Stop Indian Atrocities in Kashmir

a) Ganguly batted well because he was democratically provoked. That is the greatness of democracy.

b) Never mind who we like or don`t like in India. For a few moments now let us keep this to Pakistan.

c) I am here to understand Pakistan. As far as I can make out, Pakistan does not like Shias of Northern Areas, Gilgit and Baltistan, the Balochis, the Sindhis, the Seraikis, the Mohajirs, the Hindus, the Buddhists, the Christians, the Jews, the Americans, the Afghans, the Iranians. They like the Chinese, but the Chinese don`t like them anymore either. They like the Saudis, but the Saudis don`t like them anymore either. North Koreans want hard cash. They like the Kashmiris, but the Kashmiris don`t like them anymore either, since they`ve suddenly seen what happened to the Kashmiris in POK and elsewhere, besides it is about water.

d) That, therefore, leaves us in India as potential friends. But then Pakistanis don`t want to admit that they like Indians.

So where does that leave Pakistan?

I am sick of hearing the bragging of Indos day-in and day-out about their ``economic progress``.

You may find an Indian doctor in any corner of the world but Indians have one of the lowest life expectancy and lowest rate of immunization. Its doctors-to-population ratio is among worst.

India is producing science/IT graduates but it has world’s highest number of illiterates in the world.

India is one of the leading exporters of pharmaceuticals but its population is the worst in the worlds as far as access to medicine is concerned.

India has highest number of people living below the poverty line.

Indian women give birth to most under-weight children in the world. Indian population is most malnourished in the world.

The list goes on and on...
(source: UNDP )

With so many economic and social problems keeping them occupied, how can they pay attention to the political issues like Kashmir?

Khane kheerey te ...

None of the pakis have to guts to answer all the questions in this article. Perhaps they known the answers and are scared of it.
I suspect the author too is affected deeply by probaganda in pak. Thats why he has titled `Indian attrocities` and goes about trying to find a solution for the problems in pak. At the end too, the ranking goes like Indian attrocity, Pak attrocity and all attrocity.

To wrap up my opinion, here is how I would answer the 10 questions raised by tayyab:

10. Yes, Kashmir is the only real issue between India and Pakistan. Take away the Kashmir problem and 90% of all differences between Indians and Pakistanis are resolved. But as long as the issue remains unaddressed, any long-term friendship between the two countries is going to be a rough ride, if not an impossible one... and South Asia will remain the most ``dangerous place on earth``.

9. A lot of crap history has been fed to both Indian and Pakistan peoples. But I am sure that peaceloving people (unlike some of those on this forum who believe in hard-nosed rigidity) are capable of discerning prejudices and misperceptions..

8. Pakistan should continue its present policy of encouraging wealthy donors to foot the bill for the Kashmir movement. As the snows in Himalayas melt, freedom fighters will resume their operations against Indian armed forces. Pakistan should carefully monitor the pulse of Kashmiri people. If they want to continue their struggle, there is no need to bend over backwards to accomodate India at all until a clear timetable for talks is announced. India is using pressure tactics, so should Pakistan.

As for emotional cost, I believe no cost is too high for the God-given right of freedom and self-determination that all nations except the Palestinians and Kashmiris enjoy. Great nations must be ready to pay any price for the right causes and Kashmir is one of them. ``Junoon Aur Ishq Se Milti Hai Azaadi``...

7. The path towards Kashmir is sustainable as long as public money is not being spent on the cause AND most importantly, Pakistan and Kashmiri people are on the same wavelength. If the Kashmiri people genuinely want peace and reconcilation with India, then Pakistan must honor their wishes. Otherwise, continue the damadam must qalandar !!!

6. Yes, Pakistan`s primary reason for maintaing a 500,000 strong army is Kashmir. With Kashmir resolved, Pakistan needs only 1/3rd or half this number for minimal defense, and occasional flood relief purposes.

5. Pakistan Army and the entire country speak with one voice on Kashmir. Nawaz Sharif, Benazir Bhutto, Zafrullah Jamali, Qazi Hussain and even Altaf Hussain have all spoken against Indian atrocities in Kashmir consistently during the last decade. Even the Pakistani streets resonate different shades of the same opinion on Kashmir.

And no, Pakistan is not fueling the conflict.. just abetting a freedom movement that has been raging for over 12 years.

4. I believe the Army wants an honorable solution that involves compromises on both sides. If Musharraf wanted to prolong the conflict, he would not have climbed down from his hardline stance (``Plebiscite-only``) at Agra in 2001. The only spoilers on Pakistan`s side could be the Mullahs. Other political parties (PML-Q, PPP, MQM) have favorable positions on the issue.

3. When will the insanity stop? On this, my guess is as good as anyone else`s. In my opinion, America will first push the Israeli-Palestinian solution in 2004/2005. After that, there is a strong possibility that strategic U.S. interests may motivate the Americans to broker a resolution through backchannel diplomacy.

The bad news for India is: Americans are here to stay. They are not going to pack up their bags and leave Afghanistan or Pakistan any time soon. The longer they stay, the harder it will be for India to prevent U.S. involvement in Kashmir.

1. In my opinion, 40% of Kashmiris will opt for independance, 45% will opt for Pakistan and 15% for staying in India.

Veeresh and other Ganguly Bashers:

1. There is a vaccine for `Foot & Mouth` Disease.
2. There is NO vaccine for `Foot in the Mouth` Disease.

PS. Sorry ... That was harsh ... but I am sure I will get more opportunities to stick it to you guys.

#69 by HisExcellency on March 7, 2003 2:47pm PT

Oh, so will you allow the Shias of Northern Areas, Gilgit and Baltistan, the Balochis, the Sindhis, the Seraikis, and the Mohajirs settle their grievances according to their wishes? If Pakistan is willing to do that, we will reciprocate too.

Did anyone in Pakistan ever tell you that the UN resolutions clearly specified that Pakistan had to vacate the areas occupied by the ``tribal raiders`` (a convenient euphemism for Paki Army regulars granted leave to form small bands and invade Kashmir) before a plebiscite could be held? Pakistan never fulfilled that condition, and in the intervening years has settled lakhs of Punjabis and Pathans in ``Azad`` Kashmir, completely altering the demographic character of that part of Kashmir. Did anyone tell you that India, on the other hand, through Article 370 granted special status to Kashmir under which no non-Kashmiri can acquire land in the state? Under these circumstances, would any sane man believe a fair plebiscite can be held? And you Pakis continue to delude yourselves and the world by constantly circulating the same old lies ad nauseam.

You can go on raising the Kashmir issue till the cows come home, but that isn`t going to change a thing on the ground. The Paki Army can go ga-ga over its nuclear weapons and the Hatfs, Ghauris and Ghaznavis, India doesn`t care two hoots about how benign the Paki Army would turn once the issue is solved, because for us, it has never really mattered. And coming to the 400 million population living under the poverty level, India’s burgeoning economy is perfectly capable of bringing down those levels drastically, and if the past few years are any indicators, those levels will go down further. It is Pakistan that should be worried about increasing unemployment and poverty, rising fundamentalism, the stranglehold of the military, and ultimately its very survival.

Here`s the problem, in a nutshell - Pakistan`s ruling elite has been throwing temper tantrums in the hope of ``solving`` the issue of Jammu & Kashmir on its own terms. It is issuing threats that unless it gets its way in Jammu & Kashmir, the world in general and India in particular will have to face the dire prospect of:
(1) confrontation with a Talibanized Pakistan and/or
(2) confrontation with a nuclear India.

Pakistan`s ruling elite is an incorrigible lot. It would rather acquire real estate in Jammu & Kashmir than bring home the stranded Pakistanis (aka ``Biharis``) who have had their lives on hold for the last 31 years
in UN-run refugee camps. Pakistan feigns lack of fund to put off the repatriation of the hapless ``Biharis`` even as it funnels funds for organizing terror in neighboring Afghanistan and Kashmir.

Pakistan`s ruling elite is not doing anyone any good by such brinkmanship. Pakistan does have nuclear weapons but it is sheer lunacy to threaten to use them unless the Jammu & Kashmir issue is settled on its terms - this is temper tantrums at its worst.

America, and much of the world, is concerned because Pakistan not only has nuclear weapons but rattles themn regularly in the hope of getting its way on Jammu & Kashmir. It has steadfastly refused, till now, to forswear
first use of nuclear weapons. The Pakistani Generals are either insane or are indulging in dangerous brinkmanship to ``resolve`` their claims on Jammu & Kashmir on their own terms. This (and not any imagined collusion of ``Jews, Hindus & Americans``) is what makes it such a dangerous place on earth.

Muslim Kashmiris have no reason to want the expulsion of the Pandit community any more than Muslim Sindhis had any reason in 1947 to want the expulsion of Hindu Sindhis.

Powerful outsiders (including Qaid-e-Millat Liaqat Ali Khan) engineered the expulsion of the Hindu Sindhis to promote their own agenda of creating a constituency in the nascent country.

And in 1971, while all Bengalis in East Pakistan were victimized, the Hindus were victimized disproportionately more. Pakistani army was trying to do a Sindh on East Pakistan by specially targeting the Hindus. In fact, it victimized Muslim Bengalis, it did so with the specious plea
that the Muslim Bengalis were not good Muslims!

Today, Pakistan`s ruling elite is doing a Sindh on Jammu and Kashmir. It is Pakistan that has engineered the expulsion of the Pandit community.
Muslim Kashmiris do not condone the expulsion any more than the Muslim Sindhis condoned the expulsion of their Hindu neighbors in 1947.

Pakistan`s ruling elite, for all its talk on self-determination, dares not risking a plebiscite in Pak occupied Kashmir (PoK) even after altering PoK`s demography with immigrants from Punjab and NWFP. And most Pakistanis aren`t even aware that a constitutional provision (Article 370) in India protects Jammu and Kashmir from such demographic invasion from the rest of India. Indians from other provinces of India, cannot, by law, acquire immovable property in Jammu & Kashmir.

The ``Bihari`` issue has been festering for the last 31 years. As far as I am concerned, there is a crying need to end their nightmare.

It is not India`s responsibility to bring justice to the Sindhis & the Mohajirs, the Shias and the Ismailis, the Ahmediyas & the Zikris in Pakistan. It is Pakistan`s responsibility. Charity begins at home. Pakistan needs to give a higher priority to doing the needful for them instead of incessasantly beating the drums to get its way on Jammu & Kashmir.

tahmed 52,

Take it easy on Mohen jo daro. read my post 45, learn what the pakistanis are being taught. It is kafirin jo daro, it is from dawn, factual article.

ONLY SOLUTION,

At last the indian govt has learned from history and the events in pakistan. Kashmir is only a symptom of deep rooted jihadic values of pakistan, enshrined and permeated in the fabiric of the society. Honour killings, hoodood ordinances, blasphemy laws etc are the domestic componenet of the values whi;le searching out and killing the non-innocents as tahmed would put it , is the external relations policy. There can be only containment of pakistan, as it is in the border with isreael.

All of the indian aircraft are being fitted with aerial refueling capacity, the tankers are coming in, the loger range missiles are ready, missile defence system is getting ready, airborne warning and attack guidamcxe is in the pipe line. At last the indians have realised that pakistan wants to be like saudi arabia.

The avenue trees, the arjun avenue trees are being cut down in lahore and replaced with date palms to look like saudi, and probvably indian bombers have to deliver the desolete landscape of saudi. Who said indians hate pakistanis, we are always ready to help to realise paki dreams.

yantric #70 It is indeed shameful that muslim invaders over the past several centuries destroyed many non-muslim places of worship. In doing so, they were violating the message of their own holy book, the Quran, which clearly calls for respecting other religions. This demonstrates the level of ignorance even of their own religion. As I have said many times on chowk, by taking ``revenge`` as they see it by destroying mosques in modern India, hindu extremists are demonstrating a similar ignorance of their religion today. God does not need mosques or temples anyway. Man needs them to overcome his insecurities and fears. All you are accomplishing is destroying your own heritage.
It is the loss of future generations, regardless of whether they are Indian, Pakistani or any other nation, that small-minded and ``jahil`` men (hindu and muslim) destroy such treasures from the past. I regret even the pulling down of British monuments in Pakistan after the British left. Those monuments were part of our history, and now they are lost.

PS: On your concern about my being a muslim and therefore an Arab wannabe, I have heard this too often from new Indian posters on chowk to ignore it as just another childish bit of mudslinging by grown men on chowk. I am beginning to think that you people really believe that all Pakistanis would much rather be wearing an Arab headdress and speaking Arabic or something. Rest assured your elders have been misleading you. If you dont believe me, just take a look at the dress people wear on Pakistani streets and the second language they learn (English).
Next time your elders tell you this bad things about Pakistanis, very respectfully pull their ears and tell them to get wake up from their dream world. :-)

HisExecellency #69
`` Pakistan does not aspire for global power status``

Unfortunately, no one examining Pakistani affairs in the last 25 years believes this. Hamid Gul ring a bell? The jihadi and Pakistani Army barometer/definition of `just solution` to ANY ISSUE is unacceptable.

HisExcellency, aap bhi jihad back office ke front office nikaley. Bring on the jihadis, and jihadi generals, we will fight them. One thing we will not do is pay them off.

India will be satisfied to `settle` its part of Kashmir with Indian Kashmiris and their aspirations in mind.

$69 HisExcellency (or is it something else..)

So let me get this straight: the only problem Pakistan has with India is that it does not control Kashmir. As soon as this is fixed we can be friends!!


What a joke ! On top of this you trot out this nonsensical security council stuff. You seriously think any indian will discuss getting a security council seat for ``giving up`` a piece of their country? India will ultimately join the security council based on its economic and cultural strengths. This will happen within the next 10-15 years. It will not involve giving up anything.

You probably do not even understand how lunatic your proposal sounds. So lets try this. Why don`t you give me all your money and property! As soon as this is done, I will treat you like my best friend. I will nominate you for a high position. You will be my yaar!!

Sounds good? If you are ready, I am more than willing to help you. Looking forward to your reply (PS even 50% of all your property and money is OK provided it is in dollars!). I look forward to being your buddy !!

Ref HisExcellency Mouthpiece-at-Large #60

[As I said earlier, the source and the solution of this problem are in India. Either keep the Kashmiris happy in India, or let them separate. There is no half-way house here :-) ]

Pakistan has nothing to do with Kashmir. It is entirely India`s problem and the Kashmiris are waging a legitimate struggle for self-determination. The perfidious Hindus are suppressing the legitimate struggle of the Kashmiris.... yada, yada, yada,

Yaaaaawn!

Now go pop an artery.

Ref veeresh #55

[Salwar kameez is sexy, yes, but you ever noticed how difficult it is to take off and get started, both m/f?]

At last, something in favor of the sari and the dhoti.

It probably also explains the population boom in India.

India is the status quo power via-a-vis Pakistan. From the time Jinnah unleashed the tribal militias of Pathans on to the princely kingdom of Jammu & Kashmir to the time General Musharraf went behind the back of his civilian bosses to start the Kargil war, it is Pakistan that has always tried to alter the status quo to its advantage. If Pakistan could assure India that it would not try to alter the LOC, I am pretty sure India would be more than happy to forgo its claims on PoK (Pak occupied Kashmir).

There is a need for a change in the mindset of Pakistan`s ruling oligarchy of which the linchpin is the army. It had started off on the wrong foot when in 1947 it spread the word, ``Haske liya Pakistan, ladke lenege Hindustan.`` Flushed in its belief in the theory of ``martial races, ``Pakistan`s army officers spread the word that one Pakistani soldier is more than a match for ten ``Hindu`` soldiers. And to this day, there are those in Pakistan that articulate the dream that the Pakistani flag will one day fly atop the Red Fort in New Delhi. It is Pakistan`s irredentist dreams that had led it to unilaterally lay claim to Siachen.

Peace will not be far behind if and when Pakistan`s rulers stop trying to alter the status quo with force.

India is a status quo power. Regardless of its current public stance, India will gladly agree to giving up her claim on PoK and turning the LOC into a permanent international border. It is Pakistan that feels that it must acquire the entire Jammu & Kashmir to ``finish the unfinished business of partition.``

Pakistan`s ruling elite has a vested interest to paint India as the eternal enemy of Pakistan. It will continue to do so even if India were to aquiesce to the permanent exile of all residents of Jammu & Kashmir whose ethnicity, ideology or faith does not meet the approval of Pakistan`s ruling elite and even if India were to hand over the entire state of Jammu & Kashmir on a platter to Pakistan.

When Pakistan`s military swears by:

(1) the ``martial race theory``
(2) asserts that one Pakistani soldier can take care of ten ``Hindu`` soldiers or,
(3) promises compatriots that they will unfurl Pakistan`s flag at the Red Fort,

it does so, not because it believes in the bluster, but because that makes it easier for the military to usurp a disproportionate share of the country`s wealth for the Kakul kleptocrats.

In real life, Pakistan`s military has always been far tougher on its own citizens, most of them unarmed, than on armed soldiers of ``enemy`` countries. Thus, General Tikka Khan is far better known to the world as the Butcher of Bengal and as the Butcher of Balochistan than as the Knight in shining armor who will ride his big white horse to the Red Fort to unfurl Pakistan`s flag.

When Pakistan`s military breathes fire, it is to ``prove`` to Pakistani citizens that the military is indispensable to the nation`s welfare. But this is nothing but a fraud because the primary aim is to make sure that Pakistan`s army can continue steal a disproportinate share of the country`s wealth for itself.

I have no reason to believe that Pakistan`s ruling elite cares any more for justice in Jammu & Kashmir than it cares for justice for the residents in Pakistan itself or for justice to the ``Biharis`` left to rot in refugee camps for 3 decades.

Those that had preached, ``Haske liya Pakistan, ladke lenge Hindustan,`` on the morrow of independence, those that continue to preach, ``One Pakistani soldier is more than ten ``Hindu`` soldiers,`` will not change their tune or stance even if Jammu & Kashmir is handed over to them on a platter. They have a strong need to have India as an enemy country to justify the usurption of a disproportionate share of the nation`s wealth for themselves.

Pakistan`s military lobby was strong enough to force the break-away of the majority of Pakistanis in 1971 in order to preserve its own interest in the rest of the country. Today, it is just as determined to perpetuate conflict with India and for the very same reason. Jammu & Kashmir is merely the most convenient excuse at the moment. But, in its absence, it won`t take long for Pakistan`s military to find yet another excuse.

Pakistan`s ruling elite ought to ponder over the fact that here is a limit to what the people will tolerate. When the Kakul kleptocrats exhausted the patience of the long suffering ordinary citizens of Pakistan, the Tsunami of their wrath did not spare even the Ayub Khans and the Yahya Khans. It will not spare Pervez Musharraf either.