Islam in Crisis (part 1)

A couple of questions -

1. Is there any original history of muhammad available from anyone who did not accept mohammad as a prophet? Any one who did not wish peace upon his head?

2. What does it mean that ``Medina Pact is the first ever written constitution in the history of mankind?`` (urstruly # 72)

Was it the first written contract between two parties? First ever contract between two parties?

Has anyone studied the Greek, Roman, Indian, Egyptian, and Chinese civilizations, preceding what happened in Saudi Arabia by hundreds, even thousands, of years? We need some of these answers to understand the history being presented here.

Tahmed

``Congratulations!! You have just won the award for the dumbest argument one could come up with, namely ``do as the mullahs do``. ``

Tahmed...you are the stupidest person I have ever come across...an expert in hijacking the topic..always judgemental. Snubbing others while not trying to get to the point.

While I was just replying to one of the people out here who had written that there was no glorious past in Hinduism which some hindus are trying to revive now. Tell me ...who gives you guys a right to always rant and rave about the Islamic glorious past... day in and day out but totally reject all other religions and maek fun of them. It is you guys who are instigating other religions to become fanatical..this is the point I was trying to drive home. If mullahs and church leaders go on converting and hating other relgions, then for how long could hinduism stay secular and uneffected...sooner or later ..it also became a bit aggressive(which it never was) so as to survive the competition.


``Forget the past, my friend. It is dead. Look for a glorious future instead, since that is where you will be spending the rest of your life. And your children. And your children`s children. Mullahs and priests of other religions are remnants of the past, 14th century men living in the 21st century. ``

Tahmed...Get rid of MULLAHS in your own country first. YOU are sermonising me while you live in one of the non-secular countries of the world. It is you muslims who are always glorifying the past..trying to proove that only Islam is good and rest all is crap ..everybody else is kafir...So improve your ways first.
As for me..I don`t even go to any temples or religious places... but from what I know.. unlike the mullahs..I have never ever heard the hindu priests saying bad things about other religions


``And forget about ``loving your religion``. Love ALL religions - they all possess a common message at the core, and that is what is important. ``

I love all religions but do you???? Ask yourself...seriously...
I celebrate all festivals in my country and have friends from all religions...but what abt you??? I wish people `Happy Eid`` but so you wish others happy diwali or holi...I am sure..never...Allah will not forgive you for wishing a kafir or beiing freindly with them.
I have so many times tried to be freindly with Pakistanis..in real life .but NO...they prefer to be freindly with believers... they are the ones who are full of hatred for Indians especially Hindus. So I hae stopped it now..

``Dont associate yourself with the mischief and evil that has been committed in past centuries (and continues to be committed by the likes of not-a-slave in the form of cheap insults) in the name of religion. ``


Mischief was done in the past centuries by the muslim invaders in India. And you are a by-product of that mischief..tahmed
Go to your Islamic jihadi mates...who are hell-bent upon making this world hell for `kafirs`...Osama and other who are always upto the mischief....Tell the Kashmiri militants whom you send from across the border...tell them to live in the present times and to live peacefully.

Go to those muslim fanatics who wish to spread Islam to the whole world....that is their sole aim in life. They are responsible for others being forced to behave like they do.

sadna: i don`t know if i can answer your question about the reformation being a topdown phenomenon...this is where I am the fuzziest about church history...if you`re referring to the fact that it began within the religious hierarchy (Martin Luther was a monk, and not a humble one at that) then yes, i guess it could be seen as a topdown phenomenon. The Northern Renaissance (the humanists who preceded ML) and Martin Luther, of course wanted to `reform` within Catholicism itself, but their ideas against the growing corruption within the Catholic Church were considered heretical, and ML was excommunicated.

With reference to my previous post – words are definitely mine and not Tabari’s. According to him the number of Ghazwat is 27 (some sources say 26) and Sarayas is 35. There are plenty of instances, which would back up my claim. Most students of Islamic History would not have a problem accepting that all Ghazwas and Sarayas that took place till Badr were an attempt by the Muslims to raid the caravans of the Quraish. I would be happy to provide instances from al-Tabari if needed. Only thing is that like most of us we have jobs and lives interfere in our ability to sit on Chowk. Moreover I don’t have al-Tabari in electronic form where I could cut and paste it. So I have to do it the laborious way, which is difficult as my typing speed leaves a lot to be desired. Anyways here it goes.


Reference: The History of al-Tabari published by SUNY.

Volume VIII – Page 35 – “The Expedition against the Banu Qurayzah”

“The Messenger of God went out into the marketplace of Medina and had trenches dug in it, then he sent for them and had them beheaded in those trenches. They were brought out to him in groups….. They numbered 600 to 700 – the largest estimate says they were between 800 and 900….. The affair continued until the Messenger of God had finished with them” - Page 39 – The Messenger of God sent Sa’d b. Zayd with some of the captives from the Banu Qurayzah to Najd, and in exchange for them he purchased horses and arms. The Messenger of God selected for himself from their women Rayhanah bt. Amr, a woman from the Banu Amr b. Qurayzah, and she remained his concubine, when he predeceased her, she was still in his possession. The Messenger of God offered to marry her and impose the curtain (hijab) on her, but she said, “ Messenger of God, rather leave me in your possession (as a concubine), for it is easier for me and for you.” So he did so.”


Volume VIII – Page 51 – “The Expedition against the Banu al-Mustaliq”

“God put the Banu al-Mustaliq to flight and killed some of them. He gave their children, women and property to the Messenger of God as booty – God gave them to him as spoil.”


Volume VIII – Page 96 – “The Expedition against the Banu Fuzarah”

“After he (Zayd b.Harithah) recovered from his wounds the Messenger of God sent him with an army against the Banu Fuzarah. He met them in Wadi al-Qura and inflicted heavy casualties on them. Qays b. killed Masadah b. and took Umm Qirfah prisoner. He also took one of her daughters and Abdallah b. Masadah prisoner (Her name was Fatimah bt. Rabiah. She was married to Malik b. She was a very old woman). Zayd ordered Qays to kill Umm Qirfah, and he killed her cruelly. He tied each of her legs with a rope and tied the two ropes to two camels, and they split her in two.”

Volume VIII – Page 117 – “The Expedition to Khaybar”

“The Messenger of God began taking herds and property bit by bit and conquering Khaybar fortress by fortress. … Next was al-Qamus … the Messenger of God took some of its people captive, including Safiyyah bt. Abi wife of Kinanah… The Messenger of God chose Safiyyah for himself…. The captives of Khaybar were divided among the Muslims….Page 122 – Kinanah who had the treasure of the Banu al-Nadir, was brought to the Messenger of God, who questioned him, but he denied knowing where it was…. Then the Messenger of God commanded that the ruin should be dug up, and some of the treasure was extracted from it. Then he asked him for the rest of it. Kinanah refused to surrender it, so the Messenger of God gave orders concerning him to al-Zubayr, saying, “Torture him until you root out what he has.” Al-Zubayr kept twirling his firestick in his breast until Kinanah almost expired, then the Messenger of God gave him to Muhammad b. Maslamah, who beheaded him to avenge his brother Mahmud b. Maslamah.”

ana #83
My knowledge of church history is nearly nonexistent, so sorry if I am wayoff the mark. Wasn`t Henry VIII too, an example of splitting the church from the top, though that wasn`t a `reformation`, it was a successful attempt at a getting a sizeable section of Christians to deny moral authority to the Pope. Though I am ignorant of what effect this had on the `diversification`/reexamination of Christian interpretation.

PS: I mean `episode of Henry VIII was an example`

# 84

Messenger of God.....



Open your eyes, my friends....

If change or religious development in Islam is traditionally brought about through the combined mechanics of
a. a grassroots movement
b. winning over ulema or learned religious people
c. winning favor with those with influence

then a. explains the need for madarassas. Unless you propagate your POV on doctrine in madarassas, how would you get yourself grassroots followers?

b. explains the funding and proliferation of mosques of a given persuasion. Again, unless one has mosques to preach one`s verison of doctrine, how to get the word out?

c. explains the symbiotic relationship between rulers and religious ideologues. Rulers donot mind using religious institutions to exert extra influence on citizens. Again, why would ideologues propagating a particular religious point of view refuse to leverage the rulers patronage and politics for the greater glory of their own cause.

Now since religious `moderates` or `liberals` prefer to confine their activities to the secular sphere, the above three methods of mechanics of change in religious sphere are left solely for the use of the `nonmoderates` .

If one can roughly compare Protestant Christianity in the US(for example), the mechanics for religious propagation seem to be similar. Someone with a pet Christian doctrine starts a church, builds up his religious institution, solicits/attracts followers, expands his institution and its membership and hence expands his influence.

The difference could be, perhaps the church doesnot run schools with the same fervor due to functioning in a different environment, that the church doesnot challenge the suzereignty of rule of law and the Constitution, and lastly doesnot expect to gain influence through intercession of the state, rather the church has to sink or swin like any other free marketeer.

(end of ramble) :)

Ralph,

re: 81; Good idea!

no-more-a-slave

You may like to read an Article ` An Obituary on Caste as a system` in Economic and Political Weekly edition of Feb. 1-7 2003

www.epw.org.in

Regards

Tehsin Abbasi, Bhatai, Urstruly: Gentlemen! gentlemen! gentlemen!!
Let me ask one question from all of you together.
Do you believe that the Islamic message is reflected in (a) the Quran, or (b) the actions of the prophet, or (c) both?

IF THE ANSWER IS (a), then your discussion is irrelevant as a practical guide to the message of Islam.

IF THE ANSWER IS (b) or (c), then I have the following questions to ask of you individually:
Mr. Abbasi: If the message of Islam (as reflected in the prophets actions as you describe them) is indeed one of cruelty towards captors, as your post indicates, then (unless you are in favor of cruelty towards those within your power) I hope you will have the intellectual honesty to denounce Islam and declare yourself a secular person.
Mr. Urstruly: If the message of Islam (and I assume you disagree with what Mr. Abbasi describes) is indeed reflected in the actions of the prophet as you think, could you please identify the biography of the prophet that you take guidance from? And if you take guidance from this biography, i hope you will have the intellectual honesty to dispense of the Quran as being irrelevant, and declare your selected biography as being your holy book, you Bible or Quran, so to speak.
Mr. Bhatai: No questions for you sir. I think you have so far just been asking questions like me.

d`souza #82 you write ``Tell me ...who gives you guys a right to always rant and rave about the Islamic glorious past... day in and day out but totally reject all other religions and maek fun of them``
You will not find even a single sentence from me, from all the posts I have written on all the boards on chowk, that rants and raves, or even mildly squeaks about, the Islamic glorious past.
This proves you are IQ-challenged, you are also delusional. Just like jay.
You then respond to my charge that your argument to ``do as the mullahs do`` is the dumbest argument I have heard by simply throwing back my words at me by calling me a stupid person. I called your argument dumb, and provided you with a reason.
This proves you have the emotional development of a 2 year old. Just like jay and arjun.
The rest of your lengthy post would no doubt reveal similar interesting features of your personality, but I would have to charge you for performing a full analysis, so I will stop here.
I now have a complaint to all Indians: Why do you send all these morons to chowk? Is it because India IS full of grown up men who have the emotional and intellectual development of a psychotic moron??
If I did not know many fine Indians in real life, and had people like you (and Jay and arjun and not-a-slave and Ralph and countless others I have seen coming to chowk trying to insult pakistanis while trying to pretend India was the land of milk and honey), to go by only, I would swear that India is indeed populated by intellectual and emotional retards. Luckily, that is not the case and I have had the opportunity to have many fine people from India as colleagues. So there is hope yet for the south asian neighborhood.

Ralph #81

I would like to field both of your questions - however, I need sometime to compile a precise and concise answer.

tahmad32

I have read ``Seerat-un-Nabi`` (Biography of Prophet (pbuh)) written by Allama Shibli Nomani & Allama Syed Suleiman Nadvi (may God bless their souls) several times. First time when I read this 6-7 volume compilation, I was probably 13 and for the next 10-12 years I read it several times. This is one complete work on his biography that I have read - in addition there are innumerable sources I have consulted on a certain topic discussing his life by several authors - english & urdu - to seek answer on a particular question.

I did not understand the idea in the rest of your post.

#78 harimau

``no castes in islam``

that is incorrect. I saw tv news reel, where a muslim farmer is complaining about ``khan(s)`` getting all the benefits because they are
``upper castes``;

Besides, you have gender apartheid in islam, state sponsored apartheid on non-believers within islamic countries(all you have to see is a pakistan passport application in the pakistan embassy website which
specifically demands from muslims that there is only one god and says in so many words that ahmedias are not muslims--don`t ask me why the form is stupid to begin with);
for all the sweet talk from islam re sexes being equal and how they have equal rights, it is fine and dandy to have things said; when in reality, the laws are totally sqewed against women in islam-in inheritance rights, legal rights(testimony worth half etc).

i am not saying that similar practises exist in Hinduism. atleast it is not institutional sponsored. An individual hindu may or may not discriminate.
Govt atleast on paper doesn`t discriminate. In islamic countries, the opposite is true. govt by design discriminates against non-muslims which in itself is a higher form of casteism.

Urstruly #94 Thanks for responding to my second question, and clearly you have read much about the life of the prophet.
I think my first question was a fairly straightforward one, and I think I made quite explicit the purpose of that question. That is, if one indeed considers the Quran to be source of guidance to muslims (without requiring any supplementary reading, explanation, ``wahis`` and so on) then this discussion on the prophets actions as described by Tehsin and as contradicted by you are (as I wrote) ``irrelevant as a practical guide to the message of Islam. ``
Of course, the life of the prophet can be studied as one would study any other history (and since he came much later than Moses and Abraham, there is certainly a lot richer history to be studied here). BUT NOT as a source of religious instruction.
We are then left to focus on the Quran, and the best way to understand it. And that is where this article by Mr. Talib becomes interesting.
I still hope to get answers from the other two chowk posters to whom I raised this question as well.