The Summer of ’69

re: tahmed

{The intellectual depths and emotional maturity (not to mention mental stability) of the countless rsaxenas and jays who have come and gone on chowk are truly impressive examples of the results of secular public school education in India. }

...rsaxena ki yaad aa rahi thi kya?...

...anyways, play on my playuh...

dost-mittar:
In fact, Pakistan has done reasonably well until college level education despite the proliferation of madrassah of late. India has definitely done well in professional science and technology institutions. In a heap of failures. education comes nowhere near the top of the failures. Before partition, education among Muslims was almost exclusive to elite group of feudals in current area of Pakistan.

Since most chowkies come from Karachi, Lahore, Rawalpindi/ Islamabad, many of the facts go unmentioned in debate. In most Panjabi cities outside cantonements, college vacinity is the best kept area in terms of cleanliness, nice lawns, punctuality, beautifully lined patches of flowers and trees, physical education departments/ sports teams etc. In small towns and cities, colleges is the only place of intellectual and cultural lifeline of the city. For example, in Jhang, both ladies and men government colleges are the best locations to visit and relax. The lawns, the pathways, the buildings and flowering beds are just out of that world. Several of the faculty members of these two colleges have Ph.D.s from abroad and have written books. The credit really goes to principles who adminster all activites related to colleges. One college, Government college Gojra has produced more hockey players for Pakistan than any place else. The college hockey team is always tough competitor at national level, yet Gojra is not really a famous or big town. Same can be said about colleges in Sialkot, Gujrat, Gujranwala, Lyallpur, Sheikhupura etc.

Elite in both Pakistan and India still prefer British accent and spelling over American. It is Zed over Zee all over subcontinent.

sadna:
;Indians were determined (correctly in my view) right at the start, to boot out the British]

The correct statement would be to boot out the domination of British. India kept British governor general, C-in-C longer than Pakistan. Pakistan at least once kicked out high commissioner titles for ambassadors following getting out of British Commonwealth, India never did. If British Commonwealth is considered beneficial, why not consider missionery schools in Pakistan beneficial too. BTW, I am not the product of missioery schools to have any nostalgia for them.

dost mittar #50 I believe in my post #48 I did point to the erroneous impression you had when you had written that ``This article shows how far India and Pakistan have moved in different directions since the partition. In India, Mems and memsahibs had practically disappeared from schools even by early sixties. There were two reasons. One, secular public schools had proliferated and outnumbered the missionary schools run by christians.``

I indicated in that post that, contrary to your assumption, secular public schools have in fact also proliferated in Pakistan. So I did read your post, and did correct your wrong impression on a very important issue. Hamidm#49 in fact also confirms this point, although I guess he sees the education provided in these schools to be not worth the fees paid. I respect hamidm`s opinion since I am sure he knows what he is talking about here, and extend my sympathizies to him and his parents on the money they wasted trying to educate him. (Just kidding hamidm).

you continue: ``Secondly, the convents were increasingly run by local nuns and mostly staffed by the lay staff, mostly non-christians. And even the christian teachers (mostly from Kerala) generally dressed in Indian costumes. ``
I did not address this point, so let me do it now: in fact local nuns ran some of the best convents in Pakistan too (e.g. the convent school at murree which was an expensive boarding school for girls had a fine desi headmistress for many years. As for wearing local costumes, I dont think that is important. What is important are the overall contributions made by these people.

dost-mittar #50

Its a guess, but perhaps what are called Pakistanis` `best` schools still follow British curriculum as is, whose schoolleaving exams are held by UK-based boards. I doubt this is the case with ANY Indian schools, even the so-called `Indian Cambridge` curriculums. Indians were determined (correctly in my view) right at the start, to boot out the British, lock and stock (even if not barrel).

dost-mittar

........ just for the record – what you have here are a bunch of old fogies reminiscing about the good old days in the sixties and seventies when missionary schools were the only game in town............things have changed a lot in the past twenty five years and local private (and public) schools are the norm.........hoity toity private schools with names like sadiq public, beacon house, roots, city school and froebbels charge thousands of rupees a month to educate the offspring of the moneyed class ..............they have replaced the catholic church in looting and plundering in the name of education.............the unwashed masses are catered to by hundreds of ``computerized`` and ``english medium`` schools in every gully kucha - these are staffed by ill-tempered housewives who teach classes between household chores and flirting with the principal-owner...........those who cannot afford even these ``schools`` end up in government schools or madrassas, with the latter being slightly better as they offer full employment as jihadis and a guaranteed place in heaven – the education standard is about the same ………

...........so, most missionary schools are now considered to be second tier..........

.........there one thing that i am sure is different from India, is that we have another very special class of really good schools...............these are the army public schools, cantt public schools and fauji foundation schools which cater to the offspring of the ruling class – the army .........they are subsidized by the kids who go to the madrassa .........

tahmed#48:
Nowhere in my post#40 had I claimed or suggested that the Indian public schools were better (some or downright rotten!). My second post suggested, in fact, that the quality of English learnt by teachers whose mothertongue is English might mean better English standards of students from Pakistani schools.
The moral of the story: Read before your react!

#45 by dost-mittar on June 6, 2003 10:41am PT

Actually this is a very valid point. It would be intersesting to make a comparision or pakistan with another fedual strong hold ie of Bihar. What would be Bihars fate if it had been an Independent(of course there have been some very good leaders from Bihar earlier, but the larger socitey is a different case.)

I feel that a larger than admitted portion of Pakistans problems can be traced to the feudalism which is still largely intact in Pakistan. Maybe the day this edifice is weakend considerably there will be substantial changes in Pakistan (this is not to deny the role religion plays).

The better english of pakistanis can be becuase of their being elite(mostly from fedual or military background) otherwise the pakistanis command of english is similar to those of punjabis in India.

dost-mittar #45 OK...cooled down :-)
Nevertheless, I dont think you are factually correct in thinking that India is further ahead in terms of the top end of public schools than Pakistan. While literacy rates are higher in many states in india than in pakistan, the Pakistan may well be further ahead of India in terms of the top end of public schools. The cadet colleges, for example while originally set up in the 1950`s have I think produced world class results in terms of well-rounded, enterprising people. At the primary and secondary level, the Beacon House (a purely private and domestic initiative I think) set of schools is outstanding and their teaching standards are in fact higher than even the better schools in the US.
The great job done by the english missionaries and even lay people (cadet college hasanabdal and petaro both benefitted a lot from ex-British army officers who stayed behind, for example) is generally appreciated in Pakistan, no doubt. For example, Father Byrne, referred to by hamidm, was an outstanding individual who dedicated his life to running a fine school. I remember him once complaining jokingly to my father about the meanness of the Bishop in paying him so little (Rs. 60 per month, which equalled the salary of a domestic servant at the time). But when he died, even the then President of Pakistan Ayub Khan (whose boys studied at his school as well) showed up at the funeral. We would be very petty people indeed if we were to not recognize the dedication with british missionaries and ex-army officers etc. contributed to the cause of education in Pakistan. By the late 1960`s nearly all of them had died away.
But dont be fooled by this appreciation of missionaries into thinking that Pakistanis have not been able to carry on this tradition. Private enterprise in the education field is in alive and well in Pakistan today. While this routine harping about madrassahs by indian posters on chowk may fool people into thinking otherwise, the fact is that there is much much more to the education system in pakistan than madrassahs.

tahmed:
Cool down, my friend. Why are you irked by a statement of facts, instead of sharing any counter information that you may have? I believe in exchange of information and learning from each other. Don`t you? Don`t tell me you have a complex.

Anyway, I never said India was better, just different in this particular aspect. And going by the chowk posters, I would suggest that the Pakistani chowksters have superior skills in the English language than the Indian chowksters. This is perhaps explained by the difference I was pointing out.
Hope this makes you feel better!

#32 by tahmed32 on June 5, 2003 9:45pm PT

Hey you forgot the Offal & Bakrid angle.

dost-mittar #40 I never doubted India`s superiority to Pakistan in every field. Hey, just look at the geniuses from India who routinely show up on chowk. The intellectual depths and emotional maturity (not to mention mental stability) of the countless rsaxenas and jays who have come and gone on chowk are truly impressive examples of the results of secular public school education in India.

I am also impressed by this great need that so many indian posters have to compare India with Pakistan all the time. If it wasnt for these constant reminders from Indian posters, I would start thinking that India is a slum-filled third world country rather than the city on the top of hill.

hamidm2 #37 so you are a product of st. mary`s i see.

hamidm2 #37 actually one fellow did lose his virginity in class 8, to some prostitute - or so he claimed the next school day to us, explaining the intense pleasure involved. as for those presentation convent school girls, i liked them so much i married one of them.

This article shows how far India and Pakistan have moved in different directions since the partition. In India, Mems and memsahibs had practically disappeared from schools even by early sixties. There were two reasons. One, secular public schools had proliferated and outnumbered the missionary schools run by christians. Secondly, the convents were increasingly run by local nuns and mostly staffed by the lay staff, mostly non-christians. And even the christian teachers (mostly from Kerala) generally dressed in Indian costumes. So, the boys had to do the ``learning`` elsewhere. Of course, there were/are teachers who have adopted skirt as a matter of choice.

nazar,

sorry, didn`t mean to berate your nostalgia ........ as you notice, i relented and didn`t have to dig too deep to come up with my own schoolboy tale...........you are right, that stuff stays with you for ever, and as time passes the memories grow fonder ...........

...... tahmed, thanks for trying to fill the jay void ......

zahnee awara grhdee.you are allowed carry on