people who have a very deep and largely irrational hatred of the u.s. (their numbers however have been greatly exaggerated) turning my life upside down for a disputed parking ticket is not going to make anyone safer. instead it will only lead to more hatred. also terrorists are not going to walk over to ins agents and declare their intentions. resources can be better utilized elsewhere.

lot of these policies are driven by people who have dark agendas. our world will become a much more dangerous place if these people are given cart blanch. it is in your interest even as an american citizen to oppose these policies.

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Ref kashaziz #31

[SURAH 60 : Al-Mumtahinah]

Just when ``moderate`` Muslims are trying to tell the rest of the world how ``unjust`` Uncle Sam is, kashaziz has to let the cat out of the bag.

Next time will you please post some Koranic statements about the imperatives of jihad and killing the kaffirs?

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Ref FartsAnna #4

[What is the difference between religion and militancy? They both `terrorise` people into belief systems/ideologies, and its practitioners do feel committed to them with similar fervour.]

The only religions that can possibly terrorise people into belief systems/ideologies are the monotheistic religions. There, you HAVE to believe in the one God. Thus Christianity went through its period of Inquisition and got itself exorcised of terrorism. Islam has been terrorising not only believers (can`t leave the religion on pain of death) but non-believers too (conversion by the sword, killings, etc.) but shows no signs of reforming. There is no cure for this just like there isn`t one for AIDS but just as AIDS can be kept under control through certain medications with serious side effects, Islam can be kept under control through massive, overwhelming, decisive and non-discriminating force. This is what is happening in the US today to Islamist thugs. The side effects? The denial of rights routinely granted to others.

By the way, the Daughter of the Muslim Tea Vendor of Godhra seems to have a name. It is Sofia Sheikh. She testified in front of the Inquiry Commission and her name was in the papers. Unlike newspaper reports that said she was kidnapped by the Hindu pilgrims, she said that she resisted her kidnappers and got away from them. All I can say is, somebody did a nice job of coaching her. Usually, these so-called ``witnesses`` who suddenly materialize in front of inquiry commissions don`t have their story straight.

#28 by arjun_m on January 16, 2003 10:17am PT
Civilised world... So would you care to define the uncivilised world?

faisaluno #5 There is no doubt a good deal of inconvenience many people have had to go through as a result of the registration requirement. And a large number of people staying beyond their legal limit have been deported after 9/11, and others without legal status no doubt live in fear of deportation.
However, to be fair the US government is only doing its duty of protecting those who live here. AND it has been prompted to do by the events of 9/11. And yet, I dont see a single word in this article that acknowledges this. There is no condemnation of those who planned and carried out the 9/11 massacre. This knee-jerk crying of ``wolf`` as is done in this article is not only grossly unfair to americans in general, it is ultimately a disservice to muslims.

kashaziz #7 If you are serious in saying do not make friends with ``kuffar``, then you are truly a pitiable person. With no understanding - zero, zilch - of the Quran.

Urstruly:

Your post is actually right on the money at least as far as Iraq and further Arab conquests are concerned. Afghanistan was an exception because it was a straight forward reaction to Sept 11. The war with Iraq would have come regardless of Sept 11.

Ashok:

I see your point about the aithor saying that brown skins and beards are not helpful rather than being a cause for discrimination by itself. OTOH I think you are talking about the enlarged social climate whereas I was talking specifically about the legal aspect of the policy.

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#15 by sadna
[``WHat can a poor Pakistani cab driver do? First his `betters` like Ras who call him Abdul derisively drove him from his country because their egotistic clinging to policies like Kashmir (`drink to success of jihadis`) didnot allow him to earn a decent living to feed his family in his homeland. ``]

Awesome logic sadna. hmmm... poor Pakistanis flock to the US because rich Pakistanis oppose Indian occupation of Kashmir.... I suppose Vincente Fox drives Mexicans to the US by supporting jehad against Chiapas; and Filipinos are driven to the US `cuz their government won`t stop fighting the Moros. How about the Hindians?

Sadna, you are the pinnacle of wisdom and logic by Hindian standards, but please consider that poor people from all over the 3rd world come to the US to escape poverty and Pakistanis are no exception. Na?

[``Then their egostical clinging to policies like Kashmir(`Kashmir runs in our blood`) made him a suspect in the eyes of US law enforcement. ``]

More pearls (droppings) of Hindian wisdom. INS added Bangladesh and Indonesia to the list today. Do they support Pakistan`s Kashmir policy too? India will be on the list by June, once all Muslim countries are done and INS starts with countries with large muslim populations. Aliens from ALL the countries that need a visa to enter US will have to register by the end of 04. Even among the exempt countries the exemption is for citizens who were born there; naturalized citizens will have to register. So if Pakistanis are queing up at INS today, Hindians will be there this summer. You and your soulmate jay have a few more months to gloat.

BTW, US law enforcement does not give a cow`s rear about Kashmir.

[``HAHAHA. ``]

This is the most logical thing you said in the entire post, sadna.

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#23 Ashok

right, the whole problem is that Sadna is obsessed with KAshmir. Thats where it all begins.

You see Sadna feels upset that innocent civilians are routinely being killed as part of a ``jihad``. She feels upset that 100s of highly-armed terrorists are being trained and committing mass murder on all kinds of people: low-level goverment employees, pilgrims, school teachers.....
That members of a democratically elected govt are harassed, terrorized and murdered systematically.

Silly Sadna. She should ``understand`` that to some people ``freedom`` means the right to murder indiscriminately. After all, everything goes in a freedom struggle. Then all will be well! Right?

SURAH 60 : Al-Mumtahinah

1. O Jamat-ul-Momineen, do not take the enemies of the Divine System, who are also your enemies, as your friends (3:117). While they are opposing this Code of Divine Order that has come from the Almighty, you should never establish relations of affection and affinity with them. (The basis of relations should be your Deen and not personal preferences or family ties ~ 60:4; 9, 13.) Their enmity is so deep that they have forced the Rasool and yourself to leave your homes, simply because you have professed Eiman on Allah, your Rabb. Just ponder whether these two attitudes can be together? On the one hand you come out to wage `jehad` in order to establish this Divine System and following My Law; while on the other you establish secret friendships with these enemies? Remember, whatever you conceal or reveal is all known to me; and whoever from amongst you does this, will stray from the right path.

2. If ever they conquer you, you will see for yourselves the extent of their enmity and the misery they can afflict on you with their hands and tongues. Their only desire is to make you deviate from your Deen and become like them once again.

3. It is true that you have blood relations with them, but remember that on the Day of Judgment, neither your relatives nor your children will be of any help. At that time you would be visibly separated from each other; and it will be your own deeds which Allah sees so well, that will help you.

4. In order to understand this (the position of personal relations as compared to the Divine Order) you have the excellent model of Abraham and his companions. This should give you peace of mind by removing all your concerns (33:21). They openly told their people (those with whom they had blood relations), “We are disgusted with you and your deities which you worship, leaving Allah aside (37:85-86). We totally reject your way of life and consider it wrong; and on account of this there will always be enmity and hatred between us, until you profess Eiman on Allah.” (In this way you will become our brethren in Deen ~ 3:117; 58:22). However Abraham did tell his father that he would beseech Allah the Almighty to grant him (his father) the faith and make provisions for his protection. However at the same time he had made it clear to him that if he (his father) did not believe, then he (Abraham) had no power to help him against Allah`s Law of Mukafat. (Thus when his father did not believe, Abraham abandoned him ~ 9:114; 14:41; 19:47.) Abraham and his companions ignoring the power, strength and authority of their people, broke their relationship with them and declared to their Rabb, ``We have complete faith and trust in the truthfulness of Your Laws. Leaving aside everything else we follow only Your laws. Every step in our journey of life shall be towards You, as that is the only goal of our lives.``

5. At the same time they asked their nourisher, ``O our Rabb, we should not become playthings for the people who deny your Deen. Therefore O Our Rabb, provide us with means of protection. You are Almighty and All-wise!``

6. This was the conduct of Abraham and his companions; and it is an excellent example for those who have faith in Allah and the Day of Judgment. (The loss would be that of whoever turns away from this way of life, and not that of Allah.) He is independent of (unaffected by) what they do; and He is worthy of all Hamd (praise).

7. You should not be in haste. He is creating circumstances in which people who presently harbour enmity will develop love and affection for you (by professing Eiman and thus becoming your brethren in Deen). All this happens according to the measures determined by Allah, through which you obtain protection and nourishment for development.

8. It must be clarified that Allah does not stop you from showing open kindness. You have to deal fairly and justly with all who, on account of your Deen, have neither waged war against you nor expelled you from your dwellings. As has been said before (5:8), justice will also be done to whoever wages war against you, because Allah likes those who are just and fair. (Thus, over and above being just, you should be cordial with those who have not waged war against you.)

9. He only forbids you from making friends with people who fought with you over matters of Deen, drove you out from your homes and rendered help to those who did so. Therefore do not establish friendly relations or affection with them. Those who do so shall be considered criminals.

10. (There is now another important clause.) At this time many Muslim women are coming to you after migrating from Makkah. Whenever they come to you, investigate their cases yourself, although Allah is fully aware of who amongst them are true to their Eiman. (However you cannot reach the right conclusion without proper investigation. Do not leave it to Allah, but investigate their cases yourself). If after scrutiny you are satisfied that they are firm and true in faith, then do not turn them back to the kuffar. This is because they have professed Eiman and their spouses are still Kafirs (and a Momin woman cannot live as wife with a non-Muslim husband, just like how a Momin man cannot marry a Kafir woman). Therefore neither are these Muslim women lawful for kafir husbands, nor are the kuffar for Muslim women. As such the question of these Muslim women returning to them does not arise. However, justice demands that whatever they have spent on their marriage to these women, should be repaid to them. Thereafter there is no harm if you marry them, on payment of dowers to previous husbands (4:24).

Likewise do not hold back those of your women who have not professed Eiman. Your marital relationship with them is over. However this issue would be better finalized after recovering from the kuffar, whatever you have spent on the marriage. Similarly pay the kuffar for their women who have come over to you, whatever is due to them.

This is the command of your Allah. All such disputed matters should be decided according to His commandments, as His judgments are based on knowledge and wisdom; (whereas there is a possibility that your emotions will affect the decisions you take).

11. In case the wives of some of you have stayed back with kuffar who are not ready to pay the amount due or retain a portion of it (the amount which you had spent on them), then keep an account. When your turn comes you can deduct this amount from what you have to pay them. Use this money to reimburse their Muslim ex-husbands. (Settle your accounts in this way, but remember this may not be done individually, but at State level.)

In any case the kuffar can do whatever they like. However you should always act in accordance with the Laws of Allah, which you believe in. (This is the basic difference between a kafir and a momin; a momin never looses sight of the Divine Laws.)

12. O Nabi! When Momin women come to you (after migration), you should take oath of allegiance (in your capacity as the central authority of the Divine Order) that they will not associate anybody with Allah (meaning obedience should only be to Allah`s Laws); will not steal; will not commit fornication; will not kill their children (81:8); will not indulge in slander concocted by themselves; and will not disobey you in matters of State Laws. (Your personal opinions will not be binding on them; but the directives issued by you in your capacity as the central authority of the Divine Order will have to be obeyed.)

Accept their oath of allegiance on the aforementioned matters, then on behalf of the Divine System make arrangements for their protection. The responsibility for providing nourishment and protection to all members of the society lies with it.

13. (All laws and directives in respect of relationships with the kuffar have been explained in detail. Therefore) O Jamat-ul-Momineen, you should not establish any friendly relations with those who have been declared guilty on account of their opposition to the Divine Order. Won`t it look odd and awkward that while they stand condemned in the eyes of your System, you still maintain friendship with them? Remember the basic difference between Eiman and Kufr is the concept of the Law of Mukafat and the life hereafter. These people have rejected these basic concepts, just like those kuffar who are now dead and lay buried in their graves. (The rejection of the basic commands of Deen is the prime reason why keeping friendly relations with those who have been declared criminals because they oppose this system.).

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US has right to defend itself from the people it conceives as its enemies – and hence the registration, finger printing, and racial profiling etc. Whether this strategy is right or wrong is very subjective – meaning that, it depends on which side of fence you are standing. There are about 10 million ways to sugarcoat this reality, as there are 10 million ways to say that it is unconstitutional, racist and violates the basic human rights and dignity. If this strategy has nothing to do with someone being friend or foe, and if it were only meant to document illegal immigrants then this policy would have been universal. But the fact remains that it is ok to be illegal immigrants for some people whereas for others it is not. Those who are more threatening must be identified in the first phase, which is commenced as we speak – the mug shots, finger prints etc. Then comes the neutralizing of this threat, which will be accomplished in various phases. In the first phase those who are undocumented will be deported, the process has already begun. In the second phase those who are documented but are on an interim status will be deported. The third stage will be the deportation of those who are of legal permanent status and in the last phase, those who are naturalized citizens. (The people who have green card or citizenship are already documented, hence there is no need for them to be documented again.) It is the nature of this warfare, which makes it very difficult to identify between friends and foes since the threat is stateless. So in case an act of terrorism, whether it actually happens or not, there will be a justification enough to line up a whole bunch of people because they all can be identified through a common shared religion. The police in third world countries use this strategy all the time when they line up whole mohalla – and they do ``get`` their culprits to confess. (Everybody on this forum is familiar with police work in our countries so there is no need to elaborate). The strategy of Japanese Interim camps may not be employed because it is unnecessary and expensive. People who usually quote the Japanese interim camp examples forget that US was fighting an actual warfare with Japanese and it was not possible to deport a whole bunch of people to Japan or any other country. But in case of war on terrorism it is possible because all the countries that are on the threat list have governments that are ``friendly`` to US. So far no government has objected to accepting deportees.

The argument to persuade Americans to look in to the much-hyped root causes of terrorisms is a useless argument because what has happened and is happening now is the acceptable and anticipated outcome of the strategic goals that US have; the goals being:

1. Military dominance of Muslim world for natural resources, trade routes and markets.

2. Ideological dominance.

The religion Islam is being used in two ways as a strategy to achieve the above mentioned two goals by:

(i) Using religion to minimize the resistance to goal number one.

(ii) Muslims have to prove that their religion is peaceful by showing that they are not a resistance to goal number 1.

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Usual nonsensical mixture of fact and fiction that characterizes a certain aggressive type of victim-thinking and self-promotion. Speaking as a brown person, there is little evidence of harassment a year after 9/11 (yes, there have been 1/2 a dozen incidents where latins or indians were yelled or spat at). So please do not cleverly turn this into a race issue.

100`s of al-Qaeda members live happily in Pakistan. and Pakistanis shouldn`t be finger-printed? There are regular anti-american demonstrations and sophisticated attacks on westerners in Pakistan. and Pakistanis shouldn`t be finger-printed? Even the English papers in Pakistan publish anti-american, anti-western hate speech regularly. And Pakistanis should not be finger-printed?

What a joke! Even to the most neutral person it is clear that there is a cultural component to the terror war. And that certainl cultures and nationalities are principally involved in terrorism.

oh, yes, the tamil tigers are the worst terrorists imaginable. But you should ponder why hindus never promoted it to a hindu vs. non-hindu conflict. Hence, it remains a limited territorial dispute, more amenable to settlement and compromise. But somehow that is not the case in Chechnya, Palestine, kashmir etc. And yet you complain of stereotyping??

What a pathetic outburst of whining. I am brown colored and I dont have a problem. Some where somehow Kashmir has to be there in Paki article. BTW like Pakis, Indian Kashmiris are not treated like dirt in US.

Indian

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Arjun M:

Taliban was created by the OK from the US to crush the Russians
++

The taliban was created by the paki army in 1996, a full 7 years after the USSR left afghanistan and years after the USSR ceased to exist as a country.


Yup, this is a common myth propagted by the Pak gov`t. Najibullah stayed for a while. Then he was kicked out by the Mujahideen, who are now the Northern Alliance. They in tirn were defeated by the Taliban who were created by the Pak gov`t. The Americans had left a while back.

WHat can a poor Pakistani cab driver do? First his `betters` like Ras who call him Abdul derisively drove him from his country because their egotistic clinging to policies like Kashmir (`drink to success of jihadis`) didnot allow him to earn a decent living to feed his family in his homeland. Then their egostical clinging to policies like Kashmir(`Kashmir runs in our blood`) made him a suspect in the eyes of US law enforcement. Even now, when the poor cab driver is in deep s_t faced with deportation, his nonAbdul betters blame him for his predicament and are not pleading his case, they are pleading for Kashmir.
And these nonAbduls call themselves spokemen for Muslims. HAHAHA.

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``Today, if you are foreign born you are a suspect. Brown pigmentation and a beard are certainly unhelpful.``

What the hell is this?? I do not see any Mexicans being off-loaded because they are brown skinned. Neither have I faced any problem, nor for that matter have I heard of fellow Indians getting hassled.

This is not a race issue, so please do not make it one. This is a result of rampant anti-americanization in certain countries. Why should the United States welcome those who abuse it? Theka liya hai??

Read the letters to the editor in any Pakistani paper..Dawn, Jang, Nation...look at the depth of Anti American feeling..You still think that Pakistan is the most allied of allies? Face the fact that neither the people of Pakistan nor Saudi Arabia are particularly fond of America. The allies are not the countries but the ruling regimes. If they want to sell their country short, it is their choice. Putting things plainly, the Arabs and the majority of Pakistanis plain hate this country. Now you may claim that the hatred is justified, but who cares? The US is what it is. If you hate it, it`s your problem. If you have a problem with American values, which includes diplomatic relations with Israel and the acceptance of Judaisim and Zionism as part of the American cultural montage, then it is entirely justified for the US to be wary.

Now, there are plentyy of Arab/Pakistani professionals who are here for the right reasons. They want to make a better life for themselves and their kids. It is indeed unfortunate that these innocent people have to suffer for the misdeeds of a few. Therefore, one should and can always be open to ideas in improving the process of security. Putting pending legal immigrants in jail is stupid and indefensible. So let us work on improving the system.

But let us not forget that the whole excercise is justified, and the primary responsibility of any government is to first ensure the safety of it`s own citizens.

//#11 by ferozk on January 16, 2003 6:52am PT
What is the reality? Who created this reality? Why?
The reason Islam finds itself in this hopless situation is simply because the vast majority of the Muslims did nothing as Islam, and inter alia they, were used to propagate a particularily violent interpretation of its message
//
Well you can just go ahead and ignore the ground reality, that the biggest operation to support and train these Jiahdis was carried out by US itself cos it was the only way to contain the expansion of Communist Russia, into the Afghanistan and then to Pakistan and India. They made Afghanis and Pakis to believe that this is a threat to their Muslim cultutre, and should be fought against. US was behind the hanging of Bhutto, a secular, public figure. Did Bhutto rigged the election has nothing to do with him getting death penalty. He was not gonna let US use the Religious card against Russians, so it was necessary to get rid of him. Thats why that ``SHARABI KABABI`` Bhutto was replaced by ``Mullah ZIA` as he could help propagting the Jihadi concepts for the US and would willingly fight US war against the REDs.
However, when Russians were defeated US wanted to demillitarise these people. However due to some policy differences, and political reasons, they just abandoned them. The next goal os US was to get the pipeline through Afghanistan, however that needed modernisation of Afghans. These Afghans were now more religous inclined thanks to US backed Madrassas in Pakistan and were more millitant, than 20 yrs ago. They took this effort of US similar to the one they just fiouhgt against Russians, an attack on their Islamic-Afghani culture.
US did not spent much time and money to clean-up the mess they created and gpot out of Afghanistan. The destructed country then became a home for people like Ossama, and Aiman Alzahwari and others who have been thrown out of their countries for being enemy of state, and all of them at some point in their struggle were backed, financed and trained by US. These people needed a home where no law applies accept what they think was right.
What do a Paki driving cab 18 hrs a day in NY had to do with Taliban, nothing, Taliban was created by the OK from the US to crush the Russiansand when they turnede back onto US using the same ammunition and ideology given to them by CIA they were labelled as terrorist instead of Mujahedeen, which they were a few years ago. Its time for US to reap what it sowed. Why should these poor men suffer for the mistakes of some stupid US officials who did not saw throught time, while training the Jihadis.
Q1. Did any body know who was in Iraq, hugging and Kissing Saddam and gave him 3 starnds of anthrax, and spy attelite pictures of Iranian millitary. Well MSNBC showed that rare videos of a visit by Don Rumsfield to Iraq and his meeting with Saddam. well no wonder why he knows that Iraq`s accounting of WMD`s is wrong as he knows that there are some more which he and his froiends provided to Saddam under the table.
Q2. Under the Oil for Food programme which International company had the biggest contracts with Iraq during last 12 years after the gulf war while the US was crying out against Saddam, Answer is Haliburton under the great leadership of its greatest CEO Mr. Chenney. Check that out with HardBall host Chris Mathews.
Q3. Were UN inspectors kicked out by Iraq or were pulled out by Paul Butler head of Inspection team, when he got the call from an American official who asked him to pull out just hours before the start of Operation Desert Fox, aimed at assasination of Saddam. These people were there by a mandate from UN, but it was US officials whop without any permission by UN ordered them to pull out. This was disclosed publicly by Paul Butler on Donahue.
I think thats enough if any one need more let me know I have lot more to offer...
Peace...

First of all, we as muslims are not allowed to make friends with kuffar. We should realize this fact else we will get more and more ``zillat`` from them.

STOIC PAKISTANI,

It is sad to see another pakistani trying to pass of the uniquely pak problem as a problem for the brown skinned. I can accept that when india is celebrating the non-resident indian day, it is the ultimate disgrace for a pakistani to que up to be photographed. When bill Gates is participating in the IIT alumni meet, yet another Yemani from the pak madrassa is transported in handcuffs to quantanamo Bay. When the donated A300 by india takes off in the colours of Ariana airlines to Mecca from Kabul, Harrier jet drops a 500 pound bomb in pakistan demolishing a madrasa.

Ras , it is good to call yourself a desi, now that it is not getting accepted, hide behind a wider generalisation, a brown skinned.

Ras for the sake of the future of pakistan, accept that what is happening to the pakistanis is an outcome of their own mindset. the only thing pakistanis can change is them selves. As an educated person, accept resp[onsibilty, accept and implore fellow pakistanis to eveluate their role in taliban, their role in jihad world wide, their role in aircraft hijacking, their role in kargill invasion, their role in inviting the killers of daniel pearl, the killer of FBI agents and a host of other yemenis and jihadists from all over the world.

WHAT IS IN A NAME...A LOT

I``t is time to give some semblance of dignity to the ............... and Kashmiri people and not join the superior powers they face who happen to disagree with their aspirations. ``

i ALWAYS WONDERED ABOUT THE NAMES OF THE SO CALLED KASHMIR FREEDOM FIGHTERS. Why are they called Lasker e toiba, arkat mujahideen, hizbul mujahideen. It is ceratain that once the names are changed to kashmir liberation front, no madrassa product will join it.

It will be the end of the world when a mullah in a madrassa in lahore exhorts in urdu to sacrifice their lives for the propserity of the kashmiris with no mention what so ever about jihad, ummah and islam.

The world has at last realised that in islamic