I am Not a Patriot

#51 by Mantolives on August 26, 2003 11:49am PT
Ferozk,

``If Pakistan was to become a secular state tommorow, true that our minorities will get a lot of theoretical rights which they should get no doubt, but the major beneficiaries would be majority muslims whose economic and social progress is once again held hostage by their faith.``

How? What empirical data do you have to support this assertion? How is the ``economical and social progress`` of the majority muslims is ``held hostage by their faith``? Shocked and chagrined! :))

#111, razz:

It never occurs to you that loyalty to a nation is integral with your ``bit.`` You probably never felt loyalty or patriotism.

As long as a person is doing his bit and satisfying the duties as a citizenship holder of that particular country (which encompasses quite a lot!! ) no one has the right to judge what that person attaches his primordial ties to, be it religion, nationality, culture, language or race.

cheers
raza

Nationalism Vs. Umma
Muhammad had introduced the concept of Umma for a special reason: It was a tool that he used to compel the Medinese Muslims to come to the help of the Meccan refugees. He never intended it to become an international phenomenon.

The ghost of Muslim Umma came to fore when Muslim rulers realized that they were going to lose their power and dominance over their occupied lands. Knowing that the Islam-related issues easily incite the Muslims, their leaders often used the perceived fidelity of Muslim brotherhood either to propel them to power or to prevent their fall from power. Apart from the Muslim leaders, Islamic scholars and preachers also have used, at the cost of national interests, the ghost of Muslim brotherhood to promote the interests of Islam. To make themselves effective in their propaganda, Muslim scholars and preachers relied on a statement of the Quran, which tells the faithful that the entire earth belongs to them and that they should strive hard to take over its full ownership from its infidel inhabitants.

Jemmah Islamiya of Indonesia has a grandiose plan of its own; it has a vision to turn northern Australia into a pan-Islamic state (Canberra Times, October 29, 2002).

In the matter of patriotic infidelity, the Indian Muslims do not seem to have competitors. Living in India, most of them sing the song of Pakistan. In matters in which India and Pakistan jockey for the first place, most of the Indian Muslims pray to God for making Pakistan the winner. I have seen many Indian Muslims beating their chests when India defeated Pakistan in the sport of Cricket; I have seen the same people distributing sweetmeats when Pakistan won over India.

Apart from dividing the entire humanity into Muslims and infidels, the doctrine of Muslim Brotherhood (Umma) has done nothing to salvage the Muslims from their sufferings. The Saudi Arabian government`s attitude towards the displaced Muslim Palestinians is a pertinent example. Despite the fact that many Palestinians took birth on the Saudi Arabian soil, its government refused to help them by granting them citizenship. Despite the fact that many Islamic governments have been begging the entire world to make investments in their countries, not too many rich Muslim countries have come forward to help them out. Despite the fact that many Muslims have been living in grinding poverty, their ``brothers in Islam`` hardly feel it to be their obligation to come to their rescue. Instead, rich Muslims prefer to invest their surplus funds in the Christian dominated West where they find more avenues not only to make more money but also to lead a life, filled with all sorts of thrills.

In view of what the Muslims had been planning for the entire world, it is no wonder that non-Muslims nations took to looking at them suspiciously. Other acts that some of the Muslims undertook recently to demonstrate their hatred of the non-Muslim nations boomeranged against themselves, for most of the non-Muslim nations of the world now feel insecured in the presence of the Muslims

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In Myanmar majority is buddhist that means not there is no muslims to terrorise ppl

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#104, khizer:

What a great way to enter a discussion!!!
Nobody knows what you consider ``Great!`` Mirza, Naqshbandi, razz, Stuka, tahmed32, Inquirer or Nazarhayatkhan????????????????????????????????????????
Ansari to note!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Re Stuka:

Check the Indian CAG`s report for the year 1999 which was later on discussed in your parliament at great length. Then you`d know where the figure of 2000 comes from.

and by the way Math skills have nothing to do with it.....were you standing behind your troops and counting and picking them up whenever they were shot or killed.?

cheers
raza

Great!

This is what I am saying every where.

Khizer

Inquirer sahab: your questions are valid. To answer them properly I`d need some time jo ke abhi mere paas hai nahin. Insha-Allah 25th September ke baad. :)

Re #96 SaminShah
``In Myanmar (Burma), forced conversions are frequent. In 1966, almost all Christians were forced to exit. ``
Burma? Buddhist Burma? I did not know it had become the Islamic Republic of Myanmar....

For minority representation in the Indian army one does not have to look beyond the Sikhs - 15% of the force and 2.5% of the Indian population. According to some figures Sikhs constitute as high as 20 percent of the army officer corps.
But then I am wasting my time here someone will probably say Sikhs are just Hindus with a beard and turban.

re: Stuka # 93

I can agree to a part of that statement. Pakistanis react to that statement on two levels; interally and externally. As far as the muslim ummah is concerned, Pakistanis would like to think that way, but within Pakistan itself, it is not so common as an idea and is generally rejected.

Stuka, the basic problem is that we, meaning Pakistan and Pakistanis, are still divided over the issue of interpretating Islam and there are various schools of thought canvassing their religious and political coins in the Pakistani polity. To suggest that a significant number of Pakistanis believe that Islam transcends all barriers is a pre-mature statement, because though we may consider Islam as being our religion, it does not suggest that we consider it to surpass and subsume all our problems. Granted there are people in Pakistan, who would dearly wish for this to happen, and though they might be vocal and loud, they are still a minority opinion. An average Pakistani realizes the destructive import of religion into Pakistani political life and its consequences. The problem is that non-religious secular segment of Pakistan has been a dismal failure in articulating a response to this religious voice and hence, the reason which suggests a lack of viable disagreement in Pakistan over this issue.

Hope this helps, as an answer.

Ciao

Razz:

Look like the Madarsa you studied at did not teach you math. Where did you get the number of 2000 casualties by the way? The Lashkar e Taiba website?

Anyway, feel free to live with your delusions. I could leave you with a parting thought..the number of Gujaratis in the Army is also much less compared to their proportion of the population. That does not mean the Army is prejudiced against Gujaratis.

But then again, complex thought processes do not seem to be your forte.

Cheers.

20 or so names of muslim casualties among a supposed list of 2000 martyrs hardly prove your point. Plus the issue remains......the proportion of muslims in your army is not reflective of the hindu/muslim proportion in your total population.

cheers
raza