One Day in The Life of a (legal) Alien

#60 amit

If you actually followed indian politics (as opposed to boring us with
your pompous feel good lectures), you would understand the following about the trifurcation of Jammu and Kashmir:

(1) When and (if ever) the jihad ends and normalcy returns, J&K will be trifurcated into three parts --- just like many other ``original`` indian states.

(2) Kashmir valley will be given autonomy rights as enshrined in Article 370 of the constitution and part of the legal agreement between Maharaja of J&K and India.

(3) Ladakh and Jammu will be new states and enjoy full economic and legal integration with India.

This is a reasonable view that respects the Kashmir valley viewpoint on ``azadi`` and unique status. However, there is no way we can get there until the jihad is over, the pandits return, normal commerce and interaction resumes between Kashmir valley and rest of the country.

Re:adnan_rafiq#44
Adnan, I think Pakistanis are moving towards the direction that you are suggesting. If you read editorials in leading newspapers, you can sense that Pakistanis are giving up on the jihadi option in Kashmir in favor of other strategies. Ironically, that may yield them more dividends. For example, if the APHC or similar outfits contest elections and form a state government in Kashmir, it suddenly changes the entire equation. It is one thing to fight against jihadis, it is quite another to oppose a democratic government that gets elected on a platform of separatism. In fact, it becomes eerily similar to Mujib`s position after the 1970 elections. The other interesting thing is that new ideologies are developing in Pakistan, such as Aitzaz Ahsan`s Indus based identity, which is a positive sign.
On the Indian perspective, I don`t believe that there is any apetite for a reversal of partition, as is evident from the reaction to my postings. Indians have moved away from that position but it has been replaced by a bitter hatred of anything Pakistani. I think that is a reaction to the jihadi policies in Kashmir and elsewhere, augmented by muscular right-wing politics in India. It is interesting to note that the right-wingers in India are actually calling for a trifurcation of Kashmir, which is strange given their supposed aversion to TNT.
In spite of all the nay sayers, I still hold out hope for the future because I simply do not believe that our hostility has any real basis. People of our respective territories never fought before 1947. We always shared a common culture and even today, India and Pakistan look remarkably similar. At a people level, there is actually an attraction for each other, as is evident when people from the two sides interact in third countries or when they visit the other side. Even on chowk we have seen firebrand online opponents like sadna and ylh having a very pleasant interaction after meeting face to face. We must always remind ourselves the dictum that there are never any permanent enemies or permanent friends, simply permanent interests. Is it in our interest to keep quarelling ?

PMishra2 Sahib,

``Congress passed the ``Immigration Regional Restriction Act`` in 1917 over the veto of President Woodrow Wilson. It basically drew a line around the areas in Asia from which Indians and Filipinos were immigrating and banned them. Of course there was a provision to allow Europeans born in this region to immigrate...``

What does this mean in terms of your argument? Make the connections.

My suggestion is that instead of posting these vague partisan overviews that you check out immigration legislation viz immigration from areas with which the US is in conflict with, or considered ``undesirable`` i.e. the Japanese, Germans, Haitians and also, what prevents undocumented workers from going thru the legalization process.

Will check in tom.

PMishra2 Sahib,

``Congress passed the ``Immigration Regional Restriction Act`` in 1917 over the veto of President Woodrow Wilson. It basically drew a line around the areas in Asia from which Indians and Filipinos were immigrating and banned them. Of course there was a provision to allow Europeans born in this region to immigrate...``

What does this mean in terms of your argument? Make the connections.

My suggestion is that instead of posting these vague partisan overviews that you check out immigration legislation viz immigration from areas with which the US is in conflict with, or considered ``undesirable`` i.e. the Japanese, Germans, Haitians and also, what prevents undocumented workers from going thru the legalization process.

Will check in tom.

Clearly as you have no command of the facts, you have now begun to generate personal insults. No surprises here, this is always the case with people pushing conspiracy theories and hidden agendas.

But here are some links to the facts. As I suggested, asian and latino immigration after the 1965 reforms are highighted:

http://www.itihaas.com/independent/contrib3.html

Congress passed the ``Immigration Regional Restriction Act`` in 1917 over the veto of President Woodrow Wilson. It basically drew a line around the areas in Asia from which Indians and Filipinos were immigrating and banned them. Of course there was a provision to allow Europeans born in this region to immigrate.

http://www.ins.usdoj.gov/graphics/aboutins/history/articles/oview.htm

Immigration remained relatively low following World War II, because the 1920s national origins system remained in place after Congress re-codified and combined all previous immigration and naturalization law into the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952.

In 1965 amendments to the 1952 immigration law, Congress replaced the national origins system with a preference system designed to reunited immigrant families and attract skilled immigrants to the United States. This change to national policy responded to changes in the sources of immigration since 1924. The majority of applicants for immigration visas now came from Asia and Central and South America rather than Europe. The preference system continued to limit the number of immigration visas available each year, however, and Congress still responded to refugees with special legislation, as it did for Indochinese refugees in the 1970s. Not until the Refugee Act of 1980 did the United States have a general policy governing the admission of refugees.

P Mishra 2

Utter and ahistoric rot. Go and study some immigration history before you embarrass yourself further...

Also, are you related in some cognitive way to P. Diddy? Would explain loads!

#53 saminasha

Your note is the same old collection of cliches and plain lies. You claim that the debate about immigration changed when non-europeans began to immigrate in large numbers. Really? Non-europeam immigration began on a mass scale in 1965 -- 40 Years ago! Before 9/11 I did not see any real resistance to immigration except in a few border districts in Texas or California. None at all.

There are literally 10s of millions of mexicans in the US. More that 100,000 indian H-1B employees entered the US in 1998-2000. And basically no one cares very much. The US is now 20% latino and no one cares very much about that either.

But on 9/11 radical muslims declared war on the US. What was even more amazing is that vast number of muslims seemed to be unable to condemn the attacks. In countries like Pakistan and Saudi Arabia figures like Osama are venerated and have been given cover by the local population. The same old ``just cause`` murderous nonsense that justifies violence against israeli children and goverment employees in J&K is used as justification. Stupid fairy tales such as the Jews are causing all the problems in the world are published even in newspapers like Dawn.

So the US has now insisted on aliens being registered. Ultimately ALL aliens will be registered. This is excellent news for all law abiding peoples. And naturally, people from nations that have supported terror and believe that their religions justfies violence are first in line. Seems entirely fair and reasonable to me.

Indians are in a specially tricky position because Pakistanis and some arabs can pass off as indians. They could then cquire indian papers and commit terrorist acts. So it will be a good thing when indians are also covered by this system.

P Mishra 2-

Are these the Indians of whom you fear stereotyping?

25, 2003

U.S. Crackdown Sets Off Unusual Rush to Canada

By SUSAN SACHS, New York Times

BURLINGTON, VT., Feb. 21 - Once Jalil Mirza decided to leave the
United States to avoid possible deportation, nothing happened quite
as he expected, not even goodbye.

As did hundreds of other Pakistanis fleeing a post-9/11
crackdown on illegal immigrants, Mr. Mirza quit his job, packed up
his possessions and headed north rather than face a
forced return to Pakistan.

After a 16-hour bus ride from Virginia with his wife and seven
children, he arrived at the Canadian border, hoping to take advantage
of Canada`s political asylum law.

But besieged Canadian officials told him to come back in two weeks.
And when he dragged their suitcases back to the American side, United
States immigration agents promptly arrested
him and his two teenage sons, leaving the rest of the family wailing
in despair in the icy cold.

The Mirzas are part of an unusual and chaotic exodus that has jammed
land crossings from the United States into Canada over the past two
weeks, overwhelming immigration officials and
refugee aid groups on both sides of the border.

It is an oddly reluctant migration toward a presumed safe haven by
people who say they do not really want to go but feel compelled to
for fear that they could be deported.

Prompted by rumors of dragnets and by new federal deadlines that
require male foreign visitors, principally those from Muslim and Arab
countries, to register with the government, families
that lived illegally but undisturbed in the United States for years
are now rushing to Canada. They get across the border only to be
bounced back into the hands and jails of the Immigration
and Naturalization Service.

Asylum applications to Canada have increased sharply since the
beginning of the year, according to aid workers and officials on both
sides of the border. Most of the applicants are
Pakistanis, who are required to register with the American
immigration service by March 21. Other nationality groups also face
various registration deadlines, but have not noticeably flooded
the border.

Many of the Pakistani asylum seekers said they decided to flee to
Canada because they knew that Canada was already home to a large and
growing population of Pakistani immigrants,
especially in Montreal and Toronto.

Even before the latest upswing this month and last month, Pakistanis
accounted for the largest number of asylum applications to Canada,
according to Citizenship and Immigration Canada.

Refugee aid workers also speculated that the registration requirement
hit Pakistani immigrants harder than other groups because more of
them lived illegally in the United States and had less
time to legalize their status through family ties or employment. A
result is that hundreds of would-be refugees, some from as far away
as Texas, are now camped out in Salvation Army
shelters, mosques and other lodgings along the border, waiting for
appointments to apply for asylum and struggling to find money to pay
the bond to get their male relatives out of
immigration detention.

Their common refrain, as was Mr. Mirza`s, is that they love America
and do not want to leave.

A former restaurant manager in Virginia with four young children born
in the United States, Mr. Mirza, 45, managed to scrape together the
$4,500 he needed to get himself and his older
sons out of jail on bond. His family stayed two weeks in a shelter in
Burlington, until today when they had an 8 a.m. appointment with
Canadian immigration officials.

But Mr. Mirza wanted to show, one last time, that his heart was in
the United States. ``I`m going to turn and salute the American flag,``
he said as he approached the border. ``I love America.``

Even that plan, though, went awry. In the most prosaic of farewells,
after filling out forms for eight hours he and his family were driven
straight to the Canadian post at St. Bernard Lacolle,
Quebec, early in the morning under a milky overcast sky. No one
bothered to stop him on the American side, where the nearest flag
hung limply on a pole in the distance.

``This is one of the most tragic events I`ve ever witnessed, seeing
this exodus of good, hard-working families,`` said Patrick Giantonio,
executive director of Vermont Refugee Assistance,
which had found the shelter for the Mirzas and dozens of other
Pakistani families trying to reach Canada.

``It`s a tragedy not just for their communities,`` Mr. Giantonio added,
``but for the American community.``

Similar stories are playing out all along the northern border.

At crossing points in British Columbia, some 70 people, most of them
Pakistanis, asked for asylum in January. In all of 2002, officials
said, only 36 Pakistanis made refugee claims.

At land crossings into Ontario, 871 people applied for asylum in
January, double the number just two months earlier. Last November, 5
percent of the asylum seekers were Pakistani. Last
month, 49 percent were Pakistani, according to Canadian immigration
officials in Toronto.

Freedom House, an immigrant aid group in Detroit, said that since the
beginning of the year it had registered 269 Muslim asylum seekers
trying to reach Canada in advance of their
registration deadlines. Seven out of 10 are Pakistanis, with the rest
Arabs. Normally, the group handles about 30 cases a month.

The surge of asylum seekers coincided with the start in December of a
new registration program for men over the age of 15 who were in the
United States on visitor, student or business
visas. Within days, it became clear to foreigners that anyone
registering who had overstayed a visa would be immediately put into
deportation proceedings.

Although the registration law, dating to 1996, applies to all foreign
visitors, the Department of Justice has put it into effect only for
men from 25 countries, all but one of them Arab or
Muslim nations. Of the 32,000 men who have registered so far at
immigration offices around the country, according to officials, more
than 3,000 face deportation.

The choices for illegal Muslim immigrants, then, were stark. If they
had been in the United States for more than one year, they no longer
had the right to apply for asylum here. So they
could have ignored the registration and risked deportation,
registered and faced deportation or gone back to Pakistan. Or they
could try for asylum in Canada by claiming they would face
political persecution if forced to return home.

They are not only overwhelming service agencies, but have also proved
an embarrassment for the Pakistani government, which has been
criticized at home for not demanding better treatment
for its expatriates in exchange for its cooperation with the United
States on fighting terrorism.

After the Pakistani foreign minister protested in Washington this
month against the registration requirement, the deadline for
Pakistanis was extended to March 21 from Feb. 21. The change
also affected men from Saudi Arabia, who faced the same deadline.

But the extension is unlikely to stem the tide of people to the
Canadian border, which has always registered shifts in immigration
policy on either side with surges of people seeking asylum
in Canada.

The widely held perception is that Canada treats applicants with more
leniency, although its refugee approval rate of 57 percent is not
much higher than that of the United States, which
approves 54 percent of asylum cases. Asylum seekers in the United
States are generally placed in detention while their claims are
assessed, however, while those waiting for a decision in
Canada are free to work.

Still, the latest tide of Muslim men and their families took
authorities on both sides by surprise.

Three weeks ago, Canadian border officials at the crossings from
northern New York and Vermont, said they did not have enough workers
to handle the numbers of people asking for
refugee status. They began giving applicants appointments for several
weeks later and sending them back to the American side of the border.

In the past when unable to process people on the spot, Canada asked
for assurances from the immigration service that those applicants
would not be arrested after returning to the United
States to wait for their interviews. But last month, Canadian
authorities did not bother.

``We realized it was useless because whether or not we got assurances,
we could not process these people,`` said Rene Mercier, a spokesman
for Citizenship and Immigration Canada.

The United States, in turn, placed dozens of people in deportation
proceedings even if they had documents showing an asylum appointment
with Canada. Others, caught on their way to the
border at counterterrorism checkpoints set up by the United States
Customs Service, were arrested on immigration violations.

The arrests split families and left many women and children to fend
for themselves at isolated border posts in some of the coldest
weather in years. At least 50 people remain in detention
along the border, unable to post bond.

The immigration service said its agents were simply following
procedure. ``Individuals who are illegally in the U.S. are processed
the same way we would process them if we encountered
them any other way,`` said Michael Gilhooly, a spokesman for the agency.

But it is a shock for those at the border. ``I am crying, my wife is
crying,`` said Samir Sheik, a Pakistani who had been working as a
street vendor in New York City and was arrested at a
checkpoint on his way to the Canadian border for having overstayed
his visa. ``It`s not fair because I am leaving the country.``

Mr. Sheik said that he could not return to Pakistan because he and
his wife married against the wishes of both their families - ``a love
marriage,`` as he tearfully described it - and that he
feared his wife would be killed by her father.

His wife, Erim Salim, shuffled silently around the crowded Salvation
Army center in Burlington, where they had been reunited after she
borrowed from friends and neighbors to pay his
$5,000 bond.

``She is sick now, mentally,`` said Mr. Sheik, nodding toward her
sadly. ``Millions of people live here and are overstays. Why is it
only for Pakistanis and Muslim people that they do this?``

Hiraj Zafer, a Pakistani cook from Salt Lake City who was also trying
to enter Canada, gave an answer. ``After 9/11, people hate us,`` Mr.
Zafer said.

Mr. Sheik said: ``Yes, they hate us. But we love America. We feel free here.``

************** Visit our website at www.asata.org **************

The Alliance of South Asians Taking Action (ASATA) works to educate, organize and empower the Bay-Area South Asian community in order to end violence, oppression and exploitation within and against our diasporic South Asian communities.

To Post a message, send it to: asata@eGroups.com

Aleph Null, P Mishra 2,

Remember that not too long ago African American, Chinese and female American citizens did not have equal rights by law. In addition, the tenor of the anti-immigration debate has changed now that most people immigrating to the US are no longer European...

...I would direct your attention to the kinds of unrealistic and hysterical attempts at preventing Mexicans from ``crossing the border``-the wire fence, the no mans land on each side, the police surveillance on air and foot...and yet who is picking up day laborers on street corners and in many cases stiffing them for backbreaking work? Ahh, the thrills of being undocumented....in any case, I`ve been doing some studies the various issues regarding immigration including the concepts of dual citizenship, global citizenship, automatic citizenship for undocumented workers...you can check my past interacts -about 2 years ago for more details...it should not be forgotten that our system has the labor of undocumented workers built into it-and benefits from it.

As for ``bad faith policy``; while I understand that there are several Pakistani immigrants who have no problems in registering with the govt. on the premise that they have nothing to hide, the point is that these kinds of info collections are at best, one way of keeping track of ``certain`` people and at worst, a virtual internment camp. When you write that you have no problem registering, the issue of suspicion of your person because of your ethnicity, national origin, religion, etc is completely avoided. Are Christian Ghanaians being asked to register? Iraqi Jews? How is this disparity of enforcement defensible? You may not have a problem with this, but I most certainly do having studied the less than well advised programs of the FBI, CIA and the US govt- and yes Mishra Sahib, to answer your question, none of my concerns make me anti American, just well informed and thinking. You apparently have been blinded by the right in your zeal to toe the line...

In addition, P. Mishra 2, the idea that Indians are the most vulnerable to stereotyping is an interesting one; care to provide some proof?

arjun_m #37

{Actually...The average abdul paki has a very limited ability to positively influence political developements...I dont think many pakis are fooled..I think they know who makes the real policy in Pakiland..}

True ... however, if any real change is to occur in Pakistan, it *has* to come from common Pakistanis. They are the only people who really have the power and should have the desire to fundamentally remake their country and change its direction. The one alternative I can see, foreign occupation followed by the equivalent of a de-Nazification campaign, such as Germany and Japan went through after WW II, is something for which nobody has the resources or the desire or the stomach.

Expecting India to help things along by showing `generosity` as the bigger country etc. is a most impractical suggestion. It is not going to address any root causes, extricate Pakistan from the corner into which its military rulers have manoeuvred it. India on its own can do very little to help democratic elements in Pakistan to reclaim their country. It can do actual harm by doing giving credibility to dictators and thus making them more difficult to dislodge. That is all I meant to say.

pmishra2 #39

That figure (100 billion dollars cost - per annum, presumably - due to infrastructural bottlenecks) is quite believable. As to corruption, at a concrete level, you find development projects not being completed for two decades, teachers in government schools drawing salaries and not showing up to teach, freshly metalled roads falling apart after three monsoons due to the corrupt nexus between contractors, PWD, politicians, and so on. In many of these cases it is apparently not shortage of development funds that is the problem but rather the improper or inefficient utilization of funds.

Just seeing that development expenditure buys what it`s supposed to will make a far larger difference than any peace dividend. Despite various procurement scandals, India`s defence spending is in all likelihood far more effectively utilized - towards salaries and pensions, maintenance, capability expansion - than the rest of government spending. Pakistanis, by ignorance or design, innapropriately project their own country`s situation onto India, where the armed forces do not hog anywhere near the same fraction of available resources as they do in Pakistan.

saminashah #40

Saminaji, if you are specifically referring to enforcement of registration requirements for aliens, I do not see why this should be considered `bad faith` by the GOTUS. If anything, it is long overdue. The real bad faith lay in the the prior non-enforcement of the registration law which has been on the books since 1996. That allowed hundreds of thousands of illegal aliens to live unmolested until the cruel crunch came early this year.

The government of a country has a clear interest in knowing where various people are within its borders. I know for a fact that many other countries have registration requirements for foreign visitors. India does, for one, and theirs are in many ways considerably more onerous - though I gather that despite this they don`t currently have a very effective handle on the information they need when they need it.

There are genuine privacy concerns, but they have to be weighed against the real risk of another 9-11. At any rate, the GOTUS is not going to end up knowing more about a non-resident alien than it typically does about one of its citizens, so there is no obvious inequity here.

To set the record straight, immigrant labour has been exploited for at least a hundred and fifty years, going back at least as far as the Irish and the Chinese. That continues to this day both with undocumented workers and - admittedly to a far lesser extent, and for a shorter period - with legal aliens in the pipeline for permanent residency. So this is certainly not the *beginning* of a bad faith relationship with immigrants of Arab or subcontinental background. And yet they continue to come ... as I did.

Those who play by the rules are plainly not worse off with the registration requirements than without them. If I manifestly have no plans of mass murder, it is strongly in my interest to make it easy for the feds to rapidly determine that I most likely pose no threat to public safety. Stereotyping and outright prejudiced treatment of a person are less likely to occur, the more information is available about him or her.

Finally, I believe it is especially in the interests of Indians in the US to support efforts along these lines, because they are precisely the most likely to suffer from unfair stereotyping in the absence of a registration database.

Zia...i probably should have added an adjective before experience! I`ve been to the INS a couple of times...not for the same reason you had to go, but boring as it may have been...it`s also damn annoying, and quite a few of the INS counter wallahs know nothing or don`t care to know anything about how to treat people. :-) Such is bureaucracy though.

Amit #32

Although I agree with you on that people should not use illegal means to go to USA, however I would not put a filter of smartness and education on who should emmigrate.

I know of quite a few desi people who came to this country without any education or money and just by sheer dint of hard work and street smartness are now multimillioners. As far as giving the return to the country of your birth, the fact is the poorer immigrent send more money home than the rich ones.

As far as Indo pak relations are concerned, I think India would be more than happy if it would not have to deal with Pakistan. It is Pakistani army
who can not help but interfere in the Indian affairs because of their jihadi outlook. Forget India they were interfering all over the world, until
the american boot made a contact with their butt. Now they seem to have cooled their fervour for the rest of the world, but they can not seem to be able to cool their enmity for India.

As long as this situation exists, it would be folish on the part of India to ease on the presure on the Pakis. One more point, international politics is law of the jungle. If a country does not have the muscle to back up their diplomacy no country will pay attention to them.

Adna_rafiq # 44

Although I agree with your argument, but your Indian perspective is also the Pakistani perspective.

The Indian perspective is that they would rather be left alone. If pakistan would mind their own business and not support the seperatist in India, India has no problem with Pakistan. If Pakistan wants to become another Saudi Arabia or Iran, more power to them, as long as they don`t bother us.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

To all the people who are advocating peace and friendship between Pakisan and India: Wake up and smell the coffee!

I think a more pragmatic approach would simply concentrate on ending the hostilities between the two nations -- nothing more, nothing less. This would be a first step. Friendship would probably follow in about two to three generations, but lets not get our hopes to high on this account. Right now, I really don`t see a peace constituency on either side of the border. Besides, just like the arjuns of India accuse most Pakistanis of being `closet jehadis`, its not difficult to sense an exponential increase in the ranks of the `closet modis` of India. Our respective generations simply have too much baggage to come to terms with each other. Before we can start being friends, we need to stop being enemies. A good start would probably consist of two steps:

From the Pakistani perspective: Forget about Kashmir! Our own house is burning today. Let`s concentrate on ``us`` first. We also need to recognize that Pakistan is a much smaller country (in terms of size, population and economy) and, therefore, its suicidal to try and achieve parity with India. India, due to its sheer size, will always play a bigger role in South Asian and world politics. This should not be turned into an inferiority complex the likes of which plagues our armed forces today. We are also lagging behind in most aspects. But, lets not get all worked up when an insecure pissant like arjun or jay tries to rub it in our face. And most of all, keep our national interest first and foremost. This means no support for Jihadis or Arabs in the name of Islam, Kashmir, Bosnia, Iraq or whatever.

From the Indian perspective: For God`s sake, stop whining about TNT and the creation of Pakistan! Pakistanis born after 1947 have no recollection of a common past and no aspirations to become Indians despite all the hardships we have to endure by virtue of being Pakistanis. We are like the offspring of two brothers who went their separate ways once they became adults. Yes, we may share similar traits, history and culture, but that doesn`t mean we have to live in the same house. And more importantly, we don`t have to be enemies because of this. (Besides, joint family system is not so romantic after all :) ) Maybe, TNT was a bad idea, but what`s done is done. Even the US has committed attrocities against the native Americans, but that doesn`t mean that Americans should denounce their citizenship based on some ugly aspect of their past. While Indians are busy singing the familiar ``cross-border terrorism`` tunes, secularism is being raped in their own backyard in broad daylight. Alas, most Indians are too obsessed with Pakistan to notice this disturbing development in the Indian psyche.

ana_dobarah (#3): Wasn`t much of an experience - boring as anything really.

SaraJ (#2): Thanks! And keep up the writing.

jay (#7)
Shame? At being Pakistani? Or any nationality? Interesting concept...

hrrehman (#10)
Are you for real? Move to South Africa immediately. Preferably twenty years in the past, if a time machine is handy.

FJ (#18)
Hmm, I don`t recall anybody calling me ``sir.`` Don`t know where you got that from.

subuhi (#15)
No worries, Boston`s the same as always. The Charles is grimy as ever, but the T`s a dollar now! Your nostalgia is on firm ground :)

#40 Saminasha

Fortunately, it is rare to see the kind of claptrap you have written voiced in public. What the US goverment is doing is, in fact, long overdue. It is obvious to even to the feeble minded that knowledge where foreign visitors are is one key to controlling borders and terrorism. US rules for visitors and students are MUCH less intrusive than rules in most other countries.

As I have said before, indians should support these rules and carefully avoid be co-opted by islamist supporters and anti-american radicals such as yourself. The biggest danger is that a pakistani/arab terrorist trades on physical similarities with indians and is able to acquire an indian passport which he/she then uses for their nefarious ends. I was pleased to see that India Abroad included several articles recently that made this same point.

...great piece, zia...loved the way you`ve evoked dry wit as a shield...i`d ask you to interact but as usual the pak vs india pissing contest seems to be replaying for the nth time, so i can see why you`re probably staying away...

These kinds of policies will be considered the beginning of the US govt`s ``bad faith`` relationship with a considerable population of its immigrants-South Asian/Pakistani/Arab immigrants. While our various local and national govt has debated about how to exactly exploit the labor of undocumented and documented workers without actually ensuring them political or economic parity with the average US citizen, these policies will raise anti immigrant law to a whole new low. The US will lose out in many ways; 1. the consequences of bad faith against people worldwide who want to work here and respect US law 2. the loss of valuable workers in all socio-eco levels 3. a grip on reality-i.e. unlike the claims some of our dear idiots on Chowk make- Americans, like Indians and Pakistanis need to be deprogrammed from their bogeymen conjuring tendencies by actually living with the people US policy is currently are ``systemizing``, 4. the attempt at quashing plurality and diversity of opinion, etc, etc, etc,
In other words, should you need it spelled it out for all y`all in the US: This Is Not Good For You Either....

SYNCHRONICITY,

Cooperation with pakistan is the most desirable outlook for india. A few weeks ago, iranian PM was in india, talking about overland pipe line through pakistan. For the firat time in history gas pipe lines blew up in pakistan.

Last week, at a joint afghan-pakistan meet, they proposed a pipe line for turmanistan gas. Now the poor afghan minister is dead, air crash in clear weather. This is called synchronicity.

It is good to know that still a few indians eat a lot of lotus. At least vajpaye and maost of the indians are clear, conflict with pakistan is a jihadic frontier event, are at last seeking israeli help. Only hope is for another major terror attack and with pak fingerprints all over. Then it will be liberation time for pakistan, just like how it has come at last for afghanistan, and soon for iraq.

Completely isolating pakistan is the right action, anything else will only delay the unavaoidable. The lelection of MMA and how mushy has engineered it is the confirmation of the jihadic control of the military.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

#34 AlephNull


Thank you for the clear analysis. BTW, when I was in Calcutta this winter an IIM_C professor published a study explaining that the loss to the indian economy due to constraints on trade and infra-structure WITHIN india was of the order of 100 billion dollars. Tells us where we need to be putting all our efforts! Not on cosying upto a military-run near-dictatorship which is more and more recognized to be the ``epicenter of terrorism``.

amit #30
And as far as Hindu-Muslim relations go, Pakistani Muslims wrote themselves out of this equation through the Partition deal in 1947, now there remain only Indian Muslims and their aspirations/advancement in this equation.

Hence India needs to concentrate on making sure Indian Muslims get their full due as Indians, beginning with what is promised under the Indian Constitution.

Any airtime given to Pakistani Muslims demands under the heading `Hindu-Muslim issues` or `unfinished business of Partition` is equivalent to robbing Peter(Indian Muslims) of their due to pay Paul(Pakistani Muslims) beyond their due.

amit #30

{Idon`t see why India or Pakistan have to play second fiddle to each other. We can be equal partners, can`t we?}

Most certainly not. Depending on the metric, India is between three and one hundred times larger than Pakistan. Quantitative equality therefore makes no sense. Yet parity with India has always been a goal of the Pakistani establishment - I think it mutated out of the original Muslim League demand for quantitative parity with everyone else. It is interesting to read the airy fantasies of a reconfigured `South Asia` that emerge from the likes of Romair - they are always designed to boost Pakistan`s influence far beyond what they can command on their own strength.

{Look, today India is forging strategic alliances with Iran and Afghanistan, which are both conservative Islamic countries. Similarly, Pakistan has a strong alliance with China, which is a non-muslim, communist nation.}

India has no fundamental differences with Iran or Afghanistan. Pakistan on the other hand is founded on the notion that Indian Muslims do not need to live on terms of individual civic and legal equality with non-Muslims and need not try. It is impossible for India to peacefully coexist with this ideology, and criminally foolish to strengthen those elements of Pakistani society - military and Islamists - who man the citadel of this ideology.

No constructive relationship with Pakistan is possible as long as their state ideology remains unchanged. I do not see that happening soon, or the jihad machine being dismantled. India has a very limited ability to positively influence political developments in Pakistan. The one thing India should not do - for the good of her own citizens, and incidentally also for the sake of real democracy in Pakistan - is give any credibility to elements of Pakistani society who are intrinsically hostile to India. If any business is to be done with Pakistan, it should only be with a genuine democratically elected Pakistani government, if and when it emerges. That of course rules out the fraudulent Musharraf/Jamali dispensation.

amit #32

{You can contrast this with the past, when we were an economic powerhouse and the rest of the world wanted to come to India. I know that the Indian economy is in relatively better shape, but it is far, far away from its full potential. An Indo-Pak patch-up will not remove all these problems, but it will be a step in the right direction for both countries.}

Indians ended up in a shambles precisely because in the past they could not effectively control the terms under which outsiders, from Central Asians to Europeans arrived in India. India should see that that never repeats. The Pakistani state is the civilizational successor of the Central Asian marauders. A patch-up with them is impossible until their fundamental ideology changes.

amit #31

{If we are all worse off, given the demands of defence expenditure, loss of blood and treasure etc., shouldn`t both sides think of a new start ?}

I want to reiterate that India doesn`t stand to gain much from a peace dividend. Curbing corruption losses from development expenditure will make a far larger difference. Pakistanis as a whole may gain proportionately more from not being parasitised by their ruling army - but the army will not let that happen.

Re:ajeet
I am all for smart, educated people moving to the US for higher education and then making their mark in the US and/or investing back home. That is a healthy trend that strengthens India and raises our profile in the world. What I find terrible, are the young, uneducated or marginally educated people who cannot go to the west by regular means. They will try all kinds of methods, including paying smugglers by land or sea to reach the west. One person even tried to hide in the cargo hold of an airplane. Many of them die in tragic circumstances or suffer tremendous indignities.
Why do these people risk their life and limb to move ? The reason is that they do not have a decent life back in India or Pakistan. Perhaps, they did not have the brains or the money to get a good education. We don`t know but the fact is that they would rather die trying to move to the west than make it in their home countries. That speaks volumes about all our proud accomplishments. You can contrast this with the past, when we were an economic powerhouse and the rest of the world wanted to come to India. I know that the Indian economy is in relatively better shape, but it is far, far away from its full potential. An Indo-Pak patch-up will not remove all these problems, but it will be a step in the right direction for both countries.

amit #31

You are now raising a completely different argument, a cunning bogeyman to distract us from the naivete of your original argument.
No one
has argued that India and Pakistan should attack each other with nuclear weapons. You are now pretending that I have made such a recommendation !!

You have argued that the two sides should work together to form an economic union etc. Anyone with even a modest amount of information knows that such an eventuality is at least 50 years out. What is possible is what has been offered 10 times by the indian goverment --- indeed, by that Atal Behari Vajpayee personally. Advance trade issues, freeze the kashmir dispute and move on. None of that has come to anything. Why?

Why is it that the indian goverment has been able to flexibly meet every insurgency --- from the Nagas to the Tamils (not an insurgency but a broad movement in the 60s), from the Mizos to the Gorkhas but unable to settle the Kashmir insurgency? The answer is $100/million per year routed from the muslim world to India in the form of the jehaidis and incubated in Pakistan. BTW, these figures are taken from the ``Daily Times`` a well known Pakistani daily.

Wake up and look at the real world. In the best case, a cold peace may be possible between the two countries once the Pakistani military has been sized down and Musharraf removed from the scene. My guess is that this cannot happen for another 5 years. It would involve a lot of restraint and enormous effort on both sides. Suggesting anything else is deeply unrealistic.

Much more likely is a long US - USSR type stalement for another 10-20 years while Pakistan is gradually outspent and their militarism overwhelms their economy. And, yes, it will also lead to a more brutal and militarized india. But what are the realistic choices?

Re:pmishra2
Some day in the future, the enmity of India and Pakistan will end, simply because we will all get tired of that BS. The question is how long it will take before we come to our senses. Today, there is a lot of anger in India at Pakistan`s jihadi policies and Pakistanis are sore about 1971, Kashmir etc. However, the question to ask is whether these hostilities are making us better off or worse off ? If we are all worse off, given the demands of defence expenditure, loss of blood and treasure etc., shouldn`t both sides think of a new start ?

Re: alephnull
I don`t see why India or Pakistan have to play second fiddle to each other. We can be equal partners, can`t we? Look, today India is forging strategic alliances with Iran and Afghanistan, which are both conservative Islamic countries. Similarly, Pakistan has a strong alliance with China, which is a non-muslim, communist nation. So if we can bond with muslim countries and Pakistan can bond with non-muslims, why the heck can`t we get try to forge a new relationship ?
I agree with you that Pakistan is paying a price for its jihadic policies. However, the tide within Pakistan is turning against that. They seem to be realizing that those policies don`t work in today`s world. In spite of all our past anger, if the other side starts changing, shouldn`t we keep an open mind about the future ?

arjun...
hello???? i didn`t say indians were in the same boat...my whole point was that gloating and triumphalism such as you and your friend indian do really don`t behoove you..but you don`t give a rat`s ass anyway so what`s the point. just keep on making your idiotic blanket statements about `us Pakis` ....since that is all your participation on chowk really pathetically consists of anyway. And next time you refer to me in `you Pakis`...kindly take note of the fact that i`m against what is happening in Kashmir, i refuse to be sucked into the abyss Pakistan has flung itself into, and I`m not a big fan of the RSS and BJP with their church burnings and violence against minorities either. So next time you address a post to me...either leave me and my like-minded friends here out of `you Pakis` or better yet...don`t address a post to me. Thank you!

Is it just me, or is there a upsurge in the number of ``south asians`` after 8/11? Amusing to hear that once on the INS office, ``pakistanis are sort of like indians``. Talk about expediency...


Amit #24

YOur sentiments are admirable. Many of us start from the point you have articulated. It takes only a small amount of research (and occassional reading of ``liberal`` papers like Dawn) to realize that such a viewpoint is not supported by history or facts. I suggest you make the investment of research in this space, rather than generate these vacuous feel-good statements.

There is an on-going effort to implicate all ``brown folks` into a knee-jerk anti-US posture. I think it is very important for indians to avoid this type of collectivism. It is a clever trick on part of islamist sympathizers and traditional anti-american activists to try to co-opt us.

Instead, we need to deepen and broaden awareness of the ``indian`` brand. It will not always be easy (e.g., some post 9/11 violence against sikhs and indians) but we need to educate people about the differences between indians and pakis/arabs. Fortunately, with increasing commercial ties, impact of yoga, indian film and food, knowledge of Mahatma Gandhi etc. this is a task that is getting easier.

amit #24

{If Pakistanis are being targeted today, what is the guarantee that India will not make the list tomorrow ?}

There is no guarantee - the future is indefinite, anything can happen. And in fact, Indians and other nationalities have already suffered and continue to suffer occasional indignities and worse for what is clearly not their doing. See for instance:

http://www.rediff.com/us/2003/feb/23ajit.htm

That said, there is an clear causal connection between jihadic policies chosen, with clear intent and due deliberation, by Pakistan`s rulers in the last quarter century, and the attention that Pakistanis have been getting today. Indians, including Indian Muslims, are not seen in the same way because they plainly are far, far, less likely to be part of the jihadic enterprise. Uncle Sam is often slow on the uptake but he does eventually figure out who has really been up to no good.

There is of course no perfect justice in this world. Clearly many hardworking honest Pakistanis are being made to pay for the sins of their delusional rulers. Nevertheless, it does seem that the current American policies have finally begun to extract a price from the elite class of Pakistan who as a group are most culpable for their country`s tribulations. It is time they learnt that their actions have consequences which they cannot escape indefinitely.

amit #24

{Imagine for a moment, if you had peace and prosperity in the subcontinent, with India and Pakistan as allies, not enemies. What a formidable combination that would be !! No one would dare look down upon us. We could open up trade and commerce between South Asia and Central Asia. We could even become a potential superpower combo.}

That will not happen with Pakistan as presently constituted simply because they are unwilling to play second fiddle to India. Further, the boons of a peace dividend for India are vastly overrated. There is no reason to believe that any of India`s social dysfunction would disappear rapidly even if Pakistan were to vanish from the map. As for Central Asia, Pakistan`s autocratic rulers would love nothing more than to get rich by levying tolls on trade, without becoming a productive country themselves, and without such inconveniences as democracy. India should never permit this to happen. As for becoming a superpower, India has a better chance by far without the Pakistani albatross.

Amit # 24

That is the silliest argument that I have seen on the chowk. People all over the world jump at the chance of moving to US, because it is an economic powerhouse. It has nothing to do with Indo-Pak enmity. Also there is nothing wrong with desi moving to us. Most of the advances made by India are because of the immigrents.

Even if India and Pak patched up today, it will make very little difference to India`s economy. If GOI keeps working diligently on raising the rate of literacy and improving the infrastructure and continues the open policy on business, India will do well. It may be a long way off but if Indian economy become comparable to Europe of even Australia, you will see reverse immigration to India.

Re:ana_dobarah #21
It is sad that Indians and Pakistanis always gloat at each other`s misfortune. No wonder, we were conquered by outside forces in the past and get kicked around by everybody today. A handful of turks or brits would thrash the entire subcontinent and we would just let that happen. Earlier individual kingdoms enjoyed each other`s misfortune, even encouraged it. Today, India and Pakistan are carrying on with the same tradition. What a shame !!
If Pakistanis are being targeted today, what is the guarantee that India will not make the list tomorrow ? A more fundamental question is why do our young and talented people try to leave at the slightest opportunity and subject themselves to such humiliation ? The reason is because we have made a mess in the subcontinent, our economies are terrible and people are desperate to get out. Every day you hear of young Indians and Pakistanis hiding in some container or being smuggled somewhere in Europe. Imagine for a moment, if you had peace and prosperity in the subcontinent, with India and Pakistan as allies, not enemies. What a formidable combination that would be !! No one would dare look down upon us. We could open up trade and commerce between South Asia and Central Asia. We could even become a potential superpower combo. Heck, once upon a time, it was the goras who were trying to come to India and not the other way round. Why can`t we see that we are in a zero sum game here ?

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Great factual report!

It is just a sign of these times but

I only expect things to get worse

before they get better.

Ras

{we are respected, but you are suspected}

---why don`t you tell that to the Sikh family in Arizona who lost a loved one, or Sikhs around the U.S. who have suffered because of the inability or ignorance of certain people in terms of ethnicity. Your triumphalism makes you just as much an ignoramus as some of these folks who supposedly respect you.

Sorry to break into this thread.

Latest news England beat Pakistan by 112 runs.

They called you ``Sir``? Impressive.

Dear Indian #17,
It is not time to score any points. We are also equally suspect in the eyes of average american. they don`t know and can`t recognize any ethnicity beyond their front-yard.

***************
Indian?`` Familiar question-in-a-word.


``No, I`m from Pakistan.`` Familiar answer-in-a-phrase.


``Pretty much the same actually,`` I add after a pause.

*********************************************

Pakis, Please do us a favor. At INS office dont malign our identity. We are different. We are respected you are suspected. US has ultimately done a justice to us Indians.

This article brought back flashbacks of the day I went for my registration.
I couldnot sleep the night before. I was in the line at 7:00am, and I finally got interviewed at 11:00am. Because the new computer system was down that day, no questiones were asked and the lady told me that I could go after collecting the form from me. Guess I was very lucky! But I have observed one thing. Because of the pressure of Pakistani government, the attitude of the INS officers with Pakistanis has been better than with the people of other countries. I don`t know this might just be my observation and might be wrong.But a good description, I must say.

I am simultaneously nostalgic and alarmed when i read your article. You bring back such memories of Boston. I took the T to Alewife every morning for work - my office was just down the street from the station. I lived off Govt. Centre for a bit too. You know what my favorite part of the T is? On the red line, going over the Charles, either early in the morning or late evening. It`s a beautiful view of the Boston skyline spread against the river.

But articles like yours remind me that Boston may not be the same as i remember it, even if the skyline (unlike NYC`s) still remains. Aside from your experience of INS registration, i`d be interested to know if your day to day experiences have changed any in the last few months. Have you felt any difference in attitudes towards you as a Paki or a Muslim, even in a city like Boston or Cambridge? I hope you say no. I don`t want to have lost the Boston i knew just two years ago.

jayjay 11,

That is really pathetic, what is needed is to change it. What really pi$$es me of is that no pakistani accepts that it is their support for jihad that has put them in this position. I had been calling for the iraquisation of pakistan for the last three years, now even mushy says that after iraq it could be pakistan. If there is another attack by al quida, it will defenitely be the turn of pakistan, and india will be in the proxy to do the task, the weatern alliance of afghanistan, the kurds of irq.

No pakistani seem to realise the sh$$it they are in, it is always the talk of zia did it, it is the poverty, it is the mullah. No sir it is the likes of you who has to speak out.

No doubt in the last few months there has been some change, dawn is publishing at least letters to editors about reviewing of kashmir, the need for kashmir day etc.

Even on the anonymity of chowk peple do not dare to say against jihadic killings. Jihad is quick sand, only hope to survive is to pi$$ on it.

#10 by hrrehman on February 22, 2003 0:32am PT

After readying hrrehman`s racist remarks, my shame on being a Paki has increased exponentially.

jay:

are u always this high-strung? not good for the heart u know :(

#8 & 9 by Jay

Jay, you are right. We Pakistanis and you Indians cannot be same. You are educated, we are not. You are democratic, we are not. You are progressive, we are anything but progressive. Your constitution guaranties freedom of expression, freedom of faith and belief, ours is biased against minorities. You are pragmatic and open-minded, we are clung to a rotten ideology and a retarding belief. It can go on and on.

I am ashamed to be a Paki but cannot get rid of the tag attached to me by the virtue of my birth in Rawalpindi.

Reply Jay #7

The only principled polititicians in Pakistan are the Wali Khan and their party. I have followed their track record since long.

He once explained his identity as follows:

I am a Pathan for the last 5000 years.
I am a Muslim for the last 1400 years.
And I am a Pakistani for the last 50 years.

I liked that.

#7 by jay
I have never been mistaken for an Indian. Thank God.
I guess we Pakistanis think of ourselves as better looking
not to mention fair in complexion than the Indians, I have friends
who get extreamly offended if someone ask them if they are Indians.
I am always surprised at the fact that you can spot an Indian a mile away, because they have such a typical look, dark, ugly, skinny. I am a proud Pakistani.

indians and pakistanis

Two indians and two pakistanis were traveling by train. The pakistanis bought two tickets, indian bought only one. The two indians, when they saw the ticket inspector got into the toilet, the inspector knocked, one ticket was shown through the door.

The pakistanis marvelled the great idea, on the return journey, they bought only one ticket, the indians did not buy any. Pakistanis were puzzled. The pakistanis got into the toilet as the indians did before. The indian knocked at the door, the pakistani showed the ticket, indian took it from the pakistani, and the two indians went into another toilet and locked themselves.

This is the problem with the pakistanis, they can only imitate. See the bomb, they copied india and now they have lost all of their independance because of it. The americans are at their airports, the FBI are operating in pakistan, they are kept under the economic yoke, no right off of the loans only differment so that it baloon again in a few years.

The yanks will go only with their islamic bomb. If there is another attack on the US, every body knows where the bosses are. Zia, take it from me, never try to look at india, look to saudi arabia, move to faisalabad and change your name to zia bin ahmed. good luck.

Very well written. It is writing of the simple things that is so difficult. Requires perception and an acute sensory capability.

Barring exceptions, the Americans still remain humane and good people.

Imagine, if some Americans had banged aircraft into our buildings.

Our mobs would have simply lynched them. No questions asked.

Our people keep killing each other routinely simply because another person has a different belief. We also have laws to do it. Blasphemy law.

``Indian?`` Familiar question-in-a-word.


``No, I`m from Pakistan.`` Familiar answer-in-a-phrase.


``Pretty much the same actually,`` I add after a pause.``

You should have said it boldly, instead of writing it large on your face `` I am sorry, I am from pakistan``. I have seen it on the pakistanis face, time and time again, the shame of being apakistani.

Great, pretty much the same, what is same. No sir pakistan is the land of the pure, upholder of individual freedom to presue jihad, a country on a path to a past 1400 years old. Never, never again say that, you can try the familiar desi line. Never again say that india and pakistan are same and soon that will be a crime at par with supporting taliban.

i dont see what is so exciting about visiting a government office to get some paper work done. You might as well write about how you got your driver`s license. Or your exciting journey via PIA from Islamabad to New York via Manchester.
What would have been exciting is if you had overstayed your visa by a couple of years, were wanted on felony charges in five different states, had warrants for your arrest issed from the Lahore High Court with the Pakistan embassy actively seeking your extradition from the US. THEN you would have something exciting to report when you went to register yourself...
:-)

apologies! i thought this was somewhat relevant.
-------------------
Patriot Act Sequel Worse Than Original
by Rajeev Goyle

JUST WHEN we thought the Bush administration`s assault on our constitutional protections had begun to subside comes news that Attorney General John Ashcroft is prepared to go even further.

The Justice Department over the last several months has prepared draft legislation - the USA Patriot Act II - that expands the war on terrorism in dangerous ways. It enlarges many of the controversial provisions in the first USA Patriot Act, which passed Congress in the shocking days after Sept. 11.

Overnight, that bill weakened constitutional safeguards that took us decades to build. This bill, if enacted in its present form, would do even worse damage. By giving itself unprecedented power to wiretap citizens, detain people in secret, revoke citizenship and disseminate citizens` confidential information, the administration has trained its sights not only on terrorists but on the very freedom it purports to uphold.

After all, it was President Bush who famously admonished us that we should not let the terrorists win by changing our open, free society and that we should live normally, go on about our business, travel and spend money. Many of us heeded his advice, albeit somewhat anxiously.

But the administration did not respond in kind. Instead of upholding America`s great tradition of respecting the rule of law, it has decided that no power is too great. Consider some of what is in Patriot II:


Wiretapping individuals for 15 days, without consulting a judge, if the government declares a national emergency.

Sampling and cataloguing genetic information without court order and without consent.

Permitting and encouraging the dissemination of confidential, sensitive information about citizens` credit cards and educational records among federal, state and local law enforcement officials.

Encouraging people to spy on one another by giving businesses blanket immunity to phone in false terrorism tips, even if done with reckless disregard for the truth.

Prohibiting the release of information about people the government has detained, even if they have not been charged with a crime, by creating loopholes in the Freedom of Information Act.

Stripping Americans of their citizenship if they associate with an organization that the Justice Department unilaterally determines to be related to terrorism.
And this is just a sampling.

The problem with the administration`s approach is not its vigor - people from all racial, political and religious groups want to bring terrorists swiftly to justice - but its overreach and its vast potential for abuse. Preventing abuse is the reason we have constitutional checks and balances in the first place.

All al-Qaida members caught in the United States should be investigated and dealt with. But what about the innocent people who, because of law enforcement`s mistakes, incompetence or prejudice, end up as ``suspected`` terrorists? Once suspected of terrorism, constitutional protections evaporate, leaving people in fear and subject to harm.

Hundreds of people with no connection to terrorism have been detained and deported in secret since 9/11 without access to counsel. Too many innocents are being caught in the web.

It was not so long ago that this nation went down a very slippery slope. Hindsight makes the shameful internment of Japanese-Americans during World War II and the FBI`s ruthless prosecution of civil rights leaders in the 1960s and 1970s universally condemned. We must be mindful of those lessons today.

Thankfully, these concerns are not limited to one side of the political spectrum. Bipartisan majorities have emerged that are deeply skeptical of the Justice Department`s power grab during this period of national anxiety.

Some of the loudest voices denouncing the administration have been powerful Republicans, including columnist William Safire and former conservative congressmen Dick Armey of Texas and Bob Barr of Georgia. And Democratic Rep. Jerrold Nadler of New York termed Patriot II ``little more than the institution of a police state.``

President Bush and Mr. Ashcroft have not formally introduced Patriot II to Congress and the public. But as they deliberate, perhaps they should heed their own advice. Don`t let the terrorists win. Keep America safe and free. We like America, and the Constitution, just the way it is.

Zia...thank you for this. What an experience!

{Feel much safer knowing all the scary people are on record now.}

-ah, the irony of it all.

Zia,
such a great way to write about the registration process. I went with my fiancee last week and it was exactly how you described it. Wonderfully detailed!!! :)

sara

Thank God! They are not doing all this in UK, but I have a sneaking feeling that sooner or later the British gov will alsao follow suit. Farooq