Can we Stop the War

dullabhatti #58: ``If the goal was to control the oil and subjugate the ummah then it already made a great mistake. let us go back 14 years when US was hands in glove with Sadam boy. He occupied Kuwait and we were all in for saving the Saudi butt. What US should have done is strengthened its relationship with Sadaam....congratulated him and made a deal. Here is the nukes and here is all the tech you need now go after these bastards next door. Imagine Kuwait, Saudi, Jordon etc etc under Sadam`s control``

I don`t think the US wants to subjugate the Ummah, as such. It probalby doesn`t care one way or the other. That maybe the by-product of some other goal, but I don`t think it is a primary goal. Even if it were, it would be due more to Israel. The USA only loses by making enemies with the Ummah. The only country that can gain by USA being an enemy of the Ummah is Israel.

The primary goal of every US govts.` policies is to get re-elected and keep its party in power. That requries two things 1) support of all the powerful pressure groups in Washington 2) a solid economy.

The three biggest and most powerful lobbies (i.e. groups with a singular Shariah-type agenda) in the USA are the National Rifle Association, the Christian Coalition and the pro-Israeli lobby. They vote like mullahs, i.e. in one direction, based on one issue. If someone bans guns, NRA will vote him and his party out (doesn`t matter what that person does for the rest of the USA). Similary, if someone isn`t blatantly pro Israel, the Jewish lobby will get him and his party voted out (doesn`t matter if he turns the USA into a utopian country). etc.

The economy is really the only thing that the non-lobbyist (i.e. non-Shariah common folk) American voters are concerned about. And that is tied to oil, i.e oil is on top of the economy food chain of the world. And eleven out of the twelve countries with oil (OPEC) are Muslim, as are most of the central Asian countries with reserved. As they say in the White House every morning, ``Allah be praised.``

So, common sense dictates that the US should send its dollars and techno gadgets and Polo shirts to the Arabs and the Arabs should send their oil to the US. Should be a great relationship. Both have what the other wants, and both have no geographical conflict with the other. But wait. What about the powerful pro-Israeli lobby?

If all the Arabs start wearing Polo shirts, then the US will become an Arab ally, and who in the world will protect Israel and its UN and Human Rights violations. So this lobby has to make sure that the Arab and the USA stay in conflict. It has succeeeded in this extremely well. So much so that now this conflict has developed a life of its own, independent of Israel. Bad for USA, really really bad for Arabs, but great for whom. You guessed it.

As for the oil, the US economy has been rolling along fine, and barring a few days per 20 years, there has never been a shortage of oil in the US (Actually the US only gets a minor percentage of its oil from Middle East, but its economy is dependent on other Western nations that rely on Middle Eastern oil). Hence, the oil problem is solved and has been solved for a while, with or without Saddam. How was this problem solved?

Simple. Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia, the center of all Islamic extremism, and closest buddy of the USA (second only to Israel) has 26% of the world`s oil. It can feed the US till forever and ever, even if the rest of the world cuts off its oil supply. Infact, every time the US has needed extra oil pumped into the market, the, ``enlightened`` Saudi ruling family has done so, at the drop of a baseball hat while doing the Texas two-step. So all the US needs to do is to sell its techo-gadgets, dollars and Polo shirst to Saudi Arabia, and it will have enough oil. The rest of the OPEC countries are irrelevant, as long as Saudis are selling. And Saudis sell like crazy to the USA and buy Polo shirts like crazy, while simultaneously paying lip-service to the Palestinian cause.

So while the rest of the Muslim world, including innocent little Pakistan which has never killed an American, and had nothing to do with WTC and Beirut and Kenya (and any other attack on the USA) is on every US hit list, Saudi Arabia the birthplace of Islamic terrorism is not on any list. Makes a lot of sense, doesn`t it? And Saudi Arabia is intelligent enough to never pressure the USA on Israel by cutting off its supplies (if the Saudis cut off oil supplies for one month, either they would be invaded, or their would be a free Palestine). They just yell and scream a lot about Palestine - nothing more.

So where does Uncle Saddam fit into all of this, and why fight the guy in the first Gulf War, to begin with? Well, he does have 11% of the world`s oil. But we have seen that as long as the Saudis are dancing, the 11% doesn`t matter much. But he had one more thing, which the Saudis didn`t have. He had a huge army and could have run over Kuwait and Saudi Arabia in a day. Saudis can`t fight a moth on their own and would have had no shot against a huge Iraqi Army. The Kings rely on Americans (and previously Pakistanis and Egyptians) to protect them.

What would happen if Saddam controlled the Saudi and Iraqi and Kuwaiti oil? He would control 40% of the oil of the world. The guy would be more powerful than Arnold Schwazznegar. Iraq would be a superpower to rival China. That could not happen. One country cannot control more than 26% of the world`s oil and that too only if it pro-USA.

Added to this was the fact, that the Saudis had slowly started telling the US military to vacate Saudi Arabia. What better way to ensure a military presence in the Middle East than to have a war, and to have the Saudis pay for the whole war. Hence the first Gulf War, in which the USA, ``allowed`` Iraq to invade Kuwait. And then kicked its butt. Killed two birds with one stone, i.e. militarily back into the Middle East, and no chance of one person controlling so much oil. Oh yeah, and Kuwait got liberated as a by-product. Saddam, for some strange reason waited on the Saudi border, instead of invading and taking over the country - which he could have done easily, since the US had no deployment there at that time. Instead he considered it wise to let the US build up its bases in Saudi Arabia, and then attack him. Either the guy is a CIA agent, or he has the poorest military advisors in the world.....

But what about the WMDs? If any Middle-Eastern country develops WMDs, it would not effect the USA much (since no Arab country is going to be able to develop a delivery system to reach the USA), but Israel has had it. That is why, only the USA (because of Israel) and Israel are concerned about WMDs while the rest of the world doesn`t seem quite as threatened or worried - even Irani, Kuwaitis and Saudis aren`t worried. One would think the US should be less worried than them.

There are (were) three countries next in line to produce WMDs. They are Iraq and Iran and N. Korea. And lo and behold, all three are on the US axis of evil. N. Korea called the US bluff and now knows it can produce WMDs to its heart`s desire because no one in that region (including S. Korea) is going to allow its own country to be destroyed in the cross-fire, to fight a US war. N. Korea is actually going to get aid now from the USA, for threatening the USA. What a brilliant move by North Korea. It got the USA to back-off in a day.

Iraq is now going to be wiped out by the USA (again). So whatever little chance there was in Saddam`s mind of producing WMDs will be gone. And since the Saudi population would probably elect OBL over Kind Fahd as their leader if it had a choice, that threat will be gone also. So even if Saudis get toppled, the new pro-US (he will be pro-US I gaurantee, even if he is non-democratic). Expecting the Iraqis to elect a pro-US guy into power democratically is a bit of a long shot. Specially since they have bombed to the stone age by the USA. The non-democratic pro-US guy in Iraq will ensure that the supply of oil keeps going for the USA and its allies. Until he becomes anti-US due to public pressure, and then we will have another coup or war.

Where does this leave poor old Iran. A country that may have WMDs in five years or so. Iran is the next target. Because if it gets WMDs, well Israel has had it also.

After that, the Israelis would like the US to target Pakistan, since it already has WMDs and Israel must be scared that Pakistan could start dishing them out. But I think that is where USA will draw the line and say, it cannot fight with everyone, and will convince Israel that Pakistan is not that much of a threat to Israel.

So it is not a war against the Ummah (seriously). But it has turned into one, due to by-product events.

Foreign policies are decided on hard economic and political realities. The talk about, ``freeing women from Taliban,`` and ``Freeing the Kurds,`` and ``civlizing the native South Asian`` and ``Democratizing Iraq`` etc. are smokescreens to sell these policies to the common population.

Sadaam: ``Last week, he said U.S. troops would be routed at the gates of Baghdad if they tried to attack the Arab country of 23 million.``

Basically this great mujahd like his other brothers is already accepted to leave rest of the country to the rotten satans and be satisfied with holding part of Baghdad where his butt rests.

Ana-dobarah: Good post. I agree with most of your sentiments about America. Desis who hate America are welcome to do so but I, just like you, had not enjoyed the freedom, respect and pride in my own homeland that I have here. Of course we didn`t had the fortune to be ahle-sunnat in pakistan or saffron brigadiers in India.

Of course not every Anti-war protestor is anti-american but many of them are....how many times we see white homosexuals and Arbi Mullahs agreeing on the same thing? Ideologically these two should be on each other`s throat but what brings them together is one`s hate of Bush and other`s hate of America hiding behind the banner of No War. Thats why it becomes even more important for loyal Americans to protest against the war in a manner and at a venue which does not bolster the dictator in Baghdad plus they must propose a solid alternative to the war. Just saying No War is not the solution. Even if there is no war, problem still demands a solution. Debate is, and indeed a valid one, that War is not the solution...Most Americans agree on the problem.

#54pankaj

[As one with a Masters in Chemical Engineering to another]

Science---yes . As many languages yes! Do what Chinese, Germans, French and every other respectable, progressive, honourable nation is doing. Learning other language after conducting all business in their OWN language.

Indian IIT stuff is nothing but a catering to others game-plan and every effort is being made to look `evolved` like the Mollywood film industry. It would be a nice study to figure out hown many bytes of chips can provide how many bites of bread to the starving & freezing millions around Dehli alone.
They do not have time to waste to become hookers of Bookers or gerbils of Nobels in a field called unglee-LitLeechur. Only those from slavelands do it.



Westoxicated by artsy fartsy ghetto subjects like sociology/polisci and unglee-litlechuree is a feeble albeit fashionable attempt to pass themselves as `parrhay-likhhay` among desis.

The command over the english language which Iqbal & Faiz had is no secret. What is also absolutely NO secret that they never ever even so much as attempt to write poetry in english--essays yes, poetry never! They could have at least translated their own work, but they knew something these marooned-muslims don`t---------- and I am in no rush to educate these clowns. It is far mor fun to nettle & rattle them.

PS:Kabeer was certainly right. If these clowns/clownees can learn even an iota from this rascal they would at least find out how ignorant they really are.

re #67
By the way, GhalibZaman sahab, Ghalib used to write persian poetry when persian was the foreign language of the (`parrhay-likhay`) elite in India. Was it ok for him to do that? or did that make him a kanjar, a clown or whatever your adjective de jour is for desi people who commit the cardinal sin of writing in the language of current elite of sub-continent.
regards

#68:mastram

Conquest has its privileges....a 1000 years is a record is guiness stuff for all times now.

US has no reason to use native-american language as official language. Those who assert do get spanish and french as official languages in certain states.

When was the last time Hindostaan conquered anything? And if memory serves me right the Englishman was hated & despised and booted out. No?

Reply #55: ``My Iraq war policy changes daily. One day I think it is totally wrong and US should stay out of it.....Other days I think this talk about war is taking its toll on people mentally e.g.gulab jamum..let us get over with it as quickly as possible.``

The real tragedy of the US war is not that the debate is being won by the war-mongers and being lost by the war-opposers in the US.

The real tragedy is that there is a debate needed at all. The world is a sick and disgusting place if the lives and deaths of people half-way around the world are decided by how Americans living in the comfort of their homes happen to feel on a given day. This shouldn`t even be a debatable topic.

``Well, today I feel like Iraq should be bombed to smithereens because I felt that the guy supporting the attack on Nightline was more convincing, so lets attack.``

``Well, I had a tough day, and I thought the guy on CNN saying we shouldn`t attack was better, so we shouldn`t attack.``

``Well maybe if the civilian casualities are less than 10,000 its ok to attack. After all, we are doing it for the good of the people of Iraq.``

``Yeah, but if they are little more than 15,000, then maybe I will withdraw my support.``

``It`s just so tough to decide. Well I have to go to my Save the Whales fundrasier.``

All I can say is that there is no threat to the USA from Iraq, at all. Iraqis have never killed a single American, nor dropped a single bomb on the USA in the history of the World. I hope all the Americans debating this attack, realize that they are not God, and that there is a real God. And I hope He is watching as his creations are going to be killed, due to no fault of their own, by a people trying to play God.

At the very the very least, the war-mongers should support a poll in Iraq to find out what the Iraqi people`s view is regarding an attack by the USA, before stating that they are doing this for the benefit of the Iraqis. But then again, such a poll may provide information that would be contrary to the statements of those playing God.

Looking at the history of the world, the best favor the US could do to any region of the world is to stay out of it completely. Propping up rulers and then taking them down, then propping new ones up and taking them down has caused a great deal of harm to the people in those regions.

Mastram, Sadna, Rsax,

Actually, it figures that his piddling hard science masters is one he is clutching onto when he is soundly trounced at matters he is clearly intellectually ill equipped for. As for the Farsi pedigree, my mother learned it as a school girl in UP and with her Ph.D in Microbiology, easily shows this idiot for the limp wristed chump that he is. I guess thats what is so amusing for me...he threw his underwear at poor Hobbyty during one painful dialogue that Hobbyty was having with , er, everyone, and yet continued to carry on like a demented dyed blonde until someone had to (okay, me) pull him off the sidelines and slap some sense into him...and yet, here he carries on, with his little troll to serve chorus...Sadna, your debate with him must have provided much material for psych. studies....

correction #64: Eleven countries in OPEC, out of which ten are Muslim. Not eleven out of twelve.

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GhalibZaman

I believe that the people who have character and a sense of pride in one`s heritage will be the ones that will take any country/nation forward. Neither the defeatists/pessimists/whiners nor those who stand aloof on a high pedestal delivering sermons to the ``inferior`` natives will be of any help. It is important that we Indians appreciate our cultural heritage and honor our heroes. For the nations who dont have a civilizational awareness are bound to toss around like a dead leaf against the winds of time. Therefore I strongly support teaching young kinds of India about the scientific achievements of Aryabhatta, Brahmagupta, Varahmihir, Bhaskaracharya...; the philosophy of Upanishdas, Geeta, Sankara, Nagarjuna, Ashwaghosh, Sufi saints.......

However if you look at the golden eras of different civilizations, you will find certain things in common: a relatively open society, high value associated with intellectual pursuits and an egalitarian(relatively) polity. I have read the translated Kitab-ul-Hind of Al Khwarizmi. He shows great curiosity and respect for Indian mathematical knowledge. He borrowed what was good in Indian mathematics whle making his original contribution. Abbasid Arabs borrowed knowledge from Greeks and India and built upon it. During medieval era, west borrowed from Arabs and Chinese and made its great fundamental contribution. This is the path we should also adopt. India has not made any signoficant contribution to science/tech in the last 800 years. It is time we close this gap by doing what every successful civilization has done before; borrow from the west and build upon this knowledge. For this we have to move towards more open and egalitarian society critical to diffusion of knowledge, and work harder than everyone else. Of course we shall preserve and maintain our unique cultural heritage but culture is a dynamic thing and should evolve with time. Culture, when stagnant, starts rotting stifling creativity for want of waves of fresh ideas. I am afraid you are misinterpreting this process of learning from the west. Evolution will not occur if we shield our culture from the west; rather the rot would commence.

PS: I hope you understand the point I am making. Tagore said it much better in his legendary poem:

Where the mind is without fear and the head is held high
Where knowledge is free
Where the world has not been broken up into fragments
By narrow domestic walls

Where words come out from the depth of truth
Where tireless striving stretches its arms towards perfection
Where the clear stream of reason has not lost its way
Into the dreary desert sand of dead habit

Where the mind is led forward
Into ever-widening thought and action
Into that heaven of freedom, let our minds awake

re #73
Conquest has its previleges...

Exactly, Sir. American culture and English language have conquered the minds of large number of people in the world. Your culture has lost. It had lost when Bahadur Shah Zafar had started prostating before lowly English soldiers. It had lost when Sir Sayyid Ahmed Khan realized that aping the English is the best way for South Asians muslims. Learn to live with it.
And you did not answer my question, if the use of English to write poetry by modern day South Asians makes them clowns, did using Persian make Ghalib a clown or not? Yes or no would suffice.
Don`t try to draw equivalence between India in 1800s and US. Afghan and Turkic tribes could not do to India what Europeans did to North America.
Common people in Indian never used farsi as their language. The language of delhi and its surrounding areas was khari boli, the precursor of modern day hindi. Ghalib chose to write in the language of the elite just as say Vikram Seth does now. Vikram Seth`s choice is as valid as Ghalib`s was.

saminasha #58 I am not sure what I would be able to contribute, or even what this web-site is about, but I will try to answer any questions you may have the best I can.

From today`s HBL

Are Musharraf`s fears for real?
Rasheeda Bhagat



We like to think — or rather we comfort ourselves with the thought — that the West, especially the United States, is caught in a frenzy of Muslim-bashing. We try not to realise that our own condition, a mixture of ineptitude and backwardness, is an invitation to bashing. We are not the victims of a cosmic conspiracy. We are responsible for our backwardness ourselves.

SO WROTE the Pakistani columnist Ayaz Amir in his weekly column in the Pakistani daily Dawn dated January 17, a full 48 hours before the Pakistan President, Gen Pervez Musharraf, made the rather startling — for his countrymen, that is — — statement that after the US had done with Iraq and its President Saddam Hussein, there was ``impending danger`` of Pakistan being the next target of the ``Western forces.``

Addressing a distinguished group of Pakistani businessmen and industrialists in Lahore on Sunday, he painted the doomsday scenario that when this happened ``we`ll have to work on our own to stave off the danger. Nobody will come to our rescue, not even the Islamic world.``
(more)

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/stories/2003012200060800.htm

romair: I am not deciding the war. In fact the ones who are protesting are not deciding either...they are merely protesting against something that they have no control over. My deciding moment was over 2 years ago when I voted against Mr Bush and his party...from top of the ballot to the bottom..all the way.

>>At the very the very least, the war-mongers should support a poll in Iraq to find out what the Iraqi people`s view is regarding an attack by the USA, before stating that they are doing this for the benefit of the Iraqis. But then again, such a poll may provide information that would be contrary to the statements of those playing God. <<

Dear sir, first please come down to earth and tell us what kind of results would you want in this poll? 98% like Sadaam got few months ago or 97.5% like Musharraf did few months ago. dubbi taaN je saah na ayea! If Iraqi ppl could go to poll freely phir problem ki ay? We will not know yet what iraqis have to say but I can pretty much guess you will be disappointed when they spoke.

GhalibZaman #56 I thought you were new on chowk, but it appears you have quite a fan club here.