Once Upon A Time: When The World Spoke Arabic

`Never has a muslim country honoured a non muslm, that has endured through the gaes, and that is an aspect of the islamic civilisation

Pakistan has honored non Muslims. They were all Islam lovers :)

Gulab Jamun can post politically correct non Muslims praising Islam, but a Muslim leader can never praise any religion other than Islam.

This is called Arabic slavery :) :)

something about nero fiddling:

The Indian Express, Jan.25,2003.

Parivar dusts off an old dispute in MP

Bhopal, January 24: An 11th century structure, which once housed a university and has a temple and a mosque side by side, in Dhar district is becoming Chief Minister Digvijay Singh’s latest headache. Bhojshala, as the structure is known as, had grabbed the Sangh Parivar’s attention post-Ayodhya, between 1995 and 1997. A resurgent Parivar now shows signs of reviving the issue in the run-up the assembly elections.

http://www.dawn.com/2003/01/28/nat6.htm

MPAs resent Punjab official`s remarks

KARACHI, Jan 27: The Sindh Assembly on Monday expressed concern over the reported remarks by the Punjab Water Council Coordinator, Hamid Malahi, that Punjab was mentally prepared to accept Sindh`s separation on water issue.

Mr Malahi was quoted by a Hyderabad based Sindhi language daily as saying: ``We are annoyed at the blackmailing by Sindh on water distribution issue. We are mentally prepared to accept Sindh`s separation on the issue of Kalabagh dam.``

#151 Saminasha

While I share your disgust as the kind of ethnocentrism and malice present in the piece you quoted, I think it is important that Chowk allow the publication of *most* commentary (personal attacks or threats exempted) of this type.

One of the striking things in South Asia how many sickening stereotypes about hating the other may be found in the populace. Perfectly ``nice`` people will say things like ``Hindus are basically treacherous cowards`` or ``Muslims are aggressive grabbers`` etc. Many of these statements re delivered with a kind of strange naivete and often in complete variance to reality (perhaps many of these are ``folk sayings`` that are nutured within the community or family unit? Hence they are things children learn early and pre-rationally?)

By airing these things and forcing the originators to debate these beliefs we are performing a service to the whole community. One day perhaps some intrepid CHowkie could publish a FAQ listing these ``beliefs``, their origins and why they are offensive and not supported by fact.

GZ #153 you write ``Laan`at on such margarine-muslims---the zanees & sharabis, advocates of alternate-orficism and solicitors of direct-orificism (ACDCs) ``
Did you learn this language from your mother? And do you normally use such language at home, or is it simply reserved for strangers to read on chowk (many of whom you know are women)?

For MUSLIMS only.

Another eye-opening writeup in continuation with the present article. It is extremely important to remember the past AS WELL AS redress the ills of the present. One compliments the other.

This information was suppressed for a long time and those enamoured & sucked into the unglee-lileechured mindset developed such self-loathing that they joined the adversary to spit upon their own parents & kick them out of their house. Proof enough of their unglishness.

Laan`at on such margarine-muslims---the zanees & sharabis, advocates of alternate-orficism and solicitors of direct-orificism (ACDCs)

____________________________________________________________
Western writers have often used the word Arabs or Muhammadans for Muslims and Arabic civilization for Islamic Civilization. In other instances, the words Saracen(ic) and Moor(ish) are also used for Muslims (Arabs and non-Arabs) from various parts of Europe, Africa, Arabia and Asia. According to a tradition of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) anyone whose primary language is Arabic is an Arab despite his ethnic origin, place of birth, or national origin. Arabic was the medium of communication throughout the Muslim world until a couple of centuries ago, regardless of the type of activity whether religious, social or scientific. During 800-1500 C.E. essentially all scientific works were written in Arabic. It is only after colonization of Muslim lands that this practice became less prevalent and in many instances was eliminated.


George Sarton`s Tribute to Muslim Scientists in the ``Introduction to the History of Science,`` I


``It will suffice here to evoke a few glorious names without contemporary equivalents in the West: Jabir ibn Haiyan, al-Kindi, al-Khwarizmi, al-Fargani, al-Razi, Thabit ibn Qurra, al-Battani, Hunain ibn Ishaq, al-Farabi, Ibrahim ibn Sinan, al-Masudi, al-Tabari, Abul Wafa, `Ali ibn Abbas, Abul Qasim, Ibn al-Jazzar, al-Biruni, Ibn Sina, Ibn Yunus, al-Kashi, Ibn al-Haitham, `Ali Ibn `Isa al-Ghazali, al-zarqab, Omar Khayyam. A magnificent array of names which it would not be difficult to extend. If anyone tells you that the Middle Ages were scientifically sterile, just quote these men to him, all of whom flourished within a short period, 750 to 1100 A.D.``


John William Draper in the ``Intellectual Development of Europe``


``I have to deplore the systematic manner in which the literature of Europe has continued to put out of sight our obligations to the Muhammadans. Surely they cannot be much longer hidden. Injustice founded on religious rancour and national conceit cannot be perpetuated forever. The Arab has left his intellectual impress on Europe. He has indelibly written it on the heavens as any one may see who reads the names of the stars on a common celestial globe.``


Robert Briffault in the ``Making of Humanity``


``It was under the influence of the arabs and Moorish revival of culture and not in the 15th century, that a real renaissance took place. Spain, not Italy, was the cradle of the rebirth of Europe. After steadily sinking lower and lower into barbarism, it had reached the darkest depths of ignorance and degradation when cities of the Saracenic world, Baghdad, Cairo, Cordova, and Toledo, were growing centers of civilization and intellectual activity. It was there that the new life arose which was to grow into new phase of human evolution. From the time when the influence of their culture made itself felt, began the stirring of new life.
``It was under their successors at Oxford School (that is, successors to the Muslims of Spain) that Roger Bacon learned Arabic and Arabic Sciences. Neither Roger Bacon nor later namesake has any title to be credited with having introduced the experimental method. Roger Bacon was no more than one of apostles of Muslim Science and Method to Christian Europe; and he never wearied of declaring that knowledge of Arabic and Arabic Sciences was for his contemporaries the only way to true knowledge. Discussion as to who was the originator of the experimental method....are part of the colossal misinterpretation of the origins of European civilization. The experimental method of Arabs was by Bacon`s time widespread and eagerly cultivated throughout Europe.

``Science is the most momentous contribution of Arab civilization to the modern world; but its fruits were slow in ripening. Not until long after Moorish culture had sunk back into darkness did the giant, which it had given birth to, rise in his might. It was not science only which brought Europe back to life. Other and manifold influence from the civilization of Islam communicated its first glow to European Life.

``For Although there is not a single aspect of European growth in which the decisive influence of Islamic Culture is not traceable, nowhere is it so clear and momentous as in the genesis of that power which constitutes the permanent distinctive force of the modern world, and the supreme source of its victory, natural science and the scientific spirit.

``The debt of our science to that of the Arabs does not consist in startling discoveries or revolutionary theories, science owes a great deal more to Arab culture, it owes its existence. The Astronomy and Mathematics of the Greeks were a foreign importation never thoroughly acclimatized in Greek culture. The Greeks systematized, generalized and theorized, but the patient ways of investigation, the accumulation of positive knowledge, the minute method of science, detailed and prolonged observation and experimental inquiry were altogether alien to the Greek temperament. Only in Hellenistic Alexandria was any approach to scientific work conducted in the ancient classical world. What we call science arose in Europe as a result of new spirit of enquiry, of new methods of experiment, observation, measurement, of the development of mathematics, in a form unknown to the Greeks. That spirit and those methods were introduced into the European world by the Arabs.

``It is highly probable that but for the Arabs, modern European civilization would never have arisen at all; it is absolutely certain that but for them, it would not have assumed that character which has enabled it to transcend all previous phases of evolution.``



Arnold and Guillaume in ``Lagacy of Islam`` on Islamic science and medicine


``Looking back we may say that Islamic medicine and science reflected the light of the Hellenic sun, when its day had fled, and that they shone like a moon, illuminating the darkest night of the European middle Ages; that some bright stars lent their own light, and that moon and stars alike faded at the dawn of a new day - the Renaissance. Since they had their share in the direction and introduction of that great movement, it may reasonably be claimed that they are with us yet.``


George Sarton in the ``Introduction to the History of Science``


``During the reign of Caliph Al-Mamun (813-33 A.D.), the new learning reached its climax. The monarch created in Baghdad a regular school for translation. It was equipped with a library, one of the translators there was Hunayn Ibn Ishaq (809-77) a particularly gifted philosopher and physician of wide erudition, the dominating figure of this century of translators. We know from his own recently published Memoir that he translated practically the whole immense corpus of Galenic writings.``
``Besides the translation of Greek works and their extracts, the translators made manuals of which one form, that of the `pandects,` is typical of the period of Arabic learning. These are recapitulations of the whole medicine, discussing the affections of the body, systematically beginning at the head and working down to the feet.``

``The Muslim ideal was, it goes without saying, not visual beauty but God in His plentitude; that is God with all his manifestations, the stars and the heavens, the earth and all nature. The Muslim ideal is thus infinite. But in dealing with the infinite as conceived by the Muslims, we cannot limit ourselves to the space alone, but must equally consider time.

``The first mathematical step from the Greek conception of a static universe to the Islamic one of a dynamic universe was made by Al-Khwarizmi (780-850), the founder of modern Algebra. He enhanced the purely arithmetical character of numbers as finite magnitudes by demonstrating their possibilities as elements of infinite manipulations and investigations of properties and relations.

``In Greek mathematics, the numbers could expand only by the laborious process of addition and multiplication. Khwarizmi`s algebraic symbols for numbers contain within themselves the potentialities of the infinite. So we might say that the advance from arithmetic to algebra implies a step from being to `becoming` from the Greek universe to the living universe of Islam. The importance of Khwarizmi`s algebra was recognized, in the twelfth century, by the West, - when Girard of Cremona translated his theses into Latin. Until the sixteenth century this version was used in European universities as the principal mathematical text book. But Khwarizmi`s influence reached far beyond the universities. We find it reflected in the mathematical works of Leonardo Fibinacci of Pissa, Master Jacob of Florence, and even of Leonardo da Vinci.``

``Through their medical investigations they not merely widened the horizons of medicine, but enlarged humanistic concepts generally. And once again they brought this about because of their over riding spiritual convictions. Thus it can hardly have been accidental that those researches should have led them that were inevitably beyond the reach of Greek masters. If it is regarded as symbolic that the most spectacular achievement of the mid-twentieth century is atomic fission and the nuclear bomb, likewise it would not seem fortuitous that the early Muslim`s medical endeavor should have led to a discovery that was quite as revolutionary though possibly more beneficent.``

``A philosophy of self-centredness, under whatever disguise, would be both incomprehensible and reprehensible to the Muslim mind. That mind was incapable of viewing man, whether in health or sickness as isolated from God, from fellow men, and from the world around him. It was probably inevitable that the Muslims should have discovered that disease need not be born within the patient himself but may reach from outside, in other words, that they should have been the first to establish clearly the existence of contagion.``

``One of the most famous exponents of Muslim universalism and an eminent figure in Islamic learning was Ibn Sina, known in the West as Avicenna (981-1037). For a thousand years he has retained his original renown as one of the greatest thinkers and medical scholars in history. His most important medical works are the Qanun (Canon) and a treatise on Cardiac drugs. The `Qanun fi-l-Tibb` is an immense encyclopedia of medicine. It contains some of the most illuminating thoughts pertaining to distinction of mediastinitis from pleurisy; contagious nature of phthisis; distribution of diseases by water and soil; careful description of skin troubles; of sexual diseases and perversions; of nervous ailments.``

``We have reason to believe that when, during the crusades, Europe at last began to establish hospitals, they were inspired by the Arabs of near East....The first hospital in Paris, Les Quinze-vingt, was founded by Louis IX after his return from the crusade 1254-1260.``

``We find in his (Jabir, Geber) writings remarkably sound views on methods of chemical research, a theory on the geologic formation of metals (the six metals differ essentially because of different proportions of sulphur and mercury in them); preparation of various substances (e.g., basic lead carbonatic, arsenic and antimony from their sulphides).``

Ibn Haytham`s writings reveal his fine development of the experimental faculty. His tables of corresponding angles of incidence and refraction of light passing from one medium to another show how closely he had approached discovering the law of constancy of ratio of sines, later attributed to snell. He accounted correctly for twilight as due to atmospheric refraction, estimating the sun`s depression to be 19 degrees below the horizon, at the commencement of the phenomenon in the mornings or at its termination in the evenings.``

``A great deal of geographical as well as historical and scientific knowledge is contained in the thirty volume meadows of Gold and Mines of Gems by one of the leading Muslim Historians, the tenth century al Mas`udi. A more strictly geographical work is the dictionary `Mujam al-Buldan` by al-Hamami (1179-1229). This is a veritable encyclopedia that, in going far beyond the confines of geography, incorporates also a great deal of scientific lore.``

``They studied, collected and described plants that might have some utilitarian purpose, whether in agriculture or in medicine. These excellent tendencies, without equivalent in Christendom, were continued during the first half of the thirteenth century by an admirable group of four botanists. One of these Ibn al-Baitar compiled the most elaborate Arabic work on the subject (Botany), in fact the most important for the whole period extending from Dioscorides down to the sixteenth century. It was a true encyclopedia on the subject, incorporating the whole Greek and Arabic experience.``

```Abd al-Malik ibn Quraib al-Asmai (739-831) was a pious Arab who wrote some valuable books on human anatomy. Al-Jawaliqi who flourished in the first half of the twelfth century and `Abd al-Mumin who flourished in the second half of the thirteenth century in Egypt, wrote treatises on horses. The greatest zoologist amongst the Arabs was al-Damiri (1405) of Egypt whose book on animal life, `Hayat al-Hayawan` has been translated into English by A.S.G. Jayakar (London 1906, 1908).``

``The weight of venerable authority, for example that of Ptolemy, seldom intimidated them. They were always eager to put a theory to tests, and they never tired of experimentation. Though motivated and permeated by the spirit of their religion, they would not allow dogma as interpreted by the orthodox to stand in the way of their scientific research.``

Brother ali 87,

My interest in islam is only to the extend that pakistan is an islamic country. Muslims, I have lived with them all through my life. To me the muslims of india are the ones for whom central values of the book has been modified by the surrounding culture.

For pakistan, it is different, all of kafirian cultural remnants have bees systematically removed through the k for kafir education system and by the late sventies the children of TNT had finally emerged. That is the time the jihadists became the dominant force symbolised by the emergence of Zia. What is important is that the hoodood ordinance, blasphemey laws and instutionalised denigration of ahmadias, survived the democratic and liberal Mrs Bhutto, the business man Sheriff and noe the great visionary of musheraff. There are times, brother ali, when the truth stares at your eyes, accept it that the legal frame work installed by Zia has widespread support in pakistan and they are in tuene with islam. Please, accept that if there were to be any contrdiction in any of the laws of pakistan, including legitimisation of honour killings, the sheria court would have struck it down. You have cited several instances of crimnality in india, what I have alwys pointed out is the legal frame work sanctioned by the sheria courts and one has to accept that none of them are in conflict with the book.

When you look at the operational religion of an islamic country, one has to look at only the institutional arrangements, the legal frame work.

What ever you might say, there is a predominant tendencyin india to respect and idolise any one who rises beyond the average. Pakistanis denounce .....

more to ali 87,

Pakistanis mostly denounce the election of abdul kalam as indian president as a mere act of symbolism. But one has to realise that before becoming president he was the scientific advosr, that has the rank of a cabinet minister, before that he was the director general of ISRO that employs may be 20,000 scientists, all from a beginning in a winswept beach in rameswaram, a hindu temple town, in tamil nadu. May be his simple life, it is alleged that till he became the president he had only two shirts and two dhotis, elevated him to the level of a may be more among the hindus than among the muslims and probably supported his rise through the indian beaurocracy. To be this is the strength of india, strength of the indian value system.

Now my dear friend take the case of abdus salam in pakistan, today 29th January is his birth anniversary. I looked at all of the pak papers for an article, for an editorial. Looked at chowk for an article. Look forward to the day when chowk, insted of calling its section university avenue will call it salam avenue. All through the pakistani mindset, there is that undying support for what Zia instituted, because it is in tune with the book, and you will never ever see abdus salam being honoured. Never has a muslim country honoured a non muslm, that has endured through the gaes, and that is an aspect of the islamic civilisation.

more to brother ali 87,

STORY FROM KERALA,

iT WAS, IF I REMEBER CORRECTLY, IN 1998, that was the 500 year of the landing of vasco da gama in Calicut. There some activities, largely funded by the portugese, and under pressure from them, govt of india wanted to install a statue of vaco da gama in the beach, where he landed. There was a govt function, but a lot of local people organised a demonstration, they came in war clothes of the period, chanted the traditional proud songs of kerala, and they demanded that if a ststue of vasco da gama is to be installed, next to it, there should be a statue of Kujhali Marikkar, the naval chief of the samoothiris, the local king who fought vasco. No statue of vasco was installed. Kunhali Marikkar was a muslim, the people who de,aned the statue of kunjhali were not muslims, they were simply keralites, mostly hindus.

Ask any pakistani about lala lajpat rai, ask them about lala`s house in lahore, ask any pakistani about lala lajpat rais role in freedom movement. To me that ignorence is the islam of pakistan, that is the outcome of the sheria court approived education.

ali87 #143 You are right in that mullahs are not an organized bureaucracy of priests (like the Roman Catholic church for example). But what I am saying is that the very idea that you need someone to deliver a khutba is wrong and should be abolished. And it is wrong because this assumes that the message of islam is so complicated that it requires people with special knowledge to explain it to the layman. This is like saying that one needs a man with special knowledge to explain to grown up persons how to cross the road without getting run over by a truck. After all, what part of ``be honest in your dealings``, ``keep your word``, ``be kind to others``, ``dont create mischief in this world`` does a grown up person not understand? And one does not even need to be a muslim to understand such things, since these are universally accepted values and not the monopoly of islam.

#126 by harimau on January 29, 2003 6:17pm PT

I dont recall any presence of any overt police informant neither did any muslim there indicate that.
Singapore was apart of Malaysia. Chinise like Indians are pretty recent migrants and were expected to be repartiated back to their native lands as late as the first half of the 20th century.

Singapaore seperated from Malaysia after three years with the malay federation.

Obviously malay people will have loyalty towards malaysia more than the chinise. If they are not allowed in the army i think it is a logical move. However they are not killed or burnt or pilloried from time to time.
They find practically no discrimination in any other aspect of life. I would say that they are getting a good bargain.

you may be right about vaniyambadi election I have no knowledge about it. Jaffersherrif runs from the bangalore north constituency where nearly 40% electorate is muslim If he were to run from the bangalore south constituncey he most likely will lose despite his secualr credentials and broad experience.

Regarding the sepreate representation it could be one of the way to solve the issue of taking care of the voice of muslims. It may work or not work. But first admitting the problem it self is a first step. Religous isssues are generally taken care of more or less. but the issue of culture and language is a key issue in human life. First admit the problem then explore the possible solutions.

for instance punjab has a population of 23 millon, manipur of 2.2 millon, karnataka of 55 millon, andhrapradesh of 74 millon west bengal of 78 millon, kerala of 32 million. they all have their own language culture taken care of by a state frame work.

There must be at least 60-70 millon mulsims who must speak urdu? what of the larger set of 120 who have a culture which is quite different from their same language compatriots.(dont qubbile here there are similarites just as there are differneces) Is there any way the state takes these issues into account? Why should they be deprived of the same facitities that others get just because they are dispresed all over India?
Why should muslims pay for what happened in 1900? If the rest of the people have problem with it then the solution shoudl be to address their concerns not push the concerns of muslims under the carpet.

An largely defunct Urdu Academy in Hyderabad now has a board which consists entierly of people who can neither understand spoken urdu nor read much less write. Is this right? Who will raise these issues? if there are not enough people in the assemblies then who is bothered about it?

Are you not aware how some constituencies are artificially created so that muslims majority areas are divided and attached with hindu majority populations? Why is this ignored? there is one such constituency in bangalore and three in Hyderabad Im told that this is the case in many other places.

The need to work with others and form alliances is good strategy but what about the existing strength which is being diluted?

There are practically no muslims in New Delhi because there they are not represented in Govt Jobs most of New Delhi is populated by govt servants. They dont own business either there and live in the private colonies most of whom are populated by punjabis or jats.
the reason for lack of represnetation in govt jobs are
1) lack of education 2) lack of acess to jobs because of passive discrimination ie favouring one of our kind 3) lack of acess to jobs because of active discrimination ie refusing to take muslims at any cost. 4) lack of understanding in muslims on the value of education and need to forge alliances.


I too lived in Delhi and was there during the 84 roits. We witinessed an intresting thing apart from the roits. We used to live near the panchquia road the furniture market which has mostly sikh shops. People from my neighbour hood took on seeing everyone taking what ever they want from the shops took a few things themselves after some initial heistiation. I watched my friends do this helplessly tired to reason that it is morally wrong. They reasoned that since every one is taking there is no harm as it will be taken by some one else any way. What was amazing that a few days later the mid level and lower level police officers took quite a bit of effort to go around localaites and appeal people to return the stuff either to the shops or to the police station and promised that there would be no case booked or remark made, amazingly 30% of the goods were returned and my friends too shamefacedly returned the goods much to the gratitude of the shopkeepers. It was humbling to watch this coming form midlevel police officers. I was told that even people from slums returned stuff.
when I read about gujrat I was wondering how many among the thouands who are supposed to have taken part in looting would be feeling remorse. How many who particpate in the mobs burning and looting would feel that they did was wrong?

On the question of quest for more say in polices that affect people It is not only muslims or Urdu speakign people who ask for it. Neither does it automaticily lead to gettoiation. (which incidently has some good points the jews used this successfuly to preserve their Identity.) the kodagus of costal karnataka are asking for a seperate state or council like region within the state citing cultural diffrences with the mainstream kannidagas. they are not labelled anti national. Niether can they be called poor or uneducated in fact they are quite entepurnial.

Pakistans formation could be looked from the point of assimilation or from the point of people wanting to be incharge of their destiny. Same as how chattisghar is formed or lingiistic states were formed within India. Only it is totatly sepereate. I feel that if our leaders were more statesman like they could have had got some form of compromise to benifit of all. there might be pitfalls though one cant say much about such things for certain.

re:
``...Knowing & learning about hindus & hinduism is never on any Pakistanis agenda. A hindu to them is someone remote, ancient, and bald-headed chutyaad/bodhheed subzee-eater( not vegetarian but subzee-khore--there IS a difference)


You have this annoying habit of saying ` muslims should...` Pakistan should.....` etc. I did point this out earlier but perhaps you are not aware of it.

You have no business to tell others how to live, read or not read Quran whichever way, prefer to be poor or be fighting-type. It does not sit well with any muslim if he is mistaken for one with hinduistic attributes---- especially from a hindu. It is an ultimate putdown for a Pakistani muslim. To a Pakistani & muslim mind such a behaviour is calaumnious.

What you fail to understand is that we muslims from Pakistan have never ever even seen a hindu (overwhelming majority of us) except in the third-rate movies by so-called Bollywood ( how much slavish can you be).
To a muslim & Pakistani mind this is not /art as you might fancy it. It is simply some vulgar kuffar or kuffar-types (the margarine-muslims khans etc) who do not mind to entertain by body-display like bhaands & meerasees of yore.
Muslims enjoy the show and appreciate the actors as much as one appreciates an animal or human circus or acrobatics. Just a show. Time-pass.

No matter how much you try to cover-up by the glitz & gaudiness of Bollywood( how slavish indeed) but to a Pakistani muslims mind India will always be the dirt, Aids, filth, leprosy and poverty & over-all ugliness. All the returning tourists talk & write about these things. Why should a make-believe movie change that image for a Pakistani. Its afterall only a show-off...``

Chowkies,

Why is this bigotry tolerated on Chowk?

stuka, ali

You know, the one community/religion I admire the MOST is Parsis. Being a Bombayite, I`ve had the priviledge of interacting with tons of them. If I wanted to change my religion, I would have opted for their religion....hands down! ...er, though, I would definitely stipulate that after I die, my body be burnt in the ``new, improved`` crematoriums. I`d rather become toast than have my carcass eaten by a vulture...thankYOU very much---thats taking philanthropy a bit TOO far; IMHO!!:))

But those Goddamned snobbish ``kekda-khaoos`` have a ``closed`` membership! I mean I cant even convert to Zohrastrianism, even if I married a bawa!! I think it had to do with some promise (I`m not sure)--when the Parsi community came to Gujrat, cos they were ? persecuted by the Persian muslims, they promised the local hundu king that they will assimilate into the local society (like sugar in milk) & not convert anybody. Jesus Christ!! talk about keeping a frikking promise!!

Nevermind, that they assimilated in the glass of milk...but thanks to their own ingenuity & the British (they are diehard Anglophiles), they became the CREAM of Indian society...and still are. Personally, I believe they richly DESERVE to be the cream..

They are one of the MOST literate, in fact, HIGHLY educated, upwardly mobile,ethical & intelligent people in the world. Their business sense & ``sense of incorruptibility`` is also admirable. Their dry sense of humor will even put Yiddish to shame. They laugh & criticise themselves frequently & openly. They also openly acknowledge they are very neurotic; (kinda like the Seinfeld NY Jewish microcosm). One of my good bawa friends made a very ``famous`` (& relevant) statement: ``Out of 10 Parsis, 9 are intelligently crazy ---& the 10th one is an absolute genious!``.

Unfortunately, there is a legitimate concern among Parsis (& hotly debated among the Parsis themselves) to be a little more ``assimilative``. Their numbers are declining & there is an increase in the rates of schizophrenia, diabetes & other inhertited diseases because of ...er..``inbreeding``--perhaps thats too insensitive a word to use against such a fine community. The BEST doctors in Bombay, BTW, (in the 70s, atleast) were Parsis...that goes for lawyers, accountantants & other professionals.

Interestingly, in my personally opinion, Parsis, though, the think they are ``teeny-weeny`` separate from S.Asians..(some snobbish SOBs, even call us ``natives``--but without malice) ---they DONT migrate abroad--if they do, theyll go to England..more than the US. I very rarely come across a bawa in the US. I think they have given India much much more than they have taken ( I suspect Pakistan too---after reading Cowasjee).

Man...to become a bawa is a priviledge; I hope they relax the rules of ``membership``--who knows; they might make an exception for a crazy brahmin shrink like me...Lord knows, they NEED one!:)))

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#137 by rsridhar on January 29, 2003 9:33pm PT

I think that both sridhar probably Jay deserve a apology from my side. I intended to bring into picutre the whole gamut of issues and that couldnt be done without provocation.

My contentions on Urdu as well as on proportional or more accomodations were just theoritical. Im aware that in parctice there may be many pitfalls. My intention not to argue about one point or the other and prove that im right. Im a pretty confident person neither i take any discrimination lying down nor make too much of those which are not worth fighting for.
My intention in all these arguments (I think is that I have covered a broad range them) Is that a muslim can talk of all them and there is nothing wrong in it. It may or may not mean that he has divisive Ideas.

A muslim may expound on dhimmis, on halal meat, on the Instituion of Khalifa, have a negative or positve opinon on TNT or suppourt the instituion of Khalifa or Islamic govt in Islamic majority lands, or make a case for proportional representation , on urdu or on discrimination that should not be first treated as him being anti-national or being disruptive.

You should regard these issues in the logical sense and give logical arguments. For instantce even Gandhi suppourted khalifat movement. So did khan abdul gaffar khan. Im sure he would have found noting wrong in Halal cerifiying. He did not find much wrong in negotiating with jinhha.
It is wrong to demonise pakistanis or the TNT theory it only gives rise to hate. that is what the pakistani establishment is doing across the border.
remeber that our leaders agreed to the two nation theory.

To constantly take on muslims, pakistanis or arabs is plain childness at worst constantly keeping the hate pot boiling. Constantly harping on their shortcomings is neither graceful nor intellengent.

If you want to get some change give respect, understand the issues, suggest solutions. Some thing that hardly happens onthis board.

It is true without these allegations and counter allegations it will be a dull board. But think could we utilize it for better pourpouse. Whywait for some messhiah to solve this problems. Im sure that you are having some intreset in it. I cant imangine why any one would spend considreable time just denouncing the other if he had no pourpouse of achivieng a better understanding.

I think there is no established system of mullahs. Any one can give the qutba as long he is knowledgable. Problem is that educated muslims do not bother to get this knowlege. So the mantle falls on the poor people who take it as a profession for a pittance of a salary. (This is not to say that poor people necessarily not knowledgeable or ingorant of modern socitey)It happens here in US where any one knowlegeable is invited to give the Qutba at least in the few masjids that I attend.

The part regarding reciting without imbimbing the sprit and putting it in practice is true. but who can change it? Nobody from outside is going to come and change things. It has to be done by people who are affected by the problem. If that means investing a bit more time into gaining knowlege of Islam it is not a big sacrifice. Nothing will happen if we wring our hands and withdraw.

We find it ok to take up various courses no treleated to our professions or pursue hobbies of intrest and spend a great deal of time and money in it. It would be better utilised if we could spend in gaining authoritiatve knowledge of islam.

harimau # 141

`In Tibet, the Chinese execute people for that.

Muhammad executed people for much less :)