Is It A War On Islam?

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My suggestions to arjun_m`s various responses to my posts:

1. The newspaper article that has been quoted actually proves my point to rsridhar that in Pakistan press is much more free and has been trying to open the eyes of average Pakistanis and our rulers to how the contemporary world `perceives` our Kashmir aspirations and actions to achieve them. But do remember that perceptions and fact/reality are two different things.

2. One has to understand that the world is not going to side with Pakistan on moral grounds only, because economy counts. Its a fact that the economy of India and its size offers attractive propositions to the world than Pakistan`s. Moreover, it has been India`s victory on propaganda front. Thirdly, the Muslims all across the world are at receiving end subsequent to 9/11. However, if you study the historical commitments of Mountbatten and even the earlier Indian leaders, you will note that Pakistan is on a much higher moral padestal on Kashmir, compared to India.

3. The 10,000 sq. km of Kashmir`s portion handed over to China will have to rejoin the main Kashmir once the two countries agree to hold plebiscite in Kashmir in accordance with the UN resolutions. The UN resolutions talk about all Kashmiris (including displaced Hindu Pundits and Muslims living in diaspora) and all its landmass. China`s administered Kashmir is included by default. I don`t think that China with its high moral standards will not abide by the requirements of the resolutions.

4. ``Uncle Sam carries the biggest stick...therefore, his yardstick is the worlds yardstick``. I agree with you 100% and therefore, my advice to Pakistanis at this point is to be with the might. They were with the might when they were fighting in Afghanistan alongside Afghans against former Soviet Union, in Bosnia, in Somalia, etc. Pakistan should be a democratic liberal Islamic state that is a role model for other Muslim countries. A Mulla (MMA) led Pakistan would lead us to destruction and no where else. Pakistanis should be able to wait for Kashmiris to join them just like Chinese waited over 100 years for HK, MQ to join them. There is no need for haste.

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re. sadna#138:
``I find it strange that Pakistanis talk as if when Pakistanis believe in TNT thats good and a reflection of their humanity, but when Hindus believe in TNT( Hindutva-vadis), thats bad and a reflection of their inhumanity.``

I WOULD find it strange too. Pray tell where have you found instances of such contradition?

``Pakistanis have to be incredibly stupid(or incredibly bigotted) to barefacedly support these double standards and hypocrisy day after day.``

Yes, somewhat like anyone -- not just Indians! -- would have to be consummately idiotic to see such gremlins where there are none.

``If Pakistanis think TNT is still valid, what are Indian Muslims still doing in India?``

Ask them. Many of them still believe (with some justification) of the possibility of a secular democracy. But woe be unto you should you petition the growing leagues of the saffron brigade for the same answer! NOW do u get my point? Let me spell it out... Hindu goons are aplenty to insure the idea of TNT --perhaps originally nothing more than a bluff-- remains a reality--no matter what you, I or the victims of communalism on any side of the border may wish!

`` Pakistani concern for Indian Muslims is limited to rejoicing when they are killed (`thank God we have Pakistan`)``
Gee you`re strange, to say the least, when you`re angry!

``... and pushing TNT into Hindus faces at every opportunity (10 years of killing fields of jihad and `unfinished business of Partition`)...``

Would you be so dishonest as to deny that there exist UN resolution 244 and another whose number I cannot recall? I`d pretty much call that unfinished business. And it has nothing to do with my hailing from this side of the border.

``... without putting their money where their mouth is (if TNT is valid what are Indian Muslims still doing in India?``

Lately, suffering increasing state-sponsored persecution. Or maybe you`re disingenuous enought to be suggesting that 140 million folks can up and leave and be assimilated elsewhere. You tell me! Don`t try explaining the inherent problems in such an exodus to the RSS. They probably wouldn`t care, you see.

re. arjun_m#138:
``#132 by ahmadzai... What`s that you were saying about the ``weakness`` of India`s position on Kashmir?``
I believe the gentleman was referring to the moral weakness- something you might have difficulty seeing given your propensity to measure the ethics of all things by the yardstick Uncle Sam uses.
Now, sadna, to save on another tirade, let me paraphrase an adage: one wrong doesn`t make the other right. Comprende?

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PM #136
I find it strange that Pakistanis talk as if when Pakistanis believe in TNT thats good and a reflection of their humanity, but when Hindus believe in TNT( Hindutva-vadis), thats bad and a reflection of their inhumanity.

Pakistanis have to be incredibly stupid(or incredibly bigotted) to barefacedly support these double standards and hypocrisy day after day.

If Pakistanis think TNT is still valid, what are Indian Muslims still doing in India ? Pakistani concern for Indian Muslims is limited to rejoicing when they are killed(`thank God we have Pakistan`) and pushing TNT into Hindus faces at every opportunity(10 years of killing fields of jihad and `unfinished business of Partition`), without putting their money where their mouth is(if TNT is valid what are Indian Muslims still doing in India?).

As Indians, either we uphold amity and equality of all citizens or we believe in TNT. Hindutva-vadis who believe in TNT, Indians will have to deal with. I believe, however, given the Pakistani insistence on interfering in internal affairs of India through propagation of hatred of Hindus, particularly,Indian Muslims who believe in TNT had better leave.

I personally have a deep dependence for my sense of Indian identity on the continution Indian pluralism, and for this reason will always uphold and fight for the ideal of equality of all Indians, Hindus, Muslims and others. I am not interested fighting for the rights of Muslims (or Hindus) to be bigotted feudal and racist towards people of other religions/classifications like Pakistanis are. In particular, for Muslims to be bigotted, feudal and racist towards Hindus, thats exactly what Pakistan was created for, they are free to go to Pakistan for this purpose.

#137
Anger management class for ME because Pakistanis cannot discuss Islam without dissing Hindus? Thats weird. I as a Hindu have nothing to do with Pakistani Islam(thank God).

Somehow missed this earlier: ``Its strange you talk of Indians looking at the belly of their beast when it was you who brought up the Hindutva groups. Every thread on PAkistan there is someone bringing up Hindus, even the Abbasid one on Muslim history. Are Pakistanis severely mentally challenged or what?``
Sadna, two suggestions:
1) Look at the original context of my (actually the psated author`s) mention of the Hindutva groups, in my #105.
2) Seek remedial reading classes. (Alternatively, you might want to look into anger managment programmes)

Sadna #135:
Exactly which part of ``Your Hindutva goons attack Muslims for their presumed affiliation with the enemy`` didn`t you get? Apparently, it was the `presumed` part. So before you fly off the handle again with your tired tirade on supposedly nosy Pakistanis, please get real and take note that 1947 may have seen the partition of the land called India but, as a growing number of Indians/Hindus seem to be validating today, didn`t remove the reality of the TNT. To expect Pakisani Muslims to not be concerned about the genocide of Indian Muslims is just about as realistic as the idea of your Hindutva goons accepting them as compatriots. So dream on!

PM #133
`` I dare say that for both the majority of Pakistani as well as the Hindutva sympathizers, that is exactly what Ahemadabad was about.
Sometimes it`s all just a matter of definition.``

I have no interest in fighting for rights of Pakistanis in India, or Indian Muslims who think of themselves as Pakistanis. India became independent in 1947 and Pakistanis were not part of it.

I am not interested in fighting for rights under the Indian constitution of those whoclaim their allegiances are to Pakistan, nor am I answerable simply by virtue of being Hindu to any Pakistani for what happens in my country.

If a majority of Pakistanis think Indian Muslims are Pakistanis, let Pakistanis issue them visas and citizenship and allow them to migrate out. There is no room in India for Pakistanis to fight their political causes, for that Pakistanis got their own country in 1947.

Its strange you talk of Indians looking at the belly of their beast when it was you who brought up the Hindutva groups. Every thread on PAkistan there is someone bringing up Hindus, even the Abbasid one on Muslim history. Are Pakistanis severely mentally challenged or what?

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rsridgar, hi:

As a researcher with work experience in the USA, I can tell you that the numbers that have been quoted are impossible to compile.

When Bamiyan Buddhas were destroyed, Pakistanis had felt grieved. Even the Mullas had expressed their displeasure on this. You have to read Pakistani newspapers of those days to get an idea. Please note that SWAT Valley of NWFP, Pakistan has a rock carved statue of Buddha. If Pakistanis were same as Talibans, that statue would have been destroyed ages ago.

If it is for muslims of the world to convince the rest that Islam is a tolerant religion and the few fundamentalists that we see and hear about are on the fringes, then they are not being supported by Western media and special interest groups at all. Tell me how many times on CNN or BBC you see documentaries showing the ethnic diversity of Malaysia, foreign tourists in Egypt, fun and frolic of Dubai, rock and roll concerts in Pakistan, etc. All you get to see are few bearded junkies burning American flags for creating anti-Muslim frenzy in the USA. This explains why you did not see lot of good people protesting when bad things happen: things like Daniel Pearl`s murder, murder of christians in churches, etc. Again, I suggest that you read Pakistani newspapers of those times to get the real idea.

Training of jehadis in madrassas in Pakistan is a contentious issue. While I generally agree with you on the quality of education in those schools run by insane Mullas, you have to challenge with reasoning what Indian media is claiming about cross-border terrorism. Indian accusations that Pakistani based terrorists have struck against India could be false and only a propaganda. If India is right in its assertion, why is it refusing Pakistan`s suggestion to open up its administered part of Kashmir to foreign media and to posting neutral observers on the LOC.

Do note that not a single Pakistani has been arrested with a link to 9/11. (fyi only, Yousuf Ramzi was non-Pakistani and Aimal Kansi had killed 2 of his colleagues in FBI over promotion and rewards issue).

As to your last para, Pakistani rulers have time and again invited India for dialogue, but I see Indian leadership avoiding it, because of its weak stand on Kashmir. The problem is that Pakistanis would not negotiate anything without discussing Kashmir first and Indians would never like to discuss it, because of their inherent weakness with that issue. So we have a stalemate. We observe this kind of situation in our day to day life also. During confrontative arguments in workplace, we tend to avoid getting into debate with adversary if we are on weak footing e.g. while doing annual performance reviews of our ``sub-ordinates``.

re. Sadna#124
Your concerns are commendable and shared (correspondingly). However I do not see eye-to-eye with you when you say that ``No Pakistani had been killed by a Hindutva goon, while many Indians have been killed by jihadis.`` This is factual but misses and clouds the point: Your Hindutva goons attack Muslims for their presumed affiliation with the enemy. So, when you say, ``Still Pakistanis whine all the time about Hindutva. India should think seriously of putting these groups to work to restore the balance.``, I dare say that for both the majority of Pakistani as well as the Hindutva sympathizers, that is exactly what Ahemadabad was about.
Sometimes it`s all just a matter of definition.
You mention repeatedly that ``the LeT and JeM are referred to as freedom fighters... by the Paksitani top brass``? Please provide references.
Yes, Pakistani leadership is hypcritical. However, given the direction Indian politics is taking (toward the far religious right), one really feels right-thinking Indians would do well look into the belly of their own beast rather than dismiss others` concerns as whining.
And no, enumerating the lofty achievements of Indian-Americans hardly detracts from this issue, even if Uncle Sam might be more likely to go to bed now with Advani and Co.