Once Upon A Time: When The World Spoke Arabic

re: #129 by sadna
Thanks for the info.
Indeed, extending your argument further, we can say that we are all part of a global community and are in a way related to one another. This is what Advaita says. At spiritual level, we are all the same.
As the old sanskrit saying goes:
`` Eyam nijo paroveti ganana laghuchetasaam
Udaracharitanamtu vasudeiva kutumbakam``
(This is mine, that is yours: these are the talks of a narrow minded person; for the broad minded, the whole world is a family).
Let the interactors in Chowk who object to my usage of the word ``assimilate`` take it in that spirit.
rgds,
Sridhar

Ali87
You should stop lying. Unlike you, we are not living in a time of 1300 years ago. Dhimmi means protected people and much more. What does it mean to be a dhimmi and not a full citizen? What are the rights of non Muslims in your barbaric framework of dhimmihood?

rsridhar:
Please read below as dispassionately as you can. It is supposed to educate you about the majority mind-set of a Pakistani muslim---rural & some urban. Accept it as it is, No need to analyse or rationalise. Try to understand this with similar meek & docile a fashion as you come to terms with the cowboyism of America.
You would never ever find a muslim Pakistani here telling you how `you should....`. They don`t want to change you & do not expect anyone, especially a subjugated one, to tell them `you should..`.

They fight and expect the other to fight back.

Knowing & learning about hindus & hinduism is never on any Pakistanis agenda. A hindu to them is someone remote, ancient, and bald-headed chutyaad/bodhheed subzee-eater( not vegetarian but subzee-khore--there IS a difference)


You have this annoying habit of saying ` muslims should...` Pakistan should.....` etc. I did point this out earlier but perhaps you are not aware of it.

You have no business to tell others how to live, read or not read Quran whichever way, prefer to be poor or be fighting-type. It does not sit well with any muslim if he is mistaken for one with hinduistic attributes---- especially from a hindu. It is an ultimate putdown for a Pakistani muslim. To a Pakistani & muslim mind such a behaviour is calaumnious.

What you fail to understand is that we muslims from Pakistan have never ever even seen a hindu (overwhelming majority of us) except in the third-rate movies by so-called Bollywood ( how much slavish can you be).
To a muslim & Pakistani mind this is not /art as you might fancy it. It is simply some vulgar kuffar or kuffar-types (the margarine-muslims khans etc) who do not mind to entertain by body-display like bhaands & meerasees of yore.
Muslims enjoy the show and appreciate the actors as much as one appreciates an animal or human circus or acrobatics. Just a show. Time-pass.

No matter how much you try to cover-up by the glitz & gaudiness of Bollywood( how slavish indeed) but to a Pakistani muslims mind India will always be the dirt, Aids, filth, leprosy and poverty & over-all ugliness. All the returning tourists talk & write about these things. Why should a make-believe movie change that image for a Pakistani. Its afterall only a show-off.
____________________________________________________________
Now to cheer you up :
Listen to what others say about the benefits Islam has bestowed upon India.
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Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru (India`s Prime Minsiter 1947-64) in ‘The Discovery of India,’ 1946, p. 218, 225.

“The coming of Islam and of a considerable number of people from outside with different ways of living and thought affected these beliefs and structure. A foreign conquest, with all its evils, has one advantage: it widens the mental horizon of the people and compels them to look out of their shells. They realize that the world is a much bigger and a more variegated place than they had imagined. So the Afghan conquest had affected India and many changes had taken place. Even more so the Moghals, who were far more cultured and advanced in the ways of living than the Afghans, brought changes to India. In particular, they introduced the refinements for which Iran was famous.”



Dr. Pattabhi Sitaramayya, Presidential Address to the Fifty-fifth Session of the Indian Congress, Jaipur, 1948.

“(The Muslims had) enriched our culture, strengthened our administration, and brought near distant parts of the country... It (the Muslim Period) touched deeply the social life and the literature of the land.”



Humayun Kabir in `The Indian Heritage,` 1955, p. 153.

“Islam`s democratic challenge has perhaps never been equaled by any other religious or social system. Its advent on the Indian scene was marked by a profound stirring of consciousness. It modified the basis of Hindu social structure throughout northern India.”



N.S. Mehta, in `Islam and the Indian Civilization,` reproduced in `Hindustan ke Ahd-i-Wusta ki ek Jhalak,` by S.A. Rahman.

“Islam had brought to India a luminous torch which rescued humanity from darkness at a time when old civilizations were on the decline and lofty moral ideals had got reduced to empty intellectual concepts. As in other lands, so in India too, the conquests of Islam were more widespread in the world of thought than in the world of politics. Today, also, the Islamic World is a spiritual brotherhood which is held together by community of faith in the Oneness of God and human equality. Unfortunately, the history of Islam in this country remained tied up for centuries with that of government with the result that a veil was cast over its true spirit, and its fruits and blessings were hidden from the popular eye.”



Dr. Gustav le Bon in `Les Civilisations de L`Inde` (translated by S.A. Bilgrami).

``There does not exist a history of ancient India. Their books contain no historical data whatever, except for a few religious books in which historical information is buried under a heap of parables and folk-lore, and their buildings and other monuments also do nothing to fill the void for the oldest among them do not go beyond the third century B.C. To discover facts about India of the ancient times is as difficult a task as the discovery of the island of Atlantis, which, according to Plato, was destroyed due to the changes of the earth... The historical phase of India began with the Muslim invasion. Muslims were India`s first historians.``



Sir William Digby in `Prosperous India: A Revelation,` p. 30.

``England`s industrial supremacy owes its origin to the vast hoards of Bengal and the Karnatik being made available for her use....Before Plassey was fought and won, and before the stream of treasure began to flow to England, the industries of our country were at a very low ebb.``



Brooks Adams in `The Law of Civilization and Decay,` London, 1898, pp. 313-17.

``Very soon after Plassey the Bengal plunder began to arrive in London, and the effect appears to have been instantaneous, for all authorities agree that the Industrial Revolution, the event that has divided the l9th century from all antecedent time, began with the year 1760....Plassey was fought in 1757, and probably nothing has ever equaled the rapidity of the change which followed....In themselves inventions are passive, many of the most important having laid dormant for centuries, waiting for a sufficient store of force to have accumulated to have set them working. That store must always take the shape of money, and money not hoarded, but in motion.
``...Before the influx of the Indian treasure, and the expansion of credit which followed, no force sufficient for this purpose existed....``

Ref ali87 #120

[After agreeeing to be with the Indian Union what antics did Sheik Abdullah play that he couldnt play when he had the choice not to agree to the accession?]

Sheikh Abdullah started sending out signals that he wanted Kashmiri independence. That was something he could not do while the Pakistani Army and the tribal irregulars were invading Kashmir in October 1947. That was the reason he was dismissed as Chief Minister of Kashmir and kept in confinement in Ooty. At least, he was kept in a nice bungalow at 8,000 feet elevation (similar to Kashmir in climate) for trying to play India against Pakistan and both sides against the middle. In Tibet, the Chinese execute people for that.

[Can you point out any muslim politican who comes does not come from muslim majority area?

There was an exception though in AR Antulay who was the second muslim cheif minister. The other was I think one Ibrahim Im not sure wethere which state this was. These are rare exceptions.]

Thanks for admitting there are exceptions. There are those like 12-Head who deny it altogether.

Is that exception due to (a) Hindu generosity, (b) the individual candidate`s outstanding ability, (c) political approval from top leadership? My own opinion is that it is a combination of (b) and (c). At least, Muslim candidates for office should understand that and not depend on (a) which may not be forthcoming nor should they take refuge in separate constituencies. That labels them as MUSLIMS, not as politicians of a specific party. Once they understand and play the politics of the equations of power, they will be as successful as AR Antulay or Barkhatulla Khan.

Isn`t Omar Abdullah being offered a cabinet position by Vajpayee now, which he has declined? Isn`t the minister for civil aviation in Vajpayee`s ministry a Muslim?

If you bemoan the lack of PROPORTIONAL representation in the cabinet for Muslims, consider what Vajpayee has to satisfy. He has to allocate enough portfolios to coalition partners (there are 21 political parties in the NDA), he has to ensure that the BJP cabinet positions are distributed among BJP loyalists, across various states, and across various castes. A populous state like UP will have to have more seats and that might mean that states like Nagaland, Mizoram, Tripura, Manipur, Arunachal Pradesh and Assam might have no representation in the cabinet.

Exactly what did the Congress offer the Muslims when they had monopoly power at the center for 35 years? So, why blame the BJP alone for its ``Hindutva`` agenda? Didn`t the Congress cheat the Muslims while pretending to be their champions?

[I incidently see many more nations existing like Nepal, Srilanka, maldives etc. How come you dont want to cover them with the unity in diversity formula?]

Why should we? We inherited British India and we are saying we will protect its territorial integrity. In fact, if Nepal had a status similar to the erstwhile Mysore kingdom, it would have been part of India. Since it remained independent of the British, it remains independent of India. As for Sri Lanka, but for the Tamil kingdoms of circa 1000 AD in its northern part, it has never been part of India though the Sinhalese claim descent from a Bengali prince and princess.

By the way, Sikkim tried playing China against India. The result was the king was deposed and the kingdom was absorbed into India as a state much like the British had done in the 19th century. This hasn`t happened to Bhutan because Bhutan ``behaves``. At some point, people have to understand that their geographical location makes them vulnerable. Sikkim/Bhutan butt against India at its narrowest point in its border with Bangladesh. Any mischief by the Chinese would cut off the entire Northeast from India. The Indian government rightly could not allow that to happen and hence the loss of Sikkim`s nominal independence.

re:#126 by harimau
An excellent post. I suggest this post be archived and brought out whenever someone from the minority community cries out discrimination.
Sridhar

re:#94 by ali87
Why don`t you just confine yourself to what you know viz Islam and not pass judgement on Hinduism, of which you are totally ignorant. I felt like laughing when you said hindu reciting scriptures know little other than Hanuman Chalisa.
Assimilation means mixing with the community you live in. It does not mean giving up your culture and religion. I live in US and i try to assimilate. I am surrounded by white americans. Still, i do not feel any reason to give up my culture and religion. Nobody has asked me to. However, when christmas comes or when there is thanksgiving, i do my part and be part of the crowd. America has given me everything that i could not have gotten in India. I am trying to assimilate in my own small way here.
The greatest problem with muslim community (especially North Indian muslims) in India is they are unable (i am not sure if they are also unwilling) to assimilate. I have talked about this often in my posts. This is a personal observation after having lived in Delhi for many years before migrating to US. As a Tamilian, I lived among Bengalis, Punjabis, Gujaratis etc but there were no muslims. They form 12% of population but they were conspicuous by their absence. Why? If one wanted to meet them in Delhi, one would have to go to Old Delhi. If you go there, you are entering a different world. It is as if time has stood still for them. They are still sending their children to madrassas, where they learn urdu, Qoran and little else. I am not against any of this but then in this day and age one has to have other skills too. Why are they not learning computer skills? Why not Hindi which is the language of the majority today? No one is asking them to give up learning urdu or practising Islam. They have a fundamental right to practice religion that is enshrined in the Constitution. This right is so sacred and fundamental that not even parliament can change this.
I have talked about assimilation in the past and brought to notice Dr Varshney`s study that showed that in areas where muslims and hindus interacted freely and forged an alliance, no riots ever happened. Muslims need to come out of their self-imposed isolation and join the mainstream. This is the best way to stop BJP`s fundamentalist agenda. BJP thrives on this isolationalism of muslim community.

I am a Tamilian but i am also a third generation Delhite (at least i was until i migrated). My grandfather was in Delhi during British times. When my dad got married, my mom knew little Hindi (she was from a small town in Tamil Nadu). Living among Punjabees, she not only picked up Hindi but also some punjabi and learnt all about their dishes, their culture and imparted to them her own culture and culinary knowlege. To me, that is assimilation. I have seen it happen with communities all over India. I have seen third generation sikhs attending Don bosco school in Madras speak fluent Tamil. I have seen Marwaris and Gujjus assimilate into the Tamil culture and prosper even as they hold on to their own language and culture. I have seen jains, sikhs assimilate effortlessly with hindus. I have seen (during my short stay in Bombay in the 80s) Parsees assimilate.
When people like you talk about hindus wanting you to give up your language and religion, i am convinced that most muslims suffer from this ``ghetto mentality``. The cure to this is ``assimilation``. Assimilation my way, as i have explained above.
You yourself admit that perhaps muslims prior to partion did not want to assimilate and that is why they strived for and got Pakistan. See, where this is leading to? Should i then presume that 50 years from now, muslims in India, who do not want to assimilate (as you have already admitted) would be asking for another Pak? BJP fundamentalist elements have come to this same conclusion independently and all the ideology they espouse is a baklash against this. Think over it.
Sridhar

re:#95 by ally
An interesting post.
Fanatacism needs only a small number of adherents. They rule by instilling fear. This is what happened to muslims in Gujarat. An issue from Godhra was used to create fear and divide communities all for votes.
The only solution to this is that Gujarati muslims should forge alliances with secular minded muslims, hindus, sikhs and members from other communities all over India. I know, this is easily said than done. So, for starters, they can start by forging alliance with local hindus, sikhs etc. Remember, all common folks are not politicians. All are not evil During sikh riots in Delhi (i was present in Delhi then), thousands of sikh lives were saved from congress goons by average hindus. The alliance and common bond sikhs had with hindus for centuries stood the test of time even during violent sepeatist movement in Punjab. This was not possible if sikhs had alienated themselves.
The way to defeat fundamentalism is by forming a formidable secular alliance in every state. For this to happen, muslims should shed their isolation.
sridhar

ali87 #119 I think we both agree that mullahs stink. The solution however is not to become one of them and ``teach the right stuff``. The problem is the institution (which has no place in the Quran, and like all priesthoods is ultimately nothing more than a self-serving bureacuracy of otherwise unemployable individuals - I stretch the last part a bit for dramatic affect).
The solution therefore is to get rid of concept of priesthood (i.e. mullahs) altogether. Not become one of them and try to reform them from within.
And I agree that the message of the Quran is not rocket science. It itself calls refers to itself as a book to make things simple. It itself makes it clear what it considers material vs. immaterial. And what is material (good character basically) is something that needs to be practiced, not preached and certainly not recited like a ``manter`` as muslims in south asia unfortunately do all too often. so: down with the mullahs!! :-)

re:#106 by stuka
Please read my post and you will know what i mean. My secular beliefs are unshakable and come out of a deep rooted conviction and deep study of scriptures.
The issue of assimilation is different. It is the best way to ensure safety and prosperity of a minority community. It is as much true for India as it is for US. I tell the same thing to Indians in US who constantly complain. I tell them: either assimilate or go back to India.
Pakistan became a reality because some muslims felt they could not assimilate with hindus. They thought they will be dominated, hinduised and what not. Am i right?
Logically then, the muslims who opted for India would be different. Even while practising their religion, we think they would be forging alliance with all communities (not just hindus). This unfortunately has not happened. BJP`s rise to power has a lot to do with this. I am afraid we are revisiting the issues that came up during partition 50 years ago.
Sridhar

Ref ahmadzai #97

[1. I don`t think any one could have been converted to Islam by force. A person so converted would always be resentful and continue with his original liking in hiding - example: Koreans under Japanes rule. OTOH, as I have suggested in a previous post, conversion was more likely due to (1) preachings of the saints and (2) rewards in terms of social escalation in the society due to Islam`s `perceived ` value of equality of all the people. ]

When you start denying history, then you cast doubt on otherwise legitimate arguments you have. All you need as proof of forced conversions is the existence of stones in Nuristan (in Afghanistan) with a nice curved depression wide enough to fit a neck. A couple of villagers would be asked to comvert to Islam and when they refused, their necks were placed on the stone and their heads were cut off. After this, there were ``voluntary`` conversions in every village in Nuristan. These stones exist to this day.

Even in Kerala, during the Moplah rebellion, there were hundreds of instances of forced conversions. The fact is that the first ritual after reciting the Kalima was the eating of beef. Since beef pollutes Hindus beyond redemption, these converts would never be admitted back into the Hindu fold. So, there goes your theory of ``resentment against the use of force``.

[4. I agree with you in that the Muslims of today should not harp on our glorious past, but mend several things in our lives to carve out a successful niche for ourselves. ]

Right on!

#127 by Ralph on January 29, 2003 7:18pm PT

Dhimmis by defintion mean protected people. Jews and othodox christians almost exclusively came to define Dhimmis ie Protected people. Protected from any prosecution from chirstians in rome etc. This is borne out by history. These people did well by all standards compared to the treatment they got anywere in europe.

you dont like the name you think that it is some kind of preverse term? What can I do about it?


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Reading ali87, a non Muslim can not help reaching the conclusion that either ali87 is not a Muslim or Islam is evil.

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you mean to say that you just reached this conclusion? was it not there before you even came to this board?

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#123 by Manjit on January 29, 2003 5:52pm PT
that is nothing to do with pakistan or forcing anyone to put up notices. It was just about providing a leagal framework to business to put up such notice so that muslims are aware what is being served. Nobody is forced to put this notice.

Those establishments which think that muslim trade is a key component of their business may put it up voluntarily.

The same is practiced in singapore. It is voluntary and reflects market pressure. It is better than a muslim asking constantly what wether the meat served is halal or not.

Only the govt ensuers that if a proper agency is there to certify and that it is illegal to put the notice and serve non halal meat.

This is also done in California and some other states albiet restricted to pakaged food and raw meat.

Only people like you can see the problem when there is none. Paksitan is a ghost that haunts you. and many others that is why even pakaged meat producers in India put Halal in arabic in a very discrete fashion which is almost not viisble in the cover because of the reaction of people like you.

Ref ally #95

[To those Pakistani People who think they came from somewhere else,
Get a grip, if u did, then ur `ancestors` have well been assimilated into the Indic people, as they probably came a good few hundred years ago, so somewhere in your blood, runs Hindu/Buddhist blood.]

Who was that dude who said that anyone Indian who is remotely fair must have Pakistani blood in him? Here is the answer to you.

[If ur still convinced you came from somewhere else, then p*ss off and leave Pakistan and go back to where ever you think you came from (if you can get a visa).

Stop living in a dream world, if you are Pakistani then be Pakistani, love the Dharti that keeps you, it is Pakistan where you came from and it is to Pakistani soil you will return to, not Turkish or Arabian.]

Sensible piece of advice!

[To all the Indians who think Muslims should not be in South Asia, wish on. A Muslim person of Indic origin is exactly that, he/she has every right to Bharat Ma (SA) as you do. It is only natural that Muslim people look to the Koran for guidance, it happens to be in Arabic, just as the Christians look to the Bible which happens to be in Latin. By doing this doesn`t meant they are anti Hindu or anti Indian.]

Agreed.

[We are pushing each other further and further away, i`m not one to bring anyone together, i dont really give a toss, but i am one for tolerance. A little bit of tolerance and compassion from everyone would help.]

Sensible and sensitive suggestion!

[Pakistan doesn`t need anymore `we are not really from here` kind of people, you can keep them in India or try and get them visas.]

How can we get some of your sense into Urstruly or Gulab Jamun?

re:#93 by GhalibZaman
If you have ever watched Bollywood movies, you would know that Indians regularly celebrate their muslim heritage. The commonly used language in these movies is still Urdu, which is passed off as hindi. Ghazals, Qawalis are all part of Indian culture (as much as they are of Pakistan`s culture). Pakistani singers like Ghulam Ali, Mehdi Hasan used to regularly visit India. They would not do so if there were no viewers. Urdu is one of 14 national languages recognised by the Indian constitution. So, i do not know what you are cribbing about.
Farsi, Arab are foreign languages, while urdu is home-grown. No sane indian will disown urdu. I have in the past argued that urdu is not just a muslim language as it was in wide usage by all communites before partition. People who like Arabic or farsi may learn it if they want to. BTW, how many muslims in India and Pak even know the meaning of all those Arabic verses in Qoran which they learn by rote memory since childhood.
GBS (George Bernard Shaw) was way off the mark when he predicted a bright future for Islam. We know that it has been taken over by zealots and fundamentalists. GBS perhaps lived in different times.
Sridhar

rsridhar #88
Re Persian or Turkish/Arab ethnic origins.

Just want to remind you, we have Indians with Italian, AngloSaxon, Middle Eastern Jewish,Persian/Zoroastrian, Iranian, Chinese/mongloid, Black African(some communities in Gujarat, for example, and there was this report on how a Sudanese?/Somalian warlord`s relatives were Keralites), Afghan(Hindu/Sikh/Muslim) roots, etc etc. Why discount Arab, Persian or Turkish roots then?

Reading ali87, a non Muslim can not help reaching the conclusion that either ali87 is not a Muslim or Islam is evil.

This man believes in turning non Muslims into dhimmis but isn`t satisfied with a democracy in which fundamental rights are assured.

If this is what Islam teaches, then it is the duty of every man to oppose Islam and expose it for what it is.

The National Geographic has finally admitted that it was a chinese-muslim navigator who arrived in America many many years before Columbus.

Reported in Toronto Star: Jan___2003

It should also be not forgotten that muslims were in Americas more than 500 years before Columbus.

This information is for muslims only. For many it might be new.
ENJOY!
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(From Chinese Govt. sources)


Remember Zheng He [Cheng Ho] !

Columbus sailed to America in St. Maria (eighty-five feet) in 1492. Zheng He sailed from China to many places throughout South Pacific, Indian Ocean, Taiwan, Persian Gulf and distant Africa in seven epic voyages from 1405 to 1433 ,some 80 years before Columbus`s voyages.

Zheng He flag ``treasure ship`` is four hundred feet long - much larger than Columbus`s.
In the drawing below, the two flagships are superimposed to give a clear idea of the relative size of these two ships.



For more about Cheng Ho, there is a full-length book by Louise Levathes, ``When China Ruled the Seas``, reprinted by Oxford Univ. Pr, 1996, ISBN 0-195-112075

Zheng He`s Tomb



Zheng He (1371-1435), or Cheng Ho, is arguably China`s most famous navigator. Starting from the beginning of the 15th Century, he traveled to the West seven times. For 28 years, he traveled more than 50,000km and visited over 30 countries, including Singapore. Zheng He died in the tenth year of the reign of the Ming emperor Xuande (1435) and was buried in the southern outskirts of Bull`s Head Hill (Niushou) in Nanjing.

In 1985, during the 580th anniversary of Zheng He`s voyage, his tomb was restored. The new tomb was built on the site of the original tomb in Nanjing and reconstructed according to the customs of Islamic teachings, as Zheng He was a MUSLIM.

At the entrance to the tomb is a Ming-style structure, which houses the memorial hall. Inside are paintings of the man himself and his navigation maps. To get to the tomb, there are newly laid stone platforms and steps. The stairway consists of 28 stone steps divided into four sections with each section having seven steps. This represents Zheng He`s seven journeys to the West. The Arabic words ``Allah (God) is great`` are inscribed on top of the tomb.

Zhenghe constructed many wooden ships, some of which are the largest in the history, in Nanjing. Three of the shipyards still exist today.


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