Can we Stop the War

Ghalib Zaman #39 I agree that sincere, disagree that I am innocent. :-)
But enough about me.
Agreed that terms like ``masses`` and ``common man`` that slip easily of the tongues of the journalists, generals, politicians in Pakistan indicate a contempt for those not part of the ``elite`` (read ``corrupt``) class. The necks of this class (OK, some of them) cries out for the guillotine, even more so than Marie ``let them eat cake`` Antoinette`s perfumed neck did.
Agreed also that the sons of those who ``live in our servant quarters`` need to become bosses before we can say pakistan truly belongs to all pakistanis.
Having agreed so far, let me now disagree.
I disagree that wearing a kurta shalwar and speaking urdu or panjabi will convert a scumbag into an honest man. As proof, I present to you My Favorite Mullah Fazloo. Examine his balloon-like stomach. Observe his royal cloaks. Or, to take a different example, I present to you Zulfikar Ali Bhutto. Observe his fancy nationalist Mao-collar jackets. Hear him rail against the west. And then go see how he put an end to pakistan`s economic growth by nationalizing every damn thing he could see around him. And watch his privileged children live it up in monaco and paris. I could go on.
If you are looking at clothes and language for a solution, then I am afraid you wont find it. The solution to pakistan`s problems lies in building character and observing values. And these are values that you will find in the west, not in the decadent mullah culture or the decadent VIP culture of Pakistan. If you dont believe me, remember that ``character is destiny``. The west is leading the world because of a basic character and sense of values that we pakistanis seem to have difficulty understanding. The west is not the english language, and it is not western clothes.
Please reflect upon this, and then tell me which one of us is the innocent one, you or me.

SaminaSha #38 I think perhaps your hand lands a bit too heavily on Ghalib Zaman. Considering that he is newly registered to the Chowk School of Remedial Education, would you consider giving him some time to reflect upon his views?

My Iraq war policy changes daily. One day I think it is totally wrong and US should stay out of it. Sadaam is a bastard, he is cruel dictator but he is no imminent danger to US so why bother..instead should concentrate more on other fronts..Afghan/Pak border and pursue the professed enemies first than the potential ones like Iraq. Other days I think this talk about war is taking its toll on people mentally e.g.gulab jamum..let us get over with it as quickly as possible. Yesterday I was thinking that may be it is only posturing to cause a coup inside Iraq and problem will be solved before any war. Most people, even anti-war ones, agree that Sadaam is a cruel dictator who has put his people through danger and has killed thousands himself...I think then something needs to be done. but why only Iraq...millions are in danger in other parts of the world due to food shortage or floods etc..why Iraqi lives have priority? I mean when was the last time lefties protested and lectured blue eyed people in England on the millions dying for hunger in the world? Lefties have their own axis to grind. That is totally understandable. They were humiliated and disheartened at the fall of communism in the world...now it is their turn to pay back to the great satan. Unfortunately not a single capitalist was allowed a visa to visit a communist country but our lefties from India and other parts of the world shamelessly file petitions for political asylum with INS everyday. I personally know a well known Punjabi leftist who was underground during the naxalite movement and to this day preaches against capitalism and the great satan but have no shame in applying for political asylum in California and getting immigration for all of his family. Our lefties are the most shameless lot in the world. now that is what I was thinking yesterday.;)

Today, I was puzzled why America is such a great satan in the eyes of the ``ummah`` and the ``marxmah``. If it is really a great satan then it is aslo the stupidest one. If the goal was to control the oil and subjugate the ummah then it already made a great mistake. let us go back 14 years when US was hands in glove with Sadam boy. He occupied Kuwait and we were all in for saving the Saudi butt. What US should have done is strengthened its relationship with Sadaam....congratulated him and made a deal. Here is the nukes and here is all the tech you need now go after these bastards next door. Imagine Kuwait, Saudi, Jordon etc etc under Sadam`s control and Sadam being our boy like Mushy is. The world would have been much better place today. We would get our oil. Sadam will get his ego massaged being the great Arab. Saudi princes would be serving burgers at Wendys in Bakersfield...Osama Bin Laden would have been hanged publically 10 years ago by Sadaam. No Saudi money for Pakistani Madrassas...no Mullahs..no Taliban...Afghanistan could have been saved of the hell it went through....Mushy would have respectfully retired by now and Pakistani soceity might have been a craddle of tolerance by now. Who knows... lot of possibilities.....but NO...Bush Papa had to show how freedom loving and nice guy he is (read please his oil buddies who were crying loud to save their ass)....These Oil executives thought they are going to lose oil if Sadaam controls it...these bastards were wrong then just like their couterparts in hi-tech now who thought even pathan girls in Tora Bora will be using AIM to flirt with their cousins next door. What fools!

Saminashah

No one should be stopped from posting his/her political views and this includes Mr. Ghalib Zaman. If you start censoring the political views, Chowk would become another one fo those ``thought-policed`` sites on the net. Till he doesn`t resort to personal abuses or crass language, it is okay for him to say whatever he wants.

why do liberals hate america? maybe this provides some clues:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/19/international/americas/19LATI.html

To some in Washington, particularly conservatives on Capitol Hill, the convergence of leftist leaders — all of whom, at some point, have used antagonistic words in criticizing United States policy — has raised concerns about a new pan-Latin American movement with socialist overtones.

``Indeed, Representative Henry J. Hyde, Republican of Illinois and the chairman of the House International Relations Committee, warned late last year that Brazil`s new president might join Mr. Chávez and Mr. Castro in a Latin ``axis of evil.`` Mr. Hyde also characterized Mr. da Silva as a dangerous ``pro-Castro radical who for electoral purposes had posed as a moderate.``

_ _ _Mr. da Silva, 57, who grew up in poverty, became a factory worker and helped found the Workers Party, won a loyal following as a leftist firebrand who railed against everything from international lending policies to the incompetence and corruption of Brazil`s elite class.

_ _ _His Workers Party, an amalgam of divergent leftist movements, expects Mr. da Silva to address seriously Brazil`s grinding inequality. Mr. da Silva has promised to improve the lives of his countrymen, pledging that all Brazilians would receive three meals a day.

Mr. Ghalib Zaman is an intriguing character. Let me admit that I dont read most of his posts. However from a few posts that I have read, I infer that he is a well read person. What could then account for his almost hysterical rhetoric he sometimes resorts to. Perhaps he is deeply anguished to see a lot of Desis nurturing a servile mentality. Perhaps he places a lot of premium on the personal honor and wants people to have a positive self image. Perhaps he wants people to nurture their own culture instead of copying western culture blindly? Of course his recourse to remedy the ills is negative IMO. We should definitely nurture our heritage but not by resisting anything western. Rather the right approach would be to learn from west especally on Science/Tech, administrative institutions and enrich our own heritage. As Kabir says,
one should not be averse to learning good things even if they come from a rascal.

#51:tAhmed32

[Yeh maybe you are not that innocent afterall--;]
but you are an avowed an open muslim...and that is character!
(Shall we leave it there ? thanks)

CHOWK does teach & tolerate a lot.

One of them is to be tolerant & admiring as long as it is be done in unglee-cultured way. The hiphop, rock, and alternate-orifice litleechur is their low-class way of telling us that somehow they are evolving inside-out.
Wishing salaams, eid-mubarak, ramadhaan, milaad gives the broomstick riding class from Indi-Paki the jitters & goose-bumps. Enjoying the blaspheming of the noble prophet uttered on this board & ridiculing Islam & muslims is what these (atheism, humanism, commieism, socialism and secularism ) margarine muslims consider CHOWK guidelines.

The commie/atheists aver `` We will start tolerating incest & bestiality when the goraas do it. We are watching in earnest. Until then our children content themselves being bhungee-in-unglish(druggies), exposing themselves like hooker or models (strippers), get repelled by the sight of any masjid or maulana (atheist/commies)``,.....but still visit DESI forums to flaunt unglee-litleechur. ``Who needs to think and be free by learning arabie, farsee & urdu when we believe in the philosophy of alternate-orifices``

1947---a parting story
(Duet sung by a mangy dog-bitch duo)

Chhod gayay balaam
mujhay haayay akailaa chhod gayay

O my garaa graa saab
vy did you leave me behind in India?
Vy did you leave India?
O my massa
Promise, did I not that henceforth I will not utter
anythin muslim, Islami, or arabie, farsee or urdu
O my Lord, goraa saab, here & in hereafter
mould me and my children in thine image
bleach us
we beseech you
teach us
we bespeech you
or
reincarnate us
you who know everything under the sun
make me your clone so that I be your son.
Then under thy command
I promise to wipe out all muslims
even though I lose this life
I know,
your bounty your blessing
will bring me back as another of you clone.

It is this class which needs to be eliminated from muslim lands----and the ultimate joke is that they are not even moneyed or capable of earning a living outside grants, welfare or ngo type alternate-orificing..
........`` please screw us deep and steep but pahleeze hump and groan in ungleesh``.

Tahmedji,

You are aware Gulab Jamun is the even more fried and doughty version of Farangi Kush, subject to oozing of gelatinous syrup at the mention of Islamacist references...consider him the Jabba the Hut Sahib of Chowk. Your sympathies, I suspect, are more motivated in protecting the hours of amusement his posts will provide than exorcising him of his bigotry...vasai, its your time...

Tempji, Pankajji,
As you wish...but I will continue to lance him until he behaves...

I am against war...not just in Iraq, but anywhere. There was an interesting banner at the march I went to, and I know I probably won`t get it right because of my sometimes feeble memory, but it said something to the effect of `war is not about who is right, only about who is left.`
Yes, Saddam is a despot, a dictator, and Iraq remains and has remained under his repressive rule for far too long. The Kurds and the Shiites among other Iraqis can attest to that. But a war is not the answer. The US government has tried taking out a leader before...remember Qaddafi.. with miserable results, and a death(s) that should have never happened. With the massive military force of the US, Iraqis will once again mourn deaths they should not.
Where I live...the future of education remains uncertain...budgets are being cut, teachers are being cut, classroom sizes increasing...in colleges, departments, or programs are being cut down to where one has to wonder how much importance an education really holds. An education that most of us have been fortunate to have. The economy is bad, I know quite a few who`ve been laid off (including meself) due to budget cuts. These are issues that need to be addressed over the war-drums that are sounding these days...our future is served better by this, I believe, than by a war.
A good friend of mine has given me pause to think about going to these marches and chanting anti-Bush slogans...the anti-war protesters, i believe, should be as vocal against the Saddam regime as they are against U.S foreign policy. And we as desis, should be vocal about what is going on in our own backyards, be it where we are now, or the `homeland` some of us have left behind. But I think it would be a mistake to label all of us against the war as anti-American. For me, nothing could be further from the truth. As someone who came here at a very young age, but old enough to remember the pain, the oppression and suppression that some of us faced in Pakistan, being here in America, being able to befriend wonderful Indian people, learning about the struggles of `minorities` here, all the opportunities that I`ve been given...I wouldn`t trade what I`ve learned here for anything, or the warmth of people here for any place else. And whereas we were silenced for expressing our political views in Lahore, we`ve experienced something quite different here in the US. . .and that`s something to appreciate America for as well. Believing in peace over war doesn`t mean biting the hand that feeds you. And no matter how many (or how little) justifications the US government throws our way, it doesn`t change the fact that for me, at least, there is no such thing as a just war. If Saddam has been on the minds of people in government for so long, then clearly other options can continue to be looked at as well...other than `this man tried to kill my daddy.

#54 by Pankaj:

Pankaj:

this latest incarnation of hydra jr. is about as intriguing as the other infamous hydra sr.


…what good is all the acquired knowledge, experience and education in the world if it is not reflected on your person?

…what good is it to know the price of everything and the value of nothing?

…t

...so gulabjamun thinks condoleezza rice, phi betta kappa, stanford provost, and fellow of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences is too dumb to do her job because she`s dark?...maybe gulabjamun from peshawar madrassah should be given her post? :)....

Well there are you are, ladies and gentlemen:
the little fried ball of dough sings...and what a sweet and gentle tune it is....worthy of Kabir, hain na?

Tahmed,
My husband and I have been working on a website in which city worker is publishing anti Muslim hate speech, among other inciteful speech. I was wondering if it were possible for us to contact you with some questions. Can you help?

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arjun...yeah...it does sound perverse, but there`s quite a bit of `that` going around these days. :-)

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Pankaj, Samina
n years of interaction have revealed that Mr GJ belongs to a school of thought which believes truth can only exist in hermetically sealed containers, whose walls are defined by Mr GJ, and those who breach the walls he believes are sacrosanct(say of religion, ethnicity, culture etc) are targets of his vitriol as bad people, babablack sheep, kanjar and etc.

If you believe that on the contrary, truth is universal and the same truth is found within hermetically sealed containers as well as everywhere else irrespective of any walls, you will certainly be his target. He feels very insecure when people donot adhere to written text and go in for ideas without text such as `modernity`, secularism or multiculturalism. I don`t know if Mr GJ remembers but once in his previous avatar he and I had a debate on why can`t the Indian Constitution demand that its citizens officially declare what their religion is, he felt it was very unprincipled and decadent of it not to do so.


For his quaint (IMO) world view, I have often wanted to ask him to find a museum cupboard and climb in for people to gape as an ajooba in an ajaayabghar :).