Is It A War On Islam?

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I would like to draw the attention of arjun_m to the following links:

http://www.ieer.org/comments/dsmt/kashhist.html

This link talks about Kashmir`s piece of land conquered by China from India (Aksai Chin).

http://asia.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/east/05/24/aksai.chin/

This CNN link gives a more historical and factual position about areas and geographical features of the land.

http://www.indianexpress.com/ie/daily/19980718/19950254.html

This link gives an account of a press conference of Chinese Ambassador to India in 1998. Specifically note the following statement by the Ambassador:

``He also referred to the Sino-Pakistani 1963 Boundary Agreement (``between two sovereign states``) which stipulated that after India and Pakistan had settled its Kashmir dispute,China and Pakistan would formalise the cession of territory. ``(This) has no bearing on the ownership of Kashmir,`` the ambassador added.``

arjun_m is requested to kindly note the written contract between two moral states - Pakistan and China.

To Arjun_M`s other concerns:

1. General Musharraf has made major reforms and is backed by a majority of Pakistanis. If we look at the recently concluded elections then in percentage terms the following back General Musharraf`s reform policies (although some of them may not support his political agenda):

1. 24% votes of PML (Q)
2. 25% votes of PPP P
3. 5-8% votes of GNA and MQM

The present coalition Government had bagged 29-32% of the votes.

2. Pakistan was in isolation till some time ago, but has come out of it subsequent to 9/11. At present, we have improved relations with Afghanistan, Iran, Central Asian Republics and China. However, I admit that if we are not able to control MMA (Islamic parties, who had obtained 10% of the votes) from over-playing thrash America agenda this will lead us into trouble again. There is a problem though. The MMA gets its energy from anti-Americanism (Surprisingly, not anti-Indianism). The more American Government makes overt and covert attacks on Islam and Muslims, the more it adds to MMA`s support base. American Government`s inept approach to WOT is increasing hate America feelings all over the world. In democratic set-ups, it is just showing up more in Pakistan and Turkey than in any other Muslim country.

3. The recent pronouncements of American ambassadors in India and Pakistan are attributed to forcing Pakistan into supporting American war on Iraq. Another Muslim country that, according to Eric Margolis, is being pressurised by the USA Government is Turkey - through stick and carrot approach. For Pakistan, the sensitivity revolves around plebiscite for Kashmiris, nuclear arms, WOT, etc. For Turkey, it is Kurds, EU, oilfields of eastern Iraq, etc. USA Government is twisting the arms of these two countries around the fulcrums of these sensitive issues to get support on its Iraq`s agenda.

4. If former Talibani repentants are in Pakistan then they cannot be easily traced. They looked like us and there is no way of identifying them from their physical features. If a person with proven links to Talibans or Al Qaida is apprehended, he is handed over to the Coalition forces immediately.

re. arjun_m#143 & #142:
``Uncle Sam carries the biggest stick...therefore, his yardstick is the worlds yardstick...``
For the spineless, yes.

``Moral strength only results in moral victories..real victories require real strength. ``

hmm... so there can be `real` victories that are all the same immoral? Interesting! Guess those of us that didn`t go to the Bush School of International Relations missed the sublime truth in that proposition.

``And Pakistans position isn`t exactly mora...``
Pakistan`s position is moral. Its actions may be terribly immoral, which doesn`t help its position.

Can u tell me the population and size of the land Pakistan gifted to China? Then perhaps we can come to a judgement on the morality of the issue.

re. #148 by sadna
Pray tell, now, which part of ``TNT [was] perhaps originally nothing more than a bluff`` didn`t you get?

However you seem curiosly to miss the point. TNT is revived every time a Muslim/Christian/Hindu is killed for belonging to a certain religion. ESPECIALLY when the state sponsors or aquiesces to it.

Perhaps you would like to obfuscate this simple matter again, which was the point of my oringial post.

``Indian Muslims are Indians just like me.`` True. Now convince your saffron-tinged compatriots of the same THEN come back and make your case of TNT being totally hogwash. While you`re at it, perhaps you will take the time to explain why the Gujarat and Central governments chose to treat THOSE Indians-- `just like you` and all -- so differently from how they might have treated you. THEN come back and chastise all us `full-of-it Paksitanis` for being terrorist supporters, hypocrites and whatever else you can possibly imagine. There is only so much of obfuscation and whining one can take in a week.

Also, nice of you to have lumped my posts with the ``chowk and the Pakistani press`` in general. Perhaps next time you will take the trouble to show exactly where I have been contradictory.

#145 by arjun_m

You wrote:

``1. Here`s how it works. A free press reports. The people read what the press reports and vote accordingly. The government elected is now more likely to act according to the wishes of the people. In Pakistan, the wishes of the people don`t mean doodly squat....The paki army makes policy...I don`t think there can be any dispute in this regard. Even when Nawaz was greeting Vajpayee in Lahore, the Paki army was planning Kargil... The press can ``try to open the eyes yada yada`` all year long but the elected politicians have almost no leeway in making policy. If the army decides LoC = international border, that`s the way its going to be. ``

My response:

If the government elected is now more likely to act according to the wishes of the people then it means that the killings of Muslims, Sikhs and Christians in India orchestrated by an elected Government has the blessing of the entire Hindus, that all Hindus of India are extremists and fundamentalists. Fine, I am not willing to accept that, but if you insist...

Also tell me whether at the moment, the American far right Government is acting according to the wishes of the majority of Americans.

My friend, on several occasions people have no say in the policy formulations after they have elected their reps to the House. It is hoped that the elected Government would make decisions in accordance with the desires of the people, but this seldom happens.

You wrote:

``3. So where was the morality when you gave it away? Are you saying Pakistans position is moral because sometime in the future the land will go back to the Kashmiris...that too if China agrees...And China has high moral standards? Are you frikking kidding me? Do you live in some alternate universe where Anna Nicole Smith isn`t fat as a pig, the redskins reach the playoffs, Pakistan has a moral stand and China has high moral standards? ``

My response:

I do not know the reason of so much anger behind your responses. You show abundance of anger everywhere, which shows that you have no strong point, except that you are irritated at seeing how Pakistanis and Kashmiris have embarrassed Indians in their hearts.

All I am saying is that when UN talks about Kashmir as land, it automatically assumes that Chinese adminsitered Kashmir will be part of it. Btw, why bring in non-issues? If you are on a strong footing, why not let Kashmiris decide their fate through plebiscite? Why are you diverting attention to a desolate waste of 10,000 sq kms of land, which in any case will be part of plebiscite.

This also proves one point: Whereas Pakistanis talk about poeple of Kashmir, their rights of self-determination, their killings at the hands of Indian occupation forces, Indians talk only about Kashmir as a piece of land - ``Attoot Ung, Kashmir will not be allowed to part with India because it will set the pattern of disintegration of India, etc``.

You wrote:

``4. The two are inextricable linked. Who is doing the fighting for Pakistan in Kahsmir? The islamic fundamentalists who are armed and trained by the Pakistani army....weaponized militant Islam if you will...How do you ensure an endless supply of islamic fundamentalists willing to die? you radicalize your own society and fan the flames of religion. If, by some miracle, Pakistan were to be a moderate state tomorrow, the supply of islamic fundamentalists would dry up and Pakistan would be back to square one...having to take on India if it really wants to ``liberate`` Kashmir...we all know that the pakistani army isn`t about to fight India mano e mano ..The option of using the islamic jihadis has come to bite back Pakistan in the rear... ``

My response:

In an article, M. J. Akbar of India had written that in order to pressurise India, Pakistan had no choice but to start Jihad in Kashmir for without it Indian Government would never be constrained into letting UN plebiscite take place.

However, more importantly, it was your extremist, fundamentalist Government itself which while attempting a cease fire with Hizbe Mujahideen (the Kashmiri indegenous group) some times in 2000, had said that HM was the biggest rebel group of Kashmiris and consisted of Kashmiris themselves. Point is that the major resistance is being carried out by HM and this has been admitted by Indian Government itself.

Another point to note is why India cannot stop ``cross-border infilteration`` with so much of armed patroling on its side of LOC and blames Pakistan for sending ``terrorist`` into India. tell me why India is eschewing from letting neutral observers stationed on both sides of LOC.

Also tell me that whether rebellion in 7 Indian northeastern state is also carried out by Islamic Fundamentalist Jihadis?

PM #140
``Pray tell where have you found instances of such contradition? ``

On chowk, in the Pakistani press, in your own post.

````If Pakistanis think TNT is still valid, what are Indian Muslims still doing in India?``

Ask them. Many of them still believe (with some justification) of the possibility of a secular democracy. ``

Indian Muslims are Indians just like me. I don`t have to ask them. I am asking Pakistanis, if they believe in TNT and that Hindus and Muslims cannot live in one nation, why doesnot Pakistan allow Indian Muslims to migrate to the land of TNT ? Hindus will always exist, unfortunately for Muslims, and some of them will always be extremists, GASP just like extremists have always existed among Muslims.

``But woe be unto you should you petition the growing leagues of the saffron brigade for the same answer!``

PM, just because you are a full-of-it-Pakistani just like the rest doesnot mean that you can speak for what I do or donot petition, even on chowk, much less elsewhere.

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My suggestions to arjun_m`s various responses to my posts:

1. The newspaper article that has been quoted actually proves my point to rsridhar that in Pakistan press is much more free and has been trying to open the eyes of average Pakistanis and our rulers to how the contemporary world `perceives` our Kashmir aspirations and actions to achieve them. But do remember that perceptions and fact/reality are two different things.

2. One has to understand that the world is not going to side with Pakistan on moral grounds only, because economy counts. Its a fact that the economy of India and its size offers attractive propositions to the world than Pakistan`s. Moreover, it has been India`s victory on propaganda front. Thirdly, the Muslims all across the world are at receiving end subsequent to 9/11. However, if you study the historical commitments of Mountbatten and even the earlier Indian leaders, you will note that Pakistan is on a much higher moral padestal on Kashmir, compared to India.

3. The 10,000 sq. km of Kashmir`s portion handed over to China will have to rejoin the main Kashmir once the two countries agree to hold plebiscite in Kashmir in accordance with the UN resolutions. The UN resolutions talk about all Kashmiris (including displaced Hindu Pundits and Muslims living in diaspora) and all its landmass. China`s administered Kashmir is included by default. I don`t think that China with its high moral standards will not abide by the requirements of the resolutions.

4. ``Uncle Sam carries the biggest stick...therefore, his yardstick is the worlds yardstick``. I agree with you 100% and therefore, my advice to Pakistanis at this point is to be with the might. They were with the might when they were fighting in Afghanistan alongside Afghans against former Soviet Union, in Bosnia, in Somalia, etc. Pakistan should be a democratic liberal Islamic state that is a role model for other Muslim countries. A Mulla (MMA) led Pakistan would lead us to destruction and no where else. Pakistanis should be able to wait for Kashmiris to join them just like Chinese waited over 100 years for HK, MQ to join them. There is no need for haste.

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re. sadna#138:
``I find it strange that Pakistanis talk as if when Pakistanis believe in TNT thats good and a reflection of their humanity, but when Hindus believe in TNT( Hindutva-vadis), thats bad and a reflection of their inhumanity.``

I WOULD find it strange too. Pray tell where have you found instances of such contradition?

``Pakistanis have to be incredibly stupid(or incredibly bigotted) to barefacedly support these double standards and hypocrisy day after day.``

Yes, somewhat like anyone -- not just Indians! -- would have to be consummately idiotic to see such gremlins where there are none.

``If Pakistanis think TNT is still valid, what are Indian Muslims still doing in India?``

Ask them. Many of them still believe (with some justification) of the possibility of a secular democracy. But woe be unto you should you petition the growing leagues of the saffron brigade for the same answer! NOW do u get my point? Let me spell it out... Hindu goons are aplenty to insure the idea of TNT --perhaps originally nothing more than a bluff-- remains a reality--no matter what you, I or the victims of communalism on any side of the border may wish!

`` Pakistani concern for Indian Muslims is limited to rejoicing when they are killed (`thank God we have Pakistan`)``
Gee you`re strange, to say the least, when you`re angry!

``... and pushing TNT into Hindus faces at every opportunity (10 years of killing fields of jihad and `unfinished business of Partition`)...``

Would you be so dishonest as to deny that there exist UN resolution 244 and another whose number I cannot recall? I`d pretty much call that unfinished business. And it has nothing to do with my hailing from this side of the border.

``... without putting their money where their mouth is (if TNT is valid what are Indian Muslims still doing in India?``

Lately, suffering increasing state-sponsored persecution. Or maybe you`re disingenuous enought to be suggesting that 140 million folks can up and leave and be assimilated elsewhere. You tell me! Don`t try explaining the inherent problems in such an exodus to the RSS. They probably wouldn`t care, you see.

re. arjun_m#138:
``#132 by ahmadzai... What`s that you were saying about the ``weakness`` of India`s position on Kashmir?``
I believe the gentleman was referring to the moral weakness- something you might have difficulty seeing given your propensity to measure the ethics of all things by the yardstick Uncle Sam uses.
Now, sadna, to save on another tirade, let me paraphrase an adage: one wrong doesn`t make the other right. Comprende?