Is It A War On Islam?

Re: # 153
arjun_m is requested to kindly note the written contract between two moral states - Pakistan and China.

Ans: Yes, two looters attacking a gentleman and sharing the loot. Nice agreement indeed!!!!
Regarding Kashmir, from where Pakistan and China is coming into the picture? Was Kashmir on agenda when India was partitioned or Pakistan was created? - NO.
If the Kashmiris want to be part of Pakistan, then why Pakistan needs to send NW tribals to loot and plunder Kashmir?
It was the sheer stupidity of the Maharaja, that has created all this trouble.

Re: # 114
Exactly why negotiating with Pakistan (where you say unnumbered people are willing to blow themselves up), will improve Indian lives is not clear. Can you clarify?

Ans: Pakistan may contribute very little positives towards India and the world. But, the islamic infrastructure, which Pakistan has created is doing and can do great damage to India and the world. Just to destroy islamic infrastructure, Pakistan is getting US$ 10bn. This is kinda extorsion money ( the way Dawood Ibrahim etc... used to earn).

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The streets of Islamabad, cairo and Damascus were empty while the streets of newyork and london were fulll of antiwar demonstrations because the lack of democratic thinking in our society.

Remember that imperialist powers have always supported religious fanatics and dictators rather than modern, liberal and secular leaders.

It is always easier to control a dictator rather than a democratically elected leader who is answerable to the public.

Kashmiris are beling exploited by Kashmires Leaders themselves..

Indian and Pakistan use Kashmir Threat as a veil for their Mutual distrust of each other...

kashmires leaders want along with Milarty janta in Pakistan and Milatary Janta yes Milatary Janta in India for the Issue to continue and linger On....to keep a veil on their mutual distrust..and hence the exploit the benefits of more spending on war ....on themselves...
Milatary Janta in India also gets more then their share in these enhanced spending on Defence due to it.

and Kashmiri leaders on both side of the border also get previlaged treatment by both India and Pakistan..


Poor real kashmirs they really suffer...as a consequence..

``STOP INDIAN ATROCITIES IN KASHMIR``
``START PAKISTANI ATROCITIES``

your comments on Kashmir remind me. on my way to work today and passing by the convention center in islamabad, i saw a huge banner saying ``stop the indian atrocities in kashmir``. Obviously, once we have achieved this covetted goal - we will start pakistani atrocities in kashmir. I mean what else can we do? Our history supports this hypothesis.

In 1947, we put to an end the british `atrocities` in what now forms pakistan. ever since, history of this piece of sh&% (read LAND - another four letter word) is the story of Pakistani `Atrocities`.

A question that we need to ask as a natoion is - what exactly it is that we have a problem with i.e., is it Indian, Atrocities or Kashmir or all three of them. Isn`t it possible that what `seems` like the smoking gun has nothing to do with our current state of affairs?

The cost of Kashmir has been unreasonable and unreasonably high. It has been addiction of this nation. And in line with what addicts do, we have stolen resources from our children and shoved them up the kashmir cause. Again consistent to this analogy, with time, the need for funds and hence stealing is on the rise and capacity to earn is on the fall.

Sooner or later, the addict will need unpleasant help - if it is to survive.

But the analogy ends here. We as humans have the capacity to question and think. Here is what we may like to ask.

10. Is kashmir really an issue?

9. We have been fed crap in the name of history - on about every matter. Isn`t it possible that we have been fed the same crap (in the name of facts) on kashmir issue.

8. What is `reasonable` in terms of material and emotional expenditures on this issue?

7. Has the path we have taken - in terms of kashmir - a susainable one?

6. Is kashmir the only reason we need an army?

5. Is it possible than that `Army` is fueling this issue?

4. Do you think army and politics will allow a solution of this issue?

3. When will this insanity stop?

2. (Repeat) Is it possible than that `Army` is fueling this issue?

1. We have been pursuing plebiscite. would kashmiris want to join the `Pakistan` we have today?

Lets stop indian atrocities in kashmir. Lets stop Pakistani atrocities in Pakistan. Lets put an end to all atrocities - without being selective.

arjun_m:

As regards lying part, its me who gave you all the links. I indulged in the discussion knowing fully well that there may be some aspects of the conflict that I may not know about. I challenged the unfamiliar route. But even after looking into something new - the Chinese controlled part of Kashmir - I am convinced that that is a non-issue as no international or Indian player has ever brought that up in the dialogues.

As to the statements on cross-border infilteration, I have already given the reason - (1) Pakistan`s arm is being twisted to get the support on Iraq and (2) Pakistan has time and again called for posting neutral observers on both sides of the LOC and (3) India cannot be the accuser, prosecuter and judge all by itself.

However, due to the current American Gov., establishment and media lead war on terrorism (slowly turning into against Islam), Pakistan would be advise to take a back seat. Afterall, China got its HK and MC back after 150 years. Kashmirs want to join Pakistan and that is about it. Sooner or later they will be with Pakistanis.

I endorse your anger. I apologize, but the reality is that Kashmiris deserve a plebiscite as promised to them by Gandhi, Mountbatten, Nehru and other Indians. If you do not want to honor Gandhi and Nehru, its fine. It is understandable when the children of the extremist killer of Mahatama and the supporters of Nazis are running India, Indians will not be able to honor the commitment of their founding fathers.

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arjun_m:

On Kashmir I gave you all the links. The land that you are talking about is (a) about 2,800 sq. kms, (b) is unpopulated, (c) cannot be adminsitered from Pakistan/India sides as it lies on the Northern side of KK range where we have over 20 peaks of above 7,500 meter high and (d) has never been raised as an issue by international community and even by Indian themselves. Not a single question has ever been raised by an Indian journalist during press-conferences given by Pakistanis or Chinese even in India. So to this extent it is a non-issue.

Now, no matter what the Indians like you say, India is the guilty party in Kashmir and should look so to the world due to the following reasons:

1. Independent press is not allowed inside of Indian Administered Kashmir. Independent press plus international diplomats regularly visit Pakistan’s part of Kashmir to talk to Kashmiris and to observe facts. This is not so in Indian side, which proves that Indians are scared of Kashmiri opinion, whereas Pakistanis trust Kashmiris. In the absence of neutral press and independent observers in India, there is no reason to believe that the innocents Kashmiris are being killed by ``Jihadis from across the border``. Indians cannot be accusers, prosecutor and judges at the same time.

2. Indians never mention that they are willing to hold plebiscite, even on an informal non-committal basis. Pakistanis only talks about giving voice to Kashmiris. This proves that Indians do not trust the opinion of their controled Kashmiris. Pakistanis OTOH, are willing to trust all Kashmiris, which will include Hindu Pundits also if plebiscite is held.

3. Indian leaders are talking about Kashmir not as an `atoot ung`, but to set a chain of disintegration if plebiscite is held. So secularism for India and atoot ung thing is a hoax.

4. During the Agra summit too, the Indian journalists admitted during a brakfast session with General Musharraf that Kashmir is the only unresolved issue between the two countries and that it should be resolved.

In view of several Chowk commentators` discussion of Godhra and post-Godhra or ``Gujarat`` in the context of the parameters of Indian secularism, the following was posted at India Policy Institute on July 10 2002, in a continuing attempt to understand the precise facts of what happened at Godhra.

``From: ``drsubrotoroy``
Date: Wed Jul 10, 2002 1:50 pm
Subject: Godhra & Post-Godhra: my personal asssessment
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IndiaPolicy/message/1079

``I have received a few days ago from Ms Desai a set of documents
regarding Gujarat, sent of her own accord. These included the March-
April 2002 issue of ``Communalism Combat`` and a May 2002 publication
of the People`s Union for Democratic Rights titled ``Maaro, Kaapo,
Baalo: State, Society and Communalism in Gujarat``.

In view of our recent discussion of Godhra at IPI, I have now read
through these carefully. As a result I have been able to re-examine
my personal opinion of the whole Gujarat tragedy, and the result
saddens me for what it says of our institutional collapse and dismal
prospects of regeneration.

Sometime in February, I had asked if anyone at IPI could demonstrate
how the faith of the Vedas and the Upanishads (A) had anything
necessarily to do with the Ayodhya movement (B). I have always felt
an adherent to the former and have never comprehended the latter
other than as a political movement. No satisfactory answer emerged
which could link A to B.

Then immediately at the start of post-Godhra, I said at IPI that I
would have liked to see Gujarat ministers to be held accountable for
their failures, and that meant Modi must go, and if any Union
Minister backed him and therefore did not want to hold him
accountable, then he/she must go too. Of course that would have
happened in a civilised polity but did not happen in ours.

(If we want an example of accountability, look at the whole Dutch
Government resigning five years after events in Bosnia in which Dutch
soldiers were held to have been negligent in failing to prevent a
massacre. Or look at the speed with which the Swiss air traffic
controllers have been discovered to be at fault for the mid air
collision in Germany a week ago -- compare it with what happened with
respect to the mid air collision which happened near Delhi a few
years ago.)

Then we got distracted for some time with the prospect of imminent
war with Pakistan. Now that that has again been proven a shadow, we
are back on Gujarat especially with respect to the Forensic Lab`s
findings, and Guruswamy hinting that the kar sevaks lit the fire.
Guruswamy thus placed a red herring on the tracks in his own personal
fight against the BJP. Any opponent of the BJP would find better
friends in Communalism Combat or the PUDR`s reports instead.

But more importantly, both these reports have given reasonable and
objective pictures of the events at Godhra as well -- in particular,
they have treated Hindu victims of the mob violence at Godhra with as
much sympathy as they have the mainly Muslim victims of the later
carnage. I say this as someone who has voted twice for Mr Vajpayee
in the past, and who has tried to defend the freedom of a Hindutvadi
point of view to be expressed at IPI over the years.

On the basis of these two reports, I have to conclude that while the
ISI or its friends might have had the motive and the capacity to
cause Godhra so as to provoke the backlash and demonstrate to the
world what a lousy country India really was -- a hypothesis I myself
have suggested in this forum -- they were not in this case so
diabolical. Events have certainly played into their hands but it
was not something they can take credit for.

A ``kar sevak`` is evidently a volunteer worker involved e.g. in the
temple-building at Ayodhya. According to the police:

``all was not well in coach S-6 of the Ahmedabad-bound Sabarmati
Express on that day. A group of unruly Ram sevaks had boarded the
train at Lucknow without reservations and had put to discomfort the
66 genuine passengers of the coach. Some of the ticket-paying
passengers had to sleep on the floor, so overcrowded had the
compartment become that the ticket collector who came aboard the
train at Ratlam (two stations before Godhra) was not allowed to enter
the coach....``

``on the Dahod-Godhra sector there was an altercation between the kar
sevaks and the (Muslim Ghanchi) chaiwallahs on the train. They
reached Godhra. Tea vendors at Godhra station (also Muslim
Ghanchis) collected, as again there was an exchange of words about
payments. The vendors from the station got onto the train...``

Also at Godhra station,

``a local Muslim woman Jaitunbibi was waiting for the train to
Vadodara scheduled to arrive at around 8 am, with her two young
daughters, Sophiya and Shahidi. On observing the altercations
(between the vendors and the kar sevaks) they tried to flee the
station. Suddenly a kar sevak obstructed their departure, grabbed
Sophiya and tried to drag her inside the compartment (S6?).
He did not succeed in doing so... Sophiya`s kin confirmed that
Sophiya did not get dragged into the train.``

.... as the train left Godkra, within a kilometre, it reached the
main Muslim Ganchi basti called ``Signal Falia``

A mob had gathered, and somebody pulled the chain for it to stop.
According to the police

``tea vendors who got onto the train and at the Signal Falia they were
the ones who pulled the chain. Other Muslims collected from the
basti. Many local Muslims got into the train. They procured diesel
from the garages near the tracks. That diesel was thrown, using
cloth balls dipped in diesel (i.e. Molotov cocktails). Stones were
also pelted.``

``the fire was not intended. It `caught more than they
expected`. ``There was no pre-planning``. ...

59 persons died, including 26 women and 12 children.

``From 8.30 am... until 7.30 pm that evening, repeated statements by
the Godhra district collector Jayanthi Ravi relayed on Doordarshan
and Akashvani radio stated that the `incident was NOT pre-planned, it
was an accident.`` ``It was only after 7-7.30 pm, when CM Narendra
Modi spoke and called it a `pre-planned violent act of terrorism`
that the official version changed.``

As for the Post-Godhra carnage, I saw nothing in the Communalism
Combat or the PUDR reports to disagree with. I am no less a Hindu
than anyone on this planet (and can prove it to anyone interested in
private discussion), and cannot but be scornful of what is being said
or has been done in the name of Hinduism. I have said at IPI that
evil seems to be ubiquitous, and all we may have to counter it with
is ``Satyamevajayathe``.

To say that the Muslims of India should basically either be
subservient or clear out and go to Pakistan is a point of view which
has always seemed to me to be based on a falsehood -- a subtle
falsehood but a falsehood nevertheless -- when all that we Hindus or
Indians or anyone else ultimately has to rely on
is ``Satyamevajayathe``.

The falsehood is that India`s Muslims wanted Partition. The fact is
that the 1937 elections were a rout for Jinnah`s Muslim League in the
areas which are today Pakistan (cf James & Roy (ed.) Foundations of
Pakistan`s Political Economy, chapter by FPR Robinson). It was only
Hitler`s invasion of Poland on September 1 1939 that led the British
on September 4 1939 to treat Jinnah at par with Gandhi.

Yes, in 1940 there was a Jinnah-Gandhi correspondence in which

Jinnah said: ``You start with the theory of the Indian nation that
does no exist``
to which
Gandhi said: ``Your reply dashes to the ground all hope for unity``.

Yes, Pakistan today is rather a dreadful place today filled with
confused people who seem to want to harm India merely because they
cannot have a raison detre for themselves otherwise.

But there was also a Muslim who fought Jinnah and the idea of a
Pakistan as bitterly as did any Hindu nationalist who proudly began
his autobiography with the words:

``My forefathers came to India from Herat in Babar`s days.``

He was as Indian as any member of the Sangh Parivar is today and was
as Muslim as any Pakistani or Afghan or Arab anywhere ever was.

His spirit represents all of India`s Muslims and other religious
minorities today. His name was Maulana Abul Kalam Azad.


Subroto Roy``

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