Once Upon A Time: When The World Spoke Arabic

#50 by pmishra2 on January 28, 2003 9:05am PT

Firstly the achivements are like you yoursleves say relative. When you want to compare sucesses you want to compare with the nehibourhood and want to give the usual excuses for india. However you are not generous enough to give acknowlege these same excuses for other countries. why?

Is india so much different from other countries? In fact it ranks very low in almost every index. As for democracy it is fine but just dont forget to ask the opinon on this to the gujrati muslim whose whole family was burnt. Just dont forget to ask Whatis the opinon of Modi or Bal Thakery.

It doesnt affect you perhaps if it affected you then you would have been saying the same things Im saying.

Think about it..

If you were discriminated in US because of religion would you be singing praises about its democracy while your relatives were burnt?

Think clearly about it....

#50 by pmishra2 on January 28, 2003 9:05am PT
mishrajee Im waiting for the next repeat of Janab naqvis article for the upteenth time..

Please dont disappoint me...

Something worth printing and saving. Also distribute and publish to as many as you know. The Cyber-mujahid is no less important.

(The predjuced hindus are less of an enemy than the margarine-muslim-----the one who is afraid to `out` himself or `in` himself.Flush him out )
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A lot of answers to the EDUCATED (not learned but EDUCATED) ones who have gladly mortgaged every pore & orifice to the coloniser-masters.

`Just do it---in english please`.
____________________________________________________________
Napolean Bonaparte as Quoted in Christian Cherfils, ‘Bonaparte et Islam,’ Pedone Ed., Paris, France, 1914, pp. 105, 125.
Original References: ``Correspondance de Napoléon Ier Tome V pièce n° 4287 du 17/07/1799...``


``Moses has revealed the existence of God to his nation. Jesus Christ to the Roman world, Muhammad to the old continent...
``Arabia was idolatrous when, six centuries after Jesus, Muhammad introduced the worship of the God of Abraham, of Ishmael, of Moses, and Jesus. The Ariyans and some other sects had disturbed the tranquility of the east by agitating the question of the nature of the Father, the son, and the Holy Ghost. Muhammad declared that there was none but one God who had no father, no son and that the trinity imported the idea of idolatry...

``I hope the time is not far off when I shall be able to unite all the wise and educated men of all the countries and establish a uniform regime based on the principles of Qur`an which alone are true and which alone can lead men to happiness.``




Sir George Bernard Shaw in `The Genuine Islam,` Vol. 1, No. 8, 1936.


``If any religion had the chance of ruling over England, nay Europe within the next hundred years, it could be Islam.``
``I have always held the religion of Muhammad in high estimation because of its wonderful vitality. It is the only religion which appears to me to possess that assimilating capacity to the changing phase of existence which can make itself appeal to every age. I have studied him - the wonderful man and in my opinion far from being an anti-Christ, he must be called the Savior of Humanity.``

``I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness: I have prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today.``



Bertrand Russel in ‘History of Western Philosophy,’ London, 1948, p. 419.


``Our use of phrase `The Dark ages` to cover the period from 699 to 1,000 marks our undue concentration on Western Europe...
``From India to Spain, the brilliant civilization of Islam flourished. What was lost to christendom at this time was not lost to civilization, but quite the contrary...

``To us it seems that West-European civilization is civilization, but this is a narrow view.``



H.G. Wells


``The Islamic teachings have left great traditions for equitable and gentle dealings and behavior, and inspire people with nobility and tolerance. These are human teachings of the highest order and at the same time practicable. These teachings brought into existence a society in which hard-heartedness and collective oppression and injustice were the least as compared with all other societies preceding it....Islam is replete with gentleness, courtesy, and fraternity.``


Dr. William Draper in `History of Intellectual Development of Europe`


``During the period of the Caliphs the learned men of the Christians and the Jews were not only held in great esteem but were appointed to posts of great responsibility, and were promoted to the high ranking job in the government....He (Caliph Haroon Rasheed) never considered to which country a learned person belonged nor his faith and belief, but only his excellence in the field of learning.``


Thomas Carlyle in ‘Heroes, Hero Worship, and the Heroic in History,’ Lecture 2, Friday, 8th May 1840.


``As there is no danger of our becoming, any of us, Mahometans (i.e. Muslim), I mean to say all the good of him I justly can...
``When Pococke inquired of Grotius, where the proof was of that story of the pigeon, trained to pick peas from Mahomet`s (Muhammad`s) ear, and pass for an angel dictating to him? Grotius answered that there was no proof!...

``A poor, hard-toiling, ill-provided man; careless of what vulgar men toil for. Not a bad man, I should say; Something better in him than hunger of any sort, -- or these wild arab men, fighting and jostling three-and-twenty years at his hand, in close contact with him always, would not revered him so! They were wild men bursting ever and anon into quarrel, into all kinds of fierce sincerity; without right worth and manhood, no man could have commanded them. They called him prophet you say? Why he stood there face to face with them; bare, not enshrined in any mystry; visibly clouting his own cloak, cobbling his own shoes; fighting, counselling, ordering in the midst of them: they must have seen what kind of man he was, let him be called what you like! No emperor with his tiaras was obeyed as this man in a cloak of his own clouting. During three-and-twenty years of rough actual trial. I find something of a veritable Hero necessary for that, of itself...

``These Arabs, the man Mahomet, and that one century, - is it not as if a spark had fallen, one spark, on a world of what proves explosive powder, blazes heaven-high from Delhi to Granada! I said, the Great man was always as lightning out of Heaven; the rest of men waited for him like fuel, and then they too would flame...``



Phillip Hitti in `Short History of the Arabs.`


``During all the first part of the Middle Ages, no other people made as important a contribution to human progress as did the Arabs, if we take this term to mean all those whose mother-tongue was Arabic, and not merely those living in the Arabian peninsula. For centuries, Arabic was the language of learning, culture and intellectual progress for the whole of the civilized world with the exception of the Far East. From the IXth to the XIIth century there were more philosophical, medical, historical, religiuos, astronomical and geographical works written in Arabic than in any other human tongue.``


Carra de Vaux in `The Philosophers of Islam,` Paris, 1921.


``Finally how can one forget that at the same time the Mogul Empire of India (1526-1857 C.E.) was giving the world the Taj Mahal (completed in 1648 C.E.) the architectural beauty of which has never been surpassed, and the ‘Akbar Nameh’ of Abul Fazl: ``That extraordinary work full of life ideas and learning where every aspect of life is examined listed and classified, and where progress continually dazzles the eye, is a document of which Oriental civilization may justly be proud. The men whose genius finds its expression in this book were far in advance of their age in the practical art of government, and they were perhaps in advance of it in their speculations about religious philosophy. Those poets those philosophers knew how to deal with the world or matter. They observe, classify, calculate and experiment. All the ideas that occur to them are tested against facts. They express them with eloquence but they also support them with statistics.``...the principles of tolerance, justice and humanity which prevailed during the long reign of Akbar.``


Marcel Clerget in `La Turquie, Passe et Present,` Paris, 1938.


``Many proofs of high cultural level of the Ottoman Empire during the reign of Suleiman the Magnificent are to be found in the development of science and law; in the flowering of literary works in Arabic, Persian and Turkish; in the contemporary monuments in Istanbul, Bursa, and Edirne; in the boom in luxury industries; in the sumptuous life of the court and high dignitaries, and last but not least in its religious tolerance. All the various influences - notably Turkish, Byzantine and Italian mingle together and help to make this the most brilliant epoch of the Ottomans.``


Michael the Elder (Great) as Quoted in `Michael the Elder, Chronique de Michael Syrien, Patriarche Jacobite d’ Antioche,` J.B. Chabot, Editor, Vol. II, Paris, 1901.


``This is why the God of vengeance, who alone is all-powerful, and changes the empire of mortals as He will, giving it to whomsoever He will, and uplifting the humble beholding the wickedness of the Romans who throughout their dominions, cruelly plundered our churches and our monasteries and condemned us without pity, brought from the region of the south the sons of Ishmael, to deliver us through them from the hands of the Romans. And if in truth we have suffered some loss, because the Catholic churches, that had been taken away from us and given to the Chalcedonians, remained in their possession; for when the cities submitted to the Arabs, they assigned to each denomination the churches which they found it to be in possession of (and at that time the great churches of Emessa and that of Harran had been taken away from us); nevertheless it was no slight advantage for us to be delivered from the cruelty of the Romans, their wickedness, their wrath and cruel zeal against us, and to find ourselves at people. (Michael the Elder, Jacobite Patriarch of Antioch wrote this text in the latter part of the twelfth century, after five centuries of Muslim rule in that region. Click here for a relevant document sent to the monks of St. Catherine Monastery in Mt. Sinai, 628 C.E.)


Sir John Bagot Glubb


“Khalif (Caliph) Al-Ma`mun`s period of rule (813 - 833 C.E.) may be considered the `golden age` of science and learning. He had always been devoted to books and to learned pursuits. His brilliant mind was interested in every form of intellectual activity. Not only poetry but also philosophy, theology, astronomy, medicine and law all occupied his time.”
“By Mamun`s time medical schools were extremely active in Baghdad. The first free public hospital was opened in Baghdad during the Caliphate of Haroon-ar-Rashid. As the system developed, physicians and surgeons were appointed who gave lectures to medical students and issued diplomas to those who were considered qualified to practice. The first hospital in Egypt was opened in 872 AD and thereafter public hospitals sprang up all over the empire from Spain and the Maghrib to Persia.”


On the Holocaust of Baghdad (1258 C.E.) Perpetrated by Hulagu:
“The city was systematically looted, destroyed and burnt. Eight hundred thousand persons are said to have been killed. The Khalif Mustasim was sewn up in a sack and trampled to death under the feet of Mongol horses.

“For five hundred years, Baghdad had been a city of palaces, mosques, libraries and colleges. Its universities and hospitals were the most up-to-date in the world. Nothing now remained but heaps of rubble and a stench of decaying human flesh.”
____________________________________________________________


`` Hujoor ahistaa aahistaa, janaab ahistaa``----- orgasmic ghulaam kaa qaumee taraana.

pmishra2 #50
I hope the discussion goes back to medieval or pre-medieval Islam in W.Asia, because its a very interesting subject.

Meanwhile without intending to disrupt the discussion, here is a recapof salient facts in book written in 1942 `The Problem of India 1833-1935` by Reginald Coupland.(paragraphs mine)

``[in 1906] The Moslem leaders [of the newly formed Muslim League]were faced by the fact that not only the principle of representation, but also in practice the principle of election had been established in the constitution of the Provincial legislatures; and they realised that the forthcoming advance was likely to confirm and extend the elective principle. To meet the situation they had two clear points of policy. First, in all elections, whether for the Legislative Councils or for local bodies, the Moslems must be separately represented and their representatives separately elected by purely Muslim electors. Second, the extent of the Moslem community`s representation must be `commensurate not merely with their numerical strength, but also with their political importance and the value of their contribution which they make to the defence of the Empire`. These were the main points of the Moslem case which was submitted to Lord Minto, shortly before the first meeting by the League, by a Moslem deputation, headed by its President, the Aga Khan.

The Viceroy`s response was wholly sympathetic. He didnot commit himself to any particular method of election but `I am as firmly convinced,` he said, `as I believe you to be that any electoral representation in India would be doomed to mischievous failure which aimed at granting a personal franchisement regardless of the beliefs and traditions of the communities composing the population of this continent.`. The Secretary of State concurred; he tentatively suggested a scheme for a joint electoral college, but he didnot press it; in due course the Moslems found their two demands conceded in the Act of 1909 and the regulations made under it. The Moslems were given what was later to be known as `weightage`, i.e., more seats that they were entitled to by numbers only, and, while voting also in `general` constituencies side by side with Hindus, they were to vote for their own members in separate and wholly Moslem constituencies. That their anxieties were not wholly allayed, however,were shown by their objection to the appointment to the Viceroy`s Executive Council of a single Indian, who was naturally a Hindu. But on this point their protests were overruled. This issue didnot arise on the appointment of Indians to the Secretary of State`s council, since there were two of them and one was a Moslem..``

This writer adds a foot note later : In her `India, Minto and Morley`, Lady Minto quotes a letter she received from an official describing the Viceroy`s response to the Moslem deputation(above), as `nothing less than the pulling back of sixty two millions of people from joining the ranks of the seditious opposition`. It may well be true[Author says] that many Moslems might have joined the Hindu extremists in attacking the government; but there is no evidence to suggest that the deputation was in any sense engineered. It was actually organised by the well-known Moslem leader, Nawab Mahsin-ul-Mulk, shortly before he died. Nr was the Moslem opposition to an unqualified representative system on the British model a novelty in 1908. As early as 1883, Syed Ahmad, speaking on Lord Ripon`s introduction of elections to local bodies, declared that `election pure and simple` was quite unsuited to diversified India, where `the rigour of religious institutions has kept even neighbours apart`.

Just FYI.

#55 Shah


Hey, dont argue with me, please write to:

M B Naqvi

The writer is a well-known

journalist and freelance columnist

mbnaqvi@cyber.net.pk

#54 Shah

There is an ongoing debate in India about the interpretation of indian history of the mediaeval islamic period. Right-wing folks have (correctly) argued that left-wing historians have intentionally downplayed destruction of hindu artifacts and sites of worship by islamic invaders. Left-wing historians have pointed out that islam has been in India a long time and that it is important to distinguish between the early invasions (900-1200) vs. later mediaeval kings such as Moghuls, Tipu Sultan, etc. While sometimes the discussion has been hijacked for political ends, overall the debate is a healthy one.

BTW, the Dara Shikoh Park (improvement of Red Fort area) under consideration is proposed by Jagmohan, who is about as hard-line a Sanghi as you will find. So I would be careful before claiming that indian secularism is dead today.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Arabic is a beautiful language but Urdu appears to be closer to Persian.

The days when more of the world will speak Arabic seem rather distant

now but hey, when you have Punjabi......

Ras

re: #33

6. Last thing is that Islam never became an agrarian culture. That drawback hindered its success in the great age of progress and prosperity when surplus was used to buy full time services of workers in urabanization of societies..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the hallmark of Semitic religions. I wonder what kind of `spring` festivals the christians celebrate? To blame islam for lack of progress in agrarian culture seems rather far-fetched. To me, the absence of an spring festivals from Islamic traiditon doesn`t bar people of agrarian socieites from celebrating one! I`m sure you know that Iranians celebrate both Ramadhan and No-rooz with almost equal zeal. I`m not from punjab but I`m sure punjabis also have their versions of spring celebrations. So here goes your argument regarding lack of `color` from islamic festivals...apparently the lack of commercialization in them bothers you or something..

If you wanted to imply that islamic economic system wasn`t shaped fully to accomodate an agrarian model, you would have to come up with better arguments. I think you gotta quote us examples of how iraq, iran and egypt fared in terms of agrarian economies after coming under the fold of islam.

Faisaluno:

What is the point you are trying to make? I know you are certainly not a Muslim extremist. What Amartya Sen is true and broadly accepted. What does that have to do with ISI Agent and all that stuff? Just wondering...

#39 Ralph

Regrettably, there are a number of indian muslims who believe in various forms of islamo-supremacy. In some cases, as with extremists like Imam Bukhari this also reaches the peak of islamo-fascism.

Generally, this is manifested in a peculiar combination of repeated re-iteration of islamic greatness with great bitterness at the failings of indian democracy. A few examples will be provided by these individuals about missed job opportunities due to discrimination or some political machinations that have led to bad feelings. Missing from it is any shared vision of an indian future or any broader agenda which would provide unity or cohesion.

One is left with the feeling that indian democracy has failed only the muslims, or that India is surrounded only by advanced secular democracies. There seems to no awareness of the falsity of both these beliefs or realization that the creation of indian democracy (with all its many faults) is a towering achievement, and that its failings effect ALL indians.

Here is the quotation from M. B. Naqvi that I had earlier referenced. He is a well known pakistani columnist. This is the same writing that ali87 had dismissed as ``typical RSS propaganda``.

-------------------------------------------------------
This policy was the logical culmination of policies based on inherited assumptions and attitudes -- the characteristics of Muslim separatism -- that were about identity and self-image. Historically the majority of Muslims, originally low-caste Hindus, affected a superiority complex, especially in Northern India. They feared being falling down into the vast assimilative sea of Hindudom surrounding them wherein they will be at the bottom of social heap. May be they would be punished for former uppishness and for real or imagined wrongs. That explained their demonstrative adherence to Islam, which is what distinguished them from Hindus. Their religious exhibitionism and a superiority complex led to emphases on differences with Hindus and regarding themselves as rulers` kith and kin deserving privileges and safeguards -- the leitmotif of pre-independence Indian Muslim politics.

Others` refusal to accept Muslims demands, calculated to preserve imagined privileges, angered them and an adversarial attitude vis-a-vis Hindus developed. Muslims thus demanded weightage -- actually equality of treatment with Hindus -- reservations and separate electorate. These came from, and strengthened, two traits: first, not to accept democracy`s implications, especially the equality with Hindus. The second was to depend on a ruling or hegemonic power to get them their due. Pakistan politics has actually reflected these traits: democracy soon collapsed and a new ruling elite, civil and military bureaucracy, continues to usurp power. The second trait of depending on the US to keeping India (Hindus) in check gave an illusion of equality. This dependency syndrome that produced the ever readiness to hitch Pakistan`s wagon to the American star survives.

``Buddhist culture was as most acknowlege was wiped out not by muslims but by bhramins.

There was no religon called Hinduism when Islam came. Only a lose set of rituals through which Bhramins used to control the masses through the kings. Since there was no religion only rituals which were adapted or changed and most of the times invented new rituals to take care of being in a upper hand there is no coherrence in acient texts. Infact the coming of Muslims gave a identity to the diverse and at times unreleated practices.

Nobody called themselves hindu or called themselves as following a Dharma. Just plain Rituals , Sacrifices, which kept the preistly class in power.
``


People, leave this poor guy alone. He neither has any knowledge of Indian history nor any knowledge of Hinduism. Any attempt to educate him would be futile; Bhains ke aage been bajanaa...

``According to Gallup polls, about 44 percent of Americans believe in a strict biblical creationist view. About 40 percent believe in ``theistic evolution,`` the idea that God guided the millions of years of evolution that culminated with humans. Only one in 10 of those surveyed expressed a strict, secular evolutionist view.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/campaigns/wh2000/stories/creation082799.htm

tahmed32 sahib:

salam. would not be so quick to dismiss influence of religion on post-communist western societies. for example, do you think any of these guys would have been elected had they proclaimed that they did not believe in the concept of a judeao-christian god?

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/27/international/europe/27BRIT.html

``The most frequent explanation Mr. Blair gives for his actions is the simple statement that it is the ``right thing`` to do. Friends point to his deeply held religious belief as the source of this sense of certainty and cite it as a reason that he gets on well with Mr. Bush, who also credits faith with inspiring his policies``

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/campaigns/wh2000/stories/creation082799.htm

Texas Gov. George W. Bush, the Republican front-runner, has more directly endorsed the teaching of creationism, using language familiar to the rejuvenated religious movement. ``I believe children ought to be exposed to different theories about how the world started,`` Bush said at a campaign appearance last week in New Orleans.

``He [Bush] believes both creationism and evolution ought to be taught,`` his spokeswoman Mindy Tucker elaborated to Reuters. ``He believes it is a question for states and local school boards to decide but believes both ought to be taught.``

_ _ _When first asked about the Kansas vote, a Gore spokesman seemed to allow for the possibility of teaching creationist science, an option the Supreme Court has ruled out.

``The vice president favors the teaching of evolution in public schools,`` Alejandro Cabrera said yesterday in response to a question from a Reuters reporter. ``Obviously, that decision should and will be made at the local level, and localities should be free to teach creationism as well.``

_ _ _Prominent scientists felt betrayed by their ally, and detected waffling in Gore`s finely tuned answers. ``What he`s trying to do is carry water on both shoulders,`` said Daniel Koshland, former editor of the journal Science and a professor at the University of California at Berkeley. ``It reflects badly on him that he would say something incorrect in order to appease all parts of the population.``

_ _ _Steve Forbes, who is aggressively courting the religious right, called textbook illustrations of evolution ``a massive fraud`` but stopped short of fully endorsing creationism. ``A lot of what we thought was true, it turns out, science is finding is not true,`` he said, repeating a common stance of creationists.

#25 ali 87


Taxila, one of the most ancient of pakistsani cities was destroyed by the White Huns in 499 A.D and not by Hindus as you claim.

#42 faisaluno

Do you actually read the articles you post? Dr. Sen`s article is far from an apologia for muslim rule in SA. He merely remarks that whereas Aurangzeb was a islamist tyrant, Akbar was a broad minded ruler free of religous bigotry. and that both were muslim kings.

Akbar legacy is widely celebrated throughout India and by all indians. BTW, recently the Delhi Municipal Corporation announced a revitalization of the red fort area. The spruced up area will be renamed Dara Shikoh Park, another broad-minded and liberal indian.