Islam in Crisis (Part2)

I agree totally with Talibs sentiments.

Wonder why people from other religions too do not analyse their own.
Christianity, Buddhism, Sikhism, Hinduism or the Jews are not perfect either.

That would make for a wonderful dialogue - leading to the extinction of religion, would nt it?

;-)

Rashid Talib: I have read with interest this Part II of your article. Perhaps the most significant sentence that you provide (as a quote) is the following:
``the spirit of the Quranic legislation exhibits an obvious direction towards the progressive embodiment of the fundamental human values of freedom and responsibility in fresh legislation, nevertheless the actual legislation of the Quran had partly to accept the then existing society as a term of reference. ``
If once accepts this, and my understanding of the Quran (for whatever it is worth, since I am no more and no less than an ordinary individual trying to understand the truth) also happens to be along these lines. One reason I have reached the same conclusion is as follows: While punishments are prescribed in the Quran, they represent the maximum punishment permissible, and are almost invariably supplemented with words to the effect that Allah loves Mercy.
The practical implications for today are as follows: The Criminal Penal Code that the British left behind is the product of a soceity (the upper calss Victorian Society in 19th century UK) that was more progressive than the society in which Quranic punishments were prescribed. Therefore (per the Quranic spirit of Mercy and Forgiveness) our aim should be to MOVE FURTHER IN THE DIRECTION OF RESPECT FOR INDIVIDUAL FREEDOM AND A MORE HUMANE SOCIETY. More speifically, this implies (a) abrogating the death sentence in Pakistan (my gut instinct is that one out of every two criminals executed in Pakistan is innocent e.g., even if one rejects the more philosophical case against the death sentence concerning the sanctity of all life, including that of a murderer); (b) improving prison conditions in Pakistan, and (c) enforcing properly the other other laws that do exist - laws that would put white collar criminals and the rich behind bars or subject to heavy fines, e.g.

jay #16 I see you refer to me (and poor temporal) as engaging in sophistry. I have always maintained that you are hate-filled individual who pretends that South Indian Brahmins are Gods are somehow a notch above the rest of the population of the sub-continent. I have also maintained that your hatred and obsession with Pakistan in particular has driven you to insanity.
Does this sound like sophistry to you??? Rest assured I mean exactly what I write.

Kerala favours Indian citizenship to Pak nationals: Antony
- -
Thiruvananthapuram: The general feeling was to accord Indian citizenship to the 395 Pakistani nationals, ``overstaying`` in Kozhikode and Malappuram districts of Kerala, on humanitarian grounds, Chief Minister A K Antony told the State Assembly today.

However, a final stand on their future would be taken after evolving a political consensus, he said. The state would convey to the Centre its stand on Kerala-origin Pakistani nationals after an all-party meeting here on March six, he added.

Replying to a calling attention motion of Mr R Balakrishna Pillai (KC-B), he said all were in favour of allowing them to stay here as they were forced to obtain Pakistani passport to return to India while working in Karachi exactly at the time of partition. Having migrated temporarily to Karachi for want of jobs, they used to frequent Kerala even after independence to call on their kith and kin and finaly settled down here.

All of them were born and educated in Kerala and a majority of them had already crossed 70 years of age. However, they were declared as ``Pakistani nationals`` under section 99 (2) of the Indian Citizens Act because of being holders of Pakistani passport. They were allowed to stay in Kerala as they did not pose any threat to Indian security.

``They deserve sympathy as most of them are now old and disease stricken,`` Mr Antony said, adding that Union Home Minister L K Advani had promised to take a sympathetic view on the issue. A meeting of the MPs from Kerala, on February four here, also wanted their case considered favourably on humanitarian grounds.
/
// A christian chief minister in a hindu majority state asking for the pakistani passport holders to be made indian citizens. India is a crazy place. That reminds me of pakistan, in the year that Abdus salam got the nobel prize, the president of pakistan made the denigration of ahmadias in the pass port application forms which all of the pakistanis have signed from the past 25 years. Why did zia do it, to honour the religion, ahmadia to which abdus slam belonged.

Excellent work but I have a question and anyone from the readers or the writer himself can answer:

Rasheed Talib wrote (in part 1) that reconstructing an educational system (which perhaps rivals or overtakes the Madrassa system) is too big a job to take on for any Muslim country today. He didn`t clarify the reasons for this impossibility. Is it too difficult politically or is the required money not there?

-k

Saima #3,

Responsibility for the situation in pakistan completely rests with the educated of pakistan, they are the agents of change. But they have betrayed pakistan, they are no different from the uneducated, the so called mullahs.
Take for example tahmed and temporal on chowk. They state that islam and jihad does not permit the killing of innocents. Then the mullah says kills the non-innocents, they are kafirs across the border. Tahed and mullah are telling the same, one is masked in the sofistry and double meaning. The ilks of tahmed can never say on the chowk that muslims should not be killing others. That would be against what they have learned in early childhood. It is that persistance of the islamic education that is killing pakistan.

Rasheed Talib saheb -- ah our Holy Quran -- it`s our hayat/life -- and it`s our maut/death --

and we the Muslims are happily imprisoned inside our Quranic Walls -- and happy that -- we can`t get out --

keoN haiN khush hum ba qaid-e maut-o hayat
hai aisee bhee bey-busee keya hai

TIme to get rid of that -- beybusee --

thanks -- temporal is right -- u need to elaborate -- write more on Quran

nazarhayatkhan saheb:

yours are exactly -- 10 good REASONS --

why every GOOD Muslim should only RECITE the Holy Quran -- to HEAT up his or her cold HEART--

but AVOID -- the translation/the `turjumaa` --

lest --

it BURNS down his or her sensitive BRAIN --

of course if he or she has -- one.

http://www.counterpunch.org/hoskote02152003.html
#8
temporal sahib
this article is written by Ranjit Hoskote, Assistant Editor of The hindu Bombay, and seems to make a lot of sense..

some excerpts:
``The denial of contemporaneity to the Islamic world can sometimes proceed from the best intentions, as when invited experts cite and discuss the Holy Koran and the Sayings of the Prophet as the ultimate and armatural texts for present-day political choices. This approach creates the impression that Islamic civilisation has made no further contribution to the history of thought since the 7th century; it also negates the role of secular philosophies in the evolution of the Muslim or Arab political consciousness. For instance, this writer cannot recall a single reference, in mainstream-channel discussions during the last 17 months, to Ali Shariati, the political visionary and critic of consumption capitalism whose teachings provided the stimulus for the first, 1978 phase of the Iranian Revolution. Or to the historian of science and gnosis, Seyyed Hossein Nasr; or the Egyptian secular revolutionary, Gamal Abdel Nasser, or the Algerian socialists Ahmed Ben Bella and Houari Boumediene. The Libyan leader Muammar al-Gaddafi is usually mentioned only in the context of the Lockerbie case or dismissed as a maverick; his contribution to post-colonial praxis goes unremarked. ``

This is a very good article, and I for one, fully support whatever the author is stating.

It is about time, constructive arguments were placed forward about Islam. The secularatic brigades` ``Islam is the source of all evil in Muslim countries`` and the mullah brigades` ``Islam is the solution to every problem`` arguments are useless and self-centered.

Islam, to me, is neither the problem, nor the solution. Those (like myself) who like it should follow it. And those who don`t, should follow something else. But I don`t think people have a right to badmouth it. And no one has the right to force people to become religious against their wishes, and no one has the right to force people to become secular or athiest against their wishes either.

I cannot see how the exact words of the Quran could not have been for a pariticular time and place. It is so obvious, that it should be re-interprated again and again, as the world changes. It is an abstract book, and is supposed to be interpreted in spirit, not in syllable. For its time (seventh century), it was extremely enlightened and progressive, even from a syllable interpretation.

The problem today with the Islamic world is that it has no role model country. Of the fifty-five or so Islamic countries, none has been able to progress (Malaysia being the furthust ahead). So others have no one to follow. Is this because they share the common factor of Islam, i.e. if they immediately became athiest or secular, would they suddenly start progressing? I doubt it.

If the above were true, historically there would not have been a single Muslim nation which progressed, while remaining Muslim. The problem has more to do with low education rates, poor leaderships, colonial legacies, corruption etc. For example, I think if Pakistan can have fifteen years of sustained honest leadership, it will progress immensely. Economic progress is based on good economic policies, not on Islam or secularism.

I think the Islamic world will turn around, not through individuals discarding or clinging overly closely to the Quran. Infact, individuals re-interprating the Quran will not make too much of a difference either (though they should be encouraged). It will progress, when one Islamic country somehow makes it into the first world, and thus becomes a role model of the Islamic world in thought, ideas, culture, economy, philosophy, ethics, militarily, religion, in the UN etc.

Huntington calls the above, a ``core state.`` In his opinion, in the Islamic civilization, the four potential ones are - Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan and Turkey. In my opinion, Malaysia will be first one.

The best ever Introduction to Qura`n written by any one. If one wishes to understand the book one ought to know how to read it. I hope it answers almost all the questions raised by the author:

http://www.iiu.edu.my/deed/quran/understand.html

Rashid:

(it may be a pointless exercise since you do not interact here)

first a general comment…this ‘note’ as you call it is not as well written as the first one…that one was concise, precise and a beauty to read…this one has a few errors and moves jerkily…khair..moving along…

on qur’an you did not mention efforts to put it in chronological order….while you did mention that even the harshest critics are agreed that it is ‘unchanged’…there is something to be said about the chronology of revelations…

…recall a hyderabadi muslim hashim ali was working on it as well as perhaps n j dawood…that may have altered the arrangement and contents of surahs perhaps…but would have aided in the interpretation…

…as i wrote somewhere recently…and let me hasten to add this is my personal view only….the message revealed through qur’an and muhammed (saw) was aimed at elevating a segment of those arabs in that era… an evolutionary nudge in the right direction…and in the last 1500 years those who accepted the faith should have continued that process of ‘evolution’ from ‘aadmi to insaan’….it is unfortunate that the theologians have become ‘peer-e-tasma-paa’ and want no part of this evolutionary process…in fact that are the very regressionary forces…explicitly or implicitly aided by those of us who profess to be ‘educated’ but uninvolved…thus issues that divide us…like mutah, slavery, hijab, marriages, rights of women etc. that should have continued to ‘evolve’ over the past millennia and half have been made the sacrificial goat in their (theologians) hedgemonistic rivalry…

…am grateful to chowk and you for providing this space where we can discuss these issues without rancour…like of old, as you wrote…”Remember, while this sensitive question was being debated between the Mutazilites and their rival theologians of the Asharite school, no objection was raised to suggest that this was apostasy, heresy or blasphemy.”

rgds,

t

I would like to applaud Mr. Talib`s work in this space. I would also like to draw attention to his article on ``Creation of Hindu ``Madrasas`` which appeared in December, 2002 on Chowk where he described some of the nonsense being perpetrated by hindu extremists in india.

http://63.194.130.82/cgi-bin/show_article.cgi?aid=00001726&channel=civic%20center&start=0&end=9&chapter=1&page=1

re:nazarhayatkhan

What surprises me is how come so many muslims believe that already--if you ask a common person in karachi about this they will say, o times were different in Arabia--and laugh over the idea of four wives today. However the love their religion--and hate anybody putting it down. They feel strongly about political issues related to Islam. The common person is not an Islamist of any sort, than who are the extremists and why do they want to recreate 1400bc? what fears are driving that decision in the face of other alternatives. Can it be that they are using religious feeling to unite on common fears about the pace of global change? do the environmentalists, peaceniks and the fundamentalists share something? a terrible fear of modern life?

Ref Jay #1

I really have no words to describe the courage of the Train Ticket Examiner who fined the Minister.

The Rule of Law is supreme in Kerala. But you expect no less when you have an educated population aware of its rights and an administration that doesn`t play favorites.

Will Biharis take note of the above incident?

Talib Sahib - you are being very polite and careful.

Islam`s golden period was until 8th Century when it was being continuosly reintrepreted in the context of the changing realities.

After 8th Century, reintrepretation (Ijtihad) stopped. I do not why. Since then, the Muslims are in a constant state of confusion. The conflict berwen logic and scripture.

If the sprit is not taken and exact details are to be followed, it will be very difficult for a Muslim to explain the following:

a) Why slave girls are not only allowed but children can be also be gotten through them?

b) Why man can marry four wives simultaneously?

c) Why a woman witness is half as compared to man?

e) Why the daughters get half the inheritance?

f) Why the man is permitted to beat wife?

g) Why the prophet was permitted 11 wives?

h) Why the prayer or fasting timings do not cater for North pole?

i) Why the man is promised Hoors in heaven but no such award is mentioned for women?

j) Why all the good things in heaven like rivers of milk, fruit gardens etc will attract the desert dwellers but may not attract dwellers living in higher latitudes?

H) Why a woman can not be Imam which is being intrepreted by the radicals that she can not be head of the state?

and so on

Actually, there is no choice but to take the scripture as a guidance and follow its priciples rather than to force the implementation of the given details in a vastly different environment than the one existed in the 6th Century.