Is It A War On Islam?

Re: # 153
arjun_m is requested to kindly note the written contract between two moral states - Pakistan and China.

Ans: Yes, two looters attacking a gentleman and sharing the loot. Nice agreement indeed!!!!
Regarding Kashmir, from where Pakistan and China is coming into the picture? Was Kashmir on agenda when India was partitioned or Pakistan was created? - NO.
If the Kashmiris want to be part of Pakistan, then why Pakistan needs to send NW tribals to loot and plunder Kashmir?
It was the sheer stupidity of the Maharaja, that has created all this trouble.

Re: # 114
Exactly why negotiating with Pakistan (where you say unnumbered people are willing to blow themselves up), will improve Indian lives is not clear. Can you clarify?

Ans: Pakistan may contribute very little positives towards India and the world. But, the islamic infrastructure, which Pakistan has created is doing and can do great damage to India and the world. Just to destroy islamic infrastructure, Pakistan is getting US$ 10bn. This is kinda extorsion money ( the way Dawood Ibrahim etc... used to earn).

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The streets of Islamabad, cairo and Damascus were empty while the streets of newyork and london were fulll of antiwar demonstrations because the lack of democratic thinking in our society.

Remember that imperialist powers have always supported religious fanatics and dictators rather than modern, liberal and secular leaders.

It is always easier to control a dictator rather than a democratically elected leader who is answerable to the public.

Kashmiris are beling exploited by Kashmires Leaders themselves..

Indian and Pakistan use Kashmir Threat as a veil for their Mutual distrust of each other...

kashmires leaders want along with Milarty janta in Pakistan and Milatary Janta yes Milatary Janta in India for the Issue to continue and linger On....to keep a veil on their mutual distrust..and hence the exploit the benefits of more spending on war ....on themselves...
Milatary Janta in India also gets more then their share in these enhanced spending on Defence due to it.

and Kashmiri leaders on both side of the border also get previlaged treatment by both India and Pakistan..


Poor real kashmirs they really suffer...as a consequence..

``STOP INDIAN ATROCITIES IN KASHMIR``
``START PAKISTANI ATROCITIES``

your comments on Kashmir remind me. on my way to work today and passing by the convention center in islamabad, i saw a huge banner saying ``stop the indian atrocities in kashmir``. Obviously, once we have achieved this covetted goal - we will start pakistani atrocities in kashmir. I mean what else can we do? Our history supports this hypothesis.

In 1947, we put to an end the british `atrocities` in what now forms pakistan. ever since, history of this piece of sh&% (read LAND - another four letter word) is the story of Pakistani `Atrocities`.

A question that we need to ask as a natoion is - what exactly it is that we have a problem with i.e., is it Indian, Atrocities or Kashmir or all three of them. Isn`t it possible that what `seems` like the smoking gun has nothing to do with our current state of affairs?

The cost of Kashmir has been unreasonable and unreasonably high. It has been addiction of this nation. And in line with what addicts do, we have stolen resources from our children and shoved them up the kashmir cause. Again consistent to this analogy, with time, the need for funds and hence stealing is on the rise and capacity to earn is on the fall.

Sooner or later, the addict will need unpleasant help - if it is to survive.

But the analogy ends here. We as humans have the capacity to question and think. Here is what we may like to ask.

10. Is kashmir really an issue?

9. We have been fed crap in the name of history - on about every matter. Isn`t it possible that we have been fed the same crap (in the name of facts) on kashmir issue.

8. What is `reasonable` in terms of material and emotional expenditures on this issue?

7. Has the path we have taken - in terms of kashmir - a susainable one?

6. Is kashmir the only reason we need an army?

5. Is it possible than that `Army` is fueling this issue?

4. Do you think army and politics will allow a solution of this issue?

3. When will this insanity stop?

2. (Repeat) Is it possible than that `Army` is fueling this issue?

1. We have been pursuing plebiscite. would kashmiris want to join the `Pakistan` we have today?

Lets stop indian atrocities in kashmir. Lets stop Pakistani atrocities in Pakistan. Lets put an end to all atrocities - without being selective.

arjun_m:

As regards lying part, its me who gave you all the links. I indulged in the discussion knowing fully well that there may be some aspects of the conflict that I may not know about. I challenged the unfamiliar route. But even after looking into something new - the Chinese controlled part of Kashmir - I am convinced that that is a non-issue as no international or Indian player has ever brought that up in the dialogues.

As to the statements on cross-border infilteration, I have already given the reason - (1) Pakistan`s arm is being twisted to get the support on Iraq and (2) Pakistan has time and again called for posting neutral observers on both sides of the LOC and (3) India cannot be the accuser, prosecuter and judge all by itself.

However, due to the current American Gov., establishment and media lead war on terrorism (slowly turning into against Islam), Pakistan would be advise to take a back seat. Afterall, China got its HK and MC back after 150 years. Kashmirs want to join Pakistan and that is about it. Sooner or later they will be with Pakistanis.

I endorse your anger. I apologize, but the reality is that Kashmiris deserve a plebiscite as promised to them by Gandhi, Mountbatten, Nehru and other Indians. If you do not want to honor Gandhi and Nehru, its fine. It is understandable when the children of the extremist killer of Mahatama and the supporters of Nazis are running India, Indians will not be able to honor the commitment of their founding fathers.

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arjun_m:

On Kashmir I gave you all the links. The land that you are talking about is (a) about 2,800 sq. kms, (b) is unpopulated, (c) cannot be adminsitered from Pakistan/India sides as it lies on the Northern side of KK range where we have over 20 peaks of above 7,500 meter high and (d) has never been raised as an issue by international community and even by Indian themselves. Not a single question has ever been raised by an Indian journalist during press-conferences given by Pakistanis or Chinese even in India. So to this extent it is a non-issue.

Now, no matter what the Indians like you say, India is the guilty party in Kashmir and should look so to the world due to the following reasons:

1. Independent press is not allowed inside of Indian Administered Kashmir. Independent press plus international diplomats regularly visit Pakistan’s part of Kashmir to talk to Kashmiris and to observe facts. This is not so in Indian side, which proves that Indians are scared of Kashmiri opinion, whereas Pakistanis trust Kashmiris. In the absence of neutral press and independent observers in India, there is no reason to believe that the innocents Kashmiris are being killed by ``Jihadis from across the border``. Indians cannot be accusers, prosecutor and judges at the same time.

2. Indians never mention that they are willing to hold plebiscite, even on an informal non-committal basis. Pakistanis only talks about giving voice to Kashmiris. This proves that Indians do not trust the opinion of their controled Kashmiris. Pakistanis OTOH, are willing to trust all Kashmiris, which will include Hindu Pundits also if plebiscite is held.

3. Indian leaders are talking about Kashmir not as an `atoot ung`, but to set a chain of disintegration if plebiscite is held. So secularism for India and atoot ung thing is a hoax.

4. During the Agra summit too, the Indian journalists admitted during a brakfast session with General Musharraf that Kashmir is the only unresolved issue between the two countries and that it should be resolved.

In view of several Chowk commentators` discussion of Godhra and post-Godhra or ``Gujarat`` in the context of the parameters of Indian secularism, the following was posted at India Policy Institute on July 10 2002, in a continuing attempt to understand the precise facts of what happened at Godhra.

``From: ``drsubrotoroy``
Date: Wed Jul 10, 2002 1:50 pm
Subject: Godhra & Post-Godhra: my personal asssessment
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IndiaPolicy/message/1079

``I have received a few days ago from Ms Desai a set of documents
regarding Gujarat, sent of her own accord. These included the March-
April 2002 issue of ``Communalism Combat`` and a May 2002 publication
of the People`s Union for Democratic Rights titled ``Maaro, Kaapo,
Baalo: State, Society and Communalism in Gujarat``.

In view of our recent discussion of Godhra at IPI, I have now read
through these carefully. As a result I have been able to re-examine
my personal opinion of the whole Gujarat tragedy, and the result
saddens me for what it says of our institutional collapse and dismal
prospects of regeneration.

Sometime in February, I had asked if anyone at IPI could demonstrate
how the faith of the Vedas and the Upanishads (A) had anything
necessarily to do with the Ayodhya movement (B). I have always felt
an adherent to the former and have never comprehended the latter
other than as a political movement. No satisfactory answer emerged
which could link A to B.

Then immediately at the start of post-Godhra, I said at IPI that I
would have liked to see Gujarat ministers to be held accountable for
their failures, and that meant Modi must go, and if any Union
Minister backed him and therefore did not want to hold him
accountable, then he/she must go too. Of course that would have
happened in a civilised polity but did not happen in ours.

(If we want an example of accountability, look at the whole Dutch
Government resigning five years after events in Bosnia in which Dutch
soldiers were held to have been negligent in failing to prevent a
massacre. Or look at the speed with which the Swiss air traffic
controllers have been discovered to be at fault for the mid air
collision in Germany a week ago -- compare it with what happened with
respect to the mid air collision which happened near Delhi a few
years ago.)

Then we got distracted for some time with the prospect of imminent
war with Pakistan. Now that that has again been proven a shadow, we
are back on Gujarat especially with respect to the Forensic Lab`s
findings, and Guruswamy hinting that the kar sevaks lit the fire.
Guruswamy thus placed a red herring on the tracks in his own personal
fight against the BJP. Any opponent of the BJP would find better
friends in Communalism Combat or the PUDR`s reports instead.

But more importantly, both these reports have given reasonable and
objective pictures of the events at Godhra as well -- in particular,
they have treated Hindu victims of the mob violence at Godhra with as
much sympathy as they have the mainly Muslim victims of the later
carnage. I say this as someone who has voted twice for Mr Vajpayee
in the past, and who has tried to defend the freedom of a Hindutvadi
point of view to be expressed at IPI over the years.

On the basis of these two reports, I have to conclude that while the
ISI or its friends might have had the motive and the capacity to
cause Godhra so as to provoke the backlash and demonstrate to the
world what a lousy country India really was -- a hypothesis I myself
have suggested in this forum -- they were not in this case so
diabolical. Events have certainly played into their hands but it
was not something they can take credit for.

A ``kar sevak`` is evidently a volunteer worker involved e.g. in the
temple-building at Ayodhya. According to the police:

``all was not well in coach S-6 of the Ahmedabad-bound Sabarmati
Express on that day. A group of unruly Ram sevaks had boarded the
train at Lucknow without reservations and had put to discomfort the
66 genuine passengers of the coach. Some of the ticket-paying
passengers had to sleep on the floor, so overcrowded had the
compartment become that the ticket collector who came aboard the
train at Ratlam (two stations before Godhra) was not allowed to enter
the coach....``

``on the Dahod-Godhra sector there was an altercation between the kar
sevaks and the (Muslim Ghanchi) chaiwallahs on the train. They
reached Godhra. Tea vendors at Godhra station (also Muslim
Ghanchis) collected, as again there was an exchange of words about
payments. The vendors from the station got onto the train...``

Also at Godhra station,

``a local Muslim woman Jaitunbibi was waiting for the train to
Vadodara scheduled to arrive at around 8 am, with her two young
daughters, Sophiya and Shahidi. On observing the altercations
(between the vendors and the kar sevaks) they tried to flee the
station. Suddenly a kar sevak obstructed their departure, grabbed
Sophiya and tried to drag her inside the compartment (S6?).
He did not succeed in doing so... Sophiya`s kin confirmed that
Sophiya did not get dragged into the train.``

.... as the train left Godkra, within a kilometre, it reached the
main Muslim Ganchi basti called ``Signal Falia``

A mob had gathered, and somebody pulled the chain for it to stop.
According to the police

``tea vendors who got onto the train and at the Signal Falia they were
the ones who pulled the chain. Other Muslims collected from the
basti. Many local Muslims got into the train. They procured diesel
from the garages near the tracks. That diesel was thrown, using
cloth balls dipped in diesel (i.e. Molotov cocktails). Stones were
also pelted.``

``the fire was not intended. It `caught more than they
expected`. ``There was no pre-planning``. ...

59 persons died, including 26 women and 12 children.

``From 8.30 am... until 7.30 pm that evening, repeated statements by
the Godhra district collector Jayanthi Ravi relayed on Doordarshan
and Akashvani radio stated that the `incident was NOT pre-planned, it
was an accident.`` ``It was only after 7-7.30 pm, when CM Narendra
Modi spoke and called it a `pre-planned violent act of terrorism`
that the official version changed.``

As for the Post-Godhra carnage, I saw nothing in the Communalism
Combat or the PUDR reports to disagree with. I am no less a Hindu
than anyone on this planet (and can prove it to anyone interested in
private discussion), and cannot but be scornful of what is being said
or has been done in the name of Hinduism. I have said at IPI that
evil seems to be ubiquitous, and all we may have to counter it with
is ``Satyamevajayathe``.

To say that the Muslims of India should basically either be
subservient or clear out and go to Pakistan is a point of view which
has always seemed to me to be based on a falsehood -- a subtle
falsehood but a falsehood nevertheless -- when all that we Hindus or
Indians or anyone else ultimately has to rely on
is ``Satyamevajayathe``.

The falsehood is that India`s Muslims wanted Partition. The fact is
that the 1937 elections were a rout for Jinnah`s Muslim League in the
areas which are today Pakistan (cf James & Roy (ed.) Foundations of
Pakistan`s Political Economy, chapter by FPR Robinson). It was only
Hitler`s invasion of Poland on September 1 1939 that led the British
on September 4 1939 to treat Jinnah at par with Gandhi.

Yes, in 1940 there was a Jinnah-Gandhi correspondence in which

Jinnah said: ``You start with the theory of the Indian nation that
does no exist``
to which
Gandhi said: ``Your reply dashes to the ground all hope for unity``.

Yes, Pakistan today is rather a dreadful place today filled with
confused people who seem to want to harm India merely because they
cannot have a raison detre for themselves otherwise.

But there was also a Muslim who fought Jinnah and the idea of a
Pakistan as bitterly as did any Hindu nationalist who proudly began
his autobiography with the words:

``My forefathers came to India from Herat in Babar`s days.``

He was as Indian as any member of the Sangh Parivar is today and was
as Muslim as any Pakistani or Afghan or Arab anywhere ever was.

His spirit represents all of India`s Muslims and other religious
minorities today. His name was Maulana Abul Kalam Azad.


Subroto Roy``

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I would like to draw the attention of arjun_m to the following links:

http://www.ieer.org/comments/dsmt/kashhist.html

This link talks about Kashmir`s piece of land conquered by China from India (Aksai Chin).

http://asia.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/east/05/24/aksai.chin/

This CNN link gives a more historical and factual position about areas and geographical features of the land.

http://www.indianexpress.com/ie/daily/19980718/19950254.html

This link gives an account of a press conference of Chinese Ambassador to India in 1998. Specifically note the following statement by the Ambassador:

``He also referred to the Sino-Pakistani 1963 Boundary Agreement (``between two sovereign states``) which stipulated that after India and Pakistan had settled its Kashmir dispute,China and Pakistan would formalise the cession of territory. ``(This) has no bearing on the ownership of Kashmir,`` the ambassador added.``

arjun_m is requested to kindly note the written contract between two moral states - Pakistan and China.

To Arjun_M`s other concerns:

1. General Musharraf has made major reforms and is backed by a majority of Pakistanis. If we look at the recently concluded elections then in percentage terms the following back General Musharraf`s reform policies (although some of them may not support his political agenda):

1. 24% votes of PML (Q)
2. 25% votes of PPP P
3. 5-8% votes of GNA and MQM

The present coalition Government had bagged 29-32% of the votes.

2. Pakistan was in isolation till some time ago, but has come out of it subsequent to 9/11. At present, we have improved relations with Afghanistan, Iran, Central Asian Republics and China. However, I admit that if we are not able to control MMA (Islamic parties, who had obtained 10% of the votes) from over-playing thrash America agenda this will lead us into trouble again. There is a problem though. The MMA gets its energy from anti-Americanism (Surprisingly, not anti-Indianism). The more American Government makes overt and covert attacks on Islam and Muslims, the more it adds to MMA`s support base. American Government`s inept approach to WOT is increasing hate America feelings all over the world. In democratic set-ups, it is just showing up more in Pakistan and Turkey than in any other Muslim country.

3. The recent pronouncements of American ambassadors in India and Pakistan are attributed to forcing Pakistan into supporting American war on Iraq. Another Muslim country that, according to Eric Margolis, is being pressurised by the USA Government is Turkey - through stick and carrot approach. For Pakistan, the sensitivity revolves around plebiscite for Kashmiris, nuclear arms, WOT, etc. For Turkey, it is Kurds, EU, oilfields of eastern Iraq, etc. USA Government is twisting the arms of these two countries around the fulcrums of these sensitive issues to get support on its Iraq`s agenda.

4. If former Talibani repentants are in Pakistan then they cannot be easily traced. They looked like us and there is no way of identifying them from their physical features. If a person with proven links to Talibans or Al Qaida is apprehended, he is handed over to the Coalition forces immediately.

re. arjun_m#143 & #142:
``Uncle Sam carries the biggest stick...therefore, his yardstick is the worlds yardstick...``
For the spineless, yes.

``Moral strength only results in moral victories..real victories require real strength. ``

hmm... so there can be `real` victories that are all the same immoral? Interesting! Guess those of us that didn`t go to the Bush School of International Relations missed the sublime truth in that proposition.

``And Pakistans position isn`t exactly mora...``
Pakistan`s position is moral. Its actions may be terribly immoral, which doesn`t help its position.

Can u tell me the population and size of the land Pakistan gifted to China? Then perhaps we can come to a judgement on the morality of the issue.

re. #148 by sadna
Pray tell, now, which part of ``TNT [was] perhaps originally nothing more than a bluff`` didn`t you get?

However you seem curiosly to miss the point. TNT is revived every time a Muslim/Christian/Hindu is killed for belonging to a certain religion. ESPECIALLY when the state sponsors or aquiesces to it.

Perhaps you would like to obfuscate this simple matter again, which was the point of my oringial post.

``Indian Muslims are Indians just like me.`` True. Now convince your saffron-tinged compatriots of the same THEN come back and make your case of TNT being totally hogwash. While you`re at it, perhaps you will take the time to explain why the Gujarat and Central governments chose to treat THOSE Indians-- `just like you` and all -- so differently from how they might have treated you. THEN come back and chastise all us `full-of-it Paksitanis` for being terrorist supporters, hypocrites and whatever else you can possibly imagine. There is only so much of obfuscation and whining one can take in a week.

Also, nice of you to have lumped my posts with the ``chowk and the Pakistani press`` in general. Perhaps next time you will take the trouble to show exactly where I have been contradictory.

#145 by arjun_m

You wrote:

``1. Here`s how it works. A free press reports. The people read what the press reports and vote accordingly. The government elected is now more likely to act according to the wishes of the people. In Pakistan, the wishes of the people don`t mean doodly squat....The paki army makes policy...I don`t think there can be any dispute in this regard. Even when Nawaz was greeting Vajpayee in Lahore, the Paki army was planning Kargil... The press can ``try to open the eyes yada yada`` all year long but the elected politicians have almost no leeway in making policy. If the army decides LoC = international border, that`s the way its going to be. ``

My response:

If the government elected is now more likely to act according to the wishes of the people then it means that the killings of Muslims, Sikhs and Christians in India orchestrated by an elected Government has the blessing of the entire Hindus, that all Hindus of India are extremists and fundamentalists. Fine, I am not willing to accept that, but if you insist...

Also tell me whether at the moment, the American far right Government is acting according to the wishes of the majority of Americans.

My friend, on several occasions people have no say in the policy formulations after they have elected their reps to the House. It is hoped that the elected Government would make decisions in accordance with the desires of the people, but this seldom happens.

You wrote:

``3. So where was the morality when you gave it away? Are you saying Pakistans position is moral because sometime in the future the land will go back to the Kashmiris...that too if China agrees...And China has high moral standards? Are you frikking kidding me? Do you live in some alternate universe where Anna Nicole Smith isn`t fat as a pig, the redskins reach the playoffs, Pakistan has a moral stand and China has high moral standards? ``

My response:

I do not know the reason of so much anger behind your responses. You show abundance of anger everywhere, which shows that you have no strong point, except that you are irritated at seeing how Pakistanis and Kashmiris have embarrassed Indians in their hearts.

All I am saying is that when UN talks about Kashmir as land, it automatically assumes that Chinese adminsitered Kashmir will be part of it. Btw, why bring in non-issues? If you are on a strong footing, why not let Kashmiris decide their fate through plebiscite? Why are you diverting attention to a desolate waste of 10,000 sq kms of land, which in any case will be part of plebiscite.

This also proves one point: Whereas Pakistanis talk about poeple of Kashmir, their rights of self-determination, their killings at the hands of Indian occupation forces, Indians talk only about Kashmir as a piece of land - ``Attoot Ung, Kashmir will not be allowed to part with India because it will set the pattern of disintegration of India, etc``.

You wrote:

``4. The two are inextricable linked. Who is doing the fighting for Pakistan in Kahsmir? The islamic fundamentalists who are armed and trained by the Pakistani army....weaponized militant Islam if you will...How do you ensure an endless supply of islamic fundamentalists willing to die? you radicalize your own society and fan the flames of religion. If, by some miracle, Pakistan were to be a moderate state tomorrow, the supply of islamic fundamentalists would dry up and Pakistan would be back to square one...having to take on India if it really wants to ``liberate`` Kashmir...we all know that the pakistani army isn`t about to fight India mano e mano ..The option of using the islamic jihadis has come to bite back Pakistan in the rear... ``

My response:

In an article, M. J. Akbar of India had written that in order to pressurise India, Pakistan had no choice but to start Jihad in Kashmir for without it Indian Government would never be constrained into letting UN plebiscite take place.

However, more importantly, it was your extremist, fundamentalist Government itself which while attempting a cease fire with Hizbe Mujahideen (the Kashmiri indegenous group) some times in 2000, had said that HM was the biggest rebel group of Kashmiris and consisted of Kashmiris themselves. Point is that the major resistance is being carried out by HM and this has been admitted by Indian Government itself.

Another point to note is why India cannot stop ``cross-border infilteration`` with so much of armed patroling on its side of LOC and blames Pakistan for sending ``terrorist`` into India. tell me why India is eschewing from letting neutral observers stationed on both sides of LOC.

Also tell me that whether rebellion in 7 Indian northeastern state is also carried out by Islamic Fundamentalist Jihadis?

PM #140
``Pray tell where have you found instances of such contradition? ``

On chowk, in the Pakistani press, in your own post.

````If Pakistanis think TNT is still valid, what are Indian Muslims still doing in India?``

Ask them. Many of them still believe (with some justification) of the possibility of a secular democracy. ``

Indian Muslims are Indians just like me. I don`t have to ask them. I am asking Pakistanis, if they believe in TNT and that Hindus and Muslims cannot live in one nation, why doesnot Pakistan allow Indian Muslims to migrate to the land of TNT ? Hindus will always exist, unfortunately for Muslims, and some of them will always be extremists, GASP just like extremists have always existed among Muslims.

``But woe be unto you should you petition the growing leagues of the saffron brigade for the same answer!``

PM, just because you are a full-of-it-Pakistani just like the rest doesnot mean that you can speak for what I do or donot petition, even on chowk, much less elsewhere.

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My suggestions to arjun_m`s various responses to my posts:

1. The newspaper article that has been quoted actually proves my point to rsridhar that in Pakistan press is much more free and has been trying to open the eyes of average Pakistanis and our rulers to how the contemporary world `perceives` our Kashmir aspirations and actions to achieve them. But do remember that perceptions and fact/reality are two different things.

2. One has to understand that the world is not going to side with Pakistan on moral grounds only, because economy counts. Its a fact that the economy of India and its size offers attractive propositions to the world than Pakistan`s. Moreover, it has been India`s victory on propaganda front. Thirdly, the Muslims all across the world are at receiving end subsequent to 9/11. However, if you study the historical commitments of Mountbatten and even the earlier Indian leaders, you will note that Pakistan is on a much higher moral padestal on Kashmir, compared to India.

3. The 10,000 sq. km of Kashmir`s portion handed over to China will have to rejoin the main Kashmir once the two countries agree to hold plebiscite in Kashmir in accordance with the UN resolutions. The UN resolutions talk about all Kashmiris (including displaced Hindu Pundits and Muslims living in diaspora) and all its landmass. China`s administered Kashmir is included by default. I don`t think that China with its high moral standards will not abide by the requirements of the resolutions.

4. ``Uncle Sam carries the biggest stick...therefore, his yardstick is the worlds yardstick``. I agree with you 100% and therefore, my advice to Pakistanis at this point is to be with the might. They were with the might when they were fighting in Afghanistan alongside Afghans against former Soviet Union, in Bosnia, in Somalia, etc. Pakistan should be a democratic liberal Islamic state that is a role model for other Muslim countries. A Mulla (MMA) led Pakistan would lead us to destruction and no where else. Pakistanis should be able to wait for Kashmiris to join them just like Chinese waited over 100 years for HK, MQ to join them. There is no need for haste.

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re. sadna#138:
``I find it strange that Pakistanis talk as if when Pakistanis believe in TNT thats good and a reflection of their humanity, but when Hindus believe in TNT( Hindutva-vadis), thats bad and a reflection of their inhumanity.``

I WOULD find it strange too. Pray tell where have you found instances of such contradition?

``Pakistanis have to be incredibly stupid(or incredibly bigotted) to barefacedly support these double standards and hypocrisy day after day.``

Yes, somewhat like anyone -- not just Indians! -- would have to be consummately idiotic to see such gremlins where there are none.

``If Pakistanis think TNT is still valid, what are Indian Muslims still doing in India?``

Ask them. Many of them still believe (with some justification) of the possibility of a secular democracy. But woe be unto you should you petition the growing leagues of the saffron brigade for the same answer! NOW do u get my point? Let me spell it out... Hindu goons are aplenty to insure the idea of TNT --perhaps originally nothing more than a bluff-- remains a reality--no matter what you, I or the victims of communalism on any side of the border may wish!

`` Pakistani concern for Indian Muslims is limited to rejoicing when they are killed (`thank God we have Pakistan`)``
Gee you`re strange, to say the least, when you`re angry!

``... and pushing TNT into Hindus faces at every opportunity (10 years of killing fields of jihad and `unfinished business of Partition`)...``

Would you be so dishonest as to deny that there exist UN resolution 244 and another whose number I cannot recall? I`d pretty much call that unfinished business. And it has nothing to do with my hailing from this side of the border.

``... without putting their money where their mouth is (if TNT is valid what are Indian Muslims still doing in India?``

Lately, suffering increasing state-sponsored persecution. Or maybe you`re disingenuous enought to be suggesting that 140 million folks can up and leave and be assimilated elsewhere. You tell me! Don`t try explaining the inherent problems in such an exodus to the RSS. They probably wouldn`t care, you see.

re. arjun_m#138:
``#132 by ahmadzai... What`s that you were saying about the ``weakness`` of India`s position on Kashmir?``
I believe the gentleman was referring to the moral weakness- something you might have difficulty seeing given your propensity to measure the ethics of all things by the yardstick Uncle Sam uses.
Now, sadna, to save on another tirade, let me paraphrase an adage: one wrong doesn`t make the other right. Comprende?

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PM #136
I find it strange that Pakistanis talk as if when Pakistanis believe in TNT thats good and a reflection of their humanity, but when Hindus believe in TNT( Hindutva-vadis), thats bad and a reflection of their inhumanity.

Pakistanis have to be incredibly stupid(or incredibly bigotted) to barefacedly support these double standards and hypocrisy day after day.

If Pakistanis think TNT is still valid, what are Indian Muslims still doing in India ? Pakistani concern for Indian Muslims is limited to rejoicing when they are killed(`thank God we have Pakistan`) and pushing TNT into Hindus faces at every opportunity(10 years of killing fields of jihad and `unfinished business of Partition`), without putting their money where their mouth is(if TNT is valid what are Indian Muslims still doing in India?).

As Indians, either we uphold amity and equality of all citizens or we believe in TNT. Hindutva-vadis who believe in TNT, Indians will have to deal with. I believe, however, given the Pakistani insistence on interfering in internal affairs of India through propagation of hatred of Hindus, particularly,Indian Muslims who believe in TNT had better leave.

I personally have a deep dependence for my sense of Indian identity on the continution Indian pluralism, and for this reason will always uphold and fight for the ideal of equality of all Indians, Hindus, Muslims and others. I am not interested fighting for the rights of Muslims (or Hindus) to be bigotted feudal and racist towards people of other religions/classifications like Pakistanis are. In particular, for Muslims to be bigotted, feudal and racist towards Hindus, thats exactly what Pakistan was created for, they are free to go to Pakistan for this purpose.

#137
Anger management class for ME because Pakistanis cannot discuss Islam without dissing Hindus? Thats weird. I as a Hindu have nothing to do with Pakistani Islam(thank God).

Somehow missed this earlier: ``Its strange you talk of Indians looking at the belly of their beast when it was you who brought up the Hindutva groups. Every thread on PAkistan there is someone bringing up Hindus, even the Abbasid one on Muslim history. Are Pakistanis severely mentally challenged or what?``
Sadna, two suggestions:
1) Look at the original context of my (actually the psated author`s) mention of the Hindutva groups, in my #105.
2) Seek remedial reading classes. (Alternatively, you might want to look into anger managment programmes)

Sadna #135:
Exactly which part of ``Your Hindutva goons attack Muslims for their presumed affiliation with the enemy`` didn`t you get? Apparently, it was the `presumed` part. So before you fly off the handle again with your tired tirade on supposedly nosy Pakistanis, please get real and take note that 1947 may have seen the partition of the land called India but, as a growing number of Indians/Hindus seem to be validating today, didn`t remove the reality of the TNT. To expect Pakisani Muslims to not be concerned about the genocide of Indian Muslims is just about as realistic as the idea of your Hindutva goons accepting them as compatriots. So dream on!

PM #133
`` I dare say that for both the majority of Pakistani as well as the Hindutva sympathizers, that is exactly what Ahemadabad was about.
Sometimes it`s all just a matter of definition.``

I have no interest in fighting for rights of Pakistanis in India, or Indian Muslims who think of themselves as Pakistanis. India became independent in 1947 and Pakistanis were not part of it.

I am not interested in fighting for rights under the Indian constitution of those whoclaim their allegiances are to Pakistan, nor am I answerable simply by virtue of being Hindu to any Pakistani for what happens in my country.

If a majority of Pakistanis think Indian Muslims are Pakistanis, let Pakistanis issue them visas and citizenship and allow them to migrate out. There is no room in India for Pakistanis to fight their political causes, for that Pakistanis got their own country in 1947.

Its strange you talk of Indians looking at the belly of their beast when it was you who brought up the Hindutva groups. Every thread on PAkistan there is someone bringing up Hindus, even the Abbasid one on Muslim history. Are Pakistanis severely mentally challenged or what?

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rsridgar, hi:

As a researcher with work experience in the USA, I can tell you that the numbers that have been quoted are impossible to compile.

When Bamiyan Buddhas were destroyed, Pakistanis had felt grieved. Even the Mullas had expressed their displeasure on this. You have to read Pakistani newspapers of those days to get an idea. Please note that SWAT Valley of NWFP, Pakistan has a rock carved statue of Buddha. If Pakistanis were same as Talibans, that statue would have been destroyed ages ago.

If it is for muslims of the world to convince the rest that Islam is a tolerant religion and the few fundamentalists that we see and hear about are on the fringes, then they are not being supported by Western media and special interest groups at all. Tell me how many times on CNN or BBC you see documentaries showing the ethnic diversity of Malaysia, foreign tourists in Egypt, fun and frolic of Dubai, rock and roll concerts in Pakistan, etc. All you get to see are few bearded junkies burning American flags for creating anti-Muslim frenzy in the USA. This explains why you did not see lot of good people protesting when bad things happen: things like Daniel Pearl`s murder, murder of christians in churches, etc. Again, I suggest that you read Pakistani newspapers of those times to get the real idea.

Training of jehadis in madrassas in Pakistan is a contentious issue. While I generally agree with you on the quality of education in those schools run by insane Mullas, you have to challenge with reasoning what Indian media is claiming about cross-border terrorism. Indian accusations that Pakistani based terrorists have struck against India could be false and only a propaganda. If India is right in its assertion, why is it refusing Pakistan`s suggestion to open up its administered part of Kashmir to foreign media and to posting neutral observers on the LOC.

Do note that not a single Pakistani has been arrested with a link to 9/11. (fyi only, Yousuf Ramzi was non-Pakistani and Aimal Kansi had killed 2 of his colleagues in FBI over promotion and rewards issue).

As to your last para, Pakistani rulers have time and again invited India for dialogue, but I see Indian leadership avoiding it, because of its weak stand on Kashmir. The problem is that Pakistanis would not negotiate anything without discussing Kashmir first and Indians would never like to discuss it, because of their inherent weakness with that issue. So we have a stalemate. We observe this kind of situation in our day to day life also. During confrontative arguments in workplace, we tend to avoid getting into debate with adversary if we are on weak footing e.g. while doing annual performance reviews of our ``sub-ordinates``.

re. Sadna#124
Your concerns are commendable and shared (correspondingly). However I do not see eye-to-eye with you when you say that ``No Pakistani had been killed by a Hindutva goon, while many Indians have been killed by jihadis.`` This is factual but misses and clouds the point: Your Hindutva goons attack Muslims for their presumed affiliation with the enemy. So, when you say, ``Still Pakistanis whine all the time about Hindutva. India should think seriously of putting these groups to work to restore the balance.``, I dare say that for both the majority of Pakistani as well as the Hindutva sympathizers, that is exactly what Ahemadabad was about.
Sometimes it`s all just a matter of definition.
You mention repeatedly that ``the LeT and JeM are referred to as freedom fighters... by the Paksitani top brass``? Please provide references.
Yes, Pakistani leadership is hypcritical. However, given the direction Indian politics is taking (toward the far religious right), one really feels right-thinking Indians would do well look into the belly of their own beast rather than dismiss others` concerns as whining.
And no, enumerating the lofty achievements of Indian-Americans hardly detracts from this issue, even if Uncle Sam might be more likely to go to bed now with Advani and Co.

re:#129 by ahmadzai
Thanks for your post.
Chowk is a site where Indians and Pakistanis have been interacting for a while. I have been here for more than 2 years (perhaps more) and i have enjoyed it. There is sometimes bad blood but it is to be expected.
The numbers that i have quoted have been quoted by a number of other people. I will leave it at that.
I am glad you feel Pakistan is a proud inheritor of Indus Civilisation. If so, we have no quarrels. Indians do not disown any of that. Gandhara and Indus are as much a part of India`s past as they are of Pakistan`s. The bigger question is: do Pakistanis in general feel the same way? How many people in Pak felt bad when Bamiyan buddhas were destroyed?
If you read my posts, i have tried to distinguish between Islam and Islamic fundamentalism, arguing that the 2 are not synonymous. It is for muslims of the world to convince the rest that Islam is a tolerant religion and the few fundamentalists that we see and hear about are on the fringes. However, i am concerned by the fact that a lot of good people do not protest when bad things happen: things like Daniel Pearl`s murder, murder of christians in churches, training of jehadis in madrassas in Pak who then go to various places to kill and sabotage. I do not see average Pakistanis rise in revolt against these.
I am concerned about what happened in Gujarat. Millions of Indians have said that this (the pogram) was a shameful thing. The Indian press has been very vociferous in its tirade against Modi. The fight against such forces of fundamentalism goes on in India. But there is a lot of hope. There are mechanisms of redressal (free judiciary, free press etc). TV has a larger than life image today. People are very aware of the problem. Many Pakis seem to take a potshot at Gujarat just to embarass Indians. This kind of a thing has been going on and is shameful. It is not going to destroy secularism in India though it is a serious threat. Hindutva as practiced by BJP is a self-defeating philosophy.
You can be justly proud of Pakistanis like the one who designed the Sears towers. Think about how to channelise the vast talent in your country in a fruitful manner. Think how Pakistanis can change the mindset of their rulers and forge a meaningful relationship with India. Only then can there be peace in this part of the world.
Sridhar

ahmedzai #127
Yes, I am referring to the fundamentalist mullahs in Pakistan. No leader in Pakistan has shown any desire to stop them so it is simply a matter of time before they come to power with the help of their sympathisers in the Pakistan Army and Gulf countries. India will do well not to waste its time with the unreliable weaklings and hypocrites in power currently.

#128 by rsridhar:

I registered on this site only a few days back thinking that this is a Pakistani site. But I have noticed that there are many Indians registered on this site with a sole objective of thrashing Pakistan and Muslims. One has to be reasonable when finding faults in others. The only purpose was to draw the attention of angry Indians at their own weaknesses.

The title of the article is ``Is It A War On Islam? ``. My take on this whole tragic event is that it was not a war on Islam to begin with, but Indians, Russians and Israelis have turned it into (or are at least attempting to turn it into) a war on Islam due to their selfish motives. The main reason for India and Israel are the disputed territories of Kashmir and Palestine, the disputed nature of the same being supported by several UN resolutions.

As to your specific pointers to greatness of Indians, hats off to them. I am in absolute admiration of them. However, kindly note few clarifications:

1. The list of high achievers that you have produced has been shredded into smithereens long time back. In case you don`t remember, this list had started with some 500 Indian achievers. When researched, it was found that an over-whelming majority of the list was cooked up. There was no reality in it. Still I salute the remaining Indians on this list for their achievements.

2. The percentage of Indians working in the companies that you have mentioned cannot be compiled. In the USA or any where else in the world, there are no such population characteristics showing Indian employment specifically.

3. As regards history, Pakistan is an heir to the Great Indus Valley Civilization, one of the three most known ancient civilizations of the world. It is an heir to two other ancient civilizations - Buddhism and Gandhara.

4. Pakistan has its own lists of achievements - the most notable being pertnering with the USA in Afghanistan during 80s to help bring the iron curtain down. The free world today owes it to Pakistan. The freed Eastern European countries owe it even more. By wiping out its lone rival through Pakistan, the USA owes it the most. In a way, Indians should be thankful to Pakistan for opening the door to come out of its self-imposed isolation and only dealing with the former USSR.

5. Pakistanis in our own little way have made contributions to the world. I can give you one example. I am sure there are many more. The Sears Tower in Chicago is a standing ovation to a Pakistani Civil Engineer, who had invented the Bundle Tube Method of constructing tall buildings.

6. Token representations to minorities is acceptable. However, you also need to look into your current wave of fundamentalist Hindu nationalism that is targeting religious minorities and weakening a truly beautiful and peaceful Way of Life that is Hinduism.

You are absolutely right in mentioning that we have destroyed our institutions. Do note however, that we realized our follies and made a u-turn very rightfully. Our two problems emanate from (1) minority Mulla back-lash and (2) I believe an intentional anti-Muslim pronouncement in various forms by the USA establishment and media that tend to add fuel to Mulla ranks.

Indians on the other hand, have made a u-turn towards fundamentalism and extremism, the exact path of self-destruction from where Pakistan chose to come out of.

re:#104 by ahmadzai
I would like to reply to your post, which i found offensive. You called Indians uncivilized and you say that is how people from outside India feel. Which people? The Pakis? If it is only Pakis, i am not too concerned. They have been indoctrinated since childhood (you are a living eg) and speak from ignorance.
Indians are uncivilised! You must be kidding.
1. Do you know that in this part of the world, India (other than Israel) is the only functioning democracy for the last 50 years. Recently, India celebrated more than 50 years of uninterrupted Republic, with the ``same`` constituton if force.
2. The only country which has elected minorities to the hightest office from time to time. President of India today is a muslim, defense minister is a christian. Recently, India`s opposition party leader cleared the way for a Dalit to become CM of Maharashtra. India`s last president (K.R. Narayanan) was a Dalit, the so called untouchables. Such a thing was not even imaginable when India became independent.
One of the richest muslim in the world is actually in India. His name is Azim Premji and he heads the Wipro industries. Muslims in Pak have not heard about it as he is not a sunni muslim and does not believe in the kind of ideology that seems popular in Pak.
3. India has world class educational institutions, IITs being just one of them. IIT alumni were recently felicitated in US, an event attended by Bill Gates, among others. IIT in US has become a brand name India is being associated with and we are proud of it.
4. Indians can feel proud that they have a Parliament that enacts laws safeguarding the constitution for 50 years. Recently, India made education of children (6-14 years) compulsory and a fundamental right. This has wide ramifications in future.
http://www.goodnewsindia.com/Pages/content/institutions/parliament.html

5. India is an IT super-power. A lot of R and D facilities for chip design and others are being created by MNCs in India. India is also slowly becoming a knowledge based country where everything from health sector to agriculture is being revamped with new technology. This will take time but it has started to happen.
There are a number of other things that we can be proud of. At a civilizational level, Indians can be justfiably proud to be inheritors of one of the most ancient civilizations the world has seen. This civilization can be seen in its pristine form in South even today. This, despite the 10 centuries of ravages and destruction brought forth by muslim (read Islamic) conquests.
It is this ancient civilisation that has given the world a great spiritual alternative shorn of any overriding control of political or religious zealots. In India alone you can find the kind of spiritual freedom that i call as a kind of ``spiritual free-market``. There are good things and bad things in this free-market but it is there. Is it then surprising that one finds thousands of disgruntled, unhappy people from all over the globe coming to India in search of that elusive peace and enlightenment. It is also this spirituality that has given the world Yoga and Meditation. Today, India does not demand a copyright on these 2. India would be justified to do so if it did.
As a non-resident Indian, i am proud of the fact that:

1. co-founder of Sun Microsystem was Vinod Khosla
2. the creator of Pentium chip (needs no introduction as 90% of the
today`s computers run on it) is Vinod Dham.
3. The founder and creator of Hotmail (a popular e-mail) is Sabeer Bhatia
he president of AT & T-Bell Labs (AT & T-Bell Labs is the creator of program languages such as C, C++, Unix to name a few) is Arun Netravalli
I believe the Chief Executive of CitiBank still is Rajat Gupta and of Mckensey & Stanchart is Victor Menezes, both Indians.
As an Indian living in USA, i am aware that there are 3.22 millions of Indians in USA (1.5% of population). YET, 38% of FMG doctors in USA are Indians. This also includes about 10% scientists n USA, 36% of NASA scientists and 1/3 of Microsoft employees and a quarter of IBM employees. India`s education system has groomed these men in their initial phases.
I am also proud of home grown talents like Narayana Murthy who has showcased Infosys as the greatest success story globally. His company has been showing 30-50% growth despite a global slowdown. But, Narayana Murthy is not just a rich guy. He is also trying to bridge the digital divide between rural and urban India by help starting a ``Shiksha`` mission in partnership with a Boston Consulting Group and with commitments from the Times of India Group, Hewlett Packard, NIIT, Hughes Satellite Systems, Bharti Telecom, Apollo Hospitals, Schools Online, NCERT, SCERT, and the Ministry of Human Resources.
``In India, Shiksha`s vision is to provide a total solution to schools through the 5Cs approach - using computers, connectivity, coaching (teacher training), content and commercial models - with extensive participation from industry, NGOs, education bodies, technology companies and the government.``. Here is an eg of an Industrialist going beyond his call of duty and doing his bit for India. Indians can feel proud that few in developing world today can boast of a Narayana Murthy.
http://www.schoolsonline.org/whoweare/press/shiksha.html

What about Pakistan?
I leave it to Pakis to sort out the mess they are in. We can point out that they are on a wrong path. Pak has no institutions worth the name today. Its only surviving institution, the Army, will ultimately prove to be its nemesis. Read the recent articles coming out of your press (English not Urdu) to know what i mean. Today, Pak can only produce disgruntled mullahs, jihadis and arrogant Army Generals but not top notch scientists, IT workers or a Narayana Murthy.
Sridhar

# 126 by Sadna

``India has to wait a little longer for `true` leadership of Pakistan to take over power. ``

I hope you are not referring to fundamentalist Indian leadership to wait a little longer for its counter-parts in Pakistan (i.e. fundamentalist Mullas) to come to power. I hope you understand that situation would be mutually destructive.

ahmadzai #124
Mr. Jamali is willing to blow himself up? First I am hearing of it.

And JeM and LeT are still referred to as freedom fighters not rightfully as warriors of religion sacrificing their lives to fight infidels, by the Pakistani top brass, who are clearly only stooges of the godless Americans. India has to wait a little longer for `true` leadership of Pakistan to take over power.

#113 Sadna jee:

``I think India talking to `moderate` pimps of Pakistani extremists (often spotted in the so-called liberal circles too) will only bring short term solutions, like paying protection money to extortionists. India should wait till those willing to blow themselves up occupy the highest positions in Pakistan and then deal with them directly.``

Sadna, I don`t think that Indians have to wait for anything. The current political party in power (a moderate) bagged 24% of the votes. Another moderate party PPP bagged 25%. The extreme right wing Islamic parties won 10% of the votes mainly in the NWFP on the agenda of American bashing. Previously, these Islamic parties used to bag not more than 5% of the vote bank. The main reason for Islamic parties to have doubled their vote bank is the news of indiscriminate bombing of American bombers over Afghanistan, mostly in Pakhtoon areas, which e.g. killed attenders of a marriage ceremoney, that they used for electioneering.

Now compare this situation with India. There, you have secularism, yet you have elected to power a fundamentalist and extremist political party who has atleast two leaders in the forefront who had lead a march on Babri Mosque, bringing it down and leading to Bombay riots that resulted in the deaths of thousands of Muslims. In addition, now your extremist leaders in power are about to repeat their political agenda of Muslim bashing of Gujrat in other states to win there in forthcoming elections.

Also, please note that under the patronage of your fanatic Government in power, violent nationalist have killed Christian priests and I recall one incident where a priest and his two sons were burn alive.

Sadna, it pays to look inwards some times and to see the inherent flaws before pointing fingers at others.

I would like all the Indians to note that at least Pakistanis had the courage to look inwards and make a U-Turn from giving into fundamentalists. However, we have a backlash from these fundamentalists.

In India, you have made a U-Turn to give into the demands of fundamentalists and are increasingly cherishing your association with them.

PM #122
No, killings are killings and killing compatriots and winning an election based on that is much worse. I care more for the implications of Hindutva groups in Indian democracy than for implications of jihad on Pakistani Islam or impications of jihad on Indian relations with Pakistan. SO for me Ahmedabad is much mch worse than anything in Kashmir.

The issue here is one of Pakistani hypocrisy. Either its bad to teach people to kill those designated kafirs(either the NAlliance, or the Soviets or Indians) or its not. Pakistanis have not been able to decide which for the last 20 years. No Pakistani had been killed by a Hindutva goon, while many Indians have been killed by jihadis. Still Pakistanis whine all the time about Hindutva. India should think seriously of putting these groups to work to restore the balance.

re. #120 by sadna
Good idea, Sadnaji! With some quid pro quo and better luck we`d get rid of some of the REAL culprits on both sides AND keep helpless innocents from being torched in their homes en bloc. Would probably test the mettle of our respective extremists too, no? After all, you do agree that Ahmedabad, like Kashmir was all too easy, don`t you?
Oh wait a minute... NOW I get it... Slaughter of one`s compatriots is qualitiatively differnt from killing only quasi-compatriots, right?

re. #118 by arjun_m
``Exactly what Kasuri is doing in the US...``
Hey! This was personal.. please don`t bring in Kasuri. In any case, at least he, like those on `your` side known to have been frantically ``gyrating their hips`` to Uncle Sam back in late `01, are doing their job in the `national interest`. What`s YOUR excuse for prostrating?

PM #117
Since Pakistanis are anyway creating such a hullabaloo about these hindutva groups, perhaps India out to send these cadres over the border and get ourselves some real benefit for this Pakistani noise. Perhaps the President`s palace at Islamabad is a good place to start, or the National Assembly.

re. #110 GhalibZaman
``The focus is more on Brazil & spain where the re-conversion & rediscovery is an absolutely new phenomena in human history.``
New? hmmm.. maybe you`re right, but I`d be happier to see folks discover religion for themselves rather than choose one as a reaction. What is to stop the next generation wanting to dig further back in history. Maybe we should all end up animists, huh?

``It is nevertheless fascinating that religion, any religion, is `in` and communism, atheism, secularism ( modern heathens/pagans) and all kind of -isms are no longer peddling their wares with impunity & arrogance.``

Well, don`t forget how most religion was spread in the first place. Religion certrainly has its share of dirty, bloody wars and dishonorable conversions (either at the sword`s tip or by playing the food-for-prosletysing game). Hardly traditions to be proud of.

Me? I`ll probably be around to watch the shoe go on to the other foot in a generation or two.

rgds,
PM

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re. #111 by arjun_m on January 23, 2003 7:53am PT

``Unlike the LeT, the RSS wasn`t created and nurtured as part of state policy.``

Gee I feel SOO much better knowing that it wasn`t the Indian state, just the Gujrat government, that abetted the wholesale slaughter of Muslims last year! In fact, I feel even better knowing it`s the same political party that has it`s coffers filled by `educated` overseas Indians.

``The LeT has been declared a terrorist organization by the US....but you knew that already, right?``

Oh yeah.. almost forgot that one. Remind me to tell that to the families the 100,000-odd Iraqis who lost their lives in the ``war against Saddam Hussien [only]``. Gotta help keep folks abreast of the terrorist roster, don`t we!

Hey, do write when you`re done doing puja to Uncle Sam.

ahmadzai #107

Exactly why negotiating with Pakistan (where you say unnumbered people are willing to blow themselves up), will improve Indian lives is not clear. Can you clarify?

I think India talking to `moderate` pimps of Pakistani extremists (often spotted in the so-called liberal circles too) will only bring short term solutions, like paying protection money to extortionists. India should wait till those willing to blow themselves up occupy the highest positions in Pakistan and then deal with them directly.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


#111 by arjun_m on January 23, 2003 7:53am PT
#105 by PM on January 23, 2003 5:25am PT

++
The role of the Bajrang Dal or the RSS is not much different from the role of the Sipah-i-Sahaba or the Lashkar-i-Tayyaba...
++

Unlike the LeT, the RSS wasn`t created and nurtured as part of state policy.

The LeT has been declared a terrorist organization by the US....but you knew that already, right?
-----------------------------------------

Hindu Mahasabha ,Jan Sangh ,Bjp ,Rss,VHP,RSS,Shiv Sena ,Bajrang Dal ,


are only multiple Nick of the Same H Y D R A ..SANGHI PARIVAR .THey all are to shift blame & not all dirty there hands in discriminating against INDIAN MINORITIES .WHILE ENTERTAINING FOREIGNERS AS `PARVASI `and reserving `Par vaanshi` ONLY for HINDUS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.I WAS BORN IN INDIA



YES U.S.A. hasnt declared Rss etc. a terrorist b/c it is not AGAINST u.s.a. in particular but INTERNALLY within Indian govt.Domain

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#92:PM
That paragraph could have been removed but then it would`nt have been proper. The focus is more on Brazil & spain where the re-conversion & rediscovery is an absolutely new phenomena in human history.

It is nevertheless fascinating that religion, any religion, is `in` and communism, atheism, secularism ( modern heathens/pagans) and all kind of -isms are no longer peddling their wares with impunity & arrogance.

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Ahmadzai:

``Hence, Mr. Haas’ advice to Indians to start the process of dialogue with Pakistan without any pre-conditions. This is an advice that India would be better off heeding to in order to be part of the civilized societies. ``

So what do we talk about? There is no point talking about economic cooperation because Pakistan wants Kashmir to be on the agenda. There is no point talking about Kashmir because there is no common vision for a solution. There is no question of transferring territory to Pakistan, and any other solution is not acceptable to it.

As far as uncoventional war is concerned, if the federal control of Islamabad weakens to the extent that we start getting a full flow of Mullahs, then the answer is war. What other choice do we have? Your losing control of your own population is your problem, not ours. As far as the Mullah led Islamists are concerned, what Rashid Dostum did to them is child`s play compared to what we can do to them.

Interesting article here:
http://www.dawn.com/2003/01/23/op.htm#1
Fundamentalism in the Sub-continent
The violent campaign against Muslims in India and targeted killing of minorities in Pakistan appear today to enjoy ideological sanction. Parallel organizations of Hindus and Muslims are helping each other in promoting hatred between communities. The role of the Bajrang Dal or the RSS is not much different from the role of the Sipah-i-Sahaba or the Lashkar-i-Tayyaba...

also, check out http://www.dawn.com/2003/01/23/op.htm#3
``Why the West is Losing the War``

Brilliant, Pervez. And dead on - excuse the pun.

I do think that what is required is not just a lot of peace rallies but a sytematic unveiling of the federal/coporate liars and criminals and colluders with imperialist ambitions spread across western states. Only when these perpatrators of destruction and their ambitions are laid bare (as this article does) can there be a chance for peace. The peace movement must spread the facts and the truth.

#97 by arjun_m

``And they are not doing that now? You obviously aren`t part of the 0.001 percentage of pakis who know that ``moral and diplomatic support`` is a joke and pakiland sends terrorists into India every chance it gets.... ``

That is my point. If according to Indians, a small number of ``Jihadis`` entering into India has brought such a havoc there then just imagine what an unrestrained flow of such people can do under no state authority. Btw, I grew up in the NWFP. I know the destructive power of the Mullah lead ``islamist``. On one call of the Mullah, they will be more than willing to tie up explosives on their bodies and unleash a very `Unconventional war on India``. I hope you get the message.

That is one reason, I would request the Indian leadership to grab this opportunity, get into dialouge with the moderate leadership of Pakistan under a moderate PM from Balochistan, and negotiate all the differences to give all of us Sub-Conties a fair chance to live a better life.

But perhaps this is too much to expect from the current fundamentalist and extremist Government in India.

Reference #101 by harimau

``Civilized countries do not declare they were ready to nuke their neighbors. Civilized countries do not cry, ``Restrain me before I use my nukes.`` Civilized countries do not poke their noses in other people`s affairs as in Chechnya, Bosnia or Kosovo. Or, Kashmir. Anytime any Indian thinks he needs to heed the advice of a Pakistani on talks with Pakistan, he needs to lie down until the thought goes away. Persistent symptoms need medical intervention. ``

I regret using the phrase ``civilized societies``. Admittedly, it was uncalled for. However, I would like harimau to look at why a person from outside of India would term it an uncivilized society.

1. India is a nuclear power, yet its belligerence knows no bounds. As a nuclear power it was totally uncivilized and irrisponsible on part of its leadership to depoly its armed forces in a combative posture against another nuclear power. Furthermore, the if India was a civilized society, pro-peace citizens would not have been marginalized during that confrontation.

2. Indian leadership is continuously talking about wiping out Pakistan from surface of the earth. Again, highly uncivilized and tribal in essence.

3. As an act of gross human rights violations, Indian army has killed 70,000 innocent Kashmiris during the last 10 years, about 200,000 Christians in its northeastern states, mostly in custody and fake encounters. Furthermore, they killed about 40,000 Sikhs in the 1980s. All these crimes against minorities are recorded.

4. Very recently an incident like the organized pogrom of Muslims of Gujrat, blamed by human right organizations on the State Government, has not been witnessed anywhere in Pakistan.

5. One more reason is the treatment meted out to the lower caste Hindu population, who are treated as slaves even in this age of education and advancement. The lower castes, known as Dalits took their case to the United Nations Conference on Racism held in Durban in 2001.

6. Another social area is dowry related deaths in India. (However, in Pakistan, we have tried to match this with honor killings).

Due to their preoccupation with WOT, the USA and the West have tended to condone India on these gross human rights violations, which actually have gained momentum.

However, my apologies for any hurt feelings. In retrospection, I think that both India and Pakistan need to act like civilized societies.

re. AmericanExpress #98
``Some more Yada Yada Yada ...writers get paid for writing so they will write even when they are brain dead .... THEN WHY INDIA IS IN LINE FOR REGISTRATION AFTER PAKISTAN IN APRIL _MAY S SOON AS AFTER THE PRESENT BATCH??????``

Not that the question has anything to do with the point the letter-writer (NOT a writer, per se) made, but since you asked, well, I`m guessing it has something to do with India`s having a 14-odd crore Muslim population (with apologies to all right-thinking Muslims).

``To lick the Americas feet they can justify breathing carbon dioxide instead of oxygen EVEN by some twisted imagination.....after all who checks these theories or LIES as i like to think of them so i dont even have to check them & mostly i am right !``

I don`t know what theories (or LIES) you are referring to. Please elaborate.

``The fact is that the world is now afraid of us.``

No?!?!

`` In the 60s and 70s, Pakistan gave its best economists, professors, engineers and scientists to the US.``
Yeah.. I remember the time... Pakistan was churning out world-class professionals in these disciplines from the Karachi and Punjab Universities and offering them oh so selflessly to Uncle Sam to prop up his flagging economy. yeah... those bloody ingrate Yanks!

``Generally, Pakistanis were respected by Americans then.``

Sonny... get yourself enrolled in a Realpolitik 101 course, will ya!

``But in the 80s, we started exporting Ramzis, Kansis, Abu Zubaydas and Abu Hamzas. ``

So you`re agreeing with the letter-writer after all, eh? Good, then. Let`s move on...

rgds,
PM

re. GhalibZaman #92:
I`d be interested to know what you foudn so ``fascinating`` in the paragraph beloiw, which IMO is the gist of the article you posted. Sounds to me like you`re advocating prosletyzing-by-prostitution:

``Well, it is happening again. Since the early 1970s, population explosion has increased the stress on the land and the misery of the people in Chiapas. After the assault of missionaries beginning with Dominican monks 500 years ago, there has been a succession of Presbyterians, Pentecostals, evangelical preachers, left-wing Roman Catholic priests (Liberation Theology) and Mormons. Now there are Muslim missionaries from Spain, gaining converts from among the thousands of evangelical Christians who were converted 45 years ago. There has been such competition among the rival sects that people convert and reconvert, looking for the best deal. Now Islam is coming in with a message and with money.``

Ref Donkey Express #98

[THEN WHY INDIA IS IN LINE FOR REGISTRATION AFTER PAKISTAN IN APRIL _MAY S SOON AS AFTER THE PRESENT BATCH??????

To lick the Americas feet they can justify breathing carbon dioxide instead of oxygen EVEN by some twisted imagination.....after all who checks these theories or LIES as i like to think of them so i dont even have to check them & mostly i am right !]

Are we to understand that you are selling your Studebaker and moving to the Belly of the Beast (India) or do you plan to continue licking the Americas feet they can justify breathing carbon dioxide instead of oxygen EVEN by some twisted imagination?

Such a complete Namak Haram I haven`t seen in my life.

If you have so much contempt for the US (and India), what prevents you from moving to al-Arabia as-Saudia?

Ref ahmadzai #96

[Americans need moderate and democratic Islamic countries like Pakistan to be role models for other Muslim countries. Hence, Mr. Haas’ advice to Indians to start the process of dialogue with Pakistan without any pre-conditions. This is an advice that India would be better off heeding to in order to be part of the civilized societies.]

Civilized countries do not declare they were ready to nuke their neighbors. Civilized countries do not cry, ``Restrain me before I use my nukes.`` Civilized countries do not poke their noses in other people`s affairs as in Chechnya, Bosnia or Kosovo. Or, Kashmir.

Anytime any Indian thinks he needs to heed the advice of a Pakistani on talks with Pakistan, he needs to lie down until the thought goes away. Persistent symptoms need medical intervention.

I would consider the Illegal Indians, Pakistanis, and all thirdwolders at par with the ``Poineers`` of America a hundred years and earlier. :)

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In response to # 94 Veeresh`s article in response to an article, I have to say the following:

1. He should recall that after 9/11 the joint front of 29 parties supporting Talibans was not able to gather more than 20,000 protestors at the peak of emotionalism and only 4,000 protestors turned up towards the latter part. The front was in such a weak state subsequently that the Government was arresting its leaders at will and putting them behind bars for indulging in violence, vandalism and inciting the feelings of people through emotional speeches. The small number of protestors were also aided by Western media unintentionally. CNN and BBC continuously reported curtailed protests using close-ranged videoizing, which is a camera trick to project small crowds as massive ones. However, this fuel on the fire attempt was thwarted by