Is It A War On Islam?

re. #110 GhalibZaman
``The focus is more on Brazil & spain where the re-conversion & rediscovery is an absolutely new phenomena in human history.``
New? hmmm.. maybe you`re right, but I`d be happier to see folks discover religion for themselves rather than choose one as a reaction. What is to stop the next generation wanting to dig further back in history. Maybe we should all end up animists, huh?

``It is nevertheless fascinating that religion, any religion, is `in` and communism, atheism, secularism ( modern heathens/pagans) and all kind of -isms are no longer peddling their wares with impunity & arrogance.``

Well, don`t forget how most religion was spread in the first place. Religion certrainly has its share of dirty, bloody wars and dishonorable conversions (either at the sword`s tip or by playing the food-for-prosletysing game). Hardly traditions to be proud of.

Me? I`ll probably be around to watch the shoe go on to the other foot in a generation or two.

rgds,
PM

PM #117
Since Pakistanis are anyway creating such a hullabaloo about these hindutva groups, perhaps India out to send these cadres over the border and get ourselves some real benefit for this Pakistani noise. Perhaps the President`s palace at Islamabad is a good place to start, or the National Assembly.

re. #118 by arjun_m
``Exactly what Kasuri is doing in the US...``
Hey! This was personal.. please don`t bring in Kasuri. In any case, at least he, like those on `your` side known to have been frantically ``gyrating their hips`` to Uncle Sam back in late `01, are doing their job in the `national interest`. What`s YOUR excuse for prostrating?

re. #120 by sadna
Good idea, Sadnaji! With some quid pro quo and better luck we`d get rid of some of the REAL culprits on both sides AND keep helpless innocents from being torched in their homes en bloc. Would probably test the mettle of our respective extremists too, no? After all, you do agree that Ahmedabad, like Kashmir was all too easy, don`t you?
Oh wait a minute... NOW I get it... Slaughter of one`s compatriots is qualitiatively differnt from killing only quasi-compatriots, right?

PM #122
No, killings are killings and killing compatriots and winning an election based on that is much worse. I care more for the implications of Hindutva groups in Indian democracy than for implications of jihad on Pakistani Islam or impications of jihad on Indian relations with Pakistan. SO for me Ahmedabad is much mch worse than anything in Kashmir.

The issue here is one of Pakistani hypocrisy. Either its bad to teach people to kill those designated kafirs(either the NAlliance, or the Soviets or Indians) or its not. Pakistanis have not been able to decide which for the last 20 years. No Pakistani had been killed by a Hindutva goon, while many Indians have been killed by jihadis. Still Pakistanis whine all the time about Hindutva. India should think seriously of putting these groups to work to restore the balance.

#113 Sadna jee:

``I think India talking to `moderate` pimps of Pakistani extremists (often spotted in the so-called liberal circles too) will only bring short term solutions, like paying protection money to extortionists. India should wait till those willing to blow themselves up occupy the highest positions in Pakistan and then deal with them directly.``

Sadna, I don`t think that Indians have to wait for anything. The current political party in power (a moderate) bagged 24% of the votes. Another moderate party PPP bagged 25%. The extreme right wing Islamic parties won 10% of the votes mainly in the NWFP on the agenda of American bashing. Previously, these Islamic parties used to bag not more than 5% of the vote bank. The main reason for Islamic parties to have doubled their vote bank is the news of indiscriminate bombing of American bombers over Afghanistan, mostly in Pakhtoon areas, which e.g. killed attenders of a marriage ceremoney, that they used for electioneering.

Now compare this situation with India. There, you have secularism, yet you have elected to power a fundamentalist and extremist political party who has atleast two leaders in the forefront who had lead a march on Babri Mosque, bringing it down and leading to Bombay riots that resulted in the deaths of thousands of Muslims. In addition, now your extremist leaders in power are about to repeat their political agenda of Muslim bashing of Gujrat in other states to win there in forthcoming elections.

Also, please note that under the patronage of your fanatic Government in power, violent nationalist have killed Christian priests and I recall one incident where a priest and his two sons were burn alive.

Sadna, it pays to look inwards some times and to see the inherent flaws before pointing fingers at others.

I would like all the Indians to note that at least Pakistanis had the courage to look inwards and make a U-Turn from giving into fundamentalists. However, we have a backlash from these fundamentalists.

In India, you have made a U-Turn to give into the demands of fundamentalists and are increasingly cherishing your association with them.

ahmadzai #124
Mr. Jamali is willing to blow himself up? First I am hearing of it.

And JeM and LeT are still referred to as freedom fighters not rightfully as warriors of religion sacrificing their lives to fight infidels, by the Pakistani top brass, who are clearly only stooges of the godless Americans. India has to wait a little longer for `true` leadership of Pakistan to take over power.

# 126 by Sadna

``India has to wait a little longer for `true` leadership of Pakistan to take over power. ``

I hope you are not referring to fundamentalist Indian leadership to wait a little longer for its counter-parts in Pakistan (i.e. fundamentalist Mullas) to come to power. I hope you understand that situation would be mutually destructive.

re:#104 by ahmadzai
I would like to reply to your post, which i found offensive. You called Indians uncivilized and you say that is how people from outside India feel. Which people? The Pakis? If it is only Pakis, i am not too concerned. They have been indoctrinated since childhood (you are a living eg) and speak from ignorance.
Indians are uncivilised! You must be kidding.
1. Do you know that in this part of the world, India (other than Israel) is the only functioning democracy for the last 50 years. Recently, India celebrated more than 50 years of uninterrupted Republic, with the ``same`` constituton if force.
2. The only country which has elected minorities to the hightest office from time to time. President of India today is a muslim, defense minister is a christian. Recently, India`s opposition party leader cleared the way for a Dalit to become CM of Maharashtra. India`s last president (K.R. Narayanan) was a Dalit, the so called untouchables. Such a thing was not even imaginable when India became independent.
One of the richest muslim in the world is actually in India. His name is Azim Premji and he heads the Wipro industries. Muslims in Pak have not heard about it as he is not a sunni muslim and does not believe in the kind of ideology that seems popular in Pak.
3. India has world class educational institutions, IITs being just one of them. IIT alumni were recently felicitated in US, an event attended by Bill Gates, among others. IIT in US has become a brand name India is being associated with and we are proud of it.
4. Indians can feel proud that they have a Parliament that enacts laws safeguarding the constitution for 50 years. Recently, India made education of children (6-14 years) compulsory and a fundamental right. This has wide ramifications in future.
http://www.goodnewsindia.com/Pages/content/institutions/parliament.html

5. India is an IT super-power. A lot of R and D facilities for chip design and others are being created by MNCs in India. India is also slowly becoming a knowledge based country where everything from health sector to agriculture is being revamped with new technology. This will take time but it has started to happen.
There are a number of other things that we can be proud of. At a civilizational level, Indians can be justfiably proud to be inheritors of one of the most ancient civilizations the world has seen. This civilization can be seen in its pristine form in South even today. This, despite the 10 centuries of ravages and destruction brought forth by muslim (read Islamic) conquests.
It is this ancient civilisation that has given the world a great spiritual alternative shorn of any overriding control of political or religious zealots. In India alone you can find the kind of spiritual freedom that i call as a kind of ``spiritual free-market``. There are good things and bad things in this free-market but it is there. Is it then surprising that one finds thousands of disgruntled, unhappy people from all over the globe coming to India in search of that elusive peace and enlightenment. It is also this spirituality that has given the world Yoga and Meditation. Today, India does not demand a copyright on these 2. India would be justified to do so if it did.
As a non-resident Indian, i am proud of the fact that:

1. co-founder of Sun Microsystem was Vinod Khosla
2. the creator of Pentium chip (needs no introduction as 90% of the
today`s computers run on it) is Vinod Dham.
3. The founder and creator of Hotmail (a popular e-mail) is Sabeer Bhatia
he president of AT & T-Bell Labs (AT & T-Bell Labs is the creator of program languages such as C, C++, Unix to name a few) is Arun Netravalli
I believe the Chief Executive of CitiBank still is Rajat Gupta and of Mckensey & Stanchart is Victor Menezes, both Indians.
As an Indian living in USA, i am aware that there are 3.22 millions of Indians in USA (1.5% of population). YET, 38% of FMG doctors in USA are Indians. This also includes about 10% scientists n USA, 36% of NASA scientists and 1/3 of Microsoft employees and a quarter of IBM employees. India`s education system has groomed these men in their initial phases.
I am also proud of home grown talents like Narayana Murthy who has showcased Infosys as the greatest success story globally. His company has been showing 30-50% growth despite a global slowdown. But, Narayana Murthy is not just a rich guy. He is also trying to bridge the digital divide between rural and urban India by help starting a ``Shiksha`` mission in partnership with a Boston Consulting Group and with commitments from the Times of India Group, Hewlett Packard, NIIT, Hughes Satellite Systems, Bharti Telecom, Apollo Hospitals, Schools Online, NCERT, SCERT, and the Ministry of Human Resources.
``In India, Shiksha`s vision is to provide a total solution to schools through the 5Cs approach - using computers, connectivity, coaching (teacher training), content and commercial models - with extensive participation from industry, NGOs, education bodies, technology companies and the government.``. Here is an eg of an Industrialist going beyond his call of duty and doing his bit for India. Indians can feel proud that few in developing world today can boast of a Narayana Murthy.
http://www.schoolsonline.org/whoweare/press/shiksha.html

What about Pakistan?
I leave it to Pakis to sort out the mess they are in. We can point out that they are on a wrong path. Pak has no institutions worth the name today. Its only surviving institution, the Army, will ultimately prove to be its nemesis. Read the recent articles coming out of your press (English not Urdu) to know what i mean. Today, Pak can only produce disgruntled mullahs, jihadis and arrogant Army Generals but not top notch scientists, IT workers or a Narayana Murthy.
Sridhar

#128 by rsridhar:

I registered on this site only a few days back thinking that this is a Pakistani site. But I have noticed that there are many Indians registered on this site with a sole objective of thrashing Pakistan and Muslims. One has to be reasonable when finding faults in others. The only purpose was to draw the attention of angry Indians at their own weaknesses.

The title of the article is ``Is It A War On Islam? ``. My take on this whole tragic event is that it was not a war on Islam to begin with, but Indians, Russians and Israelis have turned it into (or are at least attempting to turn it into) a war on Islam due to their selfish motives. The main reason for India and Israel are the disputed territories of Kashmir and Palestine, the disputed nature of the same being supported by several UN resolutions.

As to your specific pointers to greatness of Indians, hats off to them. I am in absolute admiration of them. However, kindly note few clarifications:

1. The list of high achievers that you have produced has been shredded into smithereens long time back. In case you don`t remember, this list had started with some 500 Indian achievers. When researched, it was found that an over-whelming majority of the list was cooked up. There was no reality in it. Still I salute the remaining Indians on this list for their achievements.

2. The percentage of Indians working in the companies that you have mentioned cannot be compiled. In the USA or any where else in the world, there are no such population characteristics showing Indian employment specifically.

3. As regards history, Pakistan is an heir to the Great Indus Valley Civilization, one of the three most known ancient civilizations of the world. It is an heir to two other ancient civilizations - Buddhism and Gandhara.

4. Pakistan has its own lists of achievements - the most notable being pertnering with the USA in Afghanistan during 80s to help bring the iron curtain down. The free world today owes it to Pakistan. The freed Eastern European countries owe it even more. By wiping out its lone rival through Pakistan, the USA owes it the most. In a way, Indians should be thankful to Pakistan for opening the door to come out of its self-imposed isolation and only dealing with the former USSR.

5. Pakistanis in our own little way have made contributions to the world. I can give you one example. I am sure there are many more. The Sears Tower in Chicago is a standing ovation to a Pakistani Civil Engineer, who had invented the Bundle Tube Method of constructing tall buildings.

6. Token representations to minorities is acceptable. However, you also need to look into your current wave of fundamentalist Hindu nationalism that is targeting religious minorities and weakening a truly beautiful and peaceful Way of Life that is Hinduism.

You are absolutely right in mentioning that we have destroyed our institutions. Do note however, that we realized our follies and made a u-turn very rightfully. Our two problems emanate from (1) minority Mulla back-lash and (2) I believe an intentional anti-Muslim pronouncement in various forms by the USA establishment and media that tend to add fuel to Mulla ranks.

Indians on the other hand, have made a u-turn towards fundamentalism and extremism, the exact path of self-destruction from where Pakistan chose to come out of.

ahmedzai #127
Yes, I am referring to the fundamentalist mullahs in Pakistan. No leader in Pakistan has shown any desire to stop them so it is simply a matter of time before they come to power with the help of their sympathisers in the Pakistan Army and Gulf countries. India will do well not to waste its time with the unreliable weaklings and hypocrites in power currently.

re:#129 by ahmadzai
Thanks for your post.
Chowk is a site where Indians and Pakistanis have been interacting for a while. I have been here for more than 2 years (perhaps more) and i have enjoyed it. There is sometimes bad blood but it is to be expected.
The numbers that i have quoted have been quoted by a number of other people. I will leave it at that.
I am glad you feel Pakistan is a proud inheritor of Indus Civilisation. If so, we have no quarrels. Indians do not disown any of that. Gandhara and Indus are as much a part of India`s past as they are of Pakistan`s. The bigger question is: do Pakistanis in general feel the same way? How many people in Pak felt bad when Bamiyan buddhas were destroyed?
If you read my posts, i have tried to distinguish between Islam and Islamic fundamentalism, arguing that the 2 are not synonymous. It is for muslims of the world to convince the rest that Islam is a tolerant religion and the few fundamentalists that we see and hear about are on the fringes. However, i am concerned by the fact that a lot of good people do not protest when bad things happen: things like Daniel Pearl`s murder, murder of christians in churches, training of jehadis in madrassas in Pak who then go to various places to kill and sabotage. I do not see average Pakistanis rise in revolt against these.
I am concerned about what happened in Gujarat. Millions of Indians have said that this (the pogram) was a shameful thing. The Indian press has been very vociferous in its tirade against Modi. The fight against such forces of fundamentalism goes on in India. But there is a lot of hope. There are mechanisms of redressal (free judiciary, free press etc). TV has a larger than life image today. People are very aware of the problem. Many Pakis seem to take a potshot at Gujarat just to embarass Indians. This kind of a thing has been going on and is shameful. It is not going to destroy secularism in India though it is a serious threat. Hindutva as practiced by BJP is a self-defeating philosophy.
You can be justly proud of Pakistanis like the one who designed the Sears towers. Think about how to channelise the vast talent in your country in a fruitful manner. Think how Pakistanis can change the mindset of their rulers and forge a meaningful relationship with India. Only then can there be peace in this part of the world.
Sridhar

re. Sadna#124
Your concerns are commendable and shared (correspondingly). However I do not see eye-to-eye with you when you say that ``No Pakistani had been killed by a Hindutva goon, while many Indians have been killed by jihadis.`` This is factual but misses and clouds the point: Your Hindutva goons attack Muslims for their presumed affiliation with the enemy. So, when you say, ``Still Pakistanis whine all the time about Hindutva. India should think seriously of putting these groups to work to restore the balance.``, I dare say that for both the majority of Pakistani as well as the Hindutva sympathizers, that is exactly what Ahemadabad was about.
Sometimes it`s all just a matter of definition.
You mention repeatedly that ``the LeT and JeM are referred to as freedom fighters... by the Paksitani top brass``? Please provide references.
Yes, Pakistani leadership is hypcritical. However, given the direction Indian politics is taking (toward the far religious right), one really feels right-thinking Indians would do well look into the belly of their own beast rather than dismiss others` concerns as whining.
And no, enumerating the lofty achievements of Indian-Americans hardly detracts from this issue, even if Uncle Sam might be more likely to go to bed now with Advani and Co.

rsridgar, hi:

As a researcher with work experience in the USA, I can tell you that the numbers that have been quoted are impossible to compile.

When Bamiyan Buddhas were destroyed, Pakistanis had felt grieved. Even the Mullas had expressed their displeasure on this. You have to read Pakistani newspapers of those days to get an idea. Please note that SWAT Valley of NWFP, Pakistan has a rock carved statue of Buddha. If Pakistanis were same as Talibans, that statue would have been destroyed ages ago.

If it is for muslims of the world to convince the rest that Islam is a tolerant religion and the few fundamentalists that we see and hear about are on the fringes, then they are not being supported by Western media and special interest groups at all. Tell me how many times on CNN or BBC you see documentaries showing the ethnic diversity of Malaysia, foreign tourists in Egypt, fun and frolic of Dubai, rock and roll concerts in Pakistan, etc. All you get to see are few bearded junkies burning American flags for creating anti-Muslim frenzy in the USA. This explains why you did not see lot of good people protesting when bad things happen: things like Daniel Pearl`s murder, murder of christians in churches, etc. Again, I suggest that you read Pakistani newspapers of those times to get the real idea.

Training of jehadis in madrassas in Pakistan is a contentious issue. While I generally agree with you on the quality of education in those schools run by insane Mullas, you have to challenge with reasoning what Indian media is claiming about cross-border terrorism. Indian accusations that Pakistani based terrorists have struck against India could be false and only a propaganda. If India is right in its assertion, why is it refusing Pakistan`s suggestion to open up its administered part of Kashmir to foreign media and to posting neutral observers on the LOC.

Do note that not a single Pakistani has been arrested with a link to 9/11. (fyi only, Yousuf Ramzi was non-Pakistani and Aimal Kansi had killed 2 of his colleagues in FBI over promotion and rewards issue).

As to your last para, Pakistani rulers have time and again invited India for dialogue, but I see Indian leadership avoiding it, because of its weak stand on Kashmir. The problem is that Pakistanis would not negotiate anything without discussing Kashmir first and Indians would never like to discuss it, because of their inherent weakness with that issue. So we have a stalemate. We observe this kind of situation in our day to day life also. During confrontative arguments in workplace, we tend to avoid getting into debate with adversary if we are on weak footing e.g. while doing annual performance reviews of our ``sub-ordinates``.

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PM #133
`` I dare say that for both the majority of Pakistani as well as the Hindutva sympathizers, that is exactly what Ahemadabad was about.
Sometimes it`s all just a matter of definition.``

I have no interest in fighting for rights of Pakistanis in India, or Indian Muslims who think of themselves as Pakistanis. India became independent in 1947 and Pakistanis were not part of it.

I am not interested in fighting for rights under the Indian constitution of those whoclaim their allegiances are to Pakistan, nor am I answerable simply by virtue of being Hindu to any Pakistani for what happens in my country.

If a majority of Pakistanis think Indian Muslims are Pakistanis, let Pakistanis issue them visas and citizenship and allow them to migrate out. There is no room in India for Pakistanis to fight their political causes, for that Pakistanis got their own country in 1947.

Its strange you talk of Indians looking at the belly of their beast when it was you who brought up the Hindutva groups. Every thread on PAkistan there is someone bringing up Hindus, even the Abbasid one on Muslim history. Are Pakistanis severely mentally challenged or what?