Islam in Crisis (part 1)

Two bits: Chowk has often published discourse that has highlighted/discussed the themes in the article. Many debates have raged in these corridors--that are still preserved. Please view at least one from my memory--

http://63.194.130.82/cgi-bin/show_article.cgi?aid=00000104&channel=university%20ave&start=0&end=9&page=1&chapter=1

IT HAS TO BE AN INDIAN,

The great pak scholars of islam on the chowk, the likes of urstruly and nasqband cannot dare to look at the skeleton of islam to find the basic structure that prevents the flourishing of democracy in islamic countries. It is heartening to see an indian looking at it so that once and for all pakistanis can accept that jihadists are not the creation of afghan war and the US funding, it was an inherent desire and US only acted as a catalist. Accept also that madrassa s and jihad are not response to poverty, but the very values that insist that the book has all that is to learn.

With out the moderating influence of a majority rel;igion, or a deep rooted cultural history, any muslim nation will fall into the morass of jihad. That is exactly what is happening to pakistan. A liberation by india is the only hope, unless of course the people of pakistan are ready to smash that photo from every pak govt offivces and give a place for him along with that man from europe with that funny mush.

Interesting article.

How do you question a dogma? How does one challenge an othrodoxy? How is dissent possible, when it is considered akin to a sin?

A better question is: why is reform being resisted within Islam? Who will stand to lose from a reformation within Islam? What is the hierarchy of power in Islam? Reforms threatens the religion of Islam or its followers?

Insitutional orthodoxy has many benefits. It is only a question of guessing, who will lose these benefits to understand from the where the opposition to reform, in Islam, originates. There is an argument that claims that Islam is a representative religion. If that is so, then why is the task of interpretating Islam an exclusive monopoly of a selected minority? Why is there an intra-religious apartheid within Islam; between those who are strict constructionist and those who are interpretative of its message?

Islam is only 1425 years old. If that year is taken as a reflection of the Christian calender, then reformation is still a 150 years away in Islam on the optimistic side. Islam is still caught up in a period best described as a ``late medieval`` period.

The problem with Islam is that there is no tradition of dissent within Islam to question the official wisdom and challenge it. Islam is politically fissured, morally apathetic, economically insolvent and culturally nostalgic, which creates the perfect breeding grounds for ideas of uptopian non-sense. Fundlementalism in Islam is not so much as a weak political response to an alien situation, stemming out of frustration and deprivations, but more as self-denial of insecurity. Crisis, and the response to a crisis situation, lends itself to insecurity by being confronted by a problem, which defies easy solutions. The problems of Islam have no easy solution, because its own practioners are wont to change or amend their errant manners. This intellectual paralysis encourages a status quo as Islam seeks refuge in its past glories and creates a mythology of its past greatness as a solution to its present problems. The sin of this intellectual dishonesty is that turns it a dynamic situation into a pedestrian formula - a paradigm, which offers the vision, but not the substance nor the solution to the problems confronting Islam.

The only crisis in Islam is a refusal to accept reality and that simple reality is that the perception of Islam is not, what its follwers deem, but that of a religion prone to extermism. As long as Islam denies this reality and refuses to deal with this problem, it will be in crisis.

Ciao

Just curious. Can some knowledgable Hindue write a piece on basic beliefs of Hinduism for knowldge of non-Hindues. Our generation has little knowledge about it unlike our knowledge about Christianity, Judaism or even Buddism.

I am intrigued by the following:

Is it a philophy, faith or a way of or all combined?

Does it lack dynamism because of its flexibility, tolerance and vagueness?

Why Hinduism has not spread beyond the Subcontinent?

Why Jainism and Buddism could not take root in the Subcontinent?

Why Islam managed to take a foothold in the Subcontinent?

Why there has been no great Hindue empire in the Subcontinent after Ashoka?

Does Hinduism merge with Islam at the level of ``Sufism``?

Forgive me if some questions sound stupid.

Bhitai #10

>so apparently the concept of Tawheed (Unity) doesn`t make sense to you anymore..

A model fanatical Muslim who believes that Unity of God is the preserve of Islam.

This is what an average Muslim is like. Bin Ladens are not the problem.

sameerjb #10 I am sure that you do not need anyone to teach you mercy, honesty, respect for all faiths, respect for all individuals. But others are not as enlightened as you: Read Mr. no-more-a-slave #16 and the level of respect he displays for other people`s faith - muslims in this case - if you dont believe such low life exists on this planet.
Nor does the Quran say anywhere that it is the only source of such inspiration - indeed it makes it clear, explicitly and implicitly, that it is not the only source of this message.
I hope this responds adequately to your question. (And why am I spending my time trying to tell you stuff you are supposed to know? I assume you finished the Quran the old-fashined way, like a parrot without bothering to understand what it says).

Rashid Talib Saheb

-- yours is a candid and darhing script to show up on Chowk -- even though we have discussed this untouchable subject on the Chowk quite a few times – among Sameerjb, hamidm, Saminasha, freethinker, tahmed, ylh, urstruly and others – without being killed in the process --

this s something else.

Indeed it`s a taboo subject -- too hot to handle -- intellectually -- might hurt the feelings, sensibilities, of millions of Muslims -- and whatever –

these are the excuses some real and some contrived -- that have been promoted to avoid the issue of examining and analyzing certain aspects of our religion under a dissecting microscope .

I think you are 100% right -- that the time for intellectual dishonesty has passed -- the community is in dire need of a thorough reality check.

as in Hinduism, Buddhism, Judiasm or ChristiaNITY -- a religion to be a religion -- has to have a BOOK -- a religion without a Book is no religion -- it is paganism.

Quran is Islam`s triumph as a Book -- and its undoing as well.

In the past -- Quran has inspired the spiritualism and intellectualism that ushered into hundred branches of creativities in science, philosophy, in medicine, architecture, chemistry, mathematics and physical sciences etc. --

yet Quran also is Islam`s stumbling block -- because of its Finality -- a Finality that is tightly bound with the Finality of the Prophet --

and it is this FINALITY -- that has frozen Islam and its followers in space and time for more than a millennium.

You write:

``The ‘freethinking’ Mutazilites put forward the radical thesis, supported by an array of impressive dialectics, that while the Quran was undoubtedly God’s word, it was scripture ‘created in time’; thus historically specific (or time- and place-bound.````

The Mutazilites were indeed brilliant with keen foresight in trying to project Quran – as history bound and time specific -- to leave some OPENINGS for its rejuvenation with changing times -- but their argument could not carry the day against some of the biggest stumbling blocks in the path of Islam --

the Prophet who brought the Book from God was -- Khatimunnabeen –

the Final Prophet -- who brought -- the Final Book -- the Quran

that is -- the LAST prophet with the LAST word from God.

A claim that no other religion probably ever made -- though most claim patented copyrighted -- exclusive access to (their) God.

in other words the Muslims were saying --

this is it --

this is the FINAL Messenger – and Quran is the Final BOOK –

no more messengers of God – after Mohammad .

no more BOOK from GOD -- after Quran

as if the Islam was saying -- with the last Prophet and the last Book -- the world has or should have reached -- a Religious DEAD END -- and the Muslims – should reach their civilizational -- DEAD END.

As if after our Mohammad and after our Quran -- God fell SILENT -- went to SLEEP -- had nothing else to say -- nothing else to offer –

or

in other words as they used to say in the 70`s -- ``Perhaps God is dead``?

one is inclined to think that probably the Asharites would have prevailed anyway -- even if they were not persecuted -- because as YOU rightly say -- there are these built-in fault lines running through the body structure of Islam –- in its relationship to its Prophet, -- its Book and -- the Book’s author -- God -- conjoined together -- in the perpetual FINALITY -- for all times to come.

I hope you will continue this discourse in more than two parts -- and I hope our fundamentalist friends on Chowk will keep their kool and discuss dispassionately their ‘alternative’ viewpoints-- without ‘expletives’ and without ‘jihad’:-)

regards

hasan

Rasheed Talib,
Thank you for your informative and educational article on Islam. I wish there were Hindus and Christians like you who would take a similar look at their religions as well. In any case, Muslims with the courage to look at Islam with an open mind are rarer, and I am proud that you as an Indian are doing so.
I would like to add two comments:
1. Islam`s relation with people of other religions: There has to be a spirit of tolerance, and acceptance of people of other (or no) faiths. The Vedas, Quran, Dhammapada etc are all great books that embody the highest spiritual thoughts of various civilizations. We as modern human beings are fortunate to have access to the best thoughts of various religions - and we should feel free to incorporate the best values from each religion in our daily life. At the same time, we should reject negative concepts that have become part of our religions, be they caste or the concepts of kafir, world of war, world of religion etc.
2. Islam`s relations with its own people: The various in-groups and out-groups of Islam have a frictional relationship (Shia, Sunni, Wahhabi, Deobandi, Sufi, Ahmediya etc) amongst themselves, that makes a mockery of belonging to a single Ummah.
The Buddha has said (I paraphrase) - do not believe anything that anyone says, even if it is me, unless it really makes sense to you. If we follow this concept, hopefully we will stop taking things literally (to our disadvantage) and see them in their context of time and place.

This article will prove that Islam is a cult. Majority Muslims will refuse to accept any wrong with it. Blame will be given to translators of Quran, Muslims, nonMuslims, America, Jews but Islamic cult cant be questioned. Like other cultists, average Muslim surrenders his, her brains to the cult.

Following is not the fault of Islam.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_18-2-2003_pg7_25

It is the fault of translators of Quran, Muslims, nonMuslims, America, Jews.

Sir, Religion and ideology promote extreme views and distort clear thinking. They are the biggest hurdle in rethinking things. They are important tools for supressing freedom of thought and speech. Religion and ideology have been used to preserve status quo in our societies and change has been made difficult.

But as einstein said, the significant problems we face (today) cannot be solved by the same level of thinking that created them.

Interestingly, the hold of religion is so strong that even for problems created by religion itself, we are forced to seek a solution in religion again. Why can`t we think outside this box for a moment?

This exchange here is very well meaning and equally wishful and futile. Practical example of what I am trying to suggest.

Values of unity, ethics an dprinciples of human well being are universal and religion may not be invoked to explain everything noble under this sun.

Well-written piece Rasheed Talib Sahib.

It appears that Islam is not in crisis but that some Muslims always are.

I firmly believe that an intra-Muslim dialogue needs to happen first

before we embark on a journey into our relationship with other religions.

Islam is not in danger but the grip of the Mullah just might be

threatened, which could actually be a welcome sign.


Ras

Talib - a very good article - for we moderate/secular Muslims

But if someone thinks that the fanatics can be put down by logic or rationality, he/she is living in a fool`s paradise.

I never get into an orguement on religion because the other starts quoting Arabic and tries to take me on a tangent;

My astand is simple : ``It is my belief and my intrerpretation and that is your belief and your intrepretation. And we both have a right to it``.

All of us are witness to those crazy TV shows where believer of one religion is trying the prove the other wrong.

Some good points added to my arguement armoury are:

a) Details in Quran are time-specific but the spirit is eternal. This is actually true for all religions. And all relgions preach goodness.

b) There are no good old time. In fact, all good old times are mostly a result of fading memories and nostalgia. (my school/academy days, one example)

c) The Christians also mistreated the Jews.


As for the Madressas, the Chinese ban religious education until age 18. First get the contemporary education and when the mind is mature, learn about religion. Sounds very logical and sensible.

I remeber as a small child going every Friday to a mosque where the Mulla was called Koharay Shah (Axe Shah). He was fiery and volatile and got one into a frenzy.

Once the missionaries came into our area and were distributing some literature. Koharay Shah had gotten me so worked up against other religions that I took the Literayure, tore it and ran away.

I was bigotted and it was a shameful act by me. So keep the kids away from the fury of religion the type our Mullas preach.

Superb piece. Excellent Analysis. Extremely well-written.

#10
I have stopped living in Islam by not following it, by not believing in god and by start liking another non-theistic religion.
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so apparently the concept of Tawheed (Unity) doesn`t make sense to you anymore.. I don`t know if it`s relevant here, but would defintely like to know the gist of your thought process that led you to give up Unity in favor of other doctrines(atheism,dualism,pantheism...or just taking it easy-ism)..

#11
no_more

I`m glad you`re trying to learn to write.. pls. keep trying..

#7 Bhitai

``We all live in Islam, whatever form we choose to encourage ourselves.`` (Goethe, Letter to Adele Schopenhauer, 19.9.1831, WA IV, 49, 87)

This is what is called the shameless misuse by Muslims of the generosity of nonMuslims.