Once Upon A Time: When The World Spoke Arabic

#180 by tahmed32 on January 30, 2003 4:30pm PT

The qutba is acutally not replaced by dialoge. Instead dialoge takes place later on in the evening after maghrib. I too initially thougth that it should take place during the qutba. But later I understood that it may not be possible because of the of the timing and the need for people to first get the message first in the accepted form. Also many people may not be intrested in the dialoge having no need for clarifications also the nature of assembly does not make it ideal to ask difficult questions so the dialoge takes place in the evening when people have more time and there is a smaller group of intrested people.
some thing like a paper presentation I should say. When you presnet a paper in a seminar there is limited interaction. Ie the paper is presented that is the main task. The questioning is limited or absent. that part takes place in acedemic circles after the paper is published. Usually as a discussion on the paper or a aritcle crituqiing the paper or by presenting an alternative paper.

In Indian and pakistan due to high density of population and the relative neglect by people and even due to the lack of understandign of the need and process of dialoge may be it doesnot take place. However I did see this in a couple of masjids in india although not on a regular basis.

At times it is better if people explaning concepts are from ordianary walks of life ie working people, busines peopple Teachers, since they can ariticulate the Ideas in modern context as well as have a sufficiient understadign of modern life because they are not isolated from it like the professional mullahs(of course nothing prevents anyone from being a irrational tradtionalist)

which is why I say that if this affects us there is nothing stopping us from taking over the mantle of the the professional mullahs at least from time to time. The criteria is not very heavy I dont think that it even involves the level of effort that a professional post graduate diploma requires. Because our socities are established muslim socities where instituions have come up with the need for certification etc. It is good to have those instituions but we do not like them because they are having a negative effect so the frist step is to get involved and not leave it to some one else after all it is our religon not the mullahs.

ali87:

it is bad enough focussing on islam all the time. lets not bring hinduism into this.

#184 by pmishra2 on January 30, 2003 4:53pm PT

What is your point mishra?

1)you did not post those as the views of a pakistani colummist. Even when you did I pointed out that it did not matter there could be people in pakistan whose views may be of liking of RSS or something to the effect. Search it up if you are intrested.

2)``Mess of superstition`` is your term may be that is what you want me to call it. I had said that it is about Rituals.
Even Islam has rituals like the ritual abulutions. the rituals of salat. I said that there rituals in hinduism benifited the Bhramins. These had little logical value and also have not stood the test of time which have been abandoned like sati. Animal sacrifices etc.


(3) This is what I had said in my first post on singapore. So what have you seen proved?any thing dramatically diffrent from this?

``#99 by ali87 on January 29, 2003 12:23pm PT

Last I heard that Both Krishna cheif minister of Karnataka and Chandrababu Naidu cheif minister of Andhra Pradesh and many other politicians form various states that they wanted to emulate the progress of Singapore.

Singapore muslim citizens do not have to accept common civil code. Infact Singapore courts provide the leagal frame work for personal law as per the Sharia``


(4)Islam is perfect that is my belif. I have admitted in a few places that I do make mistakes if I realise I admit them (at least that is what I try, you may judge if Im right)



So Mishra looks like you have fallen in the trap that you set for me.

ali87 # 182

Like a typical Nazi, you are supremely ignorant. My religion burnt heretics like yours kills apostates but in 2003 nobody defends burning witches and heretics. You continue to kill and justifiy treating non Muslims as second class citizens on the basis of your shitty religion. That, amused Neanderthal, is not religion, it is a primitive cult to piss at.

Whatever Hindus believe, they gave traitors like you rights. Following Muhammad, they should have executed you. I can see it happening. Since you understand no other language, you will start getting the Islamic treatment. Don`t blame Narendra Modi. He is, after all, just like your Muhammad.

Dhimmis are coming after you, Neanderthals. There are some last bleats still left in you. Amuse yourself while you can.

ON JAZIA and ZAKAAT!

``Gulaa tO ghoont diyaa, ahl-e madressa ney tiraa
KahaaN sey aayay sadaa `` La ila ha Illilah``------ALLAMA Iqbal.

tr:Your voice has been choked by the madressa-types
How now can you utter `La ilaaha..........


Oh! what an opportunity to learn----even for us `illiterate` unglee-sized muslims. Non-Muslims most welcome!
From Nahjul-Balagha.

Taxation and judiciary during Ali`s Caliphate.
_________________________________________________________
Division of Public Service Departments:

He divided the state service into following sections:



1. Public Finance

2. Army

3. Central Secretariat,

4. Judiciary,

5. Provincial offices

Finance Department:The department of the Public Finance was divided into two sections:
a) Collection section and

b) Distribution section.
Collection Section was sub divided into three heads and only three kinds of taxes were allowed to be collected by Hazrath Ali:

i. Land Revenue: It was usually collected in coins of silver and gold or in bullion. Officers to collect this revenue were some times appointed by the center, but Hazrath had also authorised the governors to appoint such officers themselves.

ii. Zakath (poor rate) and Sadaquath (poor fund); it was usually collected in kind or in live-stock. Officers to collect this revenuc were always appointed directly by Hazrath and he took great care to appoint honest and pious persons on these posts and to keep a sharp look out on their activities and behaviour.



iii. Jaziyah: a tax from non-Muslims in lieu of Zakath etc. and in return for the security and amenities provided to them. Collection of no other kind of tax, from non Muslims, was allowed by him.



Land survey was carried on by him wherever necessary. Every tax-payer had the right to appeal and an appellate jurisdiction was brought into force. Officers for this court of appeal were directly appointed by Hazrath.

He was the first man to introduce the Budgetary system for collection of Revenues and for its Expenditure. Every province had to present its budget direct to him for approval. The incomes were divided into two heads; provincial and central. Zakath and Sadaquath were items of the Central Revenue, Land Revenue and Jaziya were Provincial Incomes.


The schedule of rate for Land Revenue was fixed by him as under:

1. 1st class (most fertile) land: 11/2 Dirham per Jareeb

2. 2nd class fertile land 1 Dirham per Jareeb

3. 3rd Grade land 1/2 Dirham per Jareeb

4. Vine yards, and Orchards
and date palm groves 10 Dirh. per Jareeb


(Note 1 Jareeb=2268 3/4 sq.yd.)


Sadaquath and Zakath were the taxes which only Muslims had to pay. It was a tax levied on personal income, landed property, hoarded bullion and currency and on live-stock, its rate was that which was fixed by tenets of the Muslim Law.

Jaziya was a personal tax, collected per head of a person irrespective of his income or property. But such persons were divided into classes. It was an annual tax. The division of classes was as under:



1st class: Very rich persons and land-lords 48 Dirhams per head

2nd class: Middle class people 42 Dirhams per head

3rd class: Businessmen 42 Dirhams per head

4th class: General public 12 Dirhams per head

There were positive orders that no Jaziya was to be collected from beggars, and persons falling in following categories.



1. Those who were above 50 years of age

2. Those who were below 20 years of age

3. All women-folks

4. All paralysed persons

5. All disabled persons

6. All blind persons

7. All mad persons



Income from the source of Zakath and Sadaquath was reserved for the folowing heads:



A. Administration of the Departments of Collection and Distribution.

B. Grants, Donations and aids to poor, have-nots, orphans, aged widows and disabled persons.

C. Honorarium to volunteers who fought for the state

D. Pensions to widows and orphans of soldiers and officers of the army.

E. To acquire and to set free slaves from the bondage of slavery.

F. Reparation of government loans

G. To help Hajis whenever and wherever they were found stranded.



Items C to F were for the first time introduced by Hazrath Ali and so far as F was concerned previously noking ever thought his kingdom to be morally obliged to pay back a loan taken from somebody.



Hazrath Ali was the first man who declared that a ruler’s share of income from the state was equal to that of any commoner.



Income from Jaziya was car-marked for the following items of expenditure:



i. Maintenance of army.

ii. Construction and maintenance of Forts

iii. Construction and maintenance of Roads and Bridges

iv. Well sinking

v. Construction of Sarais (Rest houses)



Land Revenue was the provincial income to be spent on maintenance of courts, offices, and other necessary items as per orders of the Center. Before I bring to an end the narration of his system of revenue collection I must mention a remark passed by him in this respect to one of his governors. He said “So far as collection of land revenue is concerned you must always keep in view the welfare of the tax-payer, which is of primary importance than the taxes themselves, and as actual taxable capacity of people rests on fertility of land therefore more attention should be paid to fertility of land and prosperity of the subjects than to the collection of revenues.


Distribution of Public wealth was a subject on which Hazrath Ali spent much time and thought and which in return caused him to lose many adherents and followers.


The first reform that Hazrath Ali (A.S) introduced was to reorganize the Treasury and the Accounts department. Dishonest officers were removed from the service. A system of accounting was introduced. Oosman-ibne-Haneef was appointed as the Chief Treasury Officer. The principle of equal distribution of public money was introduced. The system of weakly distribution was for the first time adopted. Every Thursday was the distribution day or pay day so that Muslims could spend their National Holiday of Friday happily. Every Thursday accounts were closed and every Saturday started with fresh books of accounts.



Impartiality and equity were the key-notes of his policy of distribution of wealth. At the Center (Koofa) he often supervised the distribution himself and after the work was over and accounts cleared he would say prayers in the Treasury and thank his Lord that he had performed his duty faithfully.



Imam Shoobee says that as a young boy once he passed the Treasury at the time when Hazrath Ali was supervising the distribution, he saw negro-slaves standing in line with the Arab Shaikhs and getting equal shares, and within a short time the heaps of silver and gold coins disappeard, the Treasury was cleared, Hazrath Ali said the prayers and left the office empty handed. That day he had given his share to an old woman who complained that her share was ot sufficing her (Kitab-e-Gharath).



Once one of his favourite and trusty companion, Oosman-ibne-Haneef, told him that by introduction of the principle of Equal Distribution of wealth and bringing important persons down to the level of commoners, by raising the status of Negroes, and Persians to that of Arabs, by allotting shares to slaves equal to their masters, by depriving the rich persons of their jagirs and by stopping special grants apportioned to them according to their status, he had done more harm to himself and his cause than good. Continuing he said “Look my Lord, these are the reasons why influential and rich Arabs are deserting you and are gathering around Moavia. Of what use these poor persons, disabled people, aged widows and Negro slaves are to you. How can they help and serve you?” He replied “I cannot allow rich and influential persons to exploit the society of this Muslim state and to run an inequitable and unjust system of distribution of wealth and opportunities. I cannot for a moment tolerate this. This is public wealth, it comes from the masses it must go back to them. The rich and powerful persons have not created any wealth, they have merely sucked it from the masses and after paying the taxes, etc. what is left to them is many times more than what they pay to the state and they are welcome to retain it. Had all this been private property I would have gladly distributed it in the same manner. So far as their desertion is concerned I am glad they have deserted me. So far as the usefulness or services of these disabled persons and have-nots is concerned, remember that I am not helping them to secure their services, I fully well know they are unable to serve me. I help them because they cannot help themselves and they are as much human-beings as you and I. May God help me to do my duty as He wishes me to do”. (Kitab-e-Gharath).



Army: Hazrath Ali was a born soldier and had started his Military career at the age of fourteen, when he acted as a bodyguard to the Holy prophet (A.S.). Thence onward he was the only Military talent on whom the Holy prophet (A.S.) would rely and all arrangments for organization of defences and maintenance of an army of volunteers or soldiers were totally entrusted to him by the Holy prophet (A.S.). It was his ability and valour which brought such success to Islam in its early stage against such enormous odds. Even Hazrath Omer was taking his advice on Military problems (Sirajul Mobeen, Almurtaza and Kitab-e-Gharath).



Time had not dimmed his valour or his ability to organize such an important section of the state. At the age of sixty in the battle-fields of Jamal, Siffeen and Nahrwan, he was as brave soldier, as good leader and as keen Marshal as he was in the prime of his life, in the battlefields of Bader, Ohad, Khundaq, Khaiber and Hunain.



During his short period of rulership of about four years he organized this department very carefully.



The first liability on the state exchequer was the army department. Every governor of the province besides being chief finance officer of the province was the commander of the army placed under him. When officers could not be found to look after the military as well as civil administration then the functions were divided.



Hazrath Ali did not tolerate mere mercenaries but did not let the services of volunteers go unpaid. He hated murder and blood-shed and desired his soldiers to be soldiers in the service of God and religion. His strict orders to the army were, “always keep fear of God in your mind, remember that you cannot afford to do without His Grace. Remember that Islam is a mission of peace and love. Keep the Holy prophet (A.S.) before you as a model of bravery, valour and piety. Do not kill anybody unless in self defence. Take care of your mounts and your arms, they are your best guards. Work hard while you are at it and then devote some time to rest and relaxation. Rest and relaxation are as much necessary for you as hard work. Do not let one overstep the time limit of the other. Do not pursue those who run away from an encounter and do not kill fleeing persons. Do not kill those who beg for life and mercy. Do not kill civilians. Do not outrage modesty of women. Do not harm old people and children. Do not accept any gifts from the civil population of any place. Do not billet your soldiers or officers in the houses of civilians. Do not forget to say your daily prayers. Fear God. Remember that death will inevitably come to every one of you some time or other, even if you are thousands of miles away from a battle-field; therefore be always ready to face death. “He did not appreciate heavily armed and clad soldiers. He liked lighter swords, lighter bows and arrows, lighter coat of arms and lighter chain of armours. He perferred to have an agile and a mobile army. I wish I had space at my disposal to translate parts from the books Algharath, Siraj-ul-Mobeen, Al-Murtaza and Kitab-e-Siffeen (as quoted by Ibne Abil Hadeed). They have discussed and narrated at some length his system of reorganizing the army, his principles of strategy and his tactics of war: How he divided the army into six units, beginning from van guard (Muquadamath-ul-Jaish) and ending it at the rear guards (Radah and Saqquah); how he arranged to cover every possibility of a retreat with the help of these units; how he sub-divided the cavalry into horse and camel units; and infantry into archers, swords’ men and ‘Mata’een’ (soldiers armed with short lances which they threw with precision, skill and force); how he made the van guard responsible for scouting, pioneering and performing duties of sappers and Miners; how he used to arrange the army in a battle-field; how he never suffered a defeat in his life; how bold he was; how he used to fight without protecting his body with armour or shield; how he never delivered more than one blow (mostly his one blow was sufficient to kill his opponent, if not he would give the opponent chance to get up and run away) and how nobody ever dared stand before him for his second blow. To him war was a pious duty to be performed only for the purpose of defence. He often declared “A Muslim’s life is a battlefield, where he is seldom required to defend his self or his cause and country at the point of sword, which is Jehad-e-Asghar (Holy war on a minor scale), however formidable be the forces he is to face, while in every day of his life he is to fight against evil desires, vicious cravings and inordinate wishes, which is Jehad-e-Akber (A holy war on a major scale), take care and do not suffer a defeat in this battle; remember it is life long struggle; a success here will honoured with martyrdom, even if one dies in his bed surrounded by his relatives”.



Judicature: The principle of keeping judicature independent of, and over and above the executive, administrative and military sections of the state was the main factor of the reforms introduced by him. He was very particular about this. So much so that historians narrate that he appeard before his Chief Justice (Quaz Sharaih) as a complainant and the Chief Justice wanted to give him a place of honour in the court and to treat him like a king or caliph. He reproached the judge for such a behaviour, saying that he was there as a plaintiff and not as a king or a caliph, and then he cheerfully accepted the decision of the court against him. The effect of upholding the prestige of the court of justice, and his adherance to the principles of equality and equity were so impressive that the person, against whom he had field the case and had lost it, ran after him kissed the hem of his garment and said “My Lord, teach me Islam, I am a Christian and I want to be converted”. “Why”, enquired Hazrath Ali… “Did any body forced you to do that?” “No My lord” he said, “But your behaviour of treating even a non-Muslim subject as your equal, the prestige you have granted to justice and fair play and your abstination from use of power and authority made me feel that Islam is a great religion. You are a ruler and a caliph, you could have easily ordered me to be killed and my property looted, and nobody dared ask reasons of your actions, but you took the case against me to the court and cheerfully accepted the decision against you; I have never heard of such a ruler before you. What is more the thing that you claimed as yours is actually yours and not mine, but I know the persons who could provide proof of this are out of Koofa, therefore, I boldly said that it was mine and not yours. That was a lie, and now I am ashamed to feel that I lied against such an honourable person. You have heard me. Will you not allow me to enter the fold of Islam”? Hazrath enquired, “Are you of your free-will entering our fold”? “Yes”, he replied “Under your regime I have nothing to lose by remaining in my religion and no worldly benefit to gain by embracing Islam and by confessing my guilt and sin”.



The code which he laid down for selection and enrolment of judges shows he took care of even minute requirements of the post and position, it says:



1. Only such persons should be selected who are well versed in Muslim Law and know enough of the Holy Book and traditions of the Holy prophet (A.S.) to decide according to the principles laid down therein, besides they must have knowledge of personal Law of other religions followed in their provinces





2. They must be men of some standing and status.



3. They must not lose temper or patience and treat litigants harshly and insultingly. The litigants must feel that their interests are well guarded and well looked after, and the doors of justice are always open for them.



4. If they feel that they have made a mistake they should not obstinately stick to it, but try to undo the injustice done by them.



5. They should be able to probe deeply into cases before them and to reach the truth.



6. They must be able to reach decisions quickly and must not unnecessarily prolong a case.



7. They must not accept recommendations and must not be influenced.



8. Their salaries should be so fixed that they are not tempted by bribes and gifts.



9. In audiences and levees of the governors they should be given scats of honour.



10. Greedy and avarious persons, and those who are open to flattery and cajolery should also be avoided.



11. The door of appeal to the public should not be closed. The caliph should always hear appeals against the decisions of the courts and should decide as per orders of God and the Holy prophet (A.S.).

@175 ali87

Still spreading your disinformation here? Please take a look at my posting #161. There a 100 more chronicles of the brutality of islamic invasions in North West India. This region (Afghanistan and Pakistan) has a handful of hindus or buddhists left today.

It`s kind of cute that you are running around accusing others of innaccuracy. Here is your track record so far:

(1) condemmed the views of a well known Pakistani columnist as
``typical RSS talk``

(2) Claimed Hinduism as a religion to be a mess of superstition

(3) Claimed muslims are completely free to follow their religion in Singapore, including their own personal law. This was proven to be a lie thru several postings !

(4) Proclaimed that ``Islam is perfect`` (and maybe you are too?)

So keep up the good work. This is a public forum so your slipperiness is in full display.

#182 by Ralph on January 30, 2003 4:30pm PT

Back from your breaky Ralphy. Feeling refreshed!!

Coming from you this is rich.. you who burned women on live and eat dead humuan meat (Barkha dutts programme) to gain tantric powers for thousnads of years. Sacrificed little children to (still happens) to ward of evil while bulding big buldings etc

You who could not consider women capable enough to give them rights to property. to education. Who systemicaly undermined your own people in the inhumuan caste system for thousands of years where even the shadow of a Dalit would cause him (and still causes in many palces in India) to be beaten mercilessly or killed. Where they cannont (and still cannot in many places) draw water from the village well but have to trudge miles to get their water. YOu who come from a religion where even now people have to get down from their bycicyles while passing Bhramin houses you are going to tell me educate the the pros and cons of Dhimmis

Great!!!

But go on Im not going to stop you. You amuse me...

#177 by no_more_a_slave on January 30, 2003 2:46pm PT
no more an abd you are complainign that the Zorastrians in Pakistan do not hate but love.

Prehaps the abds are loveable

:)

ali87 #173

You, my friend, are the biggest hypocrite and crypto fascist that I have met. If you represent Islam, I will happily give up any respect for Islam and openly call for its destruction and for locking up of Muslims in non Muslim countries.

You have no respect for the equal rights of non Muslims. You support a system that tells Muslims to turn non Muslims into dhimmis as soon as they gain power. If I am not wrong, dhimmis are second class citizens. Still you believe that non Muslims should keep quiet because this fascism is your religion.

I have not heard any Muslim leader of any standing rise and distance himself from this barbarism. This then is the real Islam. In that case Islam is not a religion but a dangerous cult being spread through subversion, violence, and lies. There is no peace, no brotherhood in your cult. Far from being perfect as you claim, it is a primitive mass of barbaric rituals fit for arabs and Neanderthals. It should be opposed because calling a spade a flower when someone is ready to hit you with it is to be blind.

When others who are taught to respect other religions say any thing good about Islam, Muslims paste those around as proof of Islamic goodness! You have no compunctions that Muslims rarely say anything good about other religions. How can you? You are a barbarian, and your religion is a barbaric cult. I will never say anthing good about your cult so long you cultists claim your religion promoting dhimmihood is a`perfect` religion needing no change. Islam, my friend, is neither a religion nor a deen. It is a perfectly evil primitive cult that kills all that does not submit to it. You have made it clear that civilization and Islam can not surive together. When I first read that, I dismissed it, but I now see it is true. There is no point in discussing anything about equality or rights with you.

ali87 #179 I am really glad to hear that there are mosques in the US where the khutba is a dialogue, not a monologue. Unfortunately, in Pakistan (as in India, as you indicate) this is not the case. Also, this is the first time I have heard of this in the US. I am all for a dialogue (and that is why I find chowk so interesting) and agree with you in that it is a good way to get one`s own thinking clarified. If what you say is true, then perhaps we are getting somewhere. But let us hope that we replace the monologue of the khutba with open discussions among equals (as all individuals are supposed to be), and of course on that day the monopoly of the mullah would be broken.
On your other point, i.e. the need to convey ideas, I am in agreement. And I have done so on chowk by emphasizing the substantive message of the Quran - i.e. peace towards all, honesty, kindness, seeking knowledge and learning - which is not voiced frequently enough in mosques (where khutbas often end up being stories of hazrat ibrahim and other prophets that everyone has heard a zillion times, or emphasis on rituals rather than on values). But I agree, there is a great need to emphasize this positive message particularly among muslims who too often think of their religion as being a set of rituals with no emphasis on positive values.
Thanks for your response, and I enjoyed reading it and learnt something from it (about the khutba being replaced by a dialogue in some mosques in the US).

#149 by tahmed32 on January 30, 2003 6:38am PT

As regrads to the other aspect of qutba ie lack of question answere kind of dialoge I felt that was an imporatnt part that is missing. A few years ago I asked one of the elders onthis point saying that I feel that im only being lectured with no facitilty to ask questions or explanaitons. I was asked to come on friday eveings an some thing I had missed for long at least in my masjid . Here a few people interacted with the Imam asking questions getting qualifications to issues and direcitives. It does not happen much in India usuall ocassionaly and in rare circumstances. Here In US this is a regular feature on friday evenings in my majsid. people who need get their questions answerd go those meetings or even the Imam comes up with answers after consultiing other people or books to questions asked to give a correct answer if he doenst have it at the instant.

#149 by tahmed32 on January 30, 2003 6:38am PT

Even in advanced technological or even at school level this is one way of dissemination of information. For instance people give lectures to colleauges on say the quaity system. Now this is neither complicated nor difficult to read up. Only it is easier if someone else says it. Aslo it brings in to foucs diffrent aspects of the issue as many more people put their brain to it than just you. By raising questions even simple ones the different aspects of the isssue and their establised answers as well as the inconsistencies are know to all and High lighted.

I have a friend who is a BTech and MTEch from IIT in electical and power electornics and holds nearly 15 patents in VLSI design when he wanted to do some phycial circuit design and trouble shooting as a hobby he went to a small neighbourhood TV and radio repair instittue the kind who teach in a garage basic skills to almost unemployed youth.

When I pointed out that he could easily pick up what he needs from a book or his old notes or from the internet (as he must have done that in his graduate course and post graduate course) rathere than go to a person who has only half baked knowlege he replied that the process of learning needs a structure of classroom and is easier and more pleasureable. He even toldme that it does not matter if the person is not too knowledgable compared to him. What is important that he teaches what is been structured by a teaching system also ``any one can teach me some thing new``

Though I know him for nearly 15 years at this point I found that the humility (which I earlier found of just social use) had a practical value in life and learning.

There are other aspects to the qutba. One is the collective nature of it. It brings people together that is a important function the feelign of kinship is important.

Same process happens in those innane meetings business hold for their employes or dealers in las vegas or elsewhere. similarly that is what americans do in their Presidnets State of Nation speeches. Seen logicaliy they have no practical purpose. Their prupose is indirect and works on the pyscological needs of people.


It also keeps the message of Islam constant ie having people adhere to commonly accepted views on a particular topic gives coherrence(you may say that it stifiles other views but that is a pitfall not the primary function so measures can be taken to avoid unhealthy shuttering away of Issues)

Im not sure if universaly held values are self propogating. That is why special self help groups work on the principle of giving the obvious solutions but it those groups people get to understand because we are part of the grop and bond together. Similar thing happens in industry you find signs about saftey often very simple being constantly hammered into people. Not that people dont know that the how saftey is important. In resturant business there is always a notice in the bathroom which says ``Wash hands frequently`` or ``Wash hands before handling food`` Im sure that every one knows this but havign it in every place where people are likely to need that it helps in keeping the hygine.

Dont you think that people in our coutnries dont know the value of hygine in resturant business. So why do we find that this simple value is not follwed in our lands and followed more here in western countries.

Similarly there is more to commonly held universaly held values than we may think. For instance presently we all accept the value of personal Hygine. but was this always so? In eurupe for ages people would not take bath for months. Kings would pride themselves from taking baths only once a year or even once a life time. The cannibals did not hold the value of not eating your own dear. Abulitons prescribed performed this funciton where ever Islam went. (Im not saying that muslims are the cleanest people) Hindus thus had thier rituals of cleanig feet before entering the home taking bath before pujas etc.
Without these rituals there would have been not many universally accepted values intodays time.

It is in this context that Islam and its practices should be seen. They were meant for all people for all times to come. They have preformed a reasonable enough function so far I feel.

Also there are all kinds of people that Islam reaches out to poor, rich, in cold countries in dessert if forests in cities in villages, educated Uneducated and head hunters, to skull keeper to sophisticated thinkers. It is a immense achivement that it is able to answer the needs of all these people and get them together thorough rituals which build Identity at the same time are of practical use and do not hamper logical thought much. I cant think of any other system that has stood the test of time.

True there are problems from time to time. there is a frame work to fix them too. Neither is Islam too rigid to adapt rather than be abandoned.

I know you feel otherwise when I was young I too felt that way after much expousre and thougth I feel that I have nothing to offer to better it. I dont see any other system which will stand the test of time.

pmishra2, ahmadzai
Despite all that, there are Zorastrians in Pakistan who do not hate Muslims. Parsi girls end up marrying Muslims men! That is how Islam is spread. Conquest and elimination by force first, discrimination afterwards, and one way marriages finally!

#158 by no_more_a_slave on January 30, 2003 10:11am PT
#159 by ali_1 on January 30, 2003 10:28am PT
#151 by Saminasha on January 30, 2003 6:38am PT


It is very unfortunate that what ali_1 points out is true. In almost every discussion people start to bash Islam or muslims. However they are not open to any critisizim on their religion.
Dont talk about what you dont know is what you are told. Fine by the same argument the other side also shut up.

Not that I want that to happnen. Where are the aritcles on criticizim of hinduism? Where are the discussion of the many contradictions of hinduism?

Even on academic articles there is usually nothing but plain jeering by the hindus here as well as the what we call moderate muslims or non practicing muslims.
If you want to point out inconsistencies there are many ways to do that without jeering.

But this is often lost on most such people.

#158 by no_more_a_slave on January 30, 2003 10:11am PT

If you belive in some thing then why the hypocricy of prasing some thing else?

One can praise some parts of others religion sure. Muslims dont deny that there may be some aspects of other religions which might be good even praiseworthy. But their stand is that their religon is more comprehensive.
There is no harm in prasing individuals for their contributions even if it is through their religious belifs.
If some thing else was good why not give up your belifs? I can understand the logic of respecting the other persons choice but to say it is equally good or better is nothing but hypocricy.

Various posters here are arguing if Muslims were converted by force or through idealism. Does it really matter? If the Muslim of today is a Muslim by choice, what right does a Hindu have to question whether the said Muslims` ancestors converted by force or not.

I am all for passing snide remarks as it is good entertainment and time pass. But it is absolute folly to actually start believing that there is one homogenous set of people who are defined by religion.

It is also pretty dumb to try and second guess some dude who happened to change HIS RELIGION AND HAS BEEN DEAD 400 YEARS.

#163 by arjun_m on January 30, 2003 11:06am PT

are you denying that sravarkar propunded the theroy said that the two people had nothign in common and cannot live together?