Is It A War On Islam?

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Highly compelling. Cannot agree more!

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Professor writes : Why do only fanatics demonstrate in our cities?

If you read what you have written, it might dawn on you that people whom you call fanatics may not be fanatics after all. Could it be that they are one step ahead of you?

Let us hang our heads in shame

Indeed. Not because fanatics are on the street and you are not but because the non-fanatics have lost their moral credibility for waiting for so long.

Excellent thought provoking article without usual whining. Muslims must think about future before making up their mind. They must think about two things:

1) Are Afghanistan and Veitnam better off due to war or not? At least Veitnam with Confusian culture, missed a chance to have roughly 5000 dollars per capita by now. With it, they missed better roads, better healthcare, better food and better living. They won a great and highly admirable victory, but just a victory and nothing else. Are Muslims wishing to win hollow victory too? What is there to gain by beating up USA somewhere in the world by Muslims?

2) A victory of Islam is not the same as overall victory for Muslims. It is quite possible that somewhere in the world, Muslims might be able to teach a lesson to US imperialism - a great victory for allah-o-akbar and Islam but what does it mean for Muslims? Back to camel ride, chained women to the poles in homes, no music, no entertainment, no trade, no science, no technology, no food, no healthcare, no roads, no education.............but the short lived pleasure of beating the natural evolution of ideas, society, economics, banking, trade, science and technology.

Although it is not a war against Islam, though stupid acts of Muslim terrorists made it easy for USA to go after any Muslim state or individual. Even if it is considered a war against Islam, a defeat for Islam is actually a victory for liberal, secular, progressive and reform minded Muslims because a war against Islam will hit the conservative side of Islam much harder.

By very nature Muslims love ideas that threaten grave consequences for disobeying. For example, most Pakistani Americans tend to think themselves as Muslim first, Pakistani second and American third. The reason is that consequences of disobeying America are least threatening while consequences of disobeying religioin are most . Renouncing US citizenship does not mean losing head whereas renouncing Islam means vulnerable to losing head. It means if USA starts behaving like Islamic faith, Muslims would fall in love with USA. Bush, Cheney, Powell and Rumsfeld must project themselves as modern day Tariq Bin Ziyad, Mohammaed Bin Qasim, Otaiba Bin Muslim, Mahmud Ghaznavi, Shahab Uddin Ghauri and Ahmed Shah Abdali. If Pakistanis can name their male children, Taimur, Babar, Osama etc, they should consider Bush, Cheney et al in the future.

Emotionalism based on faith is not going to deliver anything in this world. Take it over, hamidm!

Pervez:

Ho Chi Minh could not have pulled it off without Giap…string or stiletto stuttering aside…

Our problem is unique…both as a nation and as a member of the global islamic fraternity…the silent majority is silent, subservient and slumbering…

…if there is any silver lining it is the ghost of osama and the mirage of a too-arrogant power…together they can only shake us out of the slumber…

rgds,

…t

Is this article criticizing the USA, the maulvis or the Pakistani liberals?

If there are people courageous enough in Pakistan to demonstrate against the US attack on Iraq, then I don`t the author has a right to call them, ``fanatics,`` just becuause he does not like them. I think on external issues that effect the whole country, the religious, ``fanatics`` and the secular ``fanatics`` both need to agree on one platform, instead of calling each other, ``fanatics.``

Is this a war on Islam? Yes and No. It is not a war on Islam as a religion. But the current war is definitely a war on certain Islamic countries. And nearly all the people that will be killed will be Muslims. And nearly all the people being discriminated against are Muslims. So if it walks, talks and swims like a duck, then maybe it is a duck. Maybe not.

It is interesting to see the Pakistani non-maulvis slowly starting to accept that the maulvis were right when they protested against the USA. Even this article states that only the, ``fanatics`` are demonstrating. Why are they, ``fanatics`` if they are demonstrating for the correct cause? They may be, ``fanatics`` in other areas, but not in the area of US attacks. Infact the groups that are, ``fanatics`` in this area are the ones who are supporting the war. Which is what much of Pakistan`s secular brigade, (I think including Hoodbhoy) did, during the war against Afghanistan. i.e. they hated the Taliban so much, that they closed thier eyes to the methods the USA used to destroy them. At that time, they were fully behind the daisycutters.

I supported the removal of the Taliban (even when the USA was supporting them), but through different means, on an article on Chowk:

``When the United States of America was laying down its plans to attack Afghanistan, a small group of people, including the author, highlighted the fact that USA should have exhausted all international legal options, before moving troops....

However, the USA’s actions, of not completely involving the international legal norms, have had the cascading effect which many of us feared, i.e. it has set a precedent under which any country can now bypass international laws, unilaterally declare another country a terrorist state, and launch a full-fledged military attack against it. This reduces the whole world to the law of the jungle, and the survival of the militarily fittest. Under this New World Order, the only factor protecting any state is its own military strength. This has made the world a more dangerous place, and will further increase every country’s desire to acquire more weaponry, both conventional and nuclear.``

This was written before the current Iraq fiasco. And lo and behold, Iraq is being attacked, outside international law. N. Korea is jumping on the nuclear bandwagon, because they are afraid they could be next on the US list of axis of evil, i.e. if the US is going to attack you, it is better to have your nukes online, because you will not be able to put them online after the attack.

And all of the sudden, the Pakistani liberals and seculars are now anti-US also (specially since they are in a state of shock over being put into the same bucket as far as registration and visas go, as the Pakistani maulvis, i.e. as far as the USA is concerned a Talibanized Pakistani and a beer drinking Westernized English speaking Pakistani are the same).

A bit too late to protest now, if you ask me. The damage is already done. I wish people would not have let their hatred of the mullah brigade clould their judgement so much, turning themselves into secular fanatics, that they would have given the rule of law a chance. One should support laws for those one dislikes also.

This is what happens when one uses secularism (or religionism) as the only criteria for good and bad. Both can be fanatic concepts. I don`t remeber completely, but I believe Hoodbhoy was a complete supporter of the US attack on Afghanistan, with no questions asked. So this article, though mostly accurate, is one attack too late. One cannot run with the hares and hunt with hounds.

Unless Muslims learn to keep religion out of governance and scientific education, I see very little hope for progress. As long as Muslim scientists (sounds like an oxymoron, I know) fear Islamic punishments or retaliation by the Mullahs; as long as our governments try to justify all scientific, financial and economic endeavors in light of Quran and Sunnah, progress will remain as elusive as ever. Quran should be treated as a book of moral and ethical code for personal consumption, not a supplementary book of Physics.
Islam, like modern-day Christianity, needs to be defanged. It should be a private matter between an individual and God. If someone is being blasphemous, it is a matter best left between him and God. Government or Mullahs should mind their own business. The concept of Jehad should be overhauled where it only stands for peaceful solutions, not mindless killings and violence, as is rampant in our societies.
Moreover, if someone is religious or has a great deal of understanding about Islam, that should not give him an instant authority to evaluate science, economics or matters of governance. Yet, this is what most of our Ulemas aspire to be, with disastrous consequences. For example, MMA now wants to lower taxes in NWFP. As we all know, NWFP is a poor province which faces a perpetual shortage of funds for public works. If personal taxes are lowered how is the provincial government expected to function? Is MMA going to hire a reknown economist to study the impact of such measures before legislating them? Of course not. For them, economics is the work of the Western devil and hence its a conspiracy against Ummah. They, like Taleban, want simple answers for complex issues and are not willing to go beyond a superficial understanding of the world around them. They always, perhaps subconciously, take the easy route. Thats why the emphasis is on banning Cable TV and co-education instead of creating jobs and building roads and hospitals.
Lastly, while USA is no angel, our whining against Americans (or any external force such as India) should be way, way down the list of complaints. My main beef with the Mullah brigade (and many moderate Muslims) is that they are too busy pointing fingers at non-Islamic factors and find a convenient scapegoat for all of our shortcomings. 99% of the time, it is us Muslims not Americans, who are responsible for our demise. What hope can one have for people who revere a murderer like Osama bin Laden as their hero? What do you say to someone who tries to justify the killings of 3000 innocents because of their country`s foreign policy?

The answer is simple, tried and tested with great success: Separation of Religion and State!

HT reports, Indian astronaut along with Israeli astronaut were among those on board space shuttle today.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_139766,00050001.htm

What do Pakistanis get? Fingerprinting, photographing. Pakistan military needs to rethink about its cost/benefit relationship with MMA and its allies.
The sooner Pakistan does a 180* turn on Jehad, Inc the better.

#2 by arjun_m on January 16, 2003 11:08am PT
More important question..are some countries using Islam to wage a war on the civilized world?

Dear arjun dont be so blinded by the US For all the hate that some muslims display for hindus(your civilised world) they never had any real power to change last 300-400 years however it was US which armed these groups and even provided the ideological linkages necessary to help these groups to use them for their needs.
Even then these groups have been largely ineffectual to bring about much damage for a country like India or for that matter any other country.
Now the US on the other hand is very clear on what it percives the rest of the world. Papers clearly talk about the ``Imperial role``.
The think tanks (funded by the key business lobbies) are the ones which drive the US agenda (people only vote on the agenda provided by the think tanks, which have the reach and the instiutional capabiity to direct public thinking) they have no love for anybody in the world. They clearly and explicitly want the world to be ordered to their needs and have been going around proclaming just that.

Now what is the problem with people like you? When influetial people who set the policy of a country clearly say that the world is in disorder and they want to set it into the order that they want. You dont want to belive them. You can see their capacity to reject any school of thought by ruthlessly extriminating people, countries, systems yet you want to like to dream and ignore what they say.

For all the hate the fundu islamiists say they have been only capable of suppressing happless civillians in their own countries and at times inflicting some damage on neighbouring countires.

Can you Imagine OIC enforcing an embargo on India for the gujrat roits?
Can you think pakistan will run India to ground by destorying access to the world market by declaring india a terrorist country and effectivly distrupting Indian economic life?

But there is one country which can and that is the US the same country which dumps its allies the same way as you use tissue paper. Even the allies like Korea, Japan even Germany have to bear humiliation and not even attempt to formualte a policy on their own which conflicts with the US policy.

And what is the US policy to gain access to Global markets. Up till now the US economy has gone thorugh various cycles to retain its preeminence. However the balance has changed in the last decade and in the coming decades the moment of truth will arrive.
The capitalist theory which organised socitey based solely on the idea that captial deployed should give power to the state(read elite) and the the rest of the population can be retained in place (ie in order) by offering a mixture of better living and making them dependent on the captilsist system for survival. Ie disorder is to be avoided by keeping the public in a permanent state of dependence through the carrot of better living. There is no moral basis of ordering of socitey. This works as long as the system is capable of meeting the financial wants(as appossed to needs)of the people.
The question is what will happen when the system is not capable of providing the needs of the people? The difference can be easily visible. Black outs in New York or any other major city in the west will lead to Roits. Where as a black out in bangalore or chennai or Islamabad or any other third world city does not affect the life subustantially.

It can be seen in the crime and the uncertainity of life in ghettos of LA or NY or Detroit or London where the system cant keep its side of the bargain.

No wonder the Captialist system considers no barrier sacrosant in its need to keep itself in good health because the other option is chaos.
So if you need to kill a millon people to keep the system going then it has to be kept going. If it means getiting the ``the poor , the tired and the needy`` to occupy and make productive a new rich land then it does it. If it means to elimniate a whole race of people to keep the riches and to still call them Poineers then it will be done. If it means to snatch people from another continent for its purpose of slavery to extract riches from the soil then it will be done.
US demanded its independence from UK precisely for the same reasons. Ie. UK by law would not accept manufacturing in US. The colonies even if populated and controlled by the mother country could not transfer technology to the colony and certainly could not deploy capital from the mother country to the colony for the benifit of the settlers. Thus the call for Independence. Simialrly the call to abolish salvery to keep it self in power is ok.
Mass manufacturing was the next to keep the flow of money coming. The next mantra was getting the capital from the now middle class into the control of the captialist through the stock market. Then came the mantra of mergers and aqusitions , after that the supply chain fine tuning. Then comes the mantra of spending (instead of saving)to encourage growth and stability of the captilist elite and thus the system. For this if you have to aquire oil wells or look aside while your hatchet man gasses a few thouand of his people and even providing them with some gas if he insists. If it means to turn loose muderous fanatics to secure the defeat the other system (basically competing for market share of the world) then that is also ok.
Now when the world after having seen through all the excuses of the last 50 years on US behaviour and no fig leaf now available then the new way out is give a new spin to imperialist role ie to give order to the world.

In reality the real reason is the benifits of the small group of people behind the major lobbyists and think tanks stand to gain.

It works in many ways the idea is to stack the odds in such a way that no country can ever come up to compete with the US. And how is it done. Encourage unbridiled consuption(keeping recources cheap is the key here) in the US. This keeps US market big and thus not only makes its companies(and its allies) strong but also makes sure that no one can survive without doing business with it or its allies or its dependencies.

Any country/organisation/system`s stablitiy or strength depends on how efficiently it uses its recources. It is the opposite in the US, encourage expansion for strength so that no one can be as big as them. At the same time bigger companies means more strength and more money available for military power. As socites accross the world will inevitably
become more better with better education, as the newly ordered counties start getting stable and capable of having a semblence of coming to grips to their new Identity the will become new markets to be controled by the overwhelmingly large US companies they hope to live in this Utopia for as long as they can. In fact people like you and many onthis board are coopted into this by better lifestyle.

Primary to keeping this association is to make sure that people are kept aware of how US socitey is equitable and their socites understandably under poverty and chaos are a mess often with voilent consequeces.

The ability to self govern and adapt to a industrial/ post industrial situation and at the same time come to grips to their new borders(most countires as defined today are recent and have hardly had much history in thier present form) and its new constiuents is a excersise fraught with endless traps. This it self a excersice which takes quite some time for people to come to grips with their existance. To add the growing power of the west through its economy and its ability to put a spanner in this exercise frequently have run many countries to the ground. Notably Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Algeria, Turkey, Pakistan and even Philipines Nicragua, Argentina, Brazil etc.

However a few countries have been able to over come this diffiuculties and are on their way to improving themselves notably India, Malaysia and lately Iran. A key fact to be noted that there is very little US control in these countries thus the spanner in the works effect enables them to comes to terms to their problems.

But if anybody is under the impression that these countries can at some day come to a postion where they can be as developed and as any in the west by following the US way then hey are sadly mistaken.
Any country can educate its people, keep peace and provide a stable envoirment for its economic and social activities. But to remain that way by following the US method requires a key ingredinet they dont have but the US has ie the capability to aquire cheap recources and push your way around thourgh burte economic and milatary force.

The allies like Japan Korea etc can succeed as long as they remain few in number and their relatively small populations can supplement and ride on the US`s bandwagon without excessively disturbing it.

However the key to this order is existance of cheap recources available (both humuan as well as material) to be exploited for the rich few.

What happens when (as is happening now and will continue to) technologicla competence spreads too easily and countries like china, India, groupings like ASEAN which while taking the benifits of this system refuse to be slave to it. more than 2.5 billion in these groupings can theorticaly have all that is considered to become powerful ie Stable socites and technological command and business independence? There obviously be a scramble for recources and inevitably there will be a conflict on the access to these recouces. Not only will these socites consume their own resources they will also compete globaly to gain acess to those through economic and often military means.

What happens when the US socitey which high labour costs cant have as big a say as it has had till now? What will happen when the cost of manufacturing , capability of manufacturing etc will not need any US suppourt. Other economies will grow in power and acutally the flow will reverse. and what will happen to the US Socitey the one in which order is dictated by satiation of economic needs not by moral force? Will it keep quite and accept its new situation?

This is a scenario which the US elite despeartely wants to avoid. But before we reach this scenario we have to examine the basis on which it is built. Can these countries really grow by the same mantra as is being prescribed by the US? ie by socitey becomeing blindly consumerist and thus contribute to the financial prosperity? No that will be a disaster because we cant be. We need to utilise our recorces efficitently because we dont have access to them as cheaply as the US has nor have the military or economic might to aquire them at will.

So what is the solution? Blind consumerist growth hinged on extreme dependence on the US and west will be a disaster as has been demonstatted in Brazil, Argentina etc. However there is no need to despair either, that people will aquire technological compentence is a given which no country from this group disbelives(as appossed to what the west belives, Read David Landes`s recent book) something which has been demonstated frist by Japan, then Korea, the ASEAN grouping and as India is currently demonstratating in its capability, I have no doubt that all people wether they are in africa or antartica or asia are capable of anything the west achives or more. Now the strategy has changed sutiably in the west ie to claim that while people are indivually capable of matching or superseding the white man. What the west(US) offers is the unique ability to manage socitey(ie retain order, the land of opportunites, the capability to reason and live together). And the given opposite is that the rest of the world has never demonstrated this capability and cant in the future because the are inherrantly incapable and require the western intervention to keep that order(thus provide cover to control recources and economies).

While it is the benfiit to the countries like India to ally where they can to the US it woud be stupid to belive that India can grow without at some point coming into conflict with the US economic intrests(Simply because unlike japan or korea earlier in present time there are too many players, incuding ASEAN, China and a stronger Europe). When that happens then? what is the treatmeant that will be given to India? What are the consequences of US using India as a counter to china? US would love to have a Strong India fully dependent on itself for its stategic goals. It could easily deal with such a country which is totaly dependent on itself.

But for India to really be in its driver seat then it needs to have a broader base of relationships. It needs to think what will be the consequence of the a large role of US in the Gulf? People like you who think India will be able to ride on the back of the US garunteed Oil security will be deeply disapointed. The US will not just garuntee the security of the Oil they will take it over with its companies. Once it is done higher oil prices will not be not much of a loss to US as it companies beinfit. And what will a bigger and stronger US economic power house demand? More access and control to Indian market and consumer. Most countires in the world have realised this and thus the oppostion to the war on Iraq.

A agressive US in its new incarnation will be the most dangerous country on the earth ie if it is not persently.

Just dont think that US will seek to contain China with Indias help. A even better result is to have both locked in rivalry wasting resources leaving the feild open to US to control rest of the world as well as to slowly contorl the economic lifeline of India.

Your thinking and many indians thinking is clouded by the kashmir issue and the reaction of Indian muslims to forceful domination by the hindu right. But every where My hindu friends have gone in the muslim world Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Malaysia they testify the respect and friendlyness of the muslims there towards Indians. If accounts from Afghanistan are to belived then the Indians are the most favoured nationality there. Now these people are all muslims and most probably more traditional than the Indians and pakistanis that you encounter. They hold dear all the tenents that you are so eager to shout down as medivial.

Woulld it be possible for you to remove your blikners and see the real danger to our part of the world? Stop using the phrases used by the west to depict today Islam or its adherents as uncivilised world. If there is a test for civiliastion then I would like to know what are the parameters to qualify for a civilised status.

``Quran should be treated as a book of moral and ethical code for personal consumption, not a supplementary book of Physics.
``

Such a simple truth evades a lot of people who insist that all the knowledge, scientific or otherwise, emanates from The Book. Obviously Al-Beruni didn`t think that way.

Ali#9

You should submit your post as an article since you have quite some points to make. Regarding Hindus in Arabian countries, perhaps you know that they dont have any religious rights, not even of celebrating their festivals in public. But they dont go about doing jihad for this ``injustice``. They know precisely that they are there for earning money and keep their religion confined to their household. As far as good will for Indians in Afghanistan is concerned, it is a result of lot of good work like building hospitals and humanitarian aid by India. All throughout Pakistan was busy training Taliban and Mujahideen in 80s and 90s, first to serve US purpose (and get $$s in return) and then to intall proxy govt (``strategic depth`` concept) causing immense bloodshed due to civil war in Afghanistan. This is not to say that India is acting altruistically; just to underline the fact that Pakistan has screwed afghanistan big time and utilized them as pawns. No wonder sensible Afghanis dont like Pakistan.

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.... whine, whine, whine .......... pervez sounds like one of those mazdoor kissan party activists from the sixties and seventies who ran around with red flags ranting and raving about american imperialism ...... some things never change .........

.... i, for one, ``cry out for the sort of enlightened foreign administration once provided by self-confident Englishmen in jodhpurs and pith helmets`` ....... we are incapable of ruling ourselves ..........

......... last july, on my annual visit to the pindi kutchery i couldn`t help but marvel at how cool and well ventilated the registrar`s office was - it was built by the gentlemen in jodhpurs more than a hundred and fifty years ago .......... on the other hand, the ten year old new courts built by the natives were hot and sweltering and crumbling ............ the lawyers in their dusty black blazers and ragged black ties sat on wobbly desks laid out over open sewers drinking tea and swatting at pesky flies .........and, as they had done for the past fifteen years, the other party failed to show up ....... oh, how i missed the sahibs who had built these courts and given us the trappings of civilization ............. i wish they and the memsahibs would come back and save my eighty year old father the indignity of hobbling around on a walker seeking justice ................

Mr. Hoodbhoy,

Would you be happy if US just executed Saddam Insane, his sons and all of duplicates ? Don`t you think Saddam deserves to be executed for his CRIMINAL NEGLIGENCE in dragging his people to a disastrous war in 1990. According to estimates 50,000 Iraqis perished in that war. Any dumb idiot can tell you that you will loose when fighting a formidable adversary unless of course you are a Saddam with fasle pride. If this man insists on ruling Iraqis with an Iron fist then he also got the responsibility to ensure their well being. Or do you think his false machismo is so admirable ? don`t you think if Saddam is either executed or exiled U.S may repeat the Japan model ( ``forced development`` after WW2 ) in Iraq. Even if US doesnot repeat Japan model, Iraqis can start their normal trade and get some life for themselves. So how about calling your fellow muslims in Islamabad, Cairo, Riyadh, Damascus, and Jakarta to start a campaign to dislodge saddam ? how about dispelling the impression of non-muslims who see muslims as supporting murderers because they happen to be part of global ummah or some such thing ?

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ali87:

you are a smart guy. why then are you wasting your time interacting with foot-soldiers of the fourth reich, a group of people whose intelligence level is lower than the intelligence level of callers on sunday morning c-span talk shows. why not let these people stew in their own hatred?

you raise some interesting points in your post. why don’t you submit your post as an article. i have some comments that I will post later.

#8 by adnan_rafiq
//...99% of the time, it is us Muslims not Americans, who are responsible for our demise. What hope can one have for people who revere a murderer like Osama bin Laden as their hero? ...//

Tell this to apologists and closet-jihadis crawling in this baord and you will hear more apologies, more whining and how it is all Jewish/Hindu conspiracy.

Mr. Hoodbhoy, we know how good muslims you aghkhanis are and what good deeds you are doing for Pakistan

I hate to say this but Urstruly has a point. If America is such an evil imperialist with dreams of subjugating the world, those guys in Karachi may be correct in protesting against USA. The article throughout complained the hegemonic designs of America and all the bad stuff it did in the past and speculated based on some opinions in some American newspapers about its future colonial designs and then at the end complains why those people in FATA are protesting. That is confusing to say the least.

If one has to go by the opinions in the media we, who has the fortune to read Pakistani khabarnamay and tasbaray, exactly know what the future designs of Islamists are. If push comes to shove, an Iraq or two under kafir laws of USA or much better than the whole of humanity under the big foot of shara`ah and ummah.
I have no doubt about which side respected professor sahib will take.

Why do only fanatics demonstrate in our cities? Mr. Hoodbhoy . . . yours or mine, the answer is: because the moderates are all not hanging their heads in shame, but shaking a leg at the disco, bending a knee at the gym, revealing a shapely thigh at the club, baring midriffs at the swimming pool, pushing up their cleavages at wedding ceremonis, bending elbows at the bar and using their mouth to eat with at McDonalds and Pizza Hut.

When not standing outside the US Consulate begging for visas, that is!!

Great piece.

Also, Sameer made some good comments.

What seems to be really imp. here in the US at this point is calm, thoughtful discourse. One one hand in Pakistan, you have one kind of madrassah/BJP indoctrination conflated with brutal impoverishment and political instability and over here we are told that if Bush does not attack Iraq we are subject to chaos; congrats to the Right/media for feeding us a strict diet of similar Manichean terror of poverty/powerlessness/violence/prejudice.

What passes for national discourse on mainstream taking head shows is thinly veiled jingoism, a Jerry Springer approach to political issues-when clearly there are some points to be made on all sides. Hope everyone noticed that every Congresswoman in our current govt has come out against a war on Iraq. Keep your ears open for the march on Washington this weekend.

Adnan: Good Post

Hari: Don`t you think that the Indians are going overboard on the self congratulation bid?? Yes, the NRIs are doing well, but that is hardly a reflection on India as a country.

Re: Dr. Hoodbhoy

You, sir, blame the ``fundalmentalists``, but have considered the fact that your opinions, which you rightly hold to be true, can be considered as ``fundalmentalist`` to others?

Like Romair said, you cannot run with the foxes and hunt with the hounds.

Indeed! Let us hang our heads in shame, because it is us, the educated elite of Pakistan, who has failed Pakistan and destoryed it; not the mullahs. The mullahs were a reaction to our apathy and indifference and only emerged to fill the leadership vaccum left by the psuedo intelligentsia of Pakistan. The mullahs, rightly or wrongly and that is open to debate, knew what they wanted, but we did not and thought that we did. Our sin is greater, because like it says, ``to whom much is given, much is expected``. We are a disappointment, because in our believes, we too were a different sort of fundalmentalists, but unlike the mullah, we did not have faith in the conviction of our believes.

Those, who are out on the streets shouting and cursing, are so because of their believes and we are not, because we do not know what to believe in. Hence, we pretend to run with the hares and at the same time, pretend to be the hounds.

Ciao

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``At their seminaries these clerics discuss most topics freely, and take on formerly taboo subjects in their publications and books. For example, Mr. Ayazi warned in one of his books, titled ``The Limits of the Shariah Law in the Islamic Government,`` that the most dangerous form of despotism was a religious one. ``It expands its military and social power and tries to justify it under a religious pretext,`` he wrote``.

why is this happening in a country that has been free from american influence for the last 20 years?

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/17/international/middleeast/17IRAN.html?pagewanted=print&position=top

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I liked this very much:

The mullahs were a reaction to our apathy and indifference and only emerged to fill the leadership vaccum left by the psuedo intelligentsia of Pakistan. The mullahs, rightly or wrongly and that is open to debate, knew what they wanted, but we did not and thought that we did. Our sin is greater, because like it says, ``to whom much is given, much is expected``. We are a disappointment, because in our believes, we too were a different sort of fundalmentalists, but unlike the mullah, we did not have faith in the conviction of our believes.

Those, who are out on the streets shouting and cursing, are so because of their believes and we are not, because we do not know what to believe in.

kashaziz #22 Your post indicates a sectarian bent of mind. The Quran strictly forbids sectarianism. Mend your evil ways. Next time you start thinking in sectarian terms, punish yourself by becoming a ``murgha`` and standing in a corner until this mischievous thoughts leaves your foolish mind.
PS: I also notice from your posts that sectarianism is not the only evil thing you engage in. You also engage in muslim chauvinism and berate other religions. You are in violation of strict Quranic injunctions there as well, which strictly prohibits the concept of a chosen people (which applies to muslims as much as to anyone else). So use the ``murgha`` punishment for yourself when you feel like a muslim chauvinist.
PPS: I know you will be angry at me for telling you mend your evil ways. But one day when you have developed some sense in your head, you will thank me for this. Trust me.

Minjaj #30: The mullahs are the natural outcome of military-mullah nexus created to ``defend the ideological boundries of Pakistan`` and creating a useful and trustworthy destabilizing tool against civilian leadership who thinks, rightfully, to control the destiny of people and country according to the definition of democracy. It is 90 percent myopic military establishment vision and 10 percent our sins.

Mullahs are there because diplomas from Akora Khattack and Banori Town madrassahs were accepted as bacheolar degrees while degrees from Lincoln inn and other European institutioins were denied equivalency of bacheolar degree.

Mullahs are also there because voting age limit was reduced to 18 years for no obvious reason except increase in religious parties vote.

Mullahs are there because mainstream political forces were ruthlessly and illegally supressed leaving the door open intentionally for mullahs to step in.

Mullahs are there not because of the apathy and indifference of `psedo-intelligentia`. Mullahs are absent from interior Sindh and Panjab because those places could be won by military supporters through elaborate techniques of rigging the elections. How come apathy and indifference of `pseudo-intelligentia` played no role in the interior Sindh and interior Panjab?

Mullahs are no match in Pakistani politics provided fair and level playing field. Yes, mullahs can be made to win in interior Sindh and Panjab too, if desired, by breaking down mainstream political parties further with 3 candidates from various factions of Muslim leagues and three candidates from various factions of PPP running for each seat against singlr unified MMA candidate plus covert or overt military backing.

Please distribute the blame across the board honestly.

#26 by ferozk on January 17, 2003 7:03am PT
#30 by Minhaj on January 17, 2003 9:10am PT
#29 by faisaluno on January 17, 2003 8:46am PT
#25 by Saminasha on January 17, 2003 7:03am PT
#23 by veeresh on January 17, 2003 3:36am PT
#21 by dullabhatti on January 16, 2003 10:52pm PT


Fact is that we have the power to change. If the Mullahs can give direction to the people on the street in a manner witnessed today it is because the ones who have the luxury of doing a encomassing study of Islam and actually discovering the spirit of it have just abandoned it.

many have given solutions saying that Islam should be turned in to another version of Christainity.. Inane suggestions of sepration of chruch and state. or it being a presonalised version of Islam being best..


What are the chances of that happening?? ... Zilch..


Instead if we took the trouble of understanding Islam and being more authoratitive and if we start considering Islamic studies as another branch of vital studies and start entering it It would give the much needed modern outlook to the Islam as being practiced..


And surprise .. Surprise you will find that there is acutally a seperation of church and State (I hate this term) in Islam. In history you can find a wide varitey of interprations of Islam as suited to local socitey of the particular time. You will find that there were many muslim states which did not discrimate in administration and public life on basis of religion or even national origin.

There have been states that have discriminated supressed their socities to I dont deny that. But just as secualr states have the capibiltiy of opressing so do Islamic states.

So the question boils down not as to how adapt Isalm to the western mould but how to solve our problems while remaining within the ambit of Islam for it allows a great amount of leeway.

If any of you are fed up of the Uneducated Mullahs directing the Uneducated masses then they are free to study Islam and taking up positons which influence public behaviour and thought.

But if we sit on our butts and condemm the mullah (most of whom undoubtely have less expousure to the chalanges thrown up by the present worldly life) then nothing is going to happen except that he will throw scorn on you. While the doors are open withiin Islam to anyone who choses to take the mantle of mulla, Kazi, mufti....

Infact this is precisely what is happening in Iran.

A conservative with a agenda of the modernist... Sounds like a oxymoron does it??

It only goes to show how dated and inefficeint the terms we borrow from the west are in context of our situation..

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/EA10Ak01.html

Iran: Key dissident cleric in worsening health
By Charles Recknagel/Azam Gorgin

PRAGUE - Ayatollah Hussein-Ali Montazeri, the man who almost became Iran`s supreme leader a little over a decade ago, is in worsening health as he remains under house arrest in the holy city of Qom.

The ayatollah`s son, Ahmad, told the US Persian-language service Radio Farda that doctors who visited him recently have diagnosed him as suffering from a sleeping disorder that so far has not responded to medication and directly results from his five years of confinement. ``The necessary medication has been prescribed for his sleeping disorder. The reason that he has not recuperated is his living environment and not his physical condition. He has been living in this house [under house arrest] behind closed doors for more than five years,`` Ahmad Montazeri said.

Ahmad Montazeri said that his father`s sleeping disorder has worsened noticeably in recent days. The cleric, who is 81, sleeps up to 16 hours a day and suffers from a number of other debilitating medical problems. ``What is worrisome is that he sleeps 16 hours a day, he has a heart problem, high blood pressure and is diabetic. He has been suffering from the sleeping disorder for the past three months, and the situation has worsened in the past 10 days,`` Ahmad Montazeri said.

The latest visit by doctors to Montazeri`s home comes after a first medical visit was turned back on January 5 by security guards. The guards, from Iran`s military elite, the Islamic Revolution Guards Corps (IRGC), refused entry to the medical team despite the fact that a deputy health minister accompanied them at the suggestion of Iran`s moderate president, Mohammad Khatami, to give official approval for the visit.

Montazeri`s family says that the security guards told them they had received instructions from the hardline-dominated Special Court for the Clergy not to admit visitors. The special court, which has responsibility for all judicial matters involving clerics, on Wednesday called that report false and said the doctors were not admitted because they had not coordinated their visit beforehand with authorities.

The successful entry by the medical team comes after more than 70 reformist members of parliament wrote a letter demanding the Defense Ministry explain why the IRGC was barring doctors from the Montazeri home.

The news of Montazeri`s deteriorating health is the latest episode in a long-running conflict between the dissident cleric and hardliners supported by Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei. If the supreme leader does not release Montazeri following the recommendation of the medical team, the decision is sure to raise the question of whether he has chosen to condemn Montazeri to death by way of continued confinement.

The case has great political significance in Iran because Montazeri - thanks to his eminent religious and revolutionary credentials - is one of the few men within Iran`s clerical elite with the stature to publicly oppose and criticize Khamenei on a number of highly sensitive issues.

Montazeri was initially tapped to be the successor to Iran`s first supreme leader and founder of the Islamic Revolution, Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, who sometimes referred to Montazeri as ``the fruit of my life``. But Montazeri`s open criticism of some of the revolution`s harshest treatment of its opponents, as well as his criticism of the conduct of the 1980-1988 war with Iraq, antagonized other key members of Khomeini`s inner circle. When Khomeini fell gravely ill before his death in 1989, Montazeri`s rivals persuaded the revolutionary leader to renounce his protege and relieve him of official duties.

With Montazeri forced aside, Ali Khamenei, a man with lesser religious qualifications, was speedily promoted to the necessary rank of ayatollah and became Iran`s next supreme leader after Khomeini. The substitution of Khamenei for Montazeri continues to cause disputes within Iran`s clerical establishment, which sees clear ideological differences between the two men.

RFE/RL regional specialist William Samii said that one of the most important differences is over the extent to which the clergy should exercise absolute political as well as religious power in Iran through the office of the supreme leader. ``Montazeri was a creator of the current system and he continues to favor an Islamic theocracy. But many of the objections to the current state of affairs that he raised in a November 1997 lecture have since been repeated by activists. For example, he objected to the role of the Guardians Council in vetting candidates for elected office. He spoke out against the use of violence in the political process. And he criticized using the cleric`s mantle to hide personal pursuits, or corruption, in other words,`` Samii said.

Montazeri has frequently called for placing limits on the absolute authority wielded today by Supreme Leader Khamenei. He has said that while Khomeini had the necessary stature for the post, Khamenei does not.

``Montazeri has been a fierce critic of Khamenei, who has pretensions to the religious learning and status of his predecessor. Montazeri said in 1997 that Khamenei is not a religious source of emulation. And in 1994, he urged Khamenei to excuse himself from answering a religious question by saying that he is too busy. Montazeri said that the country`s religious guardian, if one is really qualified to be one, should only have a supervisory role,`` Samii said.

The dissident cleric has also said that he and other framers of the 1979 constitution never intended to accord the institution with absolute powers that could be abused by lesser men. The post of supreme leader was created by the 1979 revolution to ensure the Islamic nature of the new society by subjecting all key matters to review by the country`s preeminent religious figure.

Specifically, Montazeri has written that the supreme leader ``can never be beyond the law, and he cannot interfere in all affairs, particularly affairs that fall outside his area of expertise, such as complex economic issues or issues of foreign policy and international relations``.

He has also said that, ``the most important point to be highlighted is that Islam is for the separation of powers and does not recognize the concentration of power in the hand of a fallible human being``.

These opinions, which resulted in Montazeri`s being put under house arrest in 1997, go right to the heart of the debate in Iran today over to what extent the Islamic Republic should be an Islamic state run by appointed clerics and to what extent a republic ruled by popularly elected representatives. They have also made Montazeri a leading light for many reformist political figures, leading progressive clerics, and those young seminary students who feel Iran`s Shi`ite Muslim leaders should remain outside of politics or risk losing credibility with the faithful.

In one sign of Montazeri`s continuing political importance, a former member of parliament wrote an open letter in November calling for Khamenei to release Montazeri, a man he described as worthy - unlike Khamenei - of the rank of ayatollah. Former parliamentarian Qasem Sholeh-Sadi wrote, ``It has been several years that [Montazeri] has been under house arrest with no legitimate court verdict against him, and everyone is deprived of his guidance.``

Sadi added, ``You [Khamenei] lack legitimacy for religious leadership because you remain [despite Khamenei`s rapid promotion] a `Hojjat ol-eslam` [a religious rank], which is miles away from the rank of an ayatollah. One needs years of research, writing, and teaching to be considered one.``

Montazeri remains influential in Iran despite his house arrest and the fact that he is barred from teaching, that his financial resources are frozen, and that he can receive no guests except close relatives. The dissident cleric periodically issues public statements through his family and has conducted very rare interviews with the press by fax.

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``Meanwhile, the kings of Iran and Afghanistan and Ayub Khan of Pakistan did nothing to make modernity attractive for the masses. They did not promote mass schooling. They did not open hospitals catering for all. They did not decrease the gap between the rich and poor. In Iran and Pakistan the apparently `modernist` rulers increased their personal power. They also increased the armed forces.

_ _ _if poverty is somehow removed and justice is provided to the have-nots, there is a possibility of saving Pakistan from a civil war in the name of religion. If this does not happen, one does not know what will happen but thinking about the future makes one shudder``

primer on the rise of madrasas in pak. article apperead on sep 8, 2001. looks like author`s prediction might be slightly off.

The madrassas and the have-nots
The News

The writer is a Professor of Linguistics and South Asian Studies, Quaid-i-Azam University, Islamabad

There is virtual panic among doctors and senior executives in Karachi-those who happen to be Shias, that is. A spate of killings, and targeted killings at that, of senior Shia doctors and executives has created this state of anxiety. The government has banned the extremist Sunni and Shia organisations and passed a law to integrate the religious seminaries (madrassas) with the mainstream, basically Western oriented, education system. In short, at the highest level the functionaries of the state realize that there is a connection between madrassas and sectarianism or extreme religiosity and militancy in Pakistan.

What is less often realised is that poverty too comes into the equation. The Islamic lobby, whether in the madrassas, the Jihadi groups or religious parties, comprise for the most part of young men from the poorer sections of society. While nobody can claim that they choose the religious life only because of poverty, it does appear that some of the frustrations of poverty are expressed through an active resistance to the lifestyle associated with the urban rule-the westernised lifestyle. And the west, as we know, has been seen as a threat in Islamic societies since the medieval ages.

It must be remembered that the ulema give the appearance of being stagnant and backward looking but that is only one aspect of their intellectual life. They taught the old medieval texts in Arabic and Persian for continuity as they do to this day in Pakistan. But along with them they also taught their students how to refute modern ideas. It is true that they generally knew no English (or Greek earlier) and had only a vague knowledge of the core philosophies of the West. However, that which they knew they refuted. Nowadays, in their final years Pakistani madrassa students are taught texts in Urdu for the refutation of Western economic and political philosophies. These texts are in simple Urdu and the students understand them far better than their traditional Arabic texts which they memorize. Sunni madrassa students study texts which refute Shia thought. Shia students must be studying texts refuting Sunni doctrines (but these have not been seen by the author). Among the Sunnis the Deobandis have texts refuting certain doctrines of the Barelvis while the latter have texts refuting Deobandis. The Ahl-e-Hadith too have texts refuting the doctrines of the other sub-sects. Then there are texts refuting Western ideas like socialism, capitalism, democracy, individualism and so on. In some cases, as in the opposition to family planning, even the Islamic permission for coitus interreptus (al-Azl) is glossed over because in the modern world the idea comes from Western sources. In short, far from being completely frozen in time, the ulema are in continuous opposition to it. They keep abreast with the gist of innovations in philosophy, however limited their understanding of them, and refute them. They do not withdraw from the world but confront it and seek to change it.

In the twentieth century the ulema were in a state of siege. The West had conquered and the madrassas were seen as antiquated leftovers of a dying world. People either turned away entirely from them or only invoked their blessings on a religious ritual ignoring them for the rest of the time. Yet, the madrassas reacted more violently to the modernist Muslim philosophers who had studied in the West and interpreted Islam differently from them. In Islam and Modernity (1982), Fazlur Rahman, a prominent academic and Islamic modernist from Pakistan tells us how the modernists had not been able to create a base for themselves in Pakistan. The universities were not equipped to attract talented people. Those who chose to study Islamic studies were generally among the least competent of the student body. The madrassas too did not have competent people but they were not dependent on the state for employment and could therefore afford to be independent.

In the nineteen sixties, just when the world regarded the Islamists as a spent force or a legacy from the past, the Islamic revivalist movement was gathering force. Outwardly girls wore mini skirts in Tehran and tight teddy shirts in Lahore but on the campuses the lower middle class and rural students responded to the words of the Islamic ideologies. In Pakistan the Jamat-e-Islami and its founder Abul Ala Maudoodi inspired the students. In Iran Ayatullah Khomeini was considered dangerous enough to be exiled though his day had not come. In Kabul people like Gulbadin Hekmatyar were in revolt against the westernised style of the Kabul aristocracy on the campuses. This was also happening in the rest of the Islamic world but Afghanistan and Iran are most relevant for us in Pakistan. Meanwhile, the kings of Iran and Afghanistan and Ayub Khan of Pakistan did nothing to make modernity attractive for the masses. They did not promote mass schooling. They did not open hospitals catering for all. They did not decrease the gap between the rich and poor. In Iran and Pakistan the apparently `modernist` rulers increased their personal power. They also increased the armed forces. They disillusioned the masses till they clamoured for a change for the better.

In Iran intellectuals like Ali Shariati made the educated public feel that the change could come from a reinterpretation of Islam. When the hatred of the Shah increased the bazaar merchants and the lower middle class, who had always been religious, promoted Khomeini and thus the clergy took over in the country. In Afghanistan the educated middle class went for the socialist alternative in complete ignorance of the ordinary people`s feelings and failed. In Pakistan the voters chose Bhutto`s version of socialism but the have-nots were cheated once again. Are they turning to the Islamists after this? If one look at the pattern of voting, the answer is `No`. But the madrassas are flexing their muscles in the wings.

At the time of the partition there were 137 madrassas. In 1950 there were 210 of them while in 1971 they increased to 563. Nowadays there are at least 7000 of them. Out of the registered ones - and most are still unregistered - the Barelvis have 1400; the Deobandis 550 and the Ahl-e-Hadith 347. These are the Sunni madrassas. The figures of the Shia seminaries is not available with the present author. Most of them are small institutions attached to mosques but they are not cramped since the mosques have open areas. There are some institutions for girls but the present author was allowed to visit only the boy`s madrassas.

The clergy is more competent in Urdu than in any other language because the central examination of the madrassas is in Urdu. This brings it in line with the lower middle class intelligentsia of the cities. Moreover, sitting on the floor, wearing local clothes and speaking the local languages emphasises the similarities between the common people and the clergy.

Since the clergy has gained power in Iran and Afghanistan the madrassas are changing from conservatism to revivalism. They always had a blueprint for the society but now they are getting convinced it can be used in Pakistan. The secret of this change does not lie in the prescribed texts which hark back to the Middle Ages. The secret lies in the texts which refute the doctrines of the West mentioned earlier; the pamphlets about the crusades in Afghanistan and Kashmir available in the madrassas; and the interaction of madrassa students with Jihadi elements from Kashmir or elsewhere. The students are taken out to protest against a policy they dislike (eg UN sanctions on the Taliban; the ban on Jihadi elements to collect donations openly; changes in the Blasphemy Act etc). In short, the madrassas are in constant contact with the outside world and this world appears alien and hostile to them.

After all, this world is rich and comfortable and it never gave them a decent living earlier. Indeed, it laughed at them and despised them. Madrassas house poor children even now and the grudge they bear the rich - and a most justified grudge it is - gets translated into (Islamic) zeal. At least some of the hatred expressed by the bearded young men who break the windshields of partygoers on New Year`s eve is class-bound in origin. It looks like religious zeal to be sure but I suspect it comes, at least in part, from the frustrations and indignities of poverty. In short, the rage of the dispossessed gets translated in religious zeal. Madrassa revivalism, then, is a continuation of the revenge of the have-nots from the have. It derives some of its psychological energy from class hatred. In other words, if poverty is somehow removed and justice is provided to the have-nots, there is a possibility of saving Pakistan from a civil war in the name of religion. If this does not happen, one does not know what will happen but thinking about the future makes one shudder.

ATONEMENT FOR FIFTH COLUMN

Throughout the history, fifth column has played a crucial role in any aggression, whether it was colonial or ideological. But history also tells us that their role is always limited to a certain stage, and when that stage comes they are told ``If you couldn`t be sincere with your own people, how could you be sincere with us`` . That stage has also come in this neocolonial aggression. So next time when hamidm and sameerjb lower their pants at a security check point at an American airport they should remember that. And also remember that time, which is just around the corner, when you will be told at your work ``your services are no longer required because you look exactly like those whom you tell us to hate`` .

And I see that our good Professor, to avoid this ``jaisa mooNh waisee chupaiR``, is now hanging his head in shame and beg for atonement. Well, if he wants atoned he must seek forgiveness from the Afghani orphan who digs garbage cans for food right there in Islamabad where Professor lives. It is the same child whose father was given a death sentence by Professor for the crime of loving his country and his faith; and as he was dying our Professor was cheerleading the chorus. That orphan might forgive him. And that Afghan widow might also forgive him whose face never a stranger saw but now sells her body right in Islamabad where professor lives. Our good Professor sentenced her husband to a fiery death for the crime that he only wanted to protect her honor. Yeah, she might forgive him. And Pakistani nation might also forgive him for backstabbing Dr. Qadeer Khan and for the hardship that whole nation suffered. But history neither forgives nor forgets. It never has.

[ #29 by faisaluno on January 17, 2003 8:46am PT

``At their seminaries these clerics discuss most topics freely, ...``. ]

Was the question of apostasy discussed freely? Or, was it, freely, not on agenda?

various replies: Church and State and State and Church.

I think people spend way too much time debating this. Pakistan is not going to prosper if it combines State with Church. It is not going to prosper if it separates State from Church, either. Yet everyone seems obsessed with it. People are obsessed with Islam, joining and separating it.

A better usage of time would be to move this debate way down on the list of priorities. And start spending mental bandwidth on important issues, like education, law and order, jobs etc. Separating or combining State and Church is not going to solve these problems.

After all, Iraq is the most secular Arab country, with a Christian VP. It has been destroyed by other secular countries. Turkey is a forced secular country, yet maulvis have been elected there. India is a secular country, yet the most non-secular govt in the world, BJP, is running the show. Not to mention the fact that India`s, Iraq`s and Turkey`s economies have traditionally been no better than Pakistan`s. Similarly, Afghanistan was non-secular, but poor. Pakistan has been semi-secular, but poor also.

Poverty does not discriminate between religious and secular govts.

People need to get out of this obsession for and against religion. Pakistani surveys clearly indicate that religion and state is a problem very low on people`s priority list. They could care less about separation and joining of Church and State, as long as they have security and jobs. It is only people at the secular and religious extremes who keep obsessing with it. After all, Pakistanis migrate to secular America, and they migrate to religious Saudi Arabia. Indians do the same. The deciding factor is always jobs and physical security, not Church or State.

Obsession with religion being the solution (by maulvis) and religion being the problem (secularatics) is a big problem in and of itself. It is a debate that only the well-fed and well-looked after can lead and waste time on. How about we debate how to educate kids in rural areas? Or how to get rid of feudalism? And how to end discrimination against women? All these issues are common to secular and religious govts.

Until these problems are solved, debating church and state is a useless excercise, designed only to push one`s own point of view. All these debates do is to tear socieities apart in two different directions, with each group calling the other a fanatic. If these two groups had some sense, they would realize that instead of completely trying to wipe out the other, and the other`s point of view, they should spend more time trying to find out how they can get along with the other.

Pakistan, unlike USA, consists of many people who want some religion in their public lives. And, Pakistan, unlike Saudi Arabia, consists of many people who don`t want religion in their public lives. If one group can constructively convince the other to change its point of view, then that is where the country should be pointed to. However, that will not happen, because the two groups will never budge. The solution in such a situation is not for each group to attempt to wipe out and discredit the other - which is happening now.

A solution is for each group to accept the other, and to meet somewhere in between, and not force their own agenda completely. That requires some enlightened and non-fanatic people on the maulvi brigade side and on the secular brigade side. Unfortunately, each side is filled with fanatics, with a, ``My way or the Highway`` mentality. Each group dead sure the other is an idiot, and each group dead sure that they have the answer.

In the meanwhile, no one has time to discuss the real problems of Pakistan, like education.

Maybe it is good that maulvis are running NWFP. After, five years, we will know at a practical level whether the maulvis in NWFP and Baluchistan or the non-maulvis in Sind and Punjab can do a better job. Both groups will have to put their money where their mouth is.

In the meanwhile, Pakistan will become a much better and peaceful place if the secular and religious brigade get off their high-horses of self-righteousness, and stop trying to force the whole country to do what they want it to do. Live and let live, and let the people decide what kind of govt. they want - secular or relgious.

A bit off the topic, but there is an interesting organization in Pakistan, for the, ``best and brightest`` teenagers in the country, called Buraq Space camp. I think it is jointly run by the PAF, SUPARCO, some scientists and a private group.

http://www.buraqonline.org/

How my life changed ... in ten days

By Fauzia Ahmad Bawany

On the morning of Friday, January 11, 2002, I was trying my best to fight away the tears that kept on welling up in my eyes. I said the most reluctant goodbye to my family while struggling to conceal those uncontrollable tears, and turning away, dragged my luggage into the Karachi airport.

An hour later, I was seated comfortably in a plane on its way to Islamabad. Hiding my loneliness, uncertainty and fear of travelling in planes behind my fictitious smile, I forced myself to imagine the camp I was going to attend, the friends I`ll make and the fun we`ll have together ... However, when I finally reached the camping grounds of the Buraq Space Camp, innumerable shocks awaited me.

Led by a team of ex-Buraqians, the camp turned out to be nothing of the sort I had imagined it to be.

One wake-up call at 7:00am and we were expected to line up in front of our tents - upright and displaying not a single show of dislike for the biting cold winds, which haunted our vicinity. After jogging and breakfast, used to commence a series of the most wonderful, eye as well as mind opening, soul stirring lectures, presentations and activities under the sun. They varied from cryptology to astro-navigation, history and future to the discovery and exploitation of antimatter, from problems of population explosion to the colonization of Mars. From the discussion of women`s rights to career guidance talks regarding all options were explored. From construction of our own small rockets after determining their centre of gravity and centre of pressure and launching them, to visiting the vicinity of the runway and watching two roaring F-16s take off, the Buraq Space Camp was a roller coaster ride to a little bit of self-discovery, to the realization of the limitations of my efforts, yet to the vision that nothing is impossible.

By the end of the day (our days used to end at 2:00am), I used to be so tired that as soon as my head touched the pillow, I used to feel myself dreaming about making a difference, about overcoming my worst fears, about doing things which would lead me to immortality - to be able to do something which would never allow this world to forget me.

During those ten days, which I have spent in Islamabad, of my sixteen-year-old life, Buraq has revolutionzed my thoughts, perspectives, imagination and most of all my being. The realization of the value of teamwork and the pricelessness of time now keep me from taking people and objects around me for granted.I think that the chance I have to change this world through my beliefs, makes my life worth living. I believe in walking barefoot on the dewy cool grass, accompanied only by my thoughts after Fajr prayers. I believe in being carefree and in making mistakes sometimes and I believe that neither money nor any other thing except the passion and craziness to pursue your dreams makes this world go round.

Buraq, in short, has made me one of the luckiest people I know. Why? Because now, every day when I open my eyes, I remind myself that it is special. Everyday, every minute, every moment, every breath truly is a gift - an irreplaceable gift from Allah... (http://www.dawn.com/weekly/yworld/yworld5.htm)

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Ref arjun_m #27

[...Sun micro, hotmail etc. were founded by American citizens..not Indians...]

Are you sure about this? Vinod Khosla and Sabhir Bhatia would have had to wait 5 years AFTER becoming permanent residents to become citizens,and the green card process itself might have taken 2 years. So, it is entirely possible that these guys held an Indian passport at the time they were part of the group that founded Sun and Hotmail respectively.

#36
[If you couldn`t be sincere with your own people, how could you be sincere with us``. That stage has also come in this neocolonial aggression. So next time when hamidm and sameerjb lower........]

Please visit the following thread at chowk unplugged to see how sincere I am with my people at chowk. What is your contribution to your people at chowk?

http://63.194.130.82/cgi-bin/show_forum_topic_post_list.cgi?tid=00000389&fid=00000006

Merely talking about sincerity with your own people and using it as a shield for self-righteousness means nothing. OBL also talked much about his sincerity with Afghan people without spending a dime for any school, college, hospital, road or bridge.

urstruly

..........let`s not get all silly and emtional about the incorrigible afghans .......

``And that Afghan widow might also forgive him whose face never a stranger saw but now sells her body right in Islamabad where professor lives.``

.....nonsense ! .. .........these afghan ``widows`` were selling their bodies in G-8 and G-9 while the taliban were praying and partying with their nadas in kabul ......... as a matter of fact there has never been a dearth of afghan prostitutes (male or female) in any large pakistani city .......... let`s save our pity for those who deserve it - the poor people of pakistan whose cities have been overrun by the afghans fleeing from the bearded monsters who banished music and laughter .......... the sad part is that other than those who were living in the border camps, none of them are ever going back to that god forsaken land .............. not that i should complain - afterall, grandpa came to quetta from kandahar twenty years before the big earthquake ............but even he used to say, ``there is a big difference between a insaan and a pathan`` .......... god bless his soul

Sameer JB: Please visit the following thread at chowk unplugged to see how sincere I am with my people at chowk. ``

Indeed. And I also saw it on headless chicken board. Thank you very much.

hamidm

Yep, that was expected. We have a proverb for that in punjabi, which goes like this ``Ghairat aani jaani shay way, banday nooN dheet hona chahida eh`` . On another board I also saw tahmad kissing his thumbs and touching them with his eyes, saying ``Racial profiling? wah subhanallah, goray di we kia baat ay ji - sadqay jawaN hooN saadi racial profiling hoay di - wah ji wah bhaag lagay rehn, khair hoay goriaN di``

tsk tsk tsk

mbenzenglish # 28

While I am my reservations about dropping nukes on Japan imperial Japan is no laughing joke. They killed more Asians than Uncle Sam every will. May be Uncle Sam should have allowed Japanese to impose their rule on the Muslim world. A few years under Japanese rule might knock some senses into some in the Muslim world.

Urs Sahib,

I certainly hope your hypothetical prof. wasn`t hauled up on the Blasphemy Laws because his students Amir, Saliha and Tahseen were terrified by the dynamics of simple logic that dictate that Prophet Mohammad`s parents weren`t Muslim. There are many kinds of starvation; actual physical hunger and spiritual and intellectual hunger for reasonable knowledge unmediated by those idiots raving into the loud speaker at Friday prayers. I can guarantee that your feeding a starving child and then brainwashing him with Islamacism is no real victory, hain na?

Speaking of integrity, I certainly hope that you have the modicum to admit that the Taliban was leading Afghanistan on a chain to impoverishment. There were many reports that Afghani women were forced to sex work because 1. they were not allowed to work 2. the infrastructure of the Taliban`s Afghanistan did not address the economical needs of indigent Afghanis.

PROF IN CLOUD 9,

My dear prof, long before the educated of pakistan demonstrate in pak streets for peace, there would be streets named after Abdus salam, Gaznavi would have been erased from the pak books. Prof, pull your head from the clouds and look for the following signs in pakistan.

The president of pakistan would be greeting the chrisittians for the christmas.
Honour killing would be declared illegal. There would be state holiday for basant. The ilks of tahmed and urtruly will be posting on chowk that muslims should not under take the task of finiding and killing the non-innocent kafirs as part of jihad.

Prof, it is time for you to realise that the verage pakistani is in support of jihad as much as a mdrassa graduate. At least madrssas chap is honest and open about his joy in attaining the jihadic heaven, the others are more sbtle, they fund and support the jihadists. With out this wide spreead poplular support for the sheria principles as practiced in pakistan, the blasphemy laws, hoododd ordinance etc would not have survived so many regime changes.

Prof, realises that mushy has taken pakistan on the path laid out by zia by declaring the madrassa products as graduates while declaring the education of benzir as not at par with that of a madrassa fram faislalbad.

``Readers browsing through book bazaars in Rawalpindi and Peshawar can, even today, find textbooks written as part of the series underwritten by a USAID $50 million grant to the University of Nebraska in the 1980`s. These textbooks sought to counterbalance Marxism through creating enthusiasm in Islamic militancy. They exhorted Afghan children to ``pluck out the eyes of the Soviet enemy and cut off his legs``. Years after the books were first printed they were approved by the Taliban for use in madrassas - a stamp of their ideological correctness``

So the world according to the prof, it is US that created taliban. No sir, not at all. A new generation grew up in pakistan indoctrinated with hatred, by the k for kafir education, with identifying the hindu a curriculum requirement. Long before taliban came, hoodood ordinances were in place, ahmadias were non-muslims, the honour killing was legitimised, the sheria courts were in place.

Al that the americans did is to fund the madrassas in acountry were hatered for other religions were taking roots in tune with the TNT that created pakistan.

What all of the educated of chowk have refused to admitt is that TNT is simply a political operationalisation of the jihadic idea of killing the kafirs, TNT is only a political prelude to religious jihad.

#38: romair:
[ ... After all, Pakistanis migrate to secular America, and they migrate to religious Saudi Arabia. Indians do the same. The deciding factor is always jobs and physical security, not Church or State. ...]

Romair, have you ever lived in Saudi Arabia? Lets take an average Pakistani from Lahore, Karachi or Quetta and offer him a US citizenship (secular) on one hand and a Saudi (religious) bataaaqa on the other hand. How much are you willing to bet on the outcome?
The issue of separation of state and church is not as moot as you try to make it sound like. The greatest proof of this is that you are sitting in this secular land (by your own free will, I might add) and not in ultra-religious Saudi Arabia or even your own country Pakistan. In the US, you have the freedom to rant, pray or do whatever you like. Try doing the same in Saudia (at your own risk). You proclaim that ``the deciding factor is always jobs and physical security, not Church or State.`` But, don`t you think that the jobs and physical security (for all races, religions and genders) is a direct result of such separation? Today you are living in this secular society and reaping its benefits - e.g. no one requires your kids to recite the Bible in school. It is true that after 9/11 Muslims are facing hardship in this country, but can anyone honestly say that prior to that they had any problems in practicing their religion and culture the way they wanted to? Why is that what`s good for you is not good enough for your own countrymen? Why is it that while you continue to reap the benefits of secularism and religious freedom, you want your countrymen to dance to a different beat? To me it sounds like a perfect example of ``do as I say, not as I do.``

Re: ali87 # 33

In order to realize what you suggest and effect the change, Islamic studies have to be liberalized. Liberalized in the sense of political reforms and even more important than that, discussions within the subject must be tolerated. There is no use towards having an encompassing study of Islam as a subject, if the prevailing view in Islam is to deny dissenting opinions and use the threat of religion to silence non-orthodox opinions.

The debate within Islam, in the contempoary sense, is deeply rooted in a revisionist glorification of its past history, as genric formula for solving its future problems. Islamic studies are polarized between exteremes and in order to bring about a renassiance of Islamic intellectualism, a middle ground based on pragmatic objectivity has to be created. In other words, ironically, religion will have to be moved from the subject of Islamic studies.

Dissent has to allowed and tolerance in the discipline of Islamic studies has to be implemented in the society, because all intellectual pursuits are a reflection of their societal enviroments. The society has to learn tolerance, because otherwise there will be no tolerance within the discipline of Islamic thought itself. Lastly, no group should consider itself as owning a monopoly on Islam and its interpretations itself and must realize that being mortal, its opinions are by defination imperfect and open to critism.

Do the people have the power to change and make this possible?

No. Not unless the people reject their emotional state of intellectual myopia, which results every time the issue of Islam is discussed and learn to carve a dicothomy between their reasons and rationales and stop using their rationales as a substitute for their reason. People have to be dispassionate and only by being dispassionate, can Islam be studies in all its various intellectual and cultural perspectives.

Ciao

In a sense - this IS a war on Islam, a war to cleanse the islamic system of the cobwebs of antiquity which has rendered it unsuitable for modern times. The intense pressure exerted on Islam these days is necesary and inevitable and long overdue.

It is time for all muslims to get out of the victim mentality. It is time to reform - throw out Wahabism and Arab-centered domination of the religion which is regressive and exteremely fundametalist. Time to bring back sufism as the mainstream and only Islamic belief system.

#43 : we had the influx of afghan refugees in time of zia - not when taliban took over

#43: You are right about that proverb. I think all punjabis work on this concept

From India Policy Institutehttp
http//groups.yahoo.com/group/IndiaPolicy/message/2487
Date: Wed Jan 8, 2003 5:51 pm
Subject: Is the West`s military supply creating its own demand?

There used to be an old (and fallacious) slogan among 19th Century
economists that ``supply creates its own demand``. It comes to mind
when one sees the obvious excess capacity in the Western military
industrial complex being attempted to be put to use in Iraq: with
Tony Blair apparently ``calling up reservists`` in Britain in case
there is war against Iraq!

The Presidency of the United States of America or the Prime
Ministership of the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern
Ireland used to be august offices: they are being diminished by the
decisions of the present incumbents to make Saddam Hussain or Osama
Bin Laden their worthy adversaries in war!

Subroto Roy

Urstruly #44 I am sure you are a macho guy who does not need to suck up to anyone. After all you have already done your sucking when you filled out your application form for a visa to the US, and stood humbly in line to get past immigration the first time you came to the US. Now you are home free, and can thumb your nose at the same americans (i.e. ``gora`s`` as you put it) who let you in. And now that you are home free, you can complain about every imagined slight, getting that extra security check at airports due to (as you put it, ``racial profiling``) or having to register and get fingerprinted, and act as if 9/11 never occurred, and act as if homeland security is not a real and serious and valid concern in the US.
HOWEVER, all Pakistanis are not as fortunate as you. Many pakistanis are in the US are ``out of status`` (i.e. illegally in the US) and are now worried about the new registration requirements. They face the real prospect of deportation. And even this is mild compared to what other people have to face in countries not as civilized as the US (I refer to the burning of muslim families in Gujrat under the tender mercies of Modi, the rape of muslim women and massacre of men in Bosnia). Lucky for you, there is no such fear of getting burnt by mobs in Detroit. Indeed, you can go running to any court on civil rights abuse charges if anyone so much as touches you. So you can safely show what a macho panjabi man you are with your talk about sucking up to gora`s.
It was with the above in mind that I was arguing about on the other board for muslims to realize that this knee-jerk enmity to others (the US, Indians, Jews) comes with a heavy price (ranging from perfectly reasonable security checks as in the US, to perfectly horrible criminal deeds as in Gujrat as mentioned above) that is paid by other people.
If you dont believe me read Dawn, where the government has finally seen the writing on the wall and is asking mullahs to cut down their anti-US bullsh!t, in light of the ultimate price people have to pay. Some years from now, your own children will pay the price of your ravings: They will have a work environment where they will depend on the goodwill of people of all faiths (jewish, hindu, christian) for success. Reflect upon this a while, and try to get rid of your urge to demonstrate what a macho man you are, now that you are securly ``in status`` resident or citizen of the US.

...romair, go eat your heart out...

{Ex-IITian gives $5 mn to alma mater

TIMES NEWS NETWORK

SAN JOSE, California: As a stripling teen in Delhi in the seventies, Vinod Khosla moseyed around Shankar Market looking for second hand foreign electronic journals to bone up for his IIT classes.

Now India`s most famous tech-head in the US, Khosla, 45, did his wee bit on Friday night to see that his fellow IITians of the 21st century didn`t have to scrounge so much: he announced a donation of $5 million to his alma mater.

Khosla, who co-founded Sun Microsystems and is a general partner in the venture capital firm Kleiner Perkins, is late in the ``giving`` game. Several of his peers having already lined up to honour the guru dakshina tradition that IIT alumni have taken to heart.

But he more than made up for the delay with a windfall, which was announced at the Golden Jubilee gala of the hallowed school being celebrated here in Silicon Valley. It is the largest gift by an individual to IIT Delhi.

IIT Delhi Director R S Sirohi, who is here being feted with all the seven IIT directors, said that the donation would be utilised to establish a school of IT ``which should provide an excellent research facility for undergraduate and post-graduate students.``

Besides Khosla, another Mumbai IITian Avi Nash who is an advisory director at Goldman Sachs in New York, announced a $1 million donation to the Chemical Engineering Department at IIT Mumbai for research laboratories, endowments for Chair Professorships and awards for faculty and student excellence.}

Anti War Demos Across the US

If you are interesting in hearing the broadcasts of the march on Washington, New Mexico and San Francisco, tune in to www.wbai.org. On the East Coast: 99.5 FM

Anyone who wants to know more about Iraqi history:

There are sites which cite the Baghdad Pact as a US-Britain ploy to prop up a puppet regime. in Iraq and force Iraq to sell its oil to them at rates specified by them. Whether it was so or not, a look at Iraqi histor