Once Upon A Time: When The World Spoke Arabic

m_souza,

it appears that as per Rig Veda (one of the holy books of hinduism) all creation originated from a giant called ``Purasa``. Rig Veda describes Purasa as:

``Thousand-headed is Purusa, thousand-eyed, thousand-footed. Having covered the earth on all sides, he stood above it the width of ten fingers.``

Rig Veda further explains creation as such:

``When they divided Purusa, how many ways did they apportion him? What was his mouth? What were his arms? What were his thighs, his feet declared to be?

His mouth was the Brahman [caste], his arms were the Rajanaya [Ksatriya caste], his thighs the Vaisya [caste]; from his feet the Sudra [caste] was born.``

in my opinion, hinduism is the worst thing that could happen to any lower caste, backward caste hindu. hindu theology treats a lower caste person as a second rate human being. this bias is present in Vedas, Gita and Manu`s laws. no wonder hindu society is always divided along the lines of caste.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

ali87 and other

Of course rituals are there in every religion.

Going to Haj is itself a ritual.
Just like idols are lifeless and have no meaning of their own but people who wish to focus their prayers kindof make the idols sacred. Similarly, places and cities are not sacred unless and until we wish to believe like this so as to have a focus for our prayers.
Staunchly believing that life is incomplete without going to Makkah-Medina once in your life time is itself a rigid belief.
Throwing stones at the devil (like the ones at Mina recently) is also a ritual, muslims might love it and find it religious activity but why should non-muslims would still think it is a superstitious ritual.
Covering your head, hijaab etc are also loved by muslims but others may not think so.
Then of course, sacrificing a bakara at the time of Eid-ul-azha is strictly a symbolic ritual. Why sacrifice a poor animal who can`t protest and speak? Why not sacrifice your own children?
Washing your hands(or arms) thrice..is also a ritual

I don`t know about many others but I am sure there are more. So you guys can`t form any stereotyped impressions abt other relgions that they are more superstitious and Islam is not.

Why should any eroticism in Alif Laila be the result of the expeditions` Persian or Indian origins? ``Set in the town of Samarqand, its tales are full of adventure and freedom. Its usually young and wise heroes and powerful women characters contradict the prevailing traditional notions and allow room for daring expeditions, which probably due to their Indian and Persian origins are full of eroticism.``

>This is true that Muslims have a very fixed stereotyped impression abt >Hinduism

Those fixed stereotypes are necessary to maintain some sense of worth. Imagine accepting that one threw away diamonds for stones :(

ali87
This is true that Muslims have a very fixed stereotyped impression abt Hinduism. That it is full of rituals, without any depth.
Not at all true.
I really don`t indulge into any rituals at all and I am sure most of the muslims indulge in more rituals than me. And yet my erligion won`t punish me.
But I being a very modern person who tries to rationally analyse and criticise things before blindly following it.
I find hinduism a very deep religion .....it offers so much without really strangulating its followers, without really telling its followers to hate the `non-believers`. Like Islam, Hinduism doesn`t say that it is the best religion in the world and everthing else is bullshit and everybody else is `kafir`.
This too much of judging others ...making fun of other religions(and their rituals)...too much of high sounding opinionatedness...too much arrogance....is something I reallly dislike abt Islam, although there are many good things in it.

what is the use of following one Allah or many, if you are taught to hate its creations if they are different from you. It is beyond my understanding how can such a religion be the best(accord to you)

ali87 #214

Don`t blow up children while you are in India ;)

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

#209 by jay on January 31, 2003 6:09am PT

I thought that was secular India. So if some thing is wrong in pakistans laws that means what??? They need to be fixed. anyway I dont see why you get so upset about those laws.

#210 by m_souza on January 31, 2003 6:09am PT

I wouldnt ask a new convert to go to keep going to the temple. So what is the thing about start new and disown what used to be against Islam. Islam doesnt say stop eating masla dosas. neither it says wear a arab dress. Only dress modestly.

you have been reading too much Naipaul


The bakaras that are sacrified are meant for consuption. The bood gore is not glorified. The food is shared with poor and relatives. That dear is the diffrence in rituals in Hinduism and Islam. Try to see what happens to the approx lakhs(according to a Deccan herald) of animails and birds like pegions, poultry, animals etc that are sacrificed in the yellamma festival or simialr festival? the blood is the key part of the sacrifice.


most people take criticism of certain issue like im saying that every thing is wrong with India.

To listen from me what is right with India you will have to give me a opportiunity to do so. Right now what is going on is Islam, muslim , pakistan bashing I respond to that with the facts that India or any other religon is in a similar state.

Sridhar take a break you are upset. get away from this board it is getting on your nerves. I neither hate hinduism nor hindus nor India. Im a muslim I accept Islam as it is. My contention is that Islam does not contdone rape, murder or any of the things that you accuse it of. Muslims are just as good as any one.

anway im off to India for a few weeks on a family emergnecy. most probably I will be busy for the next few weeks.

Peace

or in arabic

Salam

Aleph Null / Ali

Indian Americans did not riot on the streets and burn buses unlike the Muslim students from Jamia Millia Islamia in Dellhi. I was there that time. Why should some Hindu guys paan shop be burnt down because Salman Rushdie wrote a book? Muslims are free to not buy the book. They are free to express themselves to the publisher by writing letters or peaceful march, but not by rioting.

Same thing happened in Maharashtra after Jerry Falwell made his statement about Mohammed. Why should state buses be burnt in Maharashtra for comments an American made 10,000 miles away.

ali78 #183

Re blasphemy and the Indian Constitution. If I am not mistaken, it is illegal under the Indian Constitution to use the term `untouchable` to refer to a person or group. There are specific historical community names in Kerala for example, which if you use today, the police can register a case against you.

Similarly, I am always shocked at the use of the word `shudra` by mostly Pakistanis and perhaps some Indians on chowk because in all my life in India and among Indians(even the most caste conscious ones I can think of) I have NEVER never heard it used to refer to individuals or communities, even generically. This is because it is considered socially unacceptable among the educated Indians to use this term which has a derogatory connotation, something like `niggers`. For the purposes of discussion, the terms used to refer to generic communities are either their specific names , or generally as `forward` caste `backward` caste and Scheduled Castes/Dalits(even Scheduled Caste is becoming a bad word).

ali78, these things are a sign that Indians can voluntarily accept changes in centuries-old mindsets, a healthy sign.

#210 m_souza

Yes, its a very interesting point that pakistanis discuss strengths of islam only with respect to the arabs. As you have pointed out there was little or no arab impact on india (other than in Sindh). The main muslim invaders are Turkic (Uzbekistan) and also Pathan. These groups have no history of innovation or much scholarship at all. Their main virtue was militarism. Not surprising (``Stockholm Syndrome``?) Afghanistan and Pakistan exhibit exactly these ``virtues``. Outside of militarism and exagerated interest in past ``conquests`` these societies possess very lttle.

We all need to embrace our shared histories. There is a genuine shared culture in North India starting from around 1200-1300AD. Around this point muslim kings reasonably chose accommodation and rule over murder and destruction of the infidel (yes, there were still folks like Aurangzeb but kings are tyrants after all....).

Fortunately, in the South (as Jay has been explaining for Kerala) there was never the type of extreme and sustained violence associated with islam as in the north. Most hindu temples have survived. For the most part conversion did not come at thje point of a sword. Hence, muslim indians from the south have a much easier time seeing themselves as part of the local culture and so do hindus. It is another matter that fundamentalism of all types is on the rise....

brother Ali 87,

As a supporter of the islam in pakistan, and your comparison with hindu india, it may be useful to look at the changes in legal frame work in the last 50 years in both countries, having statarted from zero in terms of their own constitution.

Pakistan, hodood ordinance where raping needs evidence from 4 male witnesses, legalisation of honour killings ( ask pakistani friends about the honour killing in the office of Asma Jahangir in the centre of Lahore, ansk whether any one was charged), blasphemy laws..well do not forget about the sheria court to give the above rules religious sanctity.

Now the hindu india. Criminalisation of untouchability, reservations for schedule cats,...and the latest, rape victims should not be cross examined.. It is the majority hindus who supported the thousands of year old practice of hinduism to go throough legislation.

What you see in pakistan is a true islamic country in the making...and rejoice in it.

Where do somewhat recently converted muslims fit into the scheme of things? What is their history?
I think Islam orders you to totally disown it and make a new start. Otherwise Pakistanis should be feeling proud of thier ages old Hindu civilization and then feel prooud of thier recent Islamic culture(which is not really their own)

Pakistanis should read only that part of Islamic history that came to being in the subcontinent after Ghazis and Gauris invasions.

#19 by ahmadzai on January 27, 2003 10:46am PT

``True, they were your forefathers, but what`re you?
With hands clasped, you`re waiting for tomorrow)

Your essay calls for soul searching indeed. ``

Oh really!! Were Arabs reallllllly the forefathers of paksitanis? Yes indeed. You guys really need to do some soul searching. And does anyone have guts to speak the truth after dooing soul-searching?

Guys why can`t you put in simple words: ``Our forefathers were Hindus but my great great grandfather converted to Islam and we like Islam now. That`s it``

#25 by ali87 on January 27, 2003 4:20pm PT

``Nobody called themselves hindu or called themselves as following a Dharma. Just plain Rituals , Sacrifices, which kept the preistly class in power``

So you still continue to sacrifice billions of `bakras` on Bakr`Id..based on those holy rituals.

While Hindus have forgotton how to sacrifice animals(even if they occasionally did in some very ancient times) or harm them...this improvement definitely shows a progressive religion.

#28 by pmishra2 on January 27, 2003 8:16pm PT

``The genoice of the hindu/buddhist civilization is described in great details and with great pride in the writings of the muslim historians of the period. These range from the Chachnama (invasion of Sind) to Alberuni description of the invasions of Mahmud of Ghazni. These fully describe the systematic and massive slaughter of hindus and buddhists in the period 900-1200 in Northern India, particularly the areas that now comprise Afghamistan and Pakistan. They describe also the systematic despoiling of places of worship, the murder of tens of thousands as well the enslavement of even larger numbers``

Yes pmishra....Paksitnis hould read these books as this alone is their Islamic history. The Islamic civilization that Handani talks about is actually not paksitani. They are just forcing themselves to be one with Arabics so as to belong. So as to have some identity.

Ali87,
re: 191

Perhaps this email will answer your question. Please note that the writers are concerned about messages of violence against Middle Easterners, South Asians and Asians. See the difference?


Dear Friends:

We wanted to bring to your attention to an article that appeared in
Maxim magazine`s February 2003 edition that has outraged us. The
article entitled ``Maxim`s Kick-Ass Workout`` recommends to readers to
``Teach those pacifists a lesson about aggression while you build your
upper body.`` The article is accompanied by a series of video game-like
images of a white male ``beating the crap`` out of a Mahatma Gandhi
character. In light of the increased numbers of hate crimes against
people of Middle Eastern and South Asian descent, this article is
reprehensible and blatantly encourages hate crimes against South Asians and
``pacifists.``

The three page article describes several ways readers can get a good
workout. A way to exercise the leg muscles is to ``focus on his head and use
it as your personal trampoline. Mauling the guy`s face is a full butt and
thigh workout.`` To work the abdominals, readers are encouraged to practice
knee lifts. ``Knee lifts that make contact with a guy`s skull lead to
tighter stomach muscles, pain and unconsciousness. It`s win-win-win,
really.`` Each exercise depicts the Caucasian character brutally beating up
the Gandhi figure showing choking, knee kicks to the head, fore arm punches
on the face, all with blood splattering on impact.

The piece also insinuates that pacifists are weak and not men through
its ``Total Wimp Workout`` that says to ``wimps to go`` hide and tighten
your arms around your legs, like the time your mommy tried to take away
Malibu Ken.``

What is also worrisome about this magazine is that unlike other mens`
magazines, it is available to anyone under 18 and indeed many
impressionable young males do read Maxim. Thus, shaping young
heterosexual males that in order to be a man, you must beat the crap out of
somebody. It also carries numerous Asian American stereotypes
including, ``Grasshopper,`` ``Daniel-san,`` and statements like, ``Beginners
might want to actually set the dude on fire.`` Maxim magazine also has a
regular feature with a Japanese character named ``Hiroki`` who speaks in
broken English ``Picture look good. Shell too crunchy - metal hurt teeth!``

Maxim magazine is a very successful young men`s magazine that is
published by a British company owned by Felix Dennis. To express your
outrage about this article and other stereotypical images and statements
about Asian Americans in the magazine, write to Maxim at:

editors@maximmag.com or
Readers` Letters
Maxim
1040 6th Ave., 16th Floor
New York, NY 10018

Or better yet, express your outrage to Maxim`s advertisers.
Also, see www.tolerance.org - The Southern Poverty Law Center`s Teach
Tolerance web site also highlights the magazine article.

After hearing much blather and lying about ``peaceful`` islam, I provided just a little bit of evidence showing that at certain times muslims have been quite happy to use war and violence to effect conversion. The North-Western part of India during 1000-1200AD is certainly one such region.

Now we hear grumbling about hindus who want revenge !! What an astonishing idea ! There is obviously no connection between my college classmates Mushtaq or Taizoon and muslim generals of 1100AD. If I want revenge, should not also the dalits assault me every waking day?

What I want is the TRUTH (Satyamev Jayate!) about the past and the present. So that we can have a rational discussion without nonsensical talk of ``perfect`` religions or religions that eliminated all others ``peacefully``. As long as people cling to false self-images of culture and history, we certainly wont get anywhere.

Forced Conversions?
Muslims are so ambivalent and `confident` that they do not even properly welcome someone who embraces Islam....and then they wonder why the world has sped by them. This is now & that was then.

The `concern` of hindus (& other non-muslims) about muslims is really a rude awakening and is hence very much appreciated.
____________________________________________________________
Frustrations of a Muslim Convert
Committed to Islam,................... vexed by Muslims

A cautionary tale. How for one theologically motivated convert to the pure monotheism of Islam, certain fellow Muslims have turned the Straight Path into something of a rocky road.
by Michael Young.

I have been a Muslim for over two years now. Whilst I am deeply satisfied with Islam on an intellectual and theological level, much too often I have been far from happy in my experiences with fellow Muslims on a practical level. I have faced considerable difficulties in my attempts to develop as a Muslim. Although I have made the acquaintance of many Muslims through various mosques I have attended, this has been overwhelmingly only on a superficial level. I am close only to two Muslims in the city where I live. I met them coincidentally. One is a neighbor, the other a former colleague whom I now rarely see.

Lack of Induction
Although I have a good intellectual knowledge of the basic theology of Islam and Islamic history (largely self taught, by necessity not out of choice), two years after my conversion I am to some extent still struggling with the practical daily basics. According to a hadith,

``The search for knowledge is an obligation laid on every Muslim.``
(Ibn Majah, Baihaqi).

And a convert needs to search for more knowledge than a born Muslim who has had a lifetime of schooling in the faith. But in my personal experience, it seems that established Muslims make at best only a token effort to assist new Muslims in fulfilling their obligation.

People who have come into contact with evangelical Christians know the routine - you are bombarded with literature and cajoled to go to Bible study, church services, prayer meetings etc several times per week. There`s never a moment`s peace. They will take over your life if you let them. In stark contrast, those enquiring about Islam are likely to have a completely opposite experience. You are the one who will probably have to drive matters forward and investigate things for yourself. Not only, in my experience, are you likely to be left entirely to your own devices, it`s even hard to get useful information and practical help when you do want it. There generally tends to be little organized to either attract converts or teach them systematically about Islam. Moreover, most Muslims know little about Christianity and so are unable to relate to a practicing Christian`s starting point. And while there are now Muslim web sites dealing with this topic, their tone is often belligerent, arrogant or condescending and therefore off-putting and counterproductive.

To my profound disappointment, as far as my Islamic education is concerned, I have been left to fend for myself. It would seem that no mosque I have visited has a systematic induction program for new converts. The mosques in my area are all dominated by south Asian immigrants, with a sprinkling of Africans on Fridays. They are not attuned to the needs of indigenous converts. In fairness, I seem to be the only white person (i.e. convert) at the mosques I attend, so they may not perceive a need. But nevertheless, I live in a major city with a significant Muslim population and many mosques. Surely there must be somewhere where a new Muslim adult can receive training in the practical daily basics. Surely the established Muslim community should know where to refer the convert even if they are not suitably geared up themselves at the local mosque.

The Catholic Church has a thorough practical and theological induction program not just available to but actually compulsory for people who wish to join it. The Anglican Church actively advertises its Alpha Course to attract and teach new converts. We Muslims seem to have nothing organized.

When it comes to lack of both meaningful social welcome and organized teaching of Islam for new Muslims, American convert, teacher and writer, Yahiha Emerick, hits the nail on the head in his article Ten Things Every Muslim Must Do. At number six on his list, he says:

If you see any new Muslims at your Masjid (mosque), then partially ``adopt`` them into your family. The convert experience is basically one of isolation and loneliness. You`d be surprised to know that most converts are outright ignored by the people in the Masjid. Beyond a few pleasantries and handshakes, they are usually never made to feel welcome or accepted. They are often cut off from their non-Muslim friends and relatives so they are doubly vulnerable. A new convert should be invited into various people`s home for dinner a minimum of six times a month. Get together with others and make sure you all put the new convert on your guest list for any sort of gathering.

If only

rsridhar #196
>One Mullah in a mosque in UK is said to have encouraged his followers to kill the kafirs

Bad boy. You didnt give the link so ali87 can join the mosque. Here is the link

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=YTHV1LV211BGKCRBAELCFEY?type=worldNews&storyID=2141041

Qutation from ali`s brother -

You can use chemical weapons to exterminate the non-believer. If you have cockroaches in your house would you spray them? Yes, with chemicals. If you would spray the cockroach, spray the Hindu.``

Alllllllllllllllllah Oooooooo Akbarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

Hindus, love these Muslims!

Ref ali87 #150

[I dont recall any presence of any overt police informant neither did any muslim there indicate that. ]

They are not there wearing a uniform.

There is a law in Singapore that says citizens and residents must inform the police of address changes within 10 days (did you know that?). You will periodically read about cases where persons are arrested for not reporting the change of address. Tell me how the police know if you have changed your residence and find out your current residence if you haven`t reported it to the police. The fact is that in every floor of every HDB block there is somebody whose job is to report the arrival of new residents. The police check this against the address changes as reported by people who moved and if there is somebody who has not reported his address change, he is picked up. This is the same way the police solve crimes of robbery. If there is abnormally heavy traffic to some apartment and people are seen coming in/going out with TVs, stereos, etc., it is reported to the police and the police raid the place. You should talk to the locals to find out exactly what happens in Singapore.

[Singapore was apart of Malaysia.]

Nope. Always separately ruled by the British.

[Chinise like Indians are pretty recent migrants and were expected to be repartiated back to their native lands as late as the first half of the 20th century.]

Again, no. Chinese have been coming into Malaya/Singapore for 200 years and Indians for about 150 years. Indians were imported as plantation laborers and Chinese came in to exploit the economic opportunity and they had the land bridge from South China. No chance of repatriating the 35% Chinese or 10% Indian population in Malaysia. The repatriates wouldn`t know where to go back to.

[Obviously malay people will have loyalty towards malaysia more than the chinise. If they are not allowed in the army i think it is a logical move. However they are not killed or burnt or pilloried from time to time.]

It is this `obvious loyalty towards Malaysia or Indonesia` that bothers the Singaporean leadership. Thus you really don`t find many Malays in leadership positions in the Singapore Armed Forces. Don`t justify that. People have to feel loyal to the country they are born in and which gives them their livelihood. How do you feel when some bigoted Indian accuses you of loyalty to Pakistan?

[They find practically no discrimination in any other aspect of life. I would say that they are getting a good bargain.]

Try talking to Malays. Most Malays in Singapore hold lower-level positions. Executive positions in the government and public companies are primarily with the Chinese (used to be with the Indians, who have been completely elbowed out by the government. Talk to some Indians about it.)

[you may be right about vaniyambadi election I have no knowledge about it.]

Search the archives of the `Hindu`.

[Jaffersherrif runs from the bangalore north constituency where nearly 40% electorate is muslim If he were to run from the bangalore south constituncey he most likely will lose despite his secualr credentials and broad experience.]

If so, at least the Congress Party gives him a ticket that he can win with as opposed to giving him South Bangalore.

[Regarding the sepreate representation it could be one of the way to solve the issue of taking care of the voice of muslims. It may work or not work. But first admitting the problem it self is a first step. Religous isssues are generally taken care of more or less. but the issue of culture and language is a key issue in human life. First admit the problem then explore the possible solutions.]

You know what has happened in Tamil Nadu. In order to split the vote along caste/religious lines, the DMK has made sure that it caters to Muslim votes. Today, as you walk down the streets of Chennai, you will find more Muslim doctors than you will find Brahmin doctors (almost non-existent) even though the population of Muslims is not sizeable in Tamil Nadu. The Oriental Stream of Studies offers BOTH Urdu and Arabic as languages in the high schools but there has been an on-going campaign against Hindi and Sanskrit, primarily because those languages were taught by Brahmin schoolteachers to Brahmin schoolchildren..... nobody else wanted to learn Sanskrit or Hindi, though Hindi is the so-called National Language. Come down to Chennai and I will show you mosques right across from temples whereas in the good old days, each community kept out of the other`s hair and kept the peace. If this situation arises in Bombay, you can be pretty sure that somebody would be at the receiving end of the stick.

You guys need to figure out how to participate, how to get your vote out, and how to elect those who will do something for you. Maybe the DMK went courting the Muslim vote rather than the other way around but the net result is that Muslims find that they are doing ok in Tamil Nadu. Not that I want them to be leather workers in Vaniyambadi for the next 10 generations but you guys need to get them off their haunches and going to school and college.

[for instance punjab has a population of 23 millon, manipur of 2.2 millon, karnataka of 55 millon, andhrapradesh of 74 millon west bengal of 78 millon, kerala of 32 million. they all have their own language culture taken care of by a state frame work.]

Brother Jay, does Kerala offer Urdu or Arabic in schools?

Right now, the Supreme Court has ruled that minority-run educational institutions cannot be controlled by the state. The case arose out of the 200-odd private engineering colleges in Tamil Nadu who were under the purview of the Department of Technical Education and who had to give up 50% of the seats to students allocated to them by the state. Even that control is now gone. So what prevents you from running everything from elementary schools to professional colleges? Heck, I have seen advertisements for a Telugu-minority engineering college in Tamil Nadu. (Considering that a large number of the so-called Tamils are Naidus/Reddys from Andhra, Gounders from Karnataka, Chettys (Shetty/Seth) of Northern provenance, one would think that True Tamilians are deserving of minority status in Tamil Nadu!) So where the heck is the enterpreneurial spirit of the Muslims? Why don`t they start the next 10 engineering and medical colleges in every state and admit only Muslims and create Muslim a middle class? Get off your butt and do something!

[the reason for lack of represnetation in govt jobs are
1) lack of education 2) lack of acess to jobs because of passive discrimination ie favouring one of our kind 3) lack of acess to jobs because of active discrimination ie refusing to take muslims at any cost. 4) lack of understanding in muslims on the value of education and need to forge alliances.]

Reasons 2 and 3 will take time to correct. In the meanwhile, why don`t Indian Muslims work on 1 and 4? Don`t you think that 1 and 4 will lead to removal of 3 and 4? If not, don`t you think Indian Muslims at least will be better armed to face the 21st century? Why keep looking at UP, MP and Bihar? Why is it that your role model isn`t the Muslims of Kerala or Tamil Nadu?

[Pakistans formation could be looked from the point of assimilation or from the point of people wanting to be incharge of their destiny. Same as how chattisghar is formed or lingiistic states were formed within India. Only it is totatly sepereate. I feel that if our leaders were more statesman like they could have had got some form of compromise to benifit of all. there might be pitfalls though one cant say much about such things for certain.]

That is all water under the bridge. Pakistan has gone its separate way and all Indians owe them great thanks for taking care of the Pathans, Afghans and other mullah-led loonies and keeping the vast majority of them away from India. Let them evolve as they please. It is time for Indians of all kinds not to dwell on what might have been and seriously think about what India can be in the future. That is President Abdul Kalam`s message and that ought to resonate in every Indian`s mind.

rsridhar # 193
I know two Muslim men in Lahore and one in Karachi who married Parsi girls. Parsis like it or not, when you live in the belly of the beast, your family will get dirty.

ali87 #191

{Revisiting the freedom of speech issue.. Some people see no contradictoin in this. Gandhi is insulted and Indians protest and the magazine responds with a apology.

However salman Rushdie has freedom of speech and protests of mulsims do not count. No opologies instead promise to keep the book in sale and put more numbers in the stands..

Cheer on .... }

Maxim`s should have an *ABSOLUTE RIGHT* to say and publish whatever they want about Gandhi, even if - especially if - it is false, malicious and hurtful to many peoples` sentiments. As a larger-than-life public figure whose deeds and opinions affected and continue to affect hundreds of millions of people, for good or ill, Gandhi`s reputation, whether while alive or posthumous, does not deserve any protection whatsoever. The clear interest of the public to discuss such a person`s outsize influence on their lives, in the freest possible manner, outweighs any other considerations.

This is the standard practice in civilized democracies in regard to politicians and other public figures. It is primarily in totalitarian, fascist and dictatorial states that criticising the Supreme Leader is verboten; where ridiculing Papa Stalin or satirising Great Helmsman Mao or calling Musharraf a Busharraf becomes a punishable offence.

The only power that opponents of Maxim`s should have to stop them or extract an apology is the power of the free market and of free speech itself. They can pull their advertising if any or get others to pull theirs, persuade bookstores and magazine distributors not to carry Maxim`s, organize signature campaigns, distribute leaflets, demonstrate peacefully outside Maxim`s offices, etc.

I also think Indians should stop being so uptight about these matters. People will say what they want - let them. Refute any factual inaccuracies if you think it`s important enough. Maxim`s is in any case a couple of steps above Hustler magazine - why take them so seriously?

---------------

Now as to Prophet Mohammed - as well as to Jesus Christ, Lord Krishna, Lord Rama ...

The same principle of free speech that applies to contemporary politicians, and to Nehru, Gandhi, Abraham Lincoln etc., should apply even more strongly to Mohammed, Christ, Krishna, Rama.

Larger-than-life quasi-mythological figures who still loom large today, millennia after they (supposedly) lived, and who continue to influence the thoughts, actions and lives of billions around the globe, should be regarded as the ultimate and most powerful politicians of all time. Consequently the discussion of their lives and outsize reputations should be as free as - or freer than - discussions of the private lives, antics and shenanigans of contemporary politicians. Satire, parody and vicious attacks should be especially protected even if they are without any literary merit whatsoever.

The treatment that Prophet Mohammed and islam have received so far pales beside the well-deserved pounding that Christ and Christianity have taken over last couple of centuries. All religious figures need to be subjected to similar treatment. Free discussion can never hurt the truth.

-----------------

`Blasphemy` is a tired mediaeval notion that should have no recognition whatsoever in secular society. Supposedly slandering a religion or a religious figure is at worst a religious `offence`. Let it be punished in the hereafter - for those who want to believe in a hereafter.

#196 by rsridhar on January 30, 2003 7:45pm PT
Hindu hater.. Barbaric

Rituals , benfits mainly to brahmins, Rituals abandoned, illogical

____--------------------

need I say more......

rsridhar # 193
I know two Muslim men in Lahore and one in Karachi who married Parsi girls. Parsis like it or not, when you live in the belly of the beast, your family will get dirty.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

re:#183 by ali87
It would be more effective if you replied objectively. While some in this forum may say bad things about one religion or the other, not all hold the same view. Having revealed yourself as a hindu-hater by your remarks, there is no way you can redeem yourself in future. This label is going to stick to you. This is bad, since you seem to live in India and are surrounded by hindus.
Do yu deny that, of late, increasingly, fundamentalism and hatred has taken over Islam. Mullahs in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Pak are all singing the same tune. One Mullah in a mosque in UK is said to have encouraged his followers to kill the kafirs. Such ideologies are being heard all over: from Sudan to Syria. How can anyone hold intelligent conversation with religious zealots who only want to kill? You, living in India, can still go to any number of places and feel safe as a muslim. I have seen no anti-muslim bias in TN or Kerala. Gujarat is an aberration. But, as a hindu, am i safe anywhere in Pakistan?
Instead of addressing these issues, you have just chosen to paint hinduism as barbaric just because some people in chowk are not saying things about Islam to your liking. I suggest you do some introspection. About your own religion. Togadias, Modis are politicians. No Shakaracharyas in India have ever advocated violence against any religion. When that happens, you can call hinduism barbaric.
Sridhar

re: #164 by ahmadzai
Forcible converts may resent conversion in their lifetime. But their descendents may not continue to do so. If they benefit out of the conversion in material and other means, they would strongly justify their religious beliefs. This strong justification also becomes a basis for hatred against other religons. It is no secret that most muslims in Pak and India are converts and were hindus at one time (or perhaps Buddhists). Do these muslims then have any understanding or sympathy for what was once their own parent religion. Pakis, in an effort to always prove their islamic credentials, go overboard in their hatred for hindus. To the extent that the very name hindu is derogatory in Pakistan.
Sridhar

re: #177 by no_more_a_slave
I am yet to hear of a Parsee voluntarily marrying a non-Parsee. If it is happening in Pak, it must be by forced upon them. Or else you are deluding yourself.
sridhar

Revisiting the freedom of speech issue.. Some people see no contradictoin in this. Gandhi is insulted and Indians protest and the magazine responds with a apology.

However salman Rushdie has freedom of speech and protests of mulsims do not count. No opologies instead promise to keep the book in sale and put more numbers in the stands..

Cheer on ....

http://www.rediff.com/us/2003/jan/31us.htm

Deriding Gandhi: Maxim issues apology

Jeet Thayil in New York | January 31, 2003 07:35 IST


Following a vociferous e-mail protest campaign from many thousands of people, Maxim magazine issued a carefully-worded apology for an article in its February issue that depicted Mahatma Gandhi being beaten, kicked and bloodied, in a fitness feature.

``We apologize if our cartoon depicting Mahatma Gandhi in the February 2003 issue of Maxim was interpreted as offensive,`` said editor-in-chief Keith Blanchard`s apology, which characterised the three-page feature and its 23 computer-generated color illustrations as a `cartoon`.

``An edgy sense of humour, laced with irony, has always been a central element of Maxim`s editorial,`` Blanchard`s note continued. ``For some people, this piece may have gone one step too far.``

``We at Maxim do, in fact, believe in Gandhi`s teachings of peace. In fact, we chose Gandhi as the subject of our workout cartoon specifically because he is the least likely target of aggression imaginable. No offense was intended to anyone,`` the apology said putting an interesting spin on why it chose Gandhi for the feature.

The apology appeared at a time when Blanchard was away on vacation.

Maxim`s New York office was bombarded with e-mail and phone protests, said a spokesman for the magazine adding more than 5,000 complaints arrived in the course of two days.

The apology, which will appear in the magazine`s May issue, was sent to the groups responsible for organising the protests, including the National Federation of Indian American Associations, India Cause and countless private citizens.

Mahendra Joshi of the India Cause said 19,116 people had logged into the website`s protest page. Around 7,000 people had gone on to lodge complaints with Maxim.

He said the magazine was clearly not expecting such a deluge of protests and had taken the only course possible.

#180 by tahmed32 on January 30, 2003 4:30pm PT

The qutba is acutally not replaced by dialoge. Instead dialoge takes place later on in the evening after maghrib. I too initially thougth that it should take place during the qutba. But later I understood that it may not be possible because of the of the timing and the need for people to first get the message first in the accepted form. Also many people may not be intrested in the dialoge having no need for clarifications also the nature of assembly does not make it ideal to ask difficult questions so the dialoge takes place in the evening when people have more time and there is a smaller group of intrested people.
some thing like a paper presentation I should say. When you presnet a paper in a seminar there is limited interaction. Ie the paper is presented that is the main task. The questioning is limited or absent. that part takes place in acedemic circles after the paper is published. Usually as a discussion on the paper or a aritcle crituqiing the paper or by presenting an alternative paper.

In Indian and pakistan due to high density of population and the relative neglect by people and even due to the lack of understandign of the need and process of dialoge may be it doesnot take place. However I did see this in a couple of masjids in india although not on a regular basis.

At times it is better if people explaning concepts are from ordianary walks of life ie working people, busines peopple Teachers, since they can ariticulate the Ideas in modern context as well as have a sufficiient understadign of modern life because they are not isolated from it like the professional mullahs(of course nothing prevents anyone from being a irrational tradtionalist)

which is why I say that if this affects us there is nothing stopping us from taking over the mantle of the the professional mullahs at least from time to time. The criteria is not very heavy I dont think that it even involves the level of effort that a professional post graduate diploma requires. Because our socities are established muslim socities where instituions have come up with the need for certification etc. It is good to have those instituions but we do not like them because they are having a negative effect so the frist step is to get involved and not leave it to some one else after all it is our religon not the mullahs.

ali87:

it is bad enough focussing on islam all the time. lets not bring hinduism into this.

#184 by pmishra2 on January 30, 2003 4:53pm PT

What is your point mishra?

1)you did not post those as the views of a pakistani colummist. Even when you did I pointed out that it did not matter there could be people in pakistan whose views may be of liking of RSS or something to the effect. Search it up if you are intrested.

2)``Mess of superstition`` is your term may be that is what you want me to call it. I had said that it is about Rituals.
Even Islam has rituals like the ritual abulutions. the rituals of salat. I said that there rituals in hinduism benifited the Bhramins. These had little logical value and also have not stood the test of time which have been abandoned like sati. Animal sacrifices etc.


(3) This is what I had said in my first post on singapore. So what have you seen proved?any thing dramatically diffrent from this?

``#99 by ali87 on January 29, 2003 12:23pm PT

Last I heard that Both Krishna cheif minister of Karnataka and Chandrababu Naidu cheif minister of Andhra Pradesh and many other politicians form various states that they wanted to emulate the progress of Singapore.

Singapore muslim citizens do not have to accept common civil code. Infact Singapore courts provide the leagal frame work for personal law as per the Sharia``


(4)Islam is perfect that is my belif. I have admitted in a few places that I do make mistakes if I realise I admit them (at least that is what I try, you may judge if Im right)



So Mishra looks like you have fallen in the trap that you set for me.

ali87 # 182

Like a typical Nazi, you are supremely ignorant. My religion burnt heretics like yours kills apostates but in 2003 nobody defends burning witches and heretics. You continue to kill and justifiy treating non Muslims as second class citizens on the basis of your shitty religion. That, amused Neanderthal, is not religion, it is a primitive cult to piss at.

Whatever Hindus believe, they gave traitors like you rights. Following Muhammad, they should have executed you. I can see it happening. Since you understand no other language, you will start getting the Islamic treatment. Don`t blame Narendra Modi. He is, after all, just like your Muhammad.

Dhimmis are coming after you, Neanderthals. There are some last bleats still left in you. Amuse yourself while you can.

ON JAZIA and ZAKAAT!

``Gulaa tO ghoont diyaa, ahl-e madressa ney tiraa
KahaaN sey aayay sadaa `` La ila ha Illilah``------ALLAMA Iqbal.

tr:Your voice has been choked by the madressa-types
How now can you utter `La ilaaha..........


Oh! what an opportunity to learn----even for us `illiterate` unglee-sized muslims. Non-Muslims most welcome!
From Nahjul-Balagha.

Taxation and judiciary during Ali`s Caliphate.
_________________________________________________________
Division of Public Service Departments:

He divided the state service into following sections:



1. Public Finance

2. Army

3. Central Secretariat,

4. Judiciary,

5. Provincial offices

Finance Department:The department of the Public Finance was divided into two sections:
a) Collection section and

b) Distribution section.
Collection Section was sub divided into three heads and only three kinds of taxes were allowed to be collected by Hazrath Ali:

i. Land Revenue: It was usually collected in coins of silver and gold or in bullion. Officers to collect this revenue were some times appointed by the center, but Hazrath had also authorised the governors to appoint such officers themselves.

ii. Zakath (poor rate) and Sadaquath (poor fund); it was usually collected in kind or in live-stock. Officers to collect this revenuc were always appointed directly by Hazrath and he took great care to appoint honest and pious persons on these posts and to keep a sharp look out on their activities and behaviour.



iii. Jaziyah: a tax from non-Muslims in lieu of Zakath etc. and in return for the security and amenities provided to them. Collection of no other kind of tax, from non Muslims, was allowed by him.



Land survey was carried on by him wherever necessary. Every tax-payer had the right to appeal and an appellate jurisdiction was brought into force. Officers for this court of appeal were directly appointed by Hazrath.

He was the first man to introduce the Budgetary system for collection of Revenues and for its Expenditure. Every province had to present its budget direct to him for approval. The incomes were divided into two heads; provincial and central. Zakath and Sadaquath were items of the Central Revenue, Land Revenue and Jaziya were Provincial Incomes.


The schedule of rate for Land Revenue was fixed by him as under:

1. 1st class (most fertile) land: 11/2 Dirham per Jareeb

2. 2nd class fertile land 1 Dirham per Jareeb

3. 3rd Grade land 1/2 Dirham per Jareeb

4. Vine yards, and Orchards
and date palm groves 10 Dirh. per Jareeb


(Note 1 Jareeb=2268 3/4 sq.yd.)


Sadaquath and Zakath were the taxes which only Muslims had to pay. It was a tax levied on personal income, landed property, hoarded bullion and currency and on live-stock, its rate was that which was fixed by tenets of the Muslim Law.

Jaziya was a personal tax, collected per head of a person irrespective of his income or property. But such persons were divided into classes. It was an annual tax. The division of classes was as under:



1st class: Very rich persons and land-lords 48 Dirhams per head

2nd class: Middle class people 42 Dirhams per head

3rd class: Businessmen 42 Dirhams per head

4th class: General public 12 Dirhams per head

There were positive orders that no Jaziya was to be collected from beggars, and persons falling in following categories.



1. Those who were above 50 years of age

2. Those who were below 20 years of age

3. All women-folks

4. All paralysed persons

5. All disabled persons

6. All blind persons

7. All mad persons



Income from the source of Zakath and Sadaquath was reserved for the folowing heads:



A. Administration of the Departments of Collection and Distribution.

B. Grants, Donations and aids to poor, have-nots, orphans, aged widows and disabled persons.

C. Honorarium to volunteers who fought for the state

D. Pensions to widows and orphans of soldiers and officers of the army.

E. To acquire and to set free slaves from the bondage of slavery.

F. Reparation of government loans

G. To help Hajis whenever and wherever they were found stranded.



Items C to F were for the first time introduced by Hazrath Ali and so far as F was concerned previously noking ever thought his kingdom to be morally obliged to pay back a loan taken from somebody.



Hazrath Ali was the first man who declared that a ruler’s share of income from the state was equal to that of any commoner.



Income from Jaziya was car-marked for the following items of expenditure:



i. Maintenance of army.

ii. Construction and maintenance of Forts

iii. Construction and maintenance of Roads and Bridges

iv. Well sinking

v. Construction of Sarais (Rest houses)



Land Revenue was the provincial income to be spent on maintenance of courts, offices, and other necessary items as per orders of the Center. Before I bring to an end the narration of his system of revenue collection I must mention a remark passed by him in this respect to one of his governors. He said “So far as collection of land revenue is concerned you must always keep in view the welfare of the tax-payer, which is of primary importance than the taxes themselves, and as actual taxable capacity of people rests on fertility of land therefore more attention should be paid to fertility of land and prosperity of the subjects than to the collection of revenues.


Distribution of Public wealth was a subject on which Hazrath Ali spent much time and thought and which in return caused him to lose many adherents and followers.


The first reform that Hazrath Ali (A.S) introduced was to reorganize the Treasury and the Accounts department. Dishonest officers were removed from the service. A system of accounting was introduced. Oosman-ibne-Haneef was appointed as the Chief Treasury Officer. The principle of equal distribution of public money was introduced. The system of weakly distribution was for the first time adopted. Every Thursday was the distribution day or pay day so that Muslims could spend their National Holiday of Friday happily. Every Thursday accounts were closed and every Saturday started with fresh books of accounts.



Impartiality and equity were the key-notes of his policy of distribution of wealth. At the Center (Koofa) he often supervised the distribution himself and after the work was over and accounts cleared he would say prayers in the Treasury and thank his Lord that he had performed his duty faithfully.



Imam Shoobee says that as a young boy once he passed the Treasury at the time when Hazrath Ali was supervising the distribution, he saw negro-slaves standing in line with the Arab Shaikhs and getting equal shares, and within a short time the heaps of silver and gold coins disappeard, the Treasury was cleared, Hazrath Ali said the prayers and left the office empty handed. That day he had given his share to an old woman who complained that her share was ot sufficing her (Kitab-e-Gharath).



Once one of his favourite and trusty companion, Oosman-ibne-Haneef, told him that by introduction of the principle of Equal Distribution of wealth and bringing important persons down to the level of commoners, by raising the status of Negroes, and Persians to that of Arabs, by allotting shares to slaves equal to their masters, by depriving the rich persons of their jagirs and by stopping special grants apportioned to them according to their status, he had done more harm to himself and his cause than good. Continuing he said “Look my Lord, these are the reasons why influential and rich Arabs are deserting you and are gathering around Moavia. Of what use these poor persons, disabled people, aged widows and Negro slaves are to you. How can they help and serve you?” He replied “I cannot allow rich and influential persons to exploit the society of this Muslim state and to run an inequitable and unjust system of distribution of wealth and opportunities. I cannot for a moment tolerate this. This is public wealth, it comes from the masses it must go back to them. The rich and powerful persons have not created any wealth, they have merely sucked it from the masses and after paying the taxes, etc. what is left to them is many times more than what they pay to the state and they are welcome to retain it. Had all this been private property I would have gladly distributed it in the same manner. So far as their desertion is concerned I am glad they have deserted me. So far as the usefulness or services of these disabled persons and have-nots is concerned, remember that I am not helping them to secure their services, I fully well know they are unable to serve me. I help them because they cannot help themselves and they are as much human-beings as you and I. May God help me to do my duty as He wishes me to do”. (Kitab-e-Gharath).



Army: Hazrath Ali was a born soldier and had started his Military career at the age of fourteen, when he acted as a bodyguard to the Holy prophet (A.S.). Thence onward he was the only Military talent on whom the Holy prophet (A.S.) would rely and all arrangments for organization of defences and maintenance of an army of volunteers or soldiers were totally entrusted to him by the Holy prophet (A.S.). It was his ability and valour which brought such success to Islam in its early stage against such enormous odds. Even Hazrath Omer was taking his advice on Military problems (Sirajul Mobeen, Almurtaza and Kitab-e-Gharath).



Time had not dimmed his valour or his ability to organize such an important section of the state. At the age of sixty in the battle-fields of Jamal, Siffeen and Nahrwan, he was as brave soldier, as good leader and as keen Marshal as he was in the prime of his life, in the battlefields of Bader, Ohad, Khundaq, Khaiber and Hunain.



During his short period of rulership of about four years he organized this department very carefully.



The first liability on the state exchequer was the army department. Every governor of the province besides being chief finance officer of the province was the commander of the army placed under him. When officers could not be found to look after the military as well as civil administration then the functions were divided.



Hazrath Ali did not tolerate mere mercenaries but did not let the services of volunteers go unpaid. He hated murder and blood-shed and desired his soldiers to be soldiers in the service of God and religion. His strict orders to the army were, “always keep fear of God in your mind, remember that you cannot afford to do without His Grace. Remember that Islam is a mission of peace and love. Keep the Holy prophet (A.S.) before you as a model of bravery, valour and piety. Do not kill anybody unless in self defence. Take care of your mounts and your arms, they are your best guards. Work hard while you are at it and then devote some time to rest and relaxation. Rest and relaxation are as much necessary for you as hard work. Do not let one overstep the time limit of the other. Do not pursue those who run away from an encounter and do not kill fleeing persons. Do not kill those who beg for life and mercy. Do not kill civilians. Do not outrage modesty of women. Do not harm old people and children. Do not accept any gifts from the civil population of any place. Do not billet your soldiers or officers in the houses of civilians. Do not forget to say your daily prayers. Fear God. Remember that death will inevitably come to every one of you some time or other, even if you are thousands of miles away from a battle-field; therefore be always ready to face death. “He did not appreciate heavily armed and clad soldiers. He liked lighter swords, lighter bows and arrows, lighter coat of arms and lighter chain of armours. He perferred to have an agile and a mobile army. I wish I had space at my disposal to translate parts from the books Algharath, Siraj-ul-Mobeen, Al-Murtaza and Kitab-e-Siffeen (as quoted by Ibne Abil Hadeed). They have discussed and narrated at some length his system of reorganizing the army, his principles of strategy and his tactics of war: How he divided the army into six units, beginning from van guard (Muquadamath-ul-Jaish) and ending it at the rear guards (Radah and Saqquah); how he arranged to cover every possibility of a retreat with the help of these units; how he sub-divided the cavalry into horse and camel units; and infantry into archers, swords’ men and ‘Mata’een’ (soldiers armed with short lances which they threw with precision, skill and force); how he made the van guard responsible for scouting, pioneering and performing duties of sappers and Miners; how he used to arrange the army in a battle-field; how he never suffered a defeat in his life; how bold he was; how he used to fight without protecting his body with armour or shield; how he never delivered more than one blow (mostly his one blow was sufficient to kill his opponent, if not he would give the opponent chance to get up and run away) and how nobody ever dared stand before him for his second blow. To him war was a pious duty to be performed only for the purpose of defence. He often declared “A Muslim’s life is a battlefield, where he is seldom required to defend his self or his cause and country at the point of sword, which is Jehad-e-Asghar (Holy war on a minor scale), however formidable be the forces he is to face, while in every day of his life he is to fight against evil desires, vicious cravings and inordinate wishes, which is Jehad-e-Akber (A holy war on a major scale), take care and do not suffer a defeat in this battle; remember it is life long struggle; a success here will honoured with martyrdom, even if one dies in his bed surrounded by his relatives”.



Judicature: The principle of keeping judicature independent of, and over and above the executive, administrative and military sections of the state was the main factor of the reforms introduced by him. He was very particular about this. So much so that historians narrate that he appeard before his Chief Justice (Quaz Sharaih) as a complainant and the Chief Justice wanted to give him a place of honour in the court and to treat him like a king or caliph. He reproached the judge for such a behaviour, saying that he was there as a plaintiff and not as a king or a caliph, and then he cheerfully accepted the decision of the court against him. The effect of upholding the prestige of the court of justice, and his adherance to the principles of equality and equity were so impressive that the person, against whom he had field the case and had lost it, ran after him kissed the hem of his garment and said “My Lord, teach me Islam, I am a Christian and I want to be converted”. “Why”, enquired Hazrath Ali… “Did any body forced you to do that?” “No My lord” he said, “But your behaviour of treating even a non-Muslim subject as your equal, the prestige you have granted to justice and fair play and your abstination from use of power and authority made me feel that Islam is a great religion. You are a ruler and a caliph, you could have easily ordered me to be killed and my property looted, and nobody dared ask reasons of your actions, but you took the case against me to the court and cheerfully accepted the decision against you; I have never heard of such a ruler before you. What is more the thing that you claimed as yours is actually yours and not mine, but I know the persons who could provide proof of this are out of Koofa, therefore, I boldly said that it was mine and not yours. That was a lie, and now I am ashamed to feel that I lied against such an honourable person. You have heard me. Will you not allow me to enter the fold of Islam”? Hazrath enquired, “Are you of your free-will entering our fold”? “Yes”, he replied “Under your regime I have nothing to lose by remaining in my religion and no worldly benefit to gain by embracing Islam and by confessing my guilt and sin”.



The code which he laid down for selection and enrolment of judges shows he took care of even minute requirements of the post and position, it says:



1. Only such persons should be selected who are well versed in Muslim Law and know enough of the Holy Book and traditions of the Holy prophet (A.S.) to decide according to the principles laid down therein, besides they must have knowledge of personal Law of other religions followed in their provinces





2. They must be men of some standing and status.



3. They must not lose temper or patience and treat litigants harshly and insultingly. The litigants must feel that their interests are well guarded and well looked after, and the doors of justice are always open for them.



4. If they feel that they have made a mistake they should not obstinately stick to it, but try to undo the injustice done by them.



5. They should be able to probe deeply into cases before them and to reach the truth.



6. They must be able to reach decisions quickly and must not unnecessarily prolong a case.



7. They must not accept recommendations and must not be influenced.



8. Their salaries should be so fixed that they are not tempted by bribes and gifts.



9. In audiences and levees of the governors they should be given scats of honour.



10. Greedy and avarious persons, and those who are open to flattery and cajolery should also be avoided.



11. The door of appeal to the public should not be closed. The caliph should always hear appeals against the decisions of the courts and should decide as per orders of God and the Holy prophet (A.S.).

@175 ali87

Still spreading your disinformation here? Please take a look at my posting #161. There a 100 more chronicles of the brutality of islamic invasions in North West India. This region (Afghanistan and Pakistan) has a handful of hindus or buddhists left today.

It`s kind of cute that you are running around accusing others of innaccuracy. Here is your track record so far:

(1) condemmed the views of a well known Pakistani columnist as
``typical RSS talk``

(2) Claimed Hinduism as a religion to be a mess of superstition

(3) Claimed muslims are completely free to follow their religion in Singapore, including their own personal law. This was proven to be a lie thru several postings !

(4) Proclaimed that ``Islam is perfect`` (and maybe you are too?)

So keep up the good work. This is a public forum so your slipperiness is in full display.

#182 by Ralph on January 30, 2003 4:30pm PT

Back from your breaky Ralphy. Feeling refreshed!!

Coming from you this is rich.. you who burned women on live and eat dead humuan meat (Barkha dutts programme) to gain tantric powers for thousnads of years. Sacrificed little children to (still happens) to ward of evil while bulding big buldings etc

You who could not consider women capable enough to give them rights to property. to education. Who systemicaly undermined your own people in the inhumuan caste system for thousands of years where even the shadow of a Dalit would cause him (and still causes in many palces in India) to be beaten mercilessly or killed. Where they cannont (and still cannot in many places) draw water from the village well but have to trudge miles to get their water. YOu who come from a religion where even now people have to get down from their bycicyles while passing Bhramin houses you are going to tell me educate the the pros and cons of Dhimmis

Great!!!

But go on Im not going to stop you. You amuse me...

#177 by no_more_a_slave on January 30, 2003 2:46pm PT
no more an abd you are complainign that the Zorastrians in Pakistan do not hate but love.

Prehaps the abds are loveable

:)

ali87 #173

You, my friend, are the biggest hypocrite and crypto fascist that I have met. If you represent Islam, I will happily give up any respect for Islam and openly call for its destruction and for locking up of Muslims in non Muslim countries.

You have no respect for the equal rights of non Muslims. You support a system that tells Muslims to turn non Muslims into dhimmis as soon as they gain power. If I am not wrong, dhimmis are second class citizens. Still you believe that non Muslims should keep quiet because this fascism is your religion.

I have not heard any Muslim leader of any standing rise and distance himself from this barbarism. This then is the real Islam. In that case Islam is not a religion but a dangerous cult being spread through subversion, violence, and lies. There is no peace, no brotherhood in your cult. Far from being perfect as you claim, it is a primitive mass of barbaric rituals fit for arabs and Neanderthals. It should be opposed because calling a spade a flower when someone is ready to hit you with it is to be blind.

When others who are taught to respect other religions say any thing good about Islam, Muslims paste those around as proof of Islamic goodness! You have no compunctions that Muslims rarely say anything good about other religions. How can you? You are a barbarian, and your religion is a barbaric cult. I will never say anthing good about your cult so long you cultists claim your religion promoting dhimmihood is a`perfect` religion needing no change. Islam, my friend, is neither a religion nor a deen. It is a perfectly evil primitive cult that kills all that does not submit to it. You have made it clear that civilization and Islam can not surive together. When I first read that, I dismissed it, but I now see it is true. There is no point in discussing anything about equality or rights with you.

ali87 #179 I am really glad to hear that there are mosques in the US where the khutba is a dialogue, not a monologue. Unfortunately, in Pakistan (as in India, as you indicate) this is not the case. Also, this is the first time I have heard of this in the US. I am all for a dialogue (and that is why I find chowk so interesting) and agree with you in that it is a good way to get one`s own thinking clarified. If what you say is true, then perhaps we are getting somewhere. But let us hope that we replace the monologue of the khutba with open discussions among equals (as all individuals are supposed to be), and of course on that day the monopoly of the mullah would be broken.
On your other point, i.e. the need to convey ideas, I am in agreement. And I have done so on chowk by emphasizing the substantive message of the Quran - i.e. peace towards all, honesty, kindness, seeking knowledge and learning - which is not voiced frequently enough in mosques (where khutbas often end up being stories of hazrat ibrahim and other prophets that everyone has heard a zillion times, or emphasis on rituals rather than on values). But I agree, there is a great need to emphasize this positive message particularly among muslims who too often think of their religion as being a set of rituals with no emphasis on positive values.
Thanks for your response, and I enjoyed reading it and learnt something from it (about the khutba being replaced by a dialogue in some mosques in the US).

#149 by tahmed32 on January 30, 2003 6:38am PT

As regrads to the other aspect of qutba ie lack of question answere kind of dialoge I felt that was an imporatnt part that is missing. A few years ago I asked one of the elders onthis point saying that I feel that im only being lectured with no facitilty to ask questions or explanaitons. I was asked to come on friday eveings an some thing I had missed for long at least in my masjid . Here a few people interacted with the Imam asking questions getting qualifications to issues and direcitives. It does not happen much in India usuall ocassionaly and in rare circumstances. Here In US this is a regular feature on friday evenings in my majsid. people who need get their questions answerd go those meetings or even the Imam comes up with answers after consultiing other people or books to questions asked to give a correct answer if he doenst have it at the instant.

#149 by tahmed32 on January 30, 2003 6:38am PT

Even in advanced technological or even at school level this is one way of dissemination of information. For instance people give lectures to colleauges on say the quaity system. Now this is neither complicated nor difficult to read up. Only it is easier if someone else says it. Aslo it brings in to foucs diffrent aspects of the issue as many more people put their brain to it than just you. By raising questions even simple ones the different aspects of the isssue and their establised answers as well as the inconsistencies are know to all and High lighted.

I have a friend who is a BTech and MTEch from IIT in electical and power electornics and holds nearly 15 patents in VLSI design when he wanted to do some phycial circuit design and trouble shooting as a hobby he went to a small neighbourhood TV and radio repair instittue the kind who teach in a garage basic skills to almost unemployed youth.

When I pointed out that he could easily pick up what he needs from a book or his old notes or from the internet (as he must have done that in his graduate course and post graduate course) rathere than go to a person who has only half baked knowlege he replied that the process of learning needs a structure of classroom and is easier and more pleasureable. He even toldme that it does not matter if the person is not too knowledgable compared to him. What is important that he teaches what is been structured by a teaching system also ``any one can teach me some thing new``

Though I know him for nearly 15 years at this point I found that the humility (which I earlier found of just social use) had a practical value in life and learning.

There are other aspects to the qutba. One is the collective nature of it. It brings people together that is a important function the feelign of kinship is important.

Same process happens in those innane meetings business hold for their employes or dealers in las vegas or elsewhere. similarly that is what americans do in their Presidnets State of Nation speeches. Seen logicaliy they have no practical purpose. Their prupose is indirect and works on the pyscological needs of people.


It also keeps the message of Islam constant ie having people adhere to commonly accepted views on a particular topic gives coherrence(you may say that it stifiles other views but that is a pitfall not the primary function so measures can be taken to avoid unhealthy shuttering away of Issues)

Im not sure if universaly held values are self propogating. That is why special self help groups work on the principle of giving the obvious solutions but it those groups people get to understand because we are part of the grop and bond together. Similar thing happens in industry you find signs about saftey often very simple being constantly hammered into people. Not that people dont know that the how saftey is important. In resturant business there is always a notice in the bathroom which says ``Wash hands frequently`` or ``Wash hands before handling food`` Im sure that every one knows this but havign it in every place where people are likely to need that it helps in keeping the hygine.

Dont you think that people in our coutnries dont know the value of hygine in resturant business. So why do we find that this simple value is not follwed in our lands and followed more here in western countries.

Similarly there is more to commonly held universaly held values than we may think. For instance presently we all accept the value of personal Hygine. but was this always so? In eurupe for ages people would not take bath for months. Kings would pride themselves from taking baths only once a year or even once a life time. The cannibals did not hold the value of not eating your own dear. Abulitons prescribed performed this funciton where ever Islam went. (Im not saying that muslims are the cleanest people) Hindus thus had thier rituals of cleanig feet before entering the home taking bath before pujas etc.
Without these rituals there would have been not many universally accepted values intodays time.

It is in this context that Islam and its practices should be seen. They were meant for all people for all times to come. They have preformed a reasonable enough function so far I feel.

Also there are all kinds of people that Islam reaches out to poor, rich, in cold countries in dessert if forests in cities in villages, educated Uneducated and head hunters, to skull keeper to sophisticated thinkers. It is a immense achivement that it is able to answer the needs of all these people and get them together thorough rituals which build Identity at the same time are of practical use and do not hamper logical thought much. I cant think of any other system that has stood the test of time.

True there are problems from time to time. there is a frame work to fix them too. Neither is Islam too rigid to adapt rather than be abandoned.

I know you feel otherwise when I was young I too felt that way after much expousre and thougth I feel that I have nothing to offer to better it. I dont see any other system which will stand the test of time.

pmishra2, ahmadzai
Despite all that, there are Zorastrians in Pakistan who do not hate Muslims. Parsi girls end up marrying Muslims men! That is how Islam is spread. Conquest and elimination by force first, discrimination afterwards, and one way marriages finally!

#158 by no_more_a_slave on January 30, 2003 10:11am PT
#159 by ali_1 on January 30, 2003 10:28am PT
#151 by Saminasha on January 30, 2003 6:38am PT


It is very unfortunate that what ali_1 points out is true. In almost every discussion people start to bash Islam or muslims. However they are not open to any critisizim on their religion.
Dont talk about what you dont know is what you are told. Fine by the same argument the other side also shut up.

Not that I want that to happnen. Where are the aritcles on criticizim of hinduism? Where are the discussion of the many contradictions of hinduism?

Even on academic articles there is usually nothing but plain jeering by the hindus here as well as the what we call moderate muslims or non practicing muslims.
If you want to point out inconsistencies there are many ways to do that without jeering.

But this is often lost on most such people.

#158 by no_more_a_slave on January 30, 2003 10:11am PT

If you belive in some thing then why the hypocricy of prasing some thing else?

One can praise some parts of others religion sure. Muslims dont deny that there may be some aspects of other religions which might be good even praiseworthy. But their stand is that their religon is more comprehensive.
There is no harm in prasing individuals for their contributions even if it is through their religious belifs.
If some thing else was good why not give up your belifs? I can understand the logic of respecting the other persons choice but to say it is equally good or better is nothing but hypocricy.

Various posters here are arguing if Muslims were converted by force or through idealism. Does it really matter? If the Muslim of today is a Muslim by choice, what right does a Hindu have to question whether the said Muslims` ancestors converted by force or not.

I am all for passing snide remarks as it is good entertainment and time pass. But it is absolute folly to actually start believing that there is one homogenous set of people who are defined by religion.

It is also pretty dumb to try and second guess some dude who happened to change HIS RELIGION AND HAS BEEN DEAD 400 YEARS.

#163 by arjun_m on January 30, 2003 11:06am PT

are you denying that sravarkar propunded the theroy said that the two people had nothign in common and cannot live together?

#161 by pmishra2 on January 30, 2003 11:05am PT

Clever mishrajee you did nothign of the sort you have been constantly saying here as well as in other places that Islam was spread by the force. You did not qualify that statement.
Could you point out to a post where you have done that?

#146 by jay on January 30, 2003 6:38am PT

We all know even most pakistains know pakistans situation. It may be bad but is it worse than bihar? though it is a bit different but not too diffrent.

Also you expound on all topics related to muslims and Islams but will you torelate similar scrutiny?

YOu not only expound but also pronounce judgement on Islam. You are saying that Islam is wrong. Sharia is wrong.

++++
There are times, brother ali, when the truth stares at your eyes, accept it that the legal frame work installed by Zia has widespread support in pakistan and they are in tuene with islam. Please, accept that if there were to be any contrdiction in any of the laws of pakistan, including legitimisation of honour killings, the sheria court would have struck it down. You have cited several instances of crimnality in india, what I have alwys pointed out is the legal frame work sanctioned by the sheria courts and one has to accept that none of them are in conflict with the book.
++++

Were I to say that you can restrict your comments to your religon as you told me what would you say?

How come you dont see the contradiction in your stand. I feel that you are guilty of all that you accuse of in pakistanis or muslims.

Think about it....

YOur arugment is to say the least silly. Since honour killings take place in pakistan and are legitimatised and thus are intune with the book..


how come tahmed , Saminasha etc dont comment on this? are you so moderate that you take no notice of this. Or you agree with this or you dont have the capability or see the utility of contering this.

#145 by arjun_m on January 30, 2003 6:37am PT

India will demonize the fundamentalist aspects of Islam when it suits its interests. India will try to paint Pakistan guilty by association at every opportunity it gets. That doesn`t make India anti-Islam....anti-Pakistan maybe but not anti-Islam.

But I dont think that you represnet India. Just yourselves or people with like views. Im pretty comfortable with the people I interact with in real life. even the RSS VHP types they state their views clearly and i can counter them. I even have had a couple of such people admit thier misunderstanding.

Lets talk about the people on this board. So lets see where is your Non-anti-Islam post.

pmishra2:

You wrote:

``You are now babbling about Gandhi and this or that or the other. What a joke !! The day when muslims recognize that militarism and violence has been one part of their tradition, ever since the time the prophet exterminated the Quraish Jews in Mecca, is the day when all of us will stand on the same level. Till then your equivocations and careful disinformation will only continue to amuse us. ``

It is a well-known fact that a person who resorts to attacking other`s religion, philosophy, people of admiration, etc. is always playing on a weak footing.

Kindly keep amused but please do not shed your over-active se*ual hormones on interactive boards if you cannot defend yourself through reasoning.

;-)

arjun_m #163

Actually a letter in TFT is pretty small potatoes. Our hero has actually made it to the OpEd pages of Dawn, rubbing shoulders with the likes of Edward Said, Omar Kureishi, Shahid Javed Burki, Roedad Khan, Eric Margolis, Gwynne Dyer, and sundry other luminiaries. See `A distorted picture` in the January 20th issue of Dawn:

http://www.dawn.com/2003/01/20/op.htm#3

#152 by shankar on January 30, 2003 6:38am PT
shankar I too admire them. but sad fact is they are almost extinct. Most likely becuase they are a colosed community. If they were in a big enough number people would be complaining that they act as they are previleged people.

I read that there was some religion in Egypt long back which removed all rituals etc and was fully rational. There is no trace of it now. People dont even remeber if there was one such religion.

The rituals are necessary for any religion to survive. The problem is if how much rituals and how much rationality. I belive that Islam has achived a prefect balance(you can hold other opinon) The rituals that are prescribed are important part of building peity as well as Indentity while being of practical use.

I think I will not bother to put my views on rituals in Hinduism.

ahmadzai #160, #164

First, you challenged me to provide proof that Islam was spread by the sword. You were full of belief that Islam spread only through peaceful means and various other fairy tales that you have been taught.

I have now provided only a small sample of the vigorous militarism and brutality with which Islam arrived in Iran and North-West India. There is a large and systematic literature that chronicles this violence.

Now, you have changed your tune. You are unable to defend your myth that ``islam was always peaceful``. You are now babbling about Gandhi and this or that or the other. What a joke !!

The day when muslims recognize that militarism and violence has been one part of their tradition, ever since the time the prophet exterminated the Quraish Jews in Mecca, is the day when all of us will stand on the same level. Till then your equivocations and careful disinformation will only continue to amuse us.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

re:#140 by GhalibZaman
You and your other muslim brothers from your benighted country are welcome to think whatever you want about the hindus in India. The truth is: we do not care. Indians are blazing a new trail. I see India developing rapidly and on the right path. Soon you would be left far behind in this race.
You need to know and learn about India because India matters to Pak? Your Army considers India an enemy. BJP, which is ruling the country is no friend of Pak either and is fast encircling your country with some strategic moves. Did you hear that Iran`s President was the Republic day guest? Do you think that was just fortuitous? Do you know that the only reliable neighbour you had is turning his back on you. Ask Afghans from Afgha