Once Upon A Time: When The World Spoke Arabic

#161 ahmadzai

You can choose to believe whatever fairy tales you like. There are some societies where Islam spread basically through peaceful means. These include Bangladesh, Malaysia and parts of Indonesia. And to no ones surprise, all of these countries include substantial non-muslim minorities.
These countries are also relatively free of the islamic hyper-extremism found in
Pakistan or Afganistan. Without violence and ethnic cleansing NO society can become almost 100% of a single religion of belief system in a short period of time.

But Islam arrived in Iran, Afghanistan and North India accompanied by conquest and violence. Suffering of the Zoraostrians, who endured extreme persecution and massacre at the hands of islamic invaders. A few fled to India but mostly this culture was systematically destroyed. You can read about the violence visited on the Zoraostrians in Iran by muslim conquerors at:

http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20030203&fname=Booksb&sid=1

``It also chronicles the terrible tale of their subsequent persecution by the seventh century Arab conquerors who demolished their temples, defiled their sacred fires, burnt their holy books, banished them to ghettos in the city outskirts, compelled them to wear clay coloured clothes with a distinctive white or yellow patch to signify their belief, imposed jiziya or non-believers tax on them, forbade them to engage in any skilled trade or profession, forced them to walk on foot and to build houses the roof of which a standing Muslim could reach with his hands; these houses also could not have the badgirs or cooling towers so critical to survival in the grueling heat of the desert. ``

As to the coming of muslim conquerors in North-West India, their brutality constitutes essentially a genocide for the entire culture of the region. There are literally 100s of passages in the histories of the period that describe the taking of loot and slaves, the tens of thousands of infidels captured, the systematic destruction of places of worship. From Alberuni and on, muslim historians describe the systematic murder of the ruling classes and the terrorization of the populace.

Today in North India almost not a single historic hindu or buddhist site survives. Certainly none in Pakistan and Afghanistan.
And this in a region that till 1200 was almost entirely hindu or buddhist in composition ! And yet they are some who would pretend that this was not at the point of a sword ! Truly, there are none so blind as those who will not see!!

Anyway, here are just a few quotes from historians describing the arrival of islam in India:

Alberuni writes (1000AD):

In the course of seventeen invasions, in the words of Alberuni the scholar brought by Mahmud to India,: ``Mahmud utterly ruined the prosperity of the country, and performed there wonderful exploits, by which the Hindus became like atoms of dust scattered in all directions, and like a tale of old in the mouth of the people. Their scattered remains cherish, of course, the most inveterate aversion towards all Muslims.`` Mahmud began by capturing King Jaipal in the Punjab, then invaded Multan in 1004. On conquering the district of Ghur, he forcibly converted the inhabitants to Islam. Mahmud accumulated vast amounts of plunder from the Hindu temples he desecrated, such as that of Kangra. ``Mathura, the holy city of Krishna, was the next victim. `In the middle of the city there was a temple larger and finer than the rest, which can neither be described nor painted`. The Sultan [Mahmud] was of the opinion that 200 years would have been required to build it. The idols included `five of red gold, each five yards high`, with eyes formed of priceless jewels. `The Sultan gave orders that all the temples should be burnt with naphtha and fire, and leveled with the ground. `Thus perished works of art which must have been among the noblest monuments of ancient India.`` [VA Smith 207] At the battle of Somnath, the site of another celebrated Hindu temple, 50000 were killed as Mahmud assuaged his lust for booty.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

# 163 by arjun_m

You wrote:

``But is Pakistan’s fundamental ideology anathema to such tolerance? A state that was formed out of respect for a minority, as Pakistan was, would be in fundamental contradiction if it failed to respect minorities within its own borders.``

My response:

Unfortunately, majority of Indians decided to emualte Pakistan in this arena only - hate minorities - bring down the mosque, disrespect the Golden Temple, burn Christians alive, etc.

I believe that Pakistanis were wrong in our treatment of the minorities. This is something that our founding leaders had never visioned. However, I am totally disappointed that mistreatment of the minorities would become very acceptable in the land known for a pecaful person like Gandhi, who had his followers in the remote warring northwestern province of Asian Sub-continent too.

pmishra2:

See here is the difference. I am urging you to challenge a terra incognita by listening to other`s viewpoint. You are sticking to the account of history, which to me in this age should be challenged.

If according to Al-Beruni, Mehmood converted Hindus to Islam by force then my argument is that these people would have resented this forceful conversion. Now, if Mehmoud Ghaznawi or his kingdom were to continue ruling this part of the world then there would have been a reason for the subjugated people to continue to practice Islam under fear. Since Mehmoud always returned to Afghanistan and he did not leave any kingdom behind to rule over the forcefully converted, the people could have returned to their original religion.

Secondly, since the Muslim rulers of India abhored Sufis preaching Islam in their areas of control that could lead to civil disturbances in a population the majority of which was non-Muslim, the Sufis had to preach Islam at the outskirts of their kingdom. This would explain why more people got converted to Islam in regions farther from the center of the kingdom.

In any case, when I read your comments to an Indian Muslims, `` either assimilate or migrate`` then I begin to think that perhaps Hindus now are preparing to take revenge for a crime that could have been committed long time ago but not to the extent that they claim.

re:#140 by GhalibZaman
You and your other muslim brothers from your benighted country are welcome to think whatever you want about the hindus in India. The truth is: we do not care. Indians are blazing a new trail. I see India developing rapidly and on the right path. Soon you would be left far behind in this race.
You need to know and learn about India because India matters to Pak? Your Army considers India an enemy. BJP, which is ruling the country is no friend of Pak either and is fast encircling your country with some strategic moves. Did you hear that Iran`s President was the Republic day guest? Do you think that was just fortuitous? Do you know that the only reliable neighbour you had is turning his back on you. Ask Afghans from Afghanistan what they think about you. They are also muslims. They think you guys stink big time. I do not have to tell you what the civilized world thinks about you. Your foreign minister made an A$$hole of himself during his recent visit here. Thousands of Pakis are being scrutinised in US by INS. Surely, this is not being done for fun. Pakistan, as a place that nourishes and trains terrorists, is a serious threat to world community. In its present form, Pakistan would soon be a pariah nation.

Did you hear what US ambassador to Pak had to say about Kashmir? YOu may not care about hindus and think whatever comes to your deluded, narcotic infested mind, but the world over, people think you guys are bad. You all need to smell the SH!T around you. Looks like too much cocaine has damaged your sense of smell.
When present is bad and future is bleak, all you guys can do is to cling to the past. How does it matter what Jawaharlal Nehru or GBS said about Islam. Is anyone arguing here if Islam is good or bad. We are talking about the adherents of islam who are fast turning out to be terrorist junkies.
Sridhar

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

ahmadzai #160, #164

First, you challenged me to provide proof that Islam was spread by the sword. You were full of belief that Islam spread only through peaceful means and various other fairy tales that you have been taught.

I have now provided only a small sample of the vigorous militarism and brutality with which Islam arrived in Iran and North-West India. There is a large and systematic literature that chronicles this violence.

Now, you have changed your tune. You are unable to defend your myth that ``islam was always peaceful``. You are now babbling about Gandhi and this or that or the other. What a joke !!

The day when muslims recognize that militarism and violence has been one part of their tradition, ever since the time the prophet exterminated the Quraish Jews in Mecca, is the day when all of us will stand on the same level. Till then your equivocations and careful disinformation will only continue to amuse us.

#152 by shankar on January 30, 2003 6:38am PT
shankar I too admire them. but sad fact is they are almost extinct. Most likely becuase they are a colosed community. If they were in a big enough number people would be complaining that they act as they are previleged people.

I read that there was some religion in Egypt long back which removed all rituals etc and was fully rational. There is no trace of it now. People dont even remeber if there was one such religion.

The rituals are necessary for any religion to survive. The problem is if how much rituals and how much rationality. I belive that Islam has achived a prefect balance(you can hold other opinon) The rituals that are prescribed are important part of building peity as well as Indentity while being of practical use.

I think I will not bother to put my views on rituals in Hinduism.

arjun_m #163

Actually a letter in TFT is pretty small potatoes. Our hero has actually made it to the OpEd pages of Dawn, rubbing shoulders with the likes of Edward Said, Omar Kureishi, Shahid Javed Burki, Roedad Khan, Eric Margolis, Gwynne Dyer, and sundry other luminiaries. See `A distorted picture` in the January 20th issue of Dawn:

http://www.dawn.com/2003/01/20/op.htm#3

pmishra2:

You wrote:

``You are now babbling about Gandhi and this or that or the other. What a joke !! The day when muslims recognize that militarism and violence has been one part of their tradition, ever since the time the prophet exterminated the Quraish Jews in Mecca, is the day when all of us will stand on the same level. Till then your equivocations and careful disinformation will only continue to amuse us. ``

It is a well-known fact that a person who resorts to attacking other`s religion, philosophy, people of admiration, etc. is always playing on a weak footing.

Kindly keep amused but please do not shed your over-active se*ual hormones on interactive boards if you cannot defend yourself through reasoning.

;-)

#146 by jay on January 30, 2003 6:38am PT

We all know even most pakistains know pakistans situation. It may be bad but is it worse than bihar? though it is a bit different but not too diffrent.

Also you expound on all topics related to muslims and Islams but will you torelate similar scrutiny?

YOu not only expound but also pronounce judgement on Islam. You are saying that Islam is wrong. Sharia is wrong.

++++
There are times, brother ali, when the truth stares at your eyes, accept it that the legal frame work installed by Zia has widespread support in pakistan and they are in tuene with islam. Please, accept that if there were to be any contrdiction in any of the laws of pakistan, including legitimisation of honour killings, the sheria court would have struck it down. You have cited several instances of crimnality in india, what I have alwys pointed out is the legal frame work sanctioned by the sheria courts and one has to accept that none of them are in conflict with the book.
++++

Were I to say that you can restrict your comments to your religon as you told me what would you say?

How come you dont see the contradiction in your stand. I feel that you are guilty of all that you accuse of in pakistanis or muslims.

Think about it....

YOur arugment is to say the least silly. Since honour killings take place in pakistan and are legitimatised and thus are intune with the book..


how come tahmed , Saminasha etc dont comment on this? are you so moderate that you take no notice of this. Or you agree with this or you dont have the capability or see the utility of contering this.

#145 by arjun_m on January 30, 2003 6:37am PT

India will demonize the fundamentalist aspects of Islam when it suits its interests. India will try to paint Pakistan guilty by association at every opportunity it gets. That doesn`t make India anti-Islam....anti-Pakistan maybe but not anti-Islam.

But I dont think that you represnet India. Just yourselves or people with like views. Im pretty comfortable with the people I interact with in real life. even the RSS VHP types they state their views clearly and i can counter them. I even have had a couple of such people admit thier misunderstanding.

Lets talk about the people on this board. So lets see where is your Non-anti-Islam post.

#161 by pmishra2 on January 30, 2003 11:05am PT

Clever mishrajee you did nothign of the sort you have been constantly saying here as well as in other places that Islam was spread by the force. You did not qualify that statement.
Could you point out to a post where you have done that?

#163 by arjun_m on January 30, 2003 11:06am PT

are you denying that sravarkar propunded the theroy said that the two people had nothign in common and cannot live together?

Various posters here are arguing if Muslims were converted by force or through idealism. Does it really matter? If the Muslim of today is a Muslim by choice, what right does a Hindu have to question whether the said Muslims` ancestors converted by force or not.

I am all for passing snide remarks as it is good entertainment and time pass. But it is absolute folly to actually start believing that there is one homogenous set of people who are defined by religion.

It is also pretty dumb to try and second guess some dude who happened to change HIS RELIGION AND HAS BEEN DEAD 400 YEARS.

#158 by no_more_a_slave on January 30, 2003 10:11am PT
#159 by ali_1 on January 30, 2003 10:28am PT
#151 by Saminasha on January 30, 2003 6:38am PT


It is very unfortunate that what ali_1 points out is true. In almost every discussion people start to bash Islam or muslims. However they are not open to any critisizim on their religion.
Dont talk about what you dont know is what you are told. Fine by the same argument the other side also shut up.

Not that I want that to happnen. Where are the aritcles on criticizim of hinduism? Where are the discussion of the many contradictions of hinduism?

Even on academic articles there is usually nothing but plain jeering by the hindus here as well as the what we call moderate muslims or non practicing muslims.
If you want to point out inconsistencies there are many ways to do that without jeering.

But this is often lost on most such people.

#158 by no_more_a_slave on January 30, 2003 10:11am PT

If you belive in some thing then why the hypocricy of prasing some thing else?

One can praise some parts of others religion sure. Muslims dont deny that there may be some aspects of other religions which might be good even praiseworthy. But their stand is that their religon is more comprehensive.
There is no harm in prasing individuals for their contributions even if it is through their religious belifs.
If some thing else was good why not give up your belifs? I can understand the logic of respecting the other persons choice but to say it is equally good or better is nothing but hypocricy.

pmishra2, ahmadzai
Despite all that, there are Zorastrians in Pakistan who do not hate Muslims. Parsi girls end up marrying Muslims men! That is how Islam is spread. Conquest and elimination by force first, discrimination afterwards, and one way marriages finally!