Torkham to Wagah

Re: # 40

Q. Why did the chicken cross the road?


A `Beacuse it wanted to go to the other side of the road

TO the head less chicken:

Sometimes destiny stares you in the mirror and you are too blind or headless to see it. My suggestion is that you screw your head back on and pecome Proud Pakistani Chicken and represent the Aloo ka Paratha culture no matter where you are. Hope your lady hen and baby chickens are as travel crazy as you.

YOU`RE OBSSED WITH PAKISTAN. GET A LIFE

Thanks Sadna and Tahmed for participating in ongoing discussion on this topic. Perhaps, time will judge about the wisdom of either side of this debate. With or without war, Saddam must quit quickly for the sake of Iraq`s survival in line with its potentials.

Time for the headless chicken to say goodbye in a hurry!!!

20 Years of Solitude
by Headless Chicken

As the evening shadows lengthened on this winter night, preparations were underway for this Headless Chicken to be hanged upside down with two others over a boiling pot by a street vendor at Aabpara Market, Islamabad. Even his demise was to serve a segment of humanity who smoke cigarettes and drink this extra dilute chicken soup thinking to offset the effects of smoking on lungs.

As he started feeling the heat from steam rising from boling pot, the salient events of his life from the past 20 years were flashing in his memory. He remembered the day of his first date when he met his date behind the thorny berries bushes on the outskirts of Islamabad. It was love in the first sight and he squeezed her hand between his legs (chickens do not have hands). They vowed to love each other till death do us part and consumated marriage in split second over the bare Potowar land with only wild berries witnessing. As he turned aside, a big thorn stuck in his tigh and he started bleeding. He had no idea that his blood is dropping on a piece of land later to become the site of National Assembly, Senate and Supreme court buildings in Pakistani Capital. He, literally, had his blood in the foundations of democratic institutions of Pakistan.

Many years later, he saw construction of the buildings of democratic institutions undertaken by dictatorial Zia regime and felt like throwing up. Instead, he quietly got closer to an underconstructioin building and unrinated in its foundations. Again thorny berries bushes were the only witness.

Things changed quite a bit since he migrated to USA. Now instead of bushes watching his meditations and other solemn acts, by a sheer chance, he started witnessing Bushes making decisions about democracy in Pakistan. It saddened him and made him nostalgic to go back to the same wall and turn it into a wailing wall. More recently he had better ideas. The wall whose foundations were laid on his blood should be turned into a pilgrimage where faithfuls throw pebbles in symbolic gesture to hit satans.

The steam started making his juices dripping into the pot, tears started pouring out of his eyes with emotions and sadness of forseeing his fate in few hours. He shivered as he saw a man smoking K-2 approached the vendor and gave him an umpteen times folded one rupee bill for sharing the diluted headless chicken soup.

He started philosphical and religious thoughts once his lost all capabilities of normal rational being. He wished to revive the golden age of innocence and thorny berries bushes in his next incarnation. He started praying mostly in the languages he never understood and never desired to learn but he kept reading those revealed truths anyways. He went into trance and started speaking in tongue. The cognition attack followed and he wished to lsiten to either Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan before breathing his last. His last wish was granted when the vendor made a phone call on his cell phone to a Panjabi internet radio to play `AkhiaN udeekdiaN`.

His first love and now wife came with their only son to say final goodbye. He wanted his son to prosper and multiply but he planned to become martyr and die in Kashmir to make sure that his mother and father`s sins of pre-marital sex and conceiving him would be forgiven by god.

Sameer #69
``Rest of the world population was not expected to have any ifluence on US policies. ``
I agree war seems inevitable, but Germany and France have said they oppose war and Turkey is worried about giving too much help which it cannot ratify in Parliament and which may cause govt. MPs to defect.

At least from TV news media it appears the US govt and its public do not wish US to go it totally alone and people are advising Bush to be more persuasive than saying mindless stuff like `I am sick and tired etc`.

I am all for a wonderful liberation too, only I cannot romanticise it. Let me point out some contrasts here since you bring up Afghanistan.

a. The attacks in the US happened on Sept 11 and the US retaliated starting Oct 9-10th or so, within a month. For the Iraq attack, the deployment is taking more than 6 months and is not done yet. Iraq is a much more formidable military target than Afghanistan

b. In the case of Afghanistan, the fighting forces were nullified very quickly by
1. 1 phone call to a military chief
2. Some airlifts to move military personnel out
3. Bombing Kabul airport and destroying 1/2 dozen? fighter aircraft and a number of aerial bombings on antiaircraft batteries. No radars, even to speak of?
4. Still people spoke of Afghan `quagmire` until sometime end Nov? when the NAlliance took their first Taliban city, I forget which, soon after which Kabul fell. Part of this was because Afghan warlords are a loosely-knit often mutually antagonistic group of autonomous fighters who changed sides to the winners side as they always have.

5. After the latest Afghan war, there is world consensus/guilt about need to end strife and bring relief to the sufferings of Afghanistan. Its a totally impoverished country, there are no resources to control, its understood that only when peace and governance arrive, can the world powers then indulge in rivalry over pipeline contracts from Central Asia, nothing of interest to grab right now.

The contrast with Iraq:
1. The call to military chief worked because the Pakistani Army cannot rule its over its people while leading them to ruinous confrontation with the US. Its a difference in culture or sheer population, but this is not the case with Saddam Hussain. He keeps tight control over his army, and possible coup-makers and over his country. He has ruled over Iraq even through ruinous confrontation with the US, even survived the Gulf war.

2. Saddam has tight control over his Army and has on many occasions purged the Army of his opponents of different ethnicities and inclinations. So his Army has to fight to the death, or their former enemies will come after them. Falling into US hands when the US forces finally arrive is the least of their problems.

3. Needless to say Iraq is much better equipped militarily than the Taliban and which is a fully functioning state unlike Afghanistan. There was no infrastructure to bomb in Afghanistan, no raillines, electricity grid, powerplants, bridges, water supplies, ammunition depots, oil pipelines, oil wells, roads, nothing. Only some well-to-do localities in Kabul where Arabs and Taliban leaders were known to live and caves. There were no chemical and biological weapons.

4. US has no ready armed group like NA on the ground with clear objectives, except some Kurd groups? of ambiguous intentions. The US ground troops will have to sort out the chaos themselves on the ground. It will be extremely messy unlike the Afghan war lords who had tribal alliances, personal armies and local influence and can and could impose their will/peace on portions of the countryside. Once they decided to switch sides, they simply switched hats and Afghanistan was won. No such joy in Iraq.

5. No consensus on what is to happen to Iraq, who is to rule in Iraq. Every interested party in Iraq`s huge resources including Iraq`s neighbours, the US, Russia etc are greedily awaiting a chance to grab a share of control over these resources and each of these groups can create and maintain enough strife and political turmoil to further their interests.

Each of the above points of contrast is going to cost VERY heavily in civilian Iraqi lives compared to Afghan lives. How many? is the 64000 Iraqi question, which the US cannot be asked too often until war begins and every day thereafter.

sameerjb #69 you write ``. Iraq will soon be liberated from Saddam and his cronies. I hope to see Pakistan also liberated from military establishment with US help - without using US troops because to get rid of Musharraf and his cronies does not need to send in US troops. ``
Exactly how do you think US can or will help in getting rid of a man who presents pakistanis and the world with the following option: ``My Way or the Mullah Way``?

Ghalib Zaman:

``will bring Pakistan into the fold of civilised & honourable nations like Iran, Malaysia, North Korea, Cuba and New Zealand``

I love your definition of civilized and honorable nations. Starving North Koreans escaping to China..HAHA!! THAT IS SURELY CIVILIZED. Cuba. where girls sell themselves for a few dollars to german tourists to escape grinding poverty..yup...definitely honorable..Iran...where the Mullahs are despised and hated...and the younger generation is desperate to make good with the US..the NewZealanders would not be too happy at being in such august company.

Waisey, when you write of Leechurs, why don`t you include the Pathans?? They are known Homos and liberals have much love for queers. In fact if the Taliban had started wearing rainbow colored skirts and pranced around Kabul, the liberals would have bombed Afghanistan with dildos and KY Jelly :)

sadna #64: War appears imminent now. The time to debate its justification from US public point of view is fast running out if not already lapsed. Rest of the world population was not expected to have any ifluence on US policies. The decision to go into Iraq appears final with President Bush even hinting war crimes trials against those Iraqi generals who would try to resist hard costing Iraqi civilian casualties.

Once US troops enter Iraq from any point to close in ob Baghdad, the resistance will collapsed more quickly than Taliban`s collapse becasue, sooner one local commander surrenders better chances for better treatment in post-Saddam Iraq. If and when US troop actually enter Baghdad, the cheering from the crowd might match the cheering from French and Italians during the final phase of second world war. What a sigh a relief it would be to see Iraqi people becoming part of the world community again with opportunities to propser and not just survive as they have been forced to for the last 20 years, since Saddam went mad and invaded Iran. The miseries of Iraqi people are soon to be over with the end of Saddam dictatorship.

The case for invading Iraq or any other country on the basis of 11 year old UN security council resolutioin is unjustifiable. The whole exercise of basing it on destruction or recovery of the weapons of mass destruction is phony. Basically it was a decision to get rid of Saddam and the justificatioin was created to this end. Since I supported the decision of getting rid of Saddam and calculated better days ahead for Iraqi people as well as desis as a result of getting rid of Saddam, the justification for war, though phony, was accepted as a sacrifice for the sake of greater good. It does not mean that by supporting this war under peculiar circumstances becoming pro-war or conservative.

I really see this a jihad on behalf of iraqi people who are not in a position to wage it easily. Iraq will soon be liberated from Saddam and his cronies. I hope to see Pakistan also liberated from military establishment with US help - without using US troops because to get rid of Musharraf and his cronies does not need to send in US troops.

Ghalib Zaman #66 Your are too kind. I must note that before anything else I am an ``avowed, open and proud`` human being. And trying sometimes to be a good human as well. And that to me is all that matters. This includes not condemning people because they (to quote you) went to ``missionary,cantonement,and colonial school``, or because of any other generalization. Whether I am a muslim or a hindu or a christian is a matter of detail and not important.
I learnt all this from the Quran, and for that reason I am very comfortable with being a muslim.

ali87 #65 I am not sure I understand your point. I do see one specific question you have, namely: ``Have you made any effort in getting them out of the dictatorships of the many tinpots they live under. ``
I am pleased to say a resounding yes to your question: Please review my efforts on this board to convince my good (but admittedly a bit confused) friends on chowk that it would be good for the people of Iraq if the US were to step in and get rid of Saddam. Assuming you agree with me that Saddam fits your definition of a tinpot dictator, surely you should give me a standing ovation for my efforts. And instead of thousands of Iraqis seeking asylum in the US, and UK and Australia, you will have these countries provide home service to would be asylum seekers as they introduce a civilized government in Iraq (as they are doing in Afghanistan after the taliban apes were chased out).

#65:ali87

(not directed at tAhmed32---an avowed,open and proud muslim)

Good!
The brainwashing by the missionary,cantonement,and colonial school system is so much that the ignorants can never be convinced that they are not capable of using their minds.

If Jinnah had not attended the Sindh Madressa till grade 10 he would have become a margarine muslim as well.

The education system was geared to create employees , post seekers, jobbers & jobbery title-seekers, so-many-work under me kind of mindsets, parrhay likhhays, chewing-gum over paans, burgers over niharees, amreeki-lookalikes rather than Pakistanee-lookalikes.

Great changes are afoot. Unless the westoxicated muslims are given the boot by US & UK and the time of reckoning is clearly laid out and these guys are asked on paper ``Are you with us or them`` only then the problem will go away.

Those who return thus humiliated/honoured ( take your pick) will bring about a revolution which will bring Pakistan into the fold of civilised & honourable nations like Iran, Malaysia, North Korea, Cuba and New Zealand.

Until then stating a clear mindset reduces the effects of past brainwashing at the Jack & Jill school system.

#53 by tahmed32 on January 20, 2003 8:59am PT

What most people like you dont understand is the position of people who oppose US policies. You take the easy way out and point to the governance of the Govt of US. The people who are anti american in many places around in the world are least bothered about how tahmed32s in america are treated. They focus rather on how US polices affect their countries. Which does not mean that they agree with every tinpot dictator in the world. Why should sounding out agains US policies which hurt you first begin with acknowlegement of how US treats the tahmeds32 inside US. Is it the contention of the likes of you that they some how have to tame down their oppostion to polices that affect their lives drastically because tahmed32s of the world have found a safe haven?

Most likely the only thing tahmed32s and the Ilk have ever done is make their lives comfortable so on what basis do you ask for understanding? Have you made any effort in getting them out of the dictatorships of the many tinpots they live under. What were you doing when the us sponsered Jihadists were taking on the USSR. Now when the affects of their actions start affecting the comfortable life of tahmed32s you have suddenly awoken from the slumber only to critizise those who protest another attempt to order their life for the beinfit of outsiders.

That UK also had democracy more representative and rule of law while it colonised the many countries is similar to the US actions and your arugments.

sameerJB #63
I was arguing about how an American loyal to the US must think and evaluate the merits of an Iraq war, including its human cost. In a democracy, (opposite of what happens in an autocracy), its not anti-state for the public to exercise their judgement independent of their govt, its their constitutional DUTY to do so.

My posts were about how Americans loyal to the US and its longterm interests must think, because thats the argument you have been using, that what is good for the US has to be good for others. I was pointing out that war with Iraq is not necessarily good for the US and its public like past foreign policy choices of the US govt. have not been good for Americans. THe greatness of US and its success doesnot derive from solely the govt`s military muscle it derives directly from its productive public, and their political awareness, which is sleeping wrt Bush`s Iraq adventure. I was only trying to wake you good citizens up to your responsibilities to maintain this greatness of the US , instead of taking it for granted and finding one day its all gone :).

From India`s point of view, a war in W. Asia is bad because war always badly effects the Indian economy, either from a first order effect such as the petrol bill shooting up and eating up FE reserves and more severe second order effect of global economy taking a hit. Also, sorry to mention the K factor, but US inattention to S. Asia and preoccupation with Iraq will be the excuse for top people of a neighbouring country stepping up violence you-know-where, which is also not good for India.

I would guess the same adverse effects of war will hit Pakistan too, economy, bad business climate, worsening relations with India. From an Indian, Pakistani, third world perspective, the Iraq war is bad and the US putting itself and its economy and that of the region in harms way without making a good enough case is bad, thats my opinion.

Since you ask I speak with `identity`, as a `Hindu` as an `Indian` as a `citizen of world`, I donot think the US govt is being asked enough questions about their objectives and the culmination they seek for Iraq and Iraqis with this war. I fear the futile waste of tens or hundreds of thousands of Iraqi lives and enough US lives simply for an oil company`s bottomline(which is likely to get huge US taxpayer subsidies disguised as `reconstruction aid` to help it set up shop in Iraq anyway) and on that sole count I will continue to oppose the war.

Sadna #57: You made a good anti-American case by selectively listing worongs within the US government, public, media, foreign policy, think tanks, pentagon ans so on. An equally or stronger case can be made by selectively listings rights within all these arenas.

Second point is that you presented the case unconditional, under the blue sky case whereas I have been continously arguing for looking at it conditionally, either American, Southasian American, South Asian, Muslim etc but for any first timer at chowk, your post gives no idea of your South Asianness. Does Indianness only matter when debating India-Pakistan affairs? I have been trying to discuss its effect on India and Pakistan whereas antiwar gang is maninly fighting a moral war like fundamentalists, without taking into account the downside of it on various groups of people.

I think Iraq is very weakened state due to several years of sanctions on any new military equipment buying. The small arms of Iraqi military will not require extensive aerial bombardment as was the case in the Gulf war of 1991. The northern Iraq is already out of Uraqi hands with US military presence. Southern Shia Iraq would not like to take up on both US and Saddam simultaneously. They will prefer to get rid of Saddam first and worry about anti-Americanism later. I forsee about 100-200 US casualties at the most. But the option for Saddam to avoid war is still there. He should better see the writing on the wall and relinquish power. If President Bush is such an evil, why offer him the best reason to go ahead.

roohi Ji: I think your point of vendetta was true in the earlier stage. Since then, momemtum has created its own logic both for and against. That might have been a seed but it is now grown to `lal suha handwaNa` (ripe watermelon) of a problem. I would say same to Saminshah Ji that the current situation is well passed the discussion of what is wrong with the thinking of American public, government and foreign policy. How to deal with this ripe watermelon? Those matters can be discussed even in the absence of current volatile situation.

WAR PROFITS,

Kuwait war was the first profitable war, funded by various countries including japan, and at the end of the war, the US profit was aroud 4 billion dollars. It is widely believed that kuwaitis are still paying, in dollars for the cost of their liberation along with saudis for the troops stationed in their country.

It is more than likely that at the end of war, Iraquis will be given a bill for their ``freedom``.

Sadna,
Have you read `Political Fictions` by Joan Didion? If not, I think you would enjoy it enormously...

Sameer, Sadna, Tahmed,

What I find interesting is mainstream media`s begrudging admission that most of America is concerned and disturbed about the path that the Bush Adm. is forcing us on. As I wrote on another board, even CNN had to admit that ``60% of Americans supported war if weapons were discovered``. Thats a slowly increasing number which I suspect was scaled down. Ari Fleischer prefaced the weekend`s demos with the remark ``Dissent is an American tradition``, which I suspect was the B.A`s wayof patronizingly acknowledging the protest demos and at the same time defusing the dissenting nature of the march for mainsteam America.

Ironically it took BBC to present a decent survey of global protest and actually talk to the diverse communities of demonstrators. Note how while unlimited time is allotted to the chicken hawks, you are lucky if you hear a demonstrator`s soundbite? WHY is this?

CNN spun the weekend by having a talking head contextual the demos as par for the course; Americans have been known to oppose US secession from Britain, involvement in WWI and gasp! WWII, thereby, once viewed in hindsight, casting a doubtful light on protesters-didn`t WWII present a moral imperative for America? Whats funny about this is that Iraq doesnt present the same moral imperative for the BA because if it did, we would have cleared Hussein out of Iraq when he started mass murdering Kurds. And if memory serves, a Palestinian demo I participated in 10 years ago had a mournful delegation of Kurds marching behind us-my first exposure to Hussein`s brutality-I certainly did not know about this genocide from our good ol` media...

In addition, even fishpaper right wing press has

re: fishpaper newspaper press

Have started running editorials telling its working class readership (The New York Post: Rightwing middle class media elite telling the working class and immigrant pop. what to think) that we have come far beyond being angry about Pres Bush`s hook and crook ascension, the BA`s specTACular record of avoiding genuine military service, etc, etc, etc. What I`d like the Dems to do is to start impeachment proceedings-which they won`t of course, because of 9/11 and the impending doom we will wreak on Iraqi citizens....

SameerJB etc. - I might be repeating what someone already said (haven`t read the thread completely) but one reason given by anti-war sympathisers that I have talked to is this is seen as Bush`s own little vendetta unlike the action in Afghanistan which had widespread domestic and international support ... this would be a unilateral preemptive war ... a first strike ... many nations will ask (and are asking ... North Korea) who next ?

sameerJB #56
The reason why there are no pro-war rallies are not because of the majority being convinced about merits of the case, its because

1. The govt. is in favor of a war anyway, what is there to call attention to or rally about in favor

2. The Congress including the Democratic leadership has fallen in with the administration on its Iraq approach, the vote in Congress took place about 6 months ago, long before the public woke up to the issues, so the political leadership is not trying to score points off each other wrt Iraq, something like campaign reform, I suspect. The govt. is not the enemy of its people but its not a benign omniscient paternal entity, its composed of men, their limited visions and their special interests, and an alert public is an important component of democracy and the state to keep these men, their limited vision and their special interests in check.


3. The US media is also projecting war and its paraphernalia as a positive thing already, so what is there to rally about?

4. US public can`t see much further than its nose or its pay check or gas bills. These items will see delayed effects only after the action starts. But what will be the point in rallying against a war in the middle of a unwinnable war with uncertain endgame and soldiers in the thick of it with their morale at risk. That would certainly be unpatriotic. So if you want to rally, better do it now before the war.

``The sanctions as part of US foreign policy does not cost US tax dollars and US citizen lose one major justification although they are free to continue protest on moral grounds. ``

The loss of taxpayer dollars is only one consequence of US govt policy overseas. There is also openness or lack of to US business, public and government attitudes to US and US citizens abroad, these are hidden costs and consequences. The US spent $2B in arms and aid to Afghan mujahiddeen, it saved itself further expense by leaving in 1989 and not spending one red cent more, but what was the consequence of that saving? Propping up the Shah of Iran may not have cost much but what were the consequences? The creation of an enemy regime determinedly opposed to all US interests in the region, a role model for all anti-US schools of thought, a very longtern consequence indeed.


``The successful outcome of pro-war is a war with two options; either very bloody or not. Nobody wishes it to be very bloody. In the end it might cost much less in human cost if planning is good and Saddam support demoralizes quickly. ``

This belief that `nobody wishes it to be very bloody` and `good planning` is a fond hope, nothing more. Even the UN secretly published a report that 500,000 Iraqis may face hunger or death and widespread devastation and millions of refugees could result from the US war. Was there any reaction by the US govt. to such a report.

I donot see much questioning about snowballing or widening of conflict, Israel and other neighbours being drawn in, ethnic strife, Kurds demanding nationhood, conflcits over control of oilfields, problems with controlling Saddam`s residual Army, the possible use of nuclear weapons? How many things are thinking people taking on pure and blind trust here because of a general principle `noone wants a bloody war`? Everyone wants to win, and will pretty much do anything to win, not least the US Army.


The difference between a European/Western leader`s war tactics and a Middle Eastern leader`s tactics is not that the European/American leader is a kind man and the Middle Eastern is not a kind man, its the system of public scrutiny and the source of each`s power which is different, ie public opinion and institutions based on public opinion are the source of one`s power which also keep him in check and which donot exist at all to keep the Middle Eastern(for example) in check. The US/UK/France?etc are good people at home and were pretty cruel overseas because their public didnot pay enough attention to what they do/did abroad. Right now there is a legal proceeding for US pilots who mistakenly killed their Canadian colleagues in Afghanistan, and questions are being raised on targetting procedures and pilots` go-pills while there was no such legal proceeding or questions raised when US pilots mistakenly killed a larger number of their NAlliance colleagues. The reason is Canadian public will not stand for such `mistakes` resulting from faulty procedure, while the Afghan public is helpless to protest, much less ask for compensation or redressal.

Similarly, there is noone to create trouble for the US govt. if 100,000 Iraqis die of US bombing or hunger due to civil unrest instead of 1000. Where is anyone in the US administration even making a passing mention of their concern for the effects of war on the Iraqi people ?

Its for Americans to decide whether they want hundreds of thousands of Iraqis to sacrifice their lives for the sake of American prosperity(if thats the argument being made) or they want to make a big enough noise so that fewer die and the US doesnot get Iraq, West Asia and itself into a unholy morass of a war with unknown longterm consequences for the US public. The US govt. maynot be an enemy of the US people, but it is presently the self-declared enemy of the Iraqi state and its people.

As for US Army personnel, 10 years after the Gulf War a hundred thousand odd of them seem to be trying to get legal redressal for their disability resulting from the `Gulf War Syndrome`, something the US govt. seems very unsympathetic to them about.

I donot see any basis to be complacent about US govt. attitude to the human cost.

Sadna: Actually you have given the best answer to the question tahmed repeated from my previous post. Ana_dobarah also said the same thing on a chowk unplugged responding to my post.

US citizens have every right using their first amendment right to raise their concerns on any issue and they do it mostly during the elections although they often do not vote on the basis of foreign policy issues. I did not challenge the legality of antiwar protest anywhere for US citizen. My only observation was that majority stayed away as they do on every issue.

The reasons might be several but one of them is belief in the government as not the enemy of the people. One of the reason Saminashah pointed out is role of the media. However, it would be opening another can of worms in the middle of focused discussion related to antiwar point of view vis-a-vis Iraqi situation, though I agree with her about the role of the media.

Now, if US citizen have the right to protest or ask to spend their tax dollars more on humane and peaceful causes; those who disagree with it or satisfied with the government policies have the same first amendment rights. They should be heard in addition to Bush adminstration speaking for them. Would you like to see another day of protest rallies in support of Bush administration policies and accept it in the same way as you wish me to accept the rights of antiwar protests? It is a no-win situatioin. Ultimately, we would have to settle it on the democratic priciple of majority support. But I guarantee you, the issue of media bias and bully pulpit of administration would be mentioned as the reason for majority not opposing war. And we would remain trapped within this circle with going back to square one after every 10 interactions.

What is square one? Square one is to look at the successful outcomes of both opposing viewpoints. The outcome of antiwar is no war and the successful outcome of pro-war is war. I have been repeatedly making this point that no war is same as status quo because it satisfies the protesters who are not ready to protest for lifting of sanctions and saving another 500,000 children from death. The reason is same as outlined above. The sanctions as part of US foreign policy does not cost US tax dollars and US citizen lose one major justification although they are free to continue protest on moral grounds.

The successful outcome of pro-war is a war with two options; either very bloody or not. Nobody wishes it to be very bloody. In the end it might cost much less in human cost if planning is good and Saddam support demoralizes quickly. From there on, I am with you, Saminshah, tahmed, nasah and all well intentioned folks to see the miseries of Iraqi people coming to a quick close.

It should be the right of citizens of every country to voice their opinion about their national policies. Would Saddam also allow Iraqi people to raise their concerns freely, without the fear of losing head?

When you throw in the south Asian factor into the equation, it becomes a matter of preference. To be considered an American all the way and justify as an American, first amendment and spending of tax dollars is one option. Second is to consider how its effects will be felt by the people and nations of south Asia and the third is to strike a balance between both. I believe that remaining totally aloof from south Asia is unfair to chowk and large number of non-American interactors. Chowk is not read in Pakistan, India, Britain and Canada as presenting the views of average desi Americans. It is open to all..

Therefore south Asia should not be delinked from this discussion. That brings back to same four questions I raised in a previous reply to Saminshah, namely oil prices, democracy in Pakistan, its effect on fundamentalist tendencies and concern for Iraqi people. although one can throw in several other questions. I contended then and do it again right now that Pakistan comes out loser in a status quo - no war situation on all fronts.

As a purely American ground too, I wish to see consumer confidence going up so that economy can grow and poor third world countries can sell more of their sweat for survival. A faltering US economy drowns at least half the world population. From China to Indonesia to India all lose business with USA if consumers do not spend money here.

Speaking morally alone, no war is light year better than war but considering all the related issues, a sacrifice of a very noble principle now is better than sacrificing the livelihood of millions and of course, no resolution to the plight of Iraqi people.

Lastly, war is not imminent but fall of Saddam is imminent. Think about it!!! The democrats and other disliking Bush policies have a great opportunity to try to make Saddam fall before the breakout of war thus denying a big feather in the cap of President Bush. It is necessary to not do anything that makes Saddam more defiant. Actually he should be made 110 percent certain that his end is near through an all out assault on him. He must be made to leave under pressure before the war si a win-win situation for democrats, antiwar protesters and anti-Amrican crowd for the sake of anti-Americanism.

Many thanks to Saminshah, tahmed and Safwan Shah for taking part in a discussion decently.

Please put the head back on this chicken!

Ras

Sameer
There is one aspect not mentioned here. Its always taken as a matter of `patriotism` to accept and not question the US govt on their foreign policy pursuits. But does this hold true post Sept 11 when US citizens and their economy and NOT US soldiers or the US govt. `took the brunt` of the consequences of US govt. involvements overseas?

Shouldn`t citizens of the US consider it their patriotic duty towards their nation and other citizens to question their government on how and why their taxpayer dollars are going to be spent abroad, how the govt.s foreign policy will affect US citizens and the US economy? And what is the basis on which their sons, daughters and family members in the US Armed Forces are being asked to risk and probably give up their lives, is it merely for teh bottomlines of some oil tycoons who are also campaign funders.
Post-Sept 11 IMO a right to information about the consequences of foreign engagements MUST be asserted even by hyphenated first/second generation Americans.

CHOWK STAFF #49 Good to hear from you. Since you do not specify the points raised by any of us, and your views on them, I shall take the liberty of assuming that you agree on the important principle of freedom of expression and how the SOP (Single Option Poll) is inimical to that principle.
All chowk interactors, particularly long-time ones like myself, owe thanks to chowk for providing this free, convenient ``global south asian`` forum to give vent to our views. And the SOP on the Iraq war question is the only time I felt chowk erred on the side of suppression of free expression. However no one is perfect. And yet, the ability to recognize that one is not perfect, coupled with the capacity to listen to criticism and to change one`s behavior or views one considers that criticism to be valid, is perhaps even better than being perfect.
Cheers.

sameerjb #48 you write ``How come they always see USA government as bad and rest of the world good when world is full of bad governments and violators of all kind of human rights. ``
I think this is an important point that too many people from pakistan (and other countries) forget. And it is a point worth remembering. I think the US government functions better than any government I have come across (including the ``the thrashing we received in WWII cured our love of war`` German government, for example). And elected US officials are more open to listening to their constituents than most elected governments of the world. Certainly a lot more than dictatorships.
Saminasha #50 I hope you agree with sameerjb`s point that I re-printed above and my furtehr discussion on it.

TEARS,

It is hilarious to see the pakistanis sheding the camel tears for, what they believe to be, the soon to be dead of the iraquis. These are the very same people who have created the uncountables of pakistan. No one, not even a single poster has ever shed a tear, ever cared to put a number to the thousands of paki jihadists killed in kashmir and afghanistan. A nation that can create jihadic fodder cannot shed any real tears for others.

It is simply imitations of the white man who talks about the war and the possible dead. It is time that the people of pakistan open theor own eyes and recongines the uncountables, the thousands who get killed in foreign lands by the kafirs. Yes pakistanis are also humans.

Sameerji,
But why is it necessary for you to see an anti Saddam poster or placard when if given the air time, critics of an official war policy would maintain that again and again? Also, remember, that the critics of current US policy are the only people on the media who remind us that the US has been and continues to bomb Iraq in a stealthier manner-why is that not part of the mainstream coverage? I understand that there are constructive US policies and ones that are destructive. My point is to focus on the media and see what it is we are told/shown/presented with and what we are not. What is the responsibility of our media? It should be to present a diversity of opinions and positions including Frenchie in the street and Jessica Lange in DC and Lisa High School from Minneapolis, and Suheir Hammad from NYC and Dr. Physicist from MIT and so on...

Bravo SameerJB, Saminasha and tahmed32

You have raised and you have answered most of the open and not so open questions. All that is left is quibbling and we can avoid that easily.

As Chowk, we aim to strive and do the right thing. Striving we are and quite often we are not entirely wrong.

Some day, some of us will do more than Chowk has, can, could in the last five plus years. Whenever, wherever and by whoever, that happens, Chowk will be there to salute. Chowk will not change the world, ``you`` will - Chowk will just celebrate.

Much thanks for the sincere posts. We have all learned something.

SaminaShah Ji and tahmed Ji: Believe me, I care for 500,000 dead Iraqi children as much as you do. I do not wish to see another 500,000 dead children in tears to come. The anitwar fervor is not matched with equal passion for ending the misery through removing sanctions against Iraq which require removal of handful of Iraqis from the top. The point is that those handful of Iraqi leadership are not ready to sacrifice their power voluntarily for the sake of 500,000 children. They are as much guilty, if not more because these are their people, as the USA for the plight of Iraqi people. Yet, I did not see any anti Saddam posters and speeches on live broadcast of Washington peace rally on C-Span.

I consider myself progressive too. To me, progressive means believing in the progress and not a covert or balatant mean to express anti-Americanism. Nothing wrong with anti-Amricanism too as long as they call it anti-Americanism. Then, a debate is possible between anti and pro Amricanism. No nation in the history of the world has always been right and certainly not USA in recent times.

Where were peace activists for the last 10 years. Did they organize rallies for the removal of Saddam when USA was not threatening to go to war with Iraq? No, they did not. They were more interested against US pro-Israel policies, anti nuclear plants protests, saving rain forest and earth day celebrations. How come they always see USA government as bad and rest of the world good when world is full of bad governments and violators of all kind of human rights.

I regard Iraqi people more talented and educated than rest of the Arab world. I do not believe that by removing Saddam from power even by US forces will make Iraq a US puppet of Saudi Arabia kind. I am not at all worry about USA stealing all the Iraqi oil for free. Only way to save another 500,000 Iraqui children die in miserable circumstances is quick resolution of the problem. And when it comes to quick resolution, no other strategy is quicker than removing Saddam Hussein from power. Am I able to make myself clear?

Samina, I will fully support not 100,000 but million people rally at Washington mall as soon as Saddam Hussein is removed. A rally for lifting sanctions, restoring the basic human rights of Iraqi people, demanding US forces to come home and establishment of democratic institutions in Iraq in post Saddam Iraq is more intellectually and academically supported. Is there any country in the world whose political and national aspirations are in total control of USA because USA once forcefully removed a dictator from power. Not even tiny island nation of Granada.

Chowk is part of us. Any complain about their policy is nothing more than brotherly advice or mildly expressing opposing opinion. It is/ was not a protest. Chowks contributions easily outweigh any minor disagreement. So don`t worry and no need for chowk or anybody to be defensive about it.

I only wished for Pakistanis to prioritize their concerns. In my previous post, I laid out some of my concerns and glad that you agreed in support of rational against emotional. Iy is so stupid to see Pakistanis taking anti-Indian stand on this issue too, just to remain what Indians are not. I believe, Samina, you and nasah are taking a stand against US policies prematurely. There is always a right moment to take stand ( otherwise Muslims extremists always take their stand at the wrong time and place) and I believe the right moment has not arrived yet. President Bush and his associates must be extremely pleased to see the peaking of antiwar/ peace marches at the wrong time. On one side it wasted the resevoir of noble emotions and on the other gave moral support to Saddam to remain defiant. Guess, whose sufferings are extended by this move.

If US has planned to go in, the protest will not deter conservatives because the loss of some voters here would be amply made up in the south and western states.

I believe in making the difference, not wasting my sweat. I will sweat as much as possible, when I see that it can make a difference, i.e., immediately following Saddam`s removal.

Saminasha #46 I am glad we agree that Hussein is a scumbag. On the suffering of the Iraqi people you mention, Hussein and his henchmen claim that it is the US fault. The US maintains that it is Hussein`s fault, since the UN agreement permits him to exchange oil for medicine and things. Everyone agrees that Hussein maintains some a collection of huge palaces, and continues to maintain a huge army. I happen to believe that if Hussein really wanted, he could have prevented this suffering - surely if he can get material for his palaces and to maintain his army, it would be easier for him to seek medicine and nourishments.
However, it is not important what I think.
The important thing is: will the suffering of the Iraqi people increase or decrease with war and the removal of Saddam? If Afghanistan is any indication, I think war would ultimately benefit the Iraqis.
Incidentally, I hope you dont allow your opinion to be swayed by the street demonstrations, even if the demonstrators are fine New Hampshire conservatives. I try to base my opinions based on what my eyes and ears and brain that I possess, and so it doesnt matter to me that we have French intellectuals out on Champs Elyses.

Tahmed #45

In the past, I have not witnessed Chowk taking clear partisan stances in various international issues. I would argue that since this particular issue, waging war against a country that has lost 500, 000 children to lack of food, poisoned water supplies and dearth of medical supplies is not a noble act, no matter how distasteful Saddam Hussein is. If Chowk chooses to publicize a certain position they are joined by Canadians, the French, Russians, South Koreans, Japanese, Russians and the English. Even New Hampshire witnessed a demo- unheard of in the conservative history of that ornery state! How is posting International Answer`s info limiting free speech on Chowk, website of the chicken hawks? :) If memory serves me, the peacemakers on Chowk get their share of knocks...
Also Tahmed, you do know that none of us support Hussein.

SameerJi,

Admittedly, you raise some pertinent points, and I contend that it is this kind of dialogue that makes Chowk as rewarding as it is. Perhaps your comments will compel most reasonable Chowkies to look at the domestic policies that affect Pakistan a little more closely after being reminded.:) Btw, I remember at least two writers who submitted and published a strongly worded protest to Musharraf Sahib and Chowk posted it.

In addition, Chowk`s current stance is an important if it defines itself as an alternative and advocacy website. In the deluge of talking heads, propaganda soundbites and mainsteam media maintaining it`s apparatchikness to our current US administration, we need to support any medium of rational debate. If Chowk has alligned itself with progressive media, I`m sure most interactors will survive.

Thirdly, in claiming that Iraq is an issue only for the Ummah, you paint this issue with too broad a brushstroke-regardless of whether the Ummah is against the war on Iraq (which might be a bit contradictory since Hussein is considered a secularist dictator and has gone after the Islamacists), it is a matter of South Asian American conscience to advocate diplomatic avenues of negotiations rather than trumped up pretexts for war. Chowk also belongs to progressive South Asians who love reading your points of view (I do, anyway) but also find it necessary to engage in the critical debate that our govt. and mainstream media seems to deem pesky...our engagement in issues like Iraq also reminds people that there are other ways of looking at Middle Eastern, South Asian and American policy.

sameerJB #35 I think your correction to the Torkham leg (not to be confused with chicken leg) of the headless chicken`s journey is appropriate. In addition, the chicken would witness audio-tapes being burnt as the mullahs in power in the provincial government seek to demonstrate their grasp - or lack thereof - of governance, religion, and common sense.
And yes: I see that Chowk Staff quietly removed that ``vote no on war`` in Iraq poll that I was complaining about. This poll was no doubt inspired by that great contribution of Pakistani generals to political science, namely the Single Option Poll (i.e. you either vote their way, or you take the Sher Shah Suri Highway).

saminashah #39 Chowk staff are no doubt high minded in their desire to see peace around the world. I was merely pointing out that slip in their high-mindedness when one of them absent-mindedly presented us with a SOP (Single Option Poll) that I describe to sameerJB in the post I just sent him.
I think you forget, in pointing to chowk staff`s peaceloving nature, that freedom of expression is also a necessary part of a progressive society. Otherwise, all you get is the peace of the grave. Or the peace that prevails under a dictatorship.
Personally, despite all these pictures of demonstrations around the world that chowk staff now shows to make their point, I think there is much to be said for getting rid of Saddam. Even if this is not politically correct.

It should be named Shamless Chicken

SaminaShah Ji: I have never seen a banner on chowk against Islamic or Hindu extremists. According to their mission of purpose statement, that comes much before for South Asians than no war against Iraq. Since when Iraqis become more important than South Asians for chowk? Are they all Syeds or because they speak Arabic?

How long should we continue prefering Kashmiris, Palestinians, Iraqis over Pakistanis, Indians and other South Asians? It is really a ba ba black al-baqar (cow in Arabic) Pakistanis mentality.

When did chowk put up a banner for basic human rights (democratic) of Pakistanis when a burglar ex-COAS took over the country? The Pakistanis order of priorities depict inverse logic.

I grant reason for antiwar but not top priority, particularly of South Asians. Why should I support blindly an intellectually debatable cause if Pakistan`s energy bill is likely to go up as a result? Why should I support a cause blindly that gives extra time, courage and teeth to Islamic extremists back in Pakistan? Why should I support a cause blindly that indirectly prolongs Musharraf`s stay at the helm of affairs in Pakistan by virtue of his utility to US war against terrorists? Why should I support an Ummah cause when I don`t even claim to be a Muslim?

These are very important things for me to consider before signing on to saving one Ummah from another Ummah.

Q. Why did the chicken cross the road?

A. Relatively speaking, it was the road that moved under a chicken leaving him stranded in the seventh century.

Blame it on the road for moving when it was the nature of moveable chicken to control changing of position. Once the chicken did not move, wishing a change in his position from Y-axis to X-axis, the natural outcome turned him into a headless chicken. A variable made constant inevitably cut its head off.

It is not the headless chicken that is able to hop around the world; the moving world is constantly shifting its position. It is incapable of hopping India-Pakistan border because, euphemistically, it is not moving as well with rest of the world. Two stagnant positions - that of headless chicken and India-Pakistan border - make it a case of static equilibrium (scientifically), arrested civilization (socially), status quo (politically), true believers (religiously) and laughing stock (internationally).

Would headless chicken like to listen to a song about chicken? If so, listen to, `kukRa dhammi dia, kooh vaile ditti aa baang` by Mansoor Malangi - pride of the city of Heer. He can listen to it at www.apnaorg.com.

Tahmed and Sameer Bhais,

If you`ll reread Chowk`s mission of purpose, you`ll remember that they support peaceful alternatives of South Asian dialogue to the usual pragmatic war mongering. And I for one fully support them in this effort.

Rozaiba #34
.....And Pervez Musharraf would say, ``because the chicken was expressing the Kashmiri chicken`s inalienable right to self-determination``. :)

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

tahmed32: #31
I agre with you if headless chicken represent chowk-staff. They ought to be neutral in war/ antiwar issue. If it is by an individual - more likely now it seems - no point denying the right to express his beliefs on his own thread.....in his `own` article.

By the way, I wish to revise `Torkham to Wagah` now that MMA rules NWFP. [The bus is parked indefinitely at Torkham. It started with conflict among various sects to lead prayers for blessing for a safe journey. Mullah took one hour for two nafals because he recited longest surahs after fateha in each rakat. Once blessing was completed, another ethical controversy arose. Some people were wearing shalwars too low, below the ankles. When asked to lift shalwars above the ankles, some lifted too much and legs became visible. Now everybody is waiting for a decree from the head mufti at AkoRa Khattack to settle the issue: `where does ankle end and leg begins?. In the meantime, ablutions are broken and redone left and right.]

SaminaShahji: Next headless chicken article should be plaigiarization of Romair`s post, something like, ``Blitzkrieg from Amritsar to Aligarh by 111 brigade of Panzer Division``. Ich bin einen Luft......und sie sind dumkopf volken...gemachten?``

hc, nice account of journey.

i read this sometime somwhere:

depending on who you ask, you will get a different answer to the question:

Why did the chicken cross the road?

Louis Farrakhan will say: The chicken represents the white man, the road the black man. the chicken wants to trample over the black man.

saddam hussain will say: Because it was the mother of all chickens.

George Bush Jr. will say: Because it was told, `either you are with us or with the terrorists`.

Vajpayee: Because it was indulging in cross border terrorism.

etc. etc.

Why is everyone busy trying to cut off each other`s heads? Are we at Panipat already?
Its curious that those most exercised at the namelessness of the author are those who choose to remain nameless themselves (Urstruly) or post obscene remarks under multiple nicks(FARANGI_KUSH). Do they think we are so dumb as to be taken in by such hypocrisy and pseudo-piety? Why are they running around like headless chickens themselves?

Put your heads back on, enjoy the article and move on.

Veeresh
I read one of your articles on cars in the Outlook and another by Mr Baig in a flight magazine. Understood only the authors names alas, which I pointed out to my own parivar.
PS:do say sorry now.

sameejb #25 :-)
I think the CHOWK STAFF (I am using urstruly`s technique to get attention) missed my post since I am sure they would have apologized for slipping into fascist habits of our military dictators and provided us the option to vote contrary to their views concerning the war on Iraq, so I am re-posting it:
CHOWK STAFF: I notice below the headless chicken is a sign that says ``I vote no to war`` (presumably this is about Iraq) that one may click on. There is no room for anyone wishing to vote ``YES to war on Iraq``.
I thought such Hobson`s Choices were presented to the community only by military dictators in Pakistan (and Iraq too, per recent ``elections``) making a mockery of the election process through a single-choice ``referendum``. I never expected to see CHOWK STAFF do this.

with a little help from ``Bacchus``.The recipient of your good luck interacts friends and others. Got to chowk when my ship was just about to transit some very narrow dangerous,straits. It did`nt feel good not having the facility to pass on the buck to seven other jokers, before the danger was
past.So I sat down and prayed hard to Lord Sandwich ji to check out whether he had authorised anyone to send chain mails on his behalf and guess what ? He said that back where he hangs out ,there is no internet, yet! He had applied for for a TCP.IP or shell account but was waiting to be assigned a password. He also told me to use the terrestrial internet to inform his followers that this chain mail thing was being used by Bill Gates and Co to increase the number of hits so that they could get advertising revenue. He even indicated the involvement of Coke,Pepsi and the Postal department as an afterthought. But still, not convinced, I asked him if this chain mail by letters or email or interacts to seven unsuspecting jokers were approved by him to which he replied`` Son, when you get these ``pass on the buck mails``, do things this way, first send a message to them saying ``The buck stops here`` then use block
sender option, then get down on your knees, pray hard to any God you worship and then carry on with your life. Don`t confuse superstition with
religion. So,my dear friends, why should we propagate these things?Regards from your terrestrial contact of Lord Sandwich.

PS After the above mail I have got a lot of threats from the the Dung & Bhang & Hung Parivar, and also my own parivar who are also into this passing on the buck thing! I also heard that there was a
``Supari contract `` out for me from Osama Bin Laden and Samosa Bin Aloo!

I now have things to do. I have to start a website called Harkat - e - Jaalfrezi Rogan Josh Keema Mutter Baidaa Ghotala so that I, too, can collect some money.

This is not mine alone . . .

#26 Good sleuthing Watson ;)

Chowk staff,

Could Gulab Jamun Sahib submit the next Headless Chicken install?

Ghalib Zaman

inna lilla hay wa inna ilayhe rajaoon.


I wish chowk had stuck with the amatuer writers but they have chosen to compromise on what made them unique and great.

It seems CHOWK has suddenly become exciting and the desi kallu, bhorroo, and wheatish types, the ones having the engli-culture and litlecher delusions, baring their brandished bums.

O what price these slaves won`t pay to be free to be accepted as the massas colonised clone.

``Meiraa yeh haal boot kee toe chaat taa hooN mein
unn kaa yeh hukm daikh miray farsh per naa reeng``


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Urstruly:
(How would you write pillow-talk, in makhee pey makhee translation as a pAnjabi from Pakistan?)
Please access this and tell me what you make out of it. Whosoever posted it as an article on CHOWK may or may not be the `Headless Chicken`. The `original` one also needs scrutiny. It has some telltale signs. You can easily figure them out.

Printed jan.15 2003 Outlook.
(for your convenience)

http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20030115&fname=headless&sid=1


THE HEADLESS CHICKEN

Greetings gentle readers,
Do you care who or what is this Headless Chicken, one who seems to have access to a keyboard, to top it?

The headless chicken is inspired by Manto and by R.K. Laxman. [Writer`s claim -- Ed] The headless chicken keeps religion and sex in the bedroom. The headless chicken is plural and singular. The headless chicken strides the world with absolute ease but is unable to hop across the Indo-Pak border. The headless chicken is you and me and all of us but most of all it is like the waiter at a 3-star hotel, watching and observing and crying and laughing and hanging around for tips. The headless chicken plagiarises like hell from day to day life. Join the headless chicken.

The headless chicken paused to, as it is said euphemistically, answer the nature`s call, took a piss at the top of the world where the GT Road begins and that`s where he met a brother. This is where it leaked out into, while they were chatting, circumcised and uncircumcised.

Here is something from memory of past experiences. I hope you`ll enjoy reading it.

--------------------the article-----------------------------------------------------

Next week the Headless Chicken travels from Amritsar to Aligarh. Maybe. Maybe not. Did you like the first journal of the Headless Chicken? [We have reasons to suspect that the Headless Chicken doesn`t really care -- Ed]
____________________________________________________________
Is it not amazing that CHOWK staff printed even the outlook`s editors note as CHOWK editors note?

Urstruly: The plot thickens. I do have clues. where has nalaique gone?

tahmed32: Can a headless chicken lay egg is the bigger question. Laying eggs is by instinct whereas voting for or against or boycotting is acquired skill with experience. Some people have more expertise than others in acquiring this skill which is part of an undergraduate freshmen (oooops, freshwomen for my very dear Shahji) course called Democracy.

It appears that headless chicken does retain some memory effect of acquired knowledge of pre-headless life. For example it edited boobs to cleavage due to the ethics learned at AkoRa Khattack University of ultimate knowldge, little learning - mostly yearning for burning the turning of time.

One of the way to turn the clock back is to make watches that move anti-clockwise. This great invention of starting the clock at midnight at 24:00 and decreasing is so well ingrained acquired skill that it is even retained in the two curved tail feathers of the headless chicken. Who would have thought that a headless chicken would come up with the most effective mean to oppose US imperialism and western colonialism?

However, one drawback of turning the clock back is the undue importance of back, back in AkoRa Khattack. Because the back is now more precious than forward, it is more valued and better protected. It puzzled the scientists at akoRa khattack for decades to devise a cost effective technique for protecting behind because natrurally eyes look forward.

Finally an ingeneous way was devised to overcome this difficulty. It was a two tier approach to tackle this mother of all problems. First evolution eas deemed work of Satan because it forced eye sockets into looking forward only and second a mirror was planted on the lid of naswar container so that everytime naswar is taken out, mirror is used to keep an eye on the behind.

With such great efforts, humanity was saved from the claws of Us imperialism, time was turned back to past perfect and the pgilosophy of `behind before front` led to a sea change in logic and rational thinking. Now old was better than new, women were looking for older men and men were mor interested in older women. It finally brought great relief to antique dealers

Olympic games added several more supports such as backward merathon, backward running and backward swimming. In team supports, opponent goal was on the back.

Amazing! All this because a headless chicken retained the acquired knowledge in the tail fathers and used it in the best interest of humanity - back to the future. In the aquarian conspiracy hatched from the eggs of headless chicken, the scientific knowledge was lost due to its uselessness. Now when people traveled from Torkham to Wagah on GT Road, they knew nothing that certain foods rich in sulfur containing aminoacids or indole make the atmosphere in buses more smelly than foods rich in fibre and carbohydrates. Now fart was just a fart, just as fart was just a fart in the past.

I for one dont care abt headless chicken`s (who btw reminds me of headless nick from harry potter the ghhooost - his identity is so ambigous like a ghoooost) plagiarism. I loved the article! the good old days when khan babas were women-protecting man-loving(cant use the F orbidden word) naswar-eating men. Now theyre all jusy talibans!
looking forward to the next piece!

CHOWK STAFF: I notice below the headless chicken is a sign that says ``I vote no to war`` (presumably this is about Iraq) that one may click on. There is no room for anyone wishing to vote ``YES to war on Iraq``.
I thought such Hobson`s Choices were presented to the community only by military dictators in Pakistan (and Iraq too, per recent ``elections``) making a mockery of the election process through a single-choice ``referendum``. I never expected to see CHOWK STAFF do this.

So, Headless..er...can I call you by your first name, seeing this is the first time we are meeting..? Being on the other side of the barbed fence I am anxiously waiting for the continuatuon of the journey across to my land. Then you will tell me who Shaan is, as opposed to Musharraf and why he monopolises all your movies. Let me know if you find good nihari this side and we will all probably meet up. and sing old songs...har fiqr ko dhuen mein udata chala gaya....so much smoking you see....pleasant journey but have to warn you about a relish for tandoori moorg

#19 by sameerJB on January 17, 2003 10:45am PT


Try another attempt at understanding the foot note....


[We have reasons to suspect that the Headless Chicken doesn`t really care -- Ed] `

Thanks Chowk Staff

Indeed the headless chicken thinks that it still has a head some thing that got lost some where in the attempts of the west to subdue it and the need to earn a living and now lives on the tips of those in power.

headless...
what a fun travelogue! khush amdeed khush amdeed! though something tells me you`ve been here a while, perhaps with your head! Looking forward to reading more!

Soooooooo! It is chowk-staff. Thanks a lot. Now if you don`t mind, I am going to rate five star to this article.

Urstruly: The original post was not cut-n-paste job as one can notice unedited posting. As I said, I have no idea at all about chicken guy or gal but after making my position clear, I have no qualm at all about it.

I am also puzzled by the editor`s note at the end: `[We have reasons to suspect that the Headless Chicken doesn`t really care -- Ed] `

Okay people,

So what`s gonna happen to this little spot then???

Umer M.

Perhaps the headless chicken lost its head soon after leaving Torkham, having failed to duck when some khan bachha in the seat behind him abruptly hurled a mouthful of thick, high-speed, armor-piercing spit. As khan bacchas are prone to do sometimes while engaged in deep thought while sitting in a bus.
As for the moongphhali, what happened to ``anday garay-y-y-y``?

Ref #14 by Urstruly

Actually Headless is a shameless plagiarizer - you are very right. Headless does cut-and-paste. After all, Headless has a very short life - just lost its head and it is savoring life before rigor-mortis sets in.

Behind Headless there may be one or more writers of uncommon talent. If you or someone you know has been plagiarized/celebrated then please make sure that Headless knows your feelings.

Chowk Staff

What is this? Did someone plagiarize sameerjb`s post and played a satire on us or did sameerjb cut`n`paste headless`s article in one of his previous posts. Sameerjb has made his position ambiguos in #13. Who is the real author of this work, which by the way is not satire by any stretch of imagination - it is stereotypical and prejudiced.

stuka: I have absolutely no interest or reason to use another pen-name here at chowk. I don`t have the slightest idea behind such a `smart` move by some extremely `talented` individual. But I am not mad at all - it is funny. Could this be OBL after daisycutters took care of the head in Tora Bora?

temporal:
aaye haiN woh mazar pae, ser ka bojh utaar kay
mujh say naseeb acchay haiN maray mazar kay

headless:

very entertaining and tongue in cheek...this said with a straight face...we have been told you do not have a head...therefore...

...in any case...welcome...and i know you will feel perfectly at home here...there are so many headless inter-actors that sometimes...;)
...looking forward to the journey...

...t

Interesting

Ciao

I can`t believe it. Would anybody please check Harpreet`s last article, `A bus Ride to Chandigarh` and find this article as post by yours truly.

Sobia #5: The original writer of this piece is definitely a male - last time I checked five minutes ago.

Humsab: Eh koi meray naal makhol kerda pia aey (aaa for Sikhs). Per Aithzaz nu koi Aithraz nai. Aj headless chicken de hoye savere darsghan, aj din saRya (ja wadhya) langooga???

I can`t believe it. Would anybody please check Harpreet`s last article, `A bus Ride to Chandigarh` and see this article posted by a familiar chowk interlocutor.

Sobia #5: The original writer of this piece is definitely a male - last time I checked five minutes ago.

Humsab: Eh koi meray naal makhol kerda pia aey (aaa for Sikhs). Per Aithzaz nu koi Aithraz nai. Aj headless chicken de hoye savere darshan, aj din saRya (ja wadhya) langooga???

Sameer: Hmmm, would you be the headless chicken perchance??

Sameer Jee...Humsab is challenging your knowledge of the other Punjab. He knows not what he is saying.So ``jatti`` and ``tut paiNey`` are outdated??
Humsab: yaar saade board te eh dono alfaaz vadday popular ne specially
Jatti ;)

Very funny...

``The women love to call themselves jattis and beat all standing records of talking and making what can only be called noises with repeated use of ``tut paiNey`` as taqiya-kalaam``

Tutpaina is outdated and out of fashion. Not commonly used in this side of Punjab. Even women calling themselves `Jattis` is rare. Actually, most of the women even coming from Jatt Baradari will use the term `Jatakaira` when commenting on some gaudy colours or fashion.

Narration is absolutely fantastic! Great going. Keep it up.

Regards

Questions (undoubtedly stupid - please remedy my ignorance):

(1) Which present-day ethnic group has (primarily??) Scythian ancestry? I would guess Pathans from reading this piece.

(2) Similarly, who are descendants of Huns? Were the Hepthalites a different group entirely? What about the Sakas?

(3) Who were the ancestors of Rajputs, Jats, ..., any other recognizable groups of interest?

Yes, the Headless Chicken has to be male...all he talks about is food and women! ;)

This is fun! Eating one`s way across Pakistan! But how does the Headless Chicken do it? With no head, he has no mouth either!

Amusing.