History Rehearsing: Dark Ages of Islam

Ameer Afraid:

You have produced a remarkable analogy!

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Crusades
Christianity was leading
christians were on the bandwagon to their demise
Islam was leading
Muslims were on the bandwagon to their demise

Now
west is leading
christianity is on the bandwagon for a free ride
Islam is leading
Muslims are on the bandwagon to their demise

Islam is not eastern religion and Muslims are not easterners.

This article makes sense if the assumed parameters are accepted without questioning, like Muslims as one homogeneous group due to civilization and west also one christian group.

Muslims are in no position to spoil the party of their sister religion, the way Deng Xiaoping and Li Peng spoiled the crusaders celebration of christian millenia in Tian-an Man square while taking free ride on the west`s bandwagon. Had it succeeded, Muslims would be in lot more trouble than now - squeezed from both sides.

Muslims need to defeat Islam the way christians defeated christianity during enlightenment an scientific revolution centuries.

Fnatabolous!

Clean bowled!!!!

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Wow!!! That was an amazing example of piercing intellectual display.

Wonder when the three sons of Abraham will stop the ranting of ``I alone .....``. Perhaps after complete mutual destruction. Hopefully then mankind will not take the same path again. Till then lets atleast enjoy this sport of bloodbath while calling ourselves more civilized than our opponent. I guess our minds are so seized by this culture, that a recourse to seeking happiness ( a common human denominator I suppose) has long been buried under the jealous monotheism of abraham.
Adios

#4, sameerJB: I agree that a certain cooperarng spirit is required to accept the analogy. You did not have to bicker about the Eastern and non-Eastern though. Your point about Deng Xiao Peng etc. is not clear to me but I agree that the Muslims have to overcome their masjids and their profiteers - monetary or otherwise.

#6, Maharana: Did you have to adopt this cantankerous approach? In order to preclude the discussions from deteriorating to low levels we not only have maintain the decorum but also emphasize understanding rather than cheap excitement of mutual recriminations.

7 by Inquirer on June 10, 2003 2:27pm PT

welcome back

I agree with Maharana #6- the stated aims of evangelist Christians and Islamists are identical - political and religious overlordship over the whole of humanity in service of a deity who is purportedly vindictive towards `nonbelievers`.

Add to this the relevance of Jews in both mythologies and in the conditions for the second coming in both faiths.

Thus unless evangelist Christians and Islamists are hypocrites and donot believe their own mythologies(in which case the sooner this blasphemy is exposed to the world the better), there can be no compromise between them- only temporary territorial adjustments marking time in a continuous war till Armageddon.

By the rest of the world which will be watching from the sidelines, the price to be paid for this conflict will be less, the sooner these two groups finish off each other - perhaps the sooner they hasten their resp. Armageddons/Qiyamats through mutual nuking.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

sadna: Totally agree with your reply, particularly the opening statement, ``the stated aims of evangelist Christians and Islamists are identical - political and religious overlordship over the whole of humanity in service of a deity who is purportedly vindictive towards `nonbelievers```.

Not only for the sake of a diety, but a diety who was a big failure despite all eggorts for almost 1500 years until Roman emperor Comstantine converted and then Muslims helped the cause of diety until Spanish took over and helped the diety cause in Americas in rutterly uthless manner. Catholic Christinaity also played significant role in Veitnam against the vietnamese people.

Inquirer:
The Eveangelic Christians deeply infiltrated the democracy movement in China all the way to leadership position with Evangelical handlers sitting in Hong Kong manipulating the whole movement until it was crushed by chinese leadership. Had it succeeded, the door to salvation of chinese souls would have been wide open with red carpet treatment.

According to most historians, Judaism, Christianity and Islam are called western religions whereas Hinduism, Sikhism, Buddhism, Taoism, Confusanism and Shinto are called eastern religions. Just like Muslims, Christians are also found deep in the easy all the way to Philippines.

Tha analogy with crusades does not hold because Muslims are damn weak with total GDP less than France, besides other players are also interested in playing the game on world stage besides Muslims and the west. Muslims need to defeat the enemy within before taking on the enemies outside. The enemy inside is Islam as it is playing out at individual and collective levels.

You can not compete in this world with fart breakng ablutions and roughly 2-3 hours per day spending on non-productive religious practices while rest of the world is extending their productive hours to almost 24 hours a day. Muslims could only be competitive, if all the functions of individual and collective lives are taken over by robots and people have plenty of time for ablution, adhan, praying, fasting, zikr, chilla, maarfat, tilawat, hajj, shariat, tareeqat, fiqah and what not.

The dark ages will be permanent. unless you guys learn to approach others in the spirit of ecumenism and tolerance.

#, 12 macgupta:

I am an immigrant to US, but I totally agree that the first generation Indians and Pakistanis have to die out before common appreciation, understanding, and accomodation would arise among the descendants of Indian Subcontinents. I am willing to bet you are a young Hindu who was born/grew up in US/Canada. This is already showing up in interreligious marriages. I am encouraged by your last name and happy that you are a Hindu. Remember, you donot have to follow any religious leader to be a Hindu.

As for India and Pakistan, your statement stands: ``The dark ages will be permanent.``

SameerJB: You are right. The biggest threat faced by Muslims is from Islam itself. They should liberate themselves from the cult-like dogmas propagated in 7th century tribal Arabia. Reform or perish.

Ameer Afraid: Your analogy of the current terrorism with the Crusades is nothing but an attempt to justify Islamic violence against the West. Humanity is supposed to have progressed much more since the Crusades.

I do not agree that the current Muslims terrorism is a protracted battle against the West. The terrorists and supporters are already on the run. The US-led West is disproportionately strong militarily and has a strong politically will to crush terrorism.

The crusades had nothing to do with religion. The crusades were intended to end the muslim monopoly on the spice trade. It was the same basic desire that would make Columbus sail westwards to find a route to the Indies, which would allow the Europeans to by-pass the muslim lands and avoid paying taxes to them, they transported their spices across the muslim land.

Religion was merely used to sanction an armed aggression and to reconcile the notions of greed and murder, with the prohibitions of the commandments, the notion of ``jus bellum`` - a just war was created by Pope Urban II. In a speech to the Christians at Clermont, France, in 1096 AD, Urban II urged to free Jerusalem not to liberate it from the non-Christian yoke, but to increase the power and influence of the Catholic Church. The doctrinal divide in the christian church had already occured with the christian church breaking into two groups: the church in the west came to be known as the Catholic Church. The word ``catholic`` comes from the Latin and means universial. Like wise, the church in the east came to be known as the Eastern Orthodox Church - in Greek, the word orthodox means ``true believer``.

The original appeal for the crusades was made by Pope Urban II on the petition of the Byzantine Empire, which was being threatened by the Seljuk Turks. The Seljuks had conquered Palestine and from there, were making inroads into the the territory of the Byzantine empire. Urban II hoped that by helping the Byzatine defeat the Turks, he could reinstate the influence of the western church over the entire christiandom.

Two points need to made here, for reasons of historic clarifications. The word ``crusader`` comes from the Latin word, ``cruciata`` - the cross. The people who joined the First Crusade wore a fabric with a cross on their armor and hence, came to be known as the crusaders. Secondly, the area/land of Palestine was named such by the Romans, when they expelled the Jews from Judaea and destroyed the Temple of Soloman around 78 AD creating the Jewish disapora.

The Massacre of Jerusalem in the First Crusade was not limited to Muslims, but Jews and Christians were also killed by the Crusaders and the most tangible outcome of that crusade was the establishment of the trade routes between the Middle East and the Italian city-states of Naples, Venice and Florence. It would be these trade links that would usher in the economic prosperity of the Italian city-state of the pre-Renaissance period. Again, the crusades were more political then they were religious and their politics stemmed from the attempt by the Catholic Church to limit the feudal wars of Europe, by identifying the crusades with the ``Peace of God``.

The crusades were about cementing the role of the Catholic church over the power structure of feudal Europe and it is not a coincidence that the last crusade was fought in 1295 AD and with the end of the crusades, the decline in church power was commeasurate with the rise of the nation states in Europe in the fourteen century.

People, it is never about religion! Religion is the opium of the masses, because once drugged to its halucinations, people stop thinking and stop asking questions, making it easy for those in power to remain in power!

Ciao

#11 by sameerJB on June 10, 2003 10:33pm PT

sorry to disappoint you sadnas range of deities are quite extensive. She is not of the same mould as you.

I know the americans are working very hard. partying hard, watching hours of productive television very hard. golfing very hard and compared to that the farmer in both sides of the punjab is sipping lassi while frolicing with the madiens.