The Summer of ’69

161 by dost-mittar on June 12, 2003 7:43am PT
but then you are talking about the Koran and quoting the hadis.. did you not notice that?
when you talk about the Koran you are not just refering to Koran I suspect You are referring to a range of systems ie Koran, Hadis, Sharia etc.

here your main worry I belive is in the laws of Islam ie Sharia. Now Sharia comes from the Koran and is not the Koran. Which is why till 1700AD(i think) the concept of validity Ijthiad was agreed upon. ie relationng what is in the koran to present day issues and problems. This hardly points to litrealism.
Then it was decided that there would be no more Ijthiad ie it was felt that world had come to a more or less stable postion and there cant be anymore reinterpration of the koran/ sharia as the world is not likely to change and all that was needed for muslims to deal with the world was already known.(a concept somewhat to similar to Francis Fukuyamas thesis of end of History a few years back). However it looks like the ulema was wrong things have indeed changed.
It is true that there is a big trend towards literalism among muslims who quote the koran in much the same way as its detractors do, usually to influence those who havent bothered to ponder upon the Koran much.
comparing Islam with christinaity,jews and hindus is essentially a non-starter.
when you see the scale of human endvaour and apply the teachings of Koran you will perhaps find that you come up with a handful of issues that you dont agree with. If you want to base your qualifications on Islam on this ration and compare it with chirstians, jews and Hindus you wont be doing justice to all concerned including yourself. But anyway It would be wise not to get into those as they can not be discussed without rancour and certainly this is not the place or method to do it. I would require a comparitve study of all the religons mentioned and should be done on a individual level and in some depth.

You too can be accused of literalism. Here article after article in this forum and post after post where many muslims take opposite positons on the debate about various aspects of Islam so where does your accusation of ``Muslims insist parrot-like that nothing in quran is irrelevant `` stand in that light. Or are you taking the liberty to decide who is muslim and who isnt?
In this very board itself many muslims have discussed how some Koranic verses are considered irrelevant in light of later verses in the Koran and of how one verse expains the other (ie not literal) or puts conditions on the other. So you can see how you yourself choose to ingore the evidence and take some Isolated statements literary.
There is no harm in muslims prasing the achivements of thousands of years ago all socities do that It is a problem when all they do is praise past achivements.
That Muslims recognise thier problems is visible in their statements in recent times is something you chose to ignore. Of course there is so far no action plan much less action on solving problems does not mean that they will not be solved. change never happens suddenly.

#163 by tahmed32 on June 12, 2003 9:29am PT

Let go of friend... I didnt think you will be so sensitive.

tahmed32:

In response to your concerns about all Indians being `scums` like the kind you have seen on Chowk -- no I don`t believe so. I don`t think anyone`s religion teaches them how to behave, or helps make their character -- anymore. Maybe in a different time this was true that a person`s religious beliefs made them the person they were -- I don`t think we can claim this any more.

Some people just love to be pests. What can you do? Other people, like myself don`t have too much to say about a specific issue so they stay silent. Does this mean that Chowk reflects the majority of Indians and Pakistanis? Perhaps. Perhaps the people who are quieter need to speak up. Perhaps there needs to be a greater representation of all sides and all opinions. Perhaps the same people who argue with each other on Chowk about silly issues and Hindus/Muslims would be the first to take arms.

But then there are all kinds of people right? Not all Hindus, not all Muslims, not all Christians, not all Malayalis (those who live in the middle-east will know this stereotype), not all Sikhs, not all hippies, not all alcoholics are alike - right?

Other than all of this stuff - on the issue about secular hindus here is what i think -- Hinduism according to me is a set of cultural beliefs, and no one can challenge me on that. As a Hindu I have the right to say this - but fanatics will make anything a `do or die` issue. Yes we have our share of insane people with hidden agendas on our side as well. Yes, there are Hindus who have in cold blood murdered other people just in the name or religion (or do we know what they murder them for?). Yes, like any other culture - Hindus have their share of bad customs, and prejudices.

Yes secretly each one of us believes that our culture, our religion, our identity, our intellect is in some way or another superior to that of the other persons. Will this change?

dost mittar #161 ``Jews, christians, hindus and others have gone on to ignore those aspects of their religions `` Not all jews and christians - There is a significant percentage of bible thumpers as percentage of the total population even in an advanced country like the US. The entire state of Isreal is based on the concept of the Promised Land (i.e. from the Torah which says that God promised Abraham the land of Eretz Yisrael - modern day Israel - in return for the prophet accepting doing God`s bidding). As for hindus, there is no single book like the Quran, so the entire issue is irrelevant.

I would be more sympathetic to this concept of the secular hindus etc. if I did not see for myself the narrow-mindedness that I have seen among too many hindu posters on chowk. I am convinced that the average pakistani (I dont care about muslims in general - there are too many of them for me to be concerned with) on chowk at least is definitely a more decent and open-minded individual than the scum you have in your community. And frankly I am disappointed that neither you nor Ajeet took ``friend`` to task for the filthy and lying accusations (I have post #159 below to him challenging him to back his accusations by cutting and pasting what I wrote and await his response) he made - but when I responded at his wave length (for reasons I already explained) - I immediately heard from you. Perhaps we have an unconscious ``cultural bias`` even among the most well meaning of Indian posters, n`ext pas??

Thauheen-e-Ahmek #159,
I am not a liar. Instead you are a disgrace-to-an-idiot. Otherwise you would have seen that whatever I have been doing is to help you.
I have only been bringing you to self realization. You yourself responded to my
``Tahmad`s flirting with RSaxena indicates that even old man in Pakistan try to keep learning fact of life by flirting with other boys. ``
by
``friend attacks me in the most vicious manner he could come up with: he had gone to great lengths to portray me as having a ``homosexual flirtation`` with this man

Your violent reaction to a simple remark indicates, and magnifies, your attempts to hide your inner tendencies. Otherwise you would have simply taken the remark as a ``joke`` similar to your ``jest`` with RSaxena.

Your tendencies have also been verified by ``chotta``, watchman in your area, who has been screwing you for years. Earlier he was doing it for your wife and mother but now he is quite sympathetic to your age and addiction and says that he will do it for free.

I am really a friend of your and want to slowly wean you away from these tendencies. Hence I have asked ``chotta`` to keep giving you your doses and if necessary get other young studs to satisfy your cravings.

ali87#160

Yes, Quran did provide for a contract for marriage which provided for a predetermined amount for the wife; like other elements of quran, it was an improved version of the jewish laws relating to women. But one can also quote verses from quran, as they have been quoted frequently enough on chowk, which are not that favourable to women. And according to a frequently quoted hadis, Prophet Mohammed visits Hell and finds that women far outnumber men there.

But the problem with Islam is not quran but to accept EVerythin in it as a literal Truth. Jews, christians, hindus and others have gone on to ignore those aspects of their religions or religious practices which are irrelevant today. Christians fought a reformation to get rid of their obscuranticism, made blasphemy irrelevant, accepted the emprical over the revealed scripture whenever scientific evidence pointed in that direction and went on to achieve unprecedented progress. Muslims insist parrot-like that nothing in quran is irrelevant and are therefore stuck in singing praises of their wonderful achievements a thousand years ago.

sadna

yet another lady opines on Islam

http://www.islamicity.com/articles/Articles.asp?ref=QN0304-1914

British Reporter who was captured by taliban later converted to Islam after her return(yes yes I know stocklhom syndrome.. )

..I wish I had this knowledge (and I`m still very much a novice) when I was captured by the Taliban because I would have asked them why they treated their own women so badly. The Quran makes it crystal clear that all Muslims, men and women are entirely equal in worth, spirituality and responsibility. Allah ordained equality and fairness for women in education and opportunity. Fair property law and divorce settlements were introduced for Muslim women 1400 years ago; maybe this is where Californian divorce lawyers got their inspiration from in recent years! The Quran could have been written yesterday for today...


If you wholy belive what someone else says to you here is an eye opener.

http://www.cambridgeclarion.org/ridley.html

DAILY EXPRESS
THE BEST AND MOST UP TO DATE COVERAGE

TUESDAY OCTOBER 9, 2001 35p

WORLD EXCLUSIVE: YVONNE RIDLEY`S FIRST INTERVIEW AFTER 10 DAYS IN THE HANDS OF THE EVIL AFGHAN REGIME
FREED FROM TALIBAN HELL
I lay terrified in my bed inside filthy, rat-infested prison cell
I went on hunger strike and fought with vicious guards
I risked death to keep secret diary for Express readers
FROM YVONNE RIDLEY
IN PESHAWAR, PAKISTAN

What she says about those headlines.

It seems Yvonne Ridley did not write these headlines, despite the use of the first person and despite the fact they appeared in her name. The following is what Yvonne Ridley herself said about the headlines in a BBC Radio 4 interview in ``The Choice`` produced by Liz Leonard broadcast on 27 October 2001.

BBC interviewer: in a way I`m not surprised uhm

Yvonne Ridley: no me neither

BBC interviewer: so you get back and in your paper under your name or at least probably the Daily Express rather than the Sunday Express, under your name from Yvonne Ridley in Peshawar er is this story I lay terrified in my bed inside a filthy rat-infested prison cell, risked death to keep a diary for Express readers, went on hunger strike and fought with vicious guards. Er where did that come from?

Yvonne Ridley: The imagination of er the headline writer because the copy bore no relation to the headlines.

BBC interviewer: They made it up?

Yvonne Ridley: Well someone did.

..........

Since we are trained not to question any thing the press says and the wonderfuly modern press you can see the mild comments for these lies.

However you dont need to take my word for anything. Looks like you have never interacted with muslim women in any great depth.

Take up my challenge and discover yourself if you were right or wrong.

She made her journey back to afghanistan with her daughter.

http://www.muslimuzbekistan.com/eng/ennews/2002/08/ennews27082002_2.html

she mentions in her interview..

* What are your views on women’s rights in Islam as compared to secular Western society?

- The first thing I scrutinized when I read the Qur’an was property and divorce laws. I was amazed. I thought it could have been written by a Hollywood divorce lawyer! In fact, that’s probably from where they got their inspiration. I was also pleased to see that women are equal with regards to education and spirituality, but the Qur’an does acknowledge we have the extra burdens of childbirth, breast-feeding and periods.

.....Moral of the story dont go to taliban to know about Islam go to the Koran.

friend: One more thing, my friend. You are a liar. If you wish to dispute this fact, please do so by cutting and pasting anything that I wrote in that exchange I had with rsaxena based on which you are trying to portray me as having ``homosexual flirtations``.

PS: I see you have written almost a dozen posts referring to me or directed to me. You will be pleased to learn that I diligently studied them (or at least did some high speed reading, and I did skip lines here and there) for any signs of intelligence. No luck.

sadna

The UK MP did not see any virgins here.. but you saw..

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/comment/0,10551,975536,00.html
Israel can halt this now

Oona King in Gaza
Thursday June 12, 2003
The Guardian

· Oona King is Labour MP for Bethnal Green and Bow


..and they wait for a Palestinian state. They are no different from us: deny them human rights and they will respond with unacceptable terrorist violence.

That`s what Jews did when they set up the Stern Gang and blew up the King David Hotel in the 1940s. Ninety-four people died. The leader of that terrorist group, on Britain`s ``most wanted`` list, went on to be the Israeli prime minister. Many Jews revere him, even while they abhor the terrorism that ruins their lives today. Israelis must be freed from terrorism - such as yesterday`s horrific attack in Jersualem. All terrorism, not least Palestinian terrorism, is abhorrent. But it is also predictable..

#154 by sadna on June 11, 2003 6:02pm PT

there you go again....

you worry about the gujrats., delhi, Bhiwandis, srilankas, Harayanas ie the one does not need 72 virgins to kill. it is shame full to kill with not even a virgin to justify your killer lust.

Look ma No virgins here... yet hindus convinced the dalits to kill (how wily not even a single virgin promised)

http://outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20030616&fname=Dalit+%28F%29&sid=1

``When they need us to kill the Muslims, they ask us to shout `Garv se kaho hum Hindu hain!` Once their dubious purpose is served, we are once again reminded that we are Dalits, the untouchables. Last month, five members of a Dalit family committed suicide at Rampir Tekra in Ahmedabad, compelled by starvation, but not a single saffron cap came to see their dead bodies. I will convert to Buddhism at the first opportunity.``
—Sanjay Parmar in Danilimda, Ahmedabad

``

#154 by sadna on June 11, 2003 6:02pm PT

Looks like you have a template of this ready to be used at any place any time.



...Millions have been killed for the sake of sex with 72 virgins, millions of women around the world have to cover themselves completely in black cloth so as not to be accused of obscene exposure, tens of thousands of women in one country were forced to leave their professions, their schools and colleges to protect `public morality` while members of their govt slept with prostitutes, many others live under threat of stoning to death while the members of their govt. booze and womanise in other countries, many donot have equal rights and often are not allowed to have legal identities independent of men.
...

here is the view of one among the millions who refutes your statement...

http://iviews.com/Articles/articles.asp?ref=NT0306-1996

Ms. Haque`s decision to cover herself, which she made in her freshman year, was nuanced and thoughtful.

``I noticed a big difference in the way guys talked,`` she said. ``They were afraid. I guess they had more respect. You walked down the street and you didn`t feel guys staring at you. You felt a lot more confident.`` Her parents were surprised but said it was her decision.


another says..

``The scarf draws the line,`` said Ms. Alhadi, the daughter of a Singaporean mother and Indonesian father. ``It`s already a shield. Without it everything comes to you and you have to fight it yourself.``

Not that there arent people who dont recognise the line or rod but however for the average man it does.

#154 by sadna on June 11, 2003 6:02pm PT

Say what let take up a challenge.

You cover yourself up(not necesserialy in burka, a chaddor, or even a muslim scarf will do) for a month and then see for yourselves if it makes any sense.

your repeating again and again same old arguments is not going to help. Ill stick to my stand. If you are honest give it a try!!

friend

Leaving aside everything else, its unhealthy for me personally to be among so many people who hold the world view that all of Hinduism is either murder or sexual orgy and for whom Hindu goddesses make the obscene abuse of Hindu women acceptable.

Millions have been killed for the sake of sex with 72 virgins, millions of women around the world have to cover themselves completely in black cloth so as not to be accused of obscene exposure, tens of thousands of women in one country were forced to leave their professions, their schools and colleges to protect `public morality` while members of their govt slept with prostitutes, many others live under threat of stoning to death while the members of their govt. booze and womanise in other countries, many donot have equal rights and often are not allowed to have legal identities independent of men.

But some people who belong to a perfect religion have no problem with all of that, but they have a problem with Parvati who is worshipped as mother of the universe, whom they insist is `filthy`.

The anger I feel is just not worth it. Whats the point of any discussion?

Aicha#152
Disgusted! Because I took Ahmed to task? That disappoints me. You were not disgusted with Ahmek`s glee when he was discussing his homosexual experiences, or when he was typing story of Chotta with my mother! You should have shown your disgust earlier to Ahmek or Ali. Would you have loved if I also cook a story about Ahmed, his mother and his daughter? But I am not like that old man and wont say that old man was once beaten by his own daughter for making a pass at her.

no not bored but DISGUSTED! So pls stop it!

Sadna#146,
Running away never solves anything. I don`t believe Dost is on anybody`s side. If you take my advise, continue your serious discussion with Dosts, sammers, saminas, nazars, firozs, harpreets and Anny of this site. There are plenty of them.

Other like urstruly, Tauheen, Ali and me can continue our mutual entertainment. You should not just scroll through the posts.