Islam in Crisis (Part2)

nasahji,

{{if i may digress from the subject a little -- shanker da -- why most of the subcontinental pysicians in private practice have their wives as their office managers?}}

Physicians are too busy to worry about matters like ``is the patient paying his bill? or what insurance co to bill it to``?

The first year I started pvt practice, I was working very hard & 75% of my patients got away for free; cos I had an office manager who was very..er..``philanthropic`` with my fees. Some insurance companies send the check to the pt & not the doctor. I learnt (later on) that its the doctor`s responsibility to collect fees from pts-- up front. So, in the end some patients started getting PAID to see me & were coolly pocketting that money!

Most doctors in pvt practice do ``pro-bono`` work for the poor at the Community hospital...but in our ``dhandha``, we expect to be paid (but curiously are too ``bashful`` to ask the pt for money ourselves):) Y`see, we doctors are NEVER trained in the ``business`` of medicine in med school or residency; so a naieve doctor in pvt practice can work hard & make peanuts.

Ahh..but not my dear feminazi wife (after all...its a well known secret in middle class Indians; that its the WOMEN who control the money...shhh...we are too macho to admit it!):) So, when the Mrs learnt that people are unfairly getting rich with MY money; she stepped up to the batting crease & whipped the business into shape. She is trained as a Respitory therapist & was always career oriented. But she was burnt out ``slinging sputum``...so she decided on a change of career (Thank God)!:)

However, I think the most important reason why doctors` wives become office manager is the flexible hours it provides. For instance, the wife can go to the office after the kids are gone to school--spend the morning to make sure everybody is billed correctly & the insurers are sending checks on a timely basis--& then come home before the kids are back from school. Its a PERFECT job for mothers with kids.

harimou,
#107

Hahahahahah!!!
I baited a big fish & toooo bad I was busy this past week not to have the pleasure of frying your achoot brainless butt.....

One day, Harimou the idiot scientist, wanted to experiment on a frog.

a) He made a loud noise beside the frog & the frog jumped...
b) then he cut off all the 4 legs of the frog..
c)then he made the loud noise again...this time the frog didnt flinch

So Harimou concluded: ``if you cut off a frog`s legs; it becomes DEAF!!!``

See..thats what happens when an idiot is educated...he can surf the net OK...but his idiocy doesnt change & is BEYOND help!

OK ..now a POINT -BY-POINT flogging...that too by a JANITARIOL shrink...go dip whats left of your brains in the Ganges..in shame...

{{{Scientists found that brain activity during REM sleep begins in the pons, a structure in the brainstem, and neighboring midbrain regions. The pons sends signals to the thalamus and to the cerebral cortex, which is responsible for most thought processes. It also sends signals to turn off motor neurons in the spinal cord, causing a temporary paralysis that prevents movement.``}}}

Yup exactly right...

Here`s your RETARDED logic: if skeletal muscles are paralysed, the penis becomes flaccid...hahaha!!

{{{Please explain how, if the muscles in the body are body is immobilized during REM, how one can get an erection.}}}

You MORON...an erection isnt mediated by SKELETAL MUSCLES! The bulk of the penis is composed of very specialised tissue called corpora cavernosa. When this tissue is engorged with blood (ie increased blood flow by dilated arterioles) it swells up, becomes firm & rigid. Now, thats basic physiology of an erection...

I guess YOUR penis is contolled by skeletal muscles...every morning Harimou does 10 pushups with his penis to strenghten its ..er ..erectile power!...Hahaha!!

{{The early morning erection has more to do with the pressure of a full bladder than with REM sleep}}

Hahaha! OK OK..I`m going to give you a link where SIMPLE answers are given so even idiots like you can understand. PLEASE PLEASE do not read medical journals...it only exposes your ABSOLUTELY stupidity...

http://www.talkaboutsleep.com/basics/questions101/chapter3.htm

{{I have maintained all along that you are more likely to be a janitor in a psychiatric hospital than the doctor you claim to be. I said in a recent post that you cannot read and understand articles in medical journals. }}

Are you QUITE sure you want me to respond to that?!
Maybe I should have added that to my CV when Pfizer invited me to join their Physician Advisory Panel to study Viagra in clinical Psychiatric Practice..

excuse digression please
------
sattar2
can u please email me at annythedud@yahoo.com ASAP.
Thanks

#102 by sameerJB on February 26, 2003 9:27am PT
[``The sex with wife is holy according to Islam - referred to as sunnat meaning that since Muhammad did it, so do you. However, either because of local exaggerations of subcontinent Muslims or to extend further control over the lives of Muslims, sex with wives also have to abide by certain rules such as not seeing vagina, sex in the dark and missionary positioin only. The curiosity about exploring sex is not appreciated or allowed.`` ]

Damn! Does it mean that I will not be let in the Paradise. My 72 virgins...

shanker ji --

there is not much difference between the Hindus and the Muslim households -- SEX is a taboo subject -- for the middle class families of both communities --

DESPITE ur Kamasutras, and ur `penis god` --

and DESPITE -- our sex galore with four wives -- plus

a very special book of ours -- called `Behishti Zewar` -- literally translated as `heavenly jewels` that is given to the just married daughters when they are going away with their husbands -- the first time.

there are two chapters in this book on sex and the varieties of sexual acts -- that will put to shame some of the most learned authors of the Kamasutras even --

now the most interesting part of the descriptions are -- not that they are written so explicitly -- they are written under the guise of the sexual practices that are TABOO -- will BREAK the religious code of Ablution -- the Islamic `WAZOO` -- for a WOMAN! -- if a man -- NOT essentially her husband -- does that to her!

And this ``Behishti Zewar`` book was written by a very learned Maulana -- some hundred years ago -- ONLY for the eyes of the Muslim Women -- as an encyclopedia of family life and children rearing manual -- according to Islamic sharia -- that book was a must as part of the dowry

by the way -- that Behishiti Zewar was one `heavenly` book -- that was most sought after -- not by the girls -- but by the girl-deprived Muslim boys at the prime of their adolescent life...:-)

shankar #106 The Quran does prohibit adultery (although, if the adulterers apologize, it calls for letting them go their way without any punishment - a part that is forgotten by proponents of stone throwing). And I think it is for the same reason that you wrote disapprovingly of this chap who wants cheeseburgers with his french fries: it is unfair to the spouse. I dont think any society looks up to a man who cheats on his wife. So, muslims are not really unique in this.

In terms of religious ethos, it does seem to me that the ``Abrahamic religions`` of christianity, judaism and islam tend to be more puritanical (or, more accurately, uptight and confused) about matters of sex than other religions. This may have been a reaction to the Canaanite culture that the first of these three religions, judaism, completely destroyed. The Canaanites were very much into fertility rites. The christians and muslims then continued this process of pushing sex under the rug. Of course sex keeps popping its ugly head for the poor muslims and christians (celibate christian priests going after little boys, muslim sufis sublimating their sexual urgings by making a nonphysical God the object of their passion). So, there is much to be said, I think, for checking out the acrobatics on Kama Sutra artwork. Keeps sex nice and simple, and avoids the confusion and hang-ups caused by pretending that human reproductive system does not exist.

````I relayed this incident to my wife (who is also my office manager),``(shanker)

if i may digress from the subject a little -- shanker da -- why most of the subcontinental pysicians in private practice have their wives as their office managers?

tahmed,

{{Damn! There goes another piece of useful evidence a man could use when suggesting more sex. :-) }}

Yaay!! And all this time I thought only hindu men had to beg their wives...I mean....``suggest more sex``...tsk tsk..the things we poor men have to do to satisfy our carnal needs. Sometimes I think when women talk about their ``famous`` headaches; its a code word for their husbands to take a cold shower before going to bed:(

One of my patients has a very pretty wife AND she`s good natured...& the idiot is having an affair! He`s bought both his wife AND his girlfriend to the office in separate sessions (the 2 women dont know about each other!). The irony is that the girlfriend (in my book) is pretty ugly.

I asked him (in a session-- when he came in alone)...why in the WORLD would he do such a thing?! He gave me the most incredible answer to explain this unfortunate situation. He shrugged his shoulder & said..``listen, doc, if a guy eats filet mignon everyday; sometimes he yearns for a greasy cheeseburger; OK!``

I didnt know whether to get up & smack him (he needed that more than any pill I could give him) or to laugh out aloud. Later on, when I relayed this incident to my wife (who is also my office manager), she asked me why I DIDNT smack him?! I said ``but... but... hon, he`s my patient; how can I do that?!`` Dunno why, then the Ayatollah-goddess-feminazi spouse of mine said...``men!!!`` & then added....``I think I`m beginning to have a headache!...``

But seriously, tahmedji, I know you dont like generalisations, & ...REALLY...I`m not asking these questions to make fun of Islam---we dont have the right to stand in judgement of ANY culture`s/religious taboos..or the lack , thereof.... BUT....I laugh at hindu parents who are reticent about talking about sex with their teenage children. Its stupid. First of all, the Govt of India FREELY advertises condoms & even gives them away at every panwallah dukaan for 5 paisa; & FREE in govt hospitals & railway stations (at least in the 70`s; when I was living there).. NEVERMIND that they make great baloons to toss around in cricket matches.

If hindus worship a penis god, its idiotic for them to be close-mouthed about sex. Then their children learn about it from friends. Damn, at one time, I convinced my younger brother that masterbation causes hernea (cos he needed hernea surgery) , until my dad put a kaibash to it. Fortunately, my father is a doctor & he sat all his sons down & explained the facts of life. Dunno why mom excused herself & said she had to talk to someone on the phone, while Dad started with ``..now there are these 2 bees..``

Besides, hindus made sex into an ART form--if anyone has read the Kama Sutra or seen the sculptures in Khajurao. When I had gone to Khajurao, we Indians would snicker in front of every scultpture; while foreign tourists were seriously studying them & turning their glossy brochures every which way to ...er.. figure out how it is possible to get into various ..er..positions.

You gotta admit--sex SHOULD be an art! Its a natural human physiological instinct. Well....so is taking a dump or pee; but thats an ``unfortunate`` necessity---& no matter how satisfying a ``good`` dump feels , first thing in the morning---sex is a LOT more enjoyable. Anybody who denies that OUGHT to see a shrink:)

I`m naturally curious what Islam has to say about the issue of sex. If I go by what I`ve learnt about Islam, on Chowk--its a code of conduct, about everything one does in life. Now, if anybody should snicker because its ``odd`` to them; I dont feel a muslim ought to be offended--its because we have to be aware of cultural similiarities & differences. Lord knows, the LAST person who is qualified to stand in judgement of Islam is an oily brahmin like me:(

So can we have a slightly thick skin if we discuss such an important topic?

Androscoggin,

Dunno why, I got a sense you were trying to scold me for my impertinent remarks. Please understand, I`m not making this a hindu-muslim thing. To put it very bluntly; BOTH hindus & muslims generally dont get good grades in following the ``rules`` of sex that their religion suggests. In fact, I dont think most hindus have a CLUE what Hinduism is...(including this rotten brahmin); other than learned types like Dr Shridhar...

Lemme ask you, is it somehow considered ``bad manners`` to discuss sex or be a little raunchy in ``mixed company?!`` Thats the attitude even older Americans (the WW2) generation has. Then they wonder why their 15 yr old granddaughter got pregnant?!

BTW, this Bangladeshi girl was born & raised in the US. Her doctor parents (who live in Detrioit) sent her to the best pvt school & college money could buy. At the same time, she was sent to an Bangladeshi Islamic ?school in Detroit; so she wouldnt lose out on her mother culture/religion. Her parents are very decent, devout muslims & she is one too. EXCEPT this girl (who works in Dow Chemical, now) has been living with her boyfriend (who wants to convert) to Islam ..but they are not ``ready`` to get married. Talk about ABCD!!

Ref Ashit Urshit Dickshit, W.D. #101

[tahmed,

{{An early morning erection is a sign that you dont get enough of it. My sympathies}}

Men get erections during the REM phase of sleep. Its a natural physiological response. Since the last phase of a normal sleep pattern is usually an REM phase (most of the time); men wake up with an erection--ESP young men. Your ``theory``, I`m afraid, is an ``old wives tale``..er, no pun intended:) ]

I have maintained all along that you are more likely to be a janitor in a psychiatric hospital than the doctor you claim to be. I said in a recent post that you cannot read and understand articles in medical journals.

The proof was not hard to come by.

From

http://www.sfn.org/content/Publications/BrainBriefings/rem_sleep.html

``Scientists found that brain activity during REM sleep begins in the pons, a structure in the brainstem, and neighboring midbrain regions. The pons sends signals to the thalamus and to the cerebral cortex, which is responsible for most thought processes. It also sends signals to turn off motor neurons in the spinal cord, causing a temporary paralysis that prevents movement.``

From

http://www.epub.org.br/cm/n02/mente/rem_i.htm

``In the REM sleep, the individual seems to be more awaken than asleep, however the body (except for the eye muscles) is immobilized.``

Please explain how, if the muscles in the body are body is immobilized during REM, how one can get an erection.

The early morning erection has more to do with the pressure of a full bladder than with REM sleep.

You can always get back in the good graces of Pakistanis by kissing their collective a$$ on Chowk. Your posing as a doctor will be forgiven.

Oh, my God! Don`t tell me your degree is in Unani Medicine. Your degree then would fit your personality well: BUMS (Bachelor of Unani Medical Science).

The Dean of the Daring Democrats -- ladies and gentlemen -- the NEXT PRESIDENT of the United States -- Former Senator from Vermont -- Dr. Howard Dean:

````On Friday and Saturday, seven of the eight announced Democratic presidential candidates (all but Sen. John Kerry of Massachusetts, who is still recovering from prostate cancer surgery) showed up at the Hyatt Regency hotel on Capitol Hill to test-market their messages to the party faithful.

....at this point, there are at least two tiers of candidates.

In the first tier, there are Sens. Kerry, Joe Lieberman (Conn.), and John Edwards (N.C.), and Rep. Richard Gephardt (Mo.).

The second tier would be led by former Vermont Sen. Howard Dean, and also include the Rev. Al Sharpton, former Sen. Carol Moseley-Braun and Rep. Dennis Kucinich.

One of the things the first tier has in common - other than proven abilities to raise cash, national profiles, and first-rate campaign staffs - is that they all supported the resolution last year authorizing President Bush to use military force against Iraq.

In their speeches, these candidates seemed almost apologetic about their positions that Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein must be disarmed by force if necessary.

``Now I know that there are a lot of you who don`t agree with me about this,`` Edwards, son of a mill worker, said, relegating his Iraq position to a few words seemingly tacked on to the end of his speech. ``I do believe that Saddam Hussein needs to be disarmed, including, if necessary, the use of military force. He has chemical and biological weapons. He`s used them in the past. We cannot let him have nuclear capability.``

Silence.

Lieberman, who sought to establish his bona fides by talking about his travels to Mississippi in 1964 to fight for the right of blacks to vote, said of Iraq: ``Now, my friends, to protect the safety of the American people and the credibility of the United Nations, Iraq must disarm - peacefully if possible, by force if necessary. Saddam Hussein`s weapons of mass destruction must be destroyed sooner than later, because sooner or later, if we do not, they will be used against us.``

Silence.

Gephardt, son of a milk truck driver, jumped into the Iraq issue near the beginning of his speech, seemingly to just get it out of the way: ``Before I start, I want to address the question of foreign policy in Iraq, because I know it`s on everyone`s mind. I believe we must disarm Saddam Hussein, and I`m proud that I wrote the resolution. It helped lead the president to finally make his case to the United Nations.``

Silence. Well, almost. One fellow in the back yelled, ``shame.``

The other four candidates who spoke made their opposition to Bush`s policy on Iraq a major issue - and at least one of them will likely enter the first tier of candidates because of it, given the hardening opposition to a military strike among the party rank and file.
____________________________________________________
At this point, that candidate seems to be Dean, a physician with an unabashedly liberal message, strong speaking ability, good looks and aggressive style.
______________________________________________________
Dean`s speech on Friday was among the best of the bunch, if for no other reason than its audacity.

He muttered only one or two lines of pleasantries before getting right to the punch, challenging the leadership of his party (and ostensibly two of the people, Lieberman and Gephardt) who spoke before him.

``What I want to know is why in the world the Democratic Party leadership is supporting the president`s unilateral attack on Iraq …

What I want to know is why are Democratic Party leaders supporting tax cuts …

What I want to know is why we`re fighting in Congress about the patients` bill of rights when the Democratic Party ought to be standing up for health care for every single American man, woman and child in this country …

What I want to know is why our folks are voting for the president`s No Child Left Behind bill that leaves every child behind, every teacher behind, every school board behind and every property taxpayer behind

… (applause) …

I`m Howard Dean, and I`m here to represent the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party.``

Wild applause/standing ovation.
(Washington Post)

______________________________________________________
thanks Washington Post for introducing this brilliant Presidental Star to the American Public tired of fascist mediocrity -- being sold as Nazi patriotism --

thanks again WP

here is ONE physician -- who will VOTE for and work for the Physician Senator Howard Dean of Vermont -- any day any time rain or snow -- to be the next PRESIDENT of -- MY United States of America...

remember the name folks -- the next President of the United States -- senator Howard Dean of Vermont ....

shankar #101 Damn! There goes another piece of useful evidence a man could use when suggesting more sex. :-)
As for what muslims think - I think you are letting these hindu-muslim discussions, which see everything on the basis of religious differeces, get to you. Views on sex differ (and I think you will agree as a psychiatrist) not between hindus vs. muslims vs. jews vs.... They only differ between men (less romance, more action) vs. women (more romance, delayed reaction).

talking about sex/sex education among Muslims... this varies according to local customs and beliefs. where i grew up, in a muslim country, sex education was provided in biology classes. it was also discussed by religious teachers in detail. sex, as we all know, has to do with biology. on the other hand, the taboos, prohobitions, practices, and beliefs regarding sex can be attributed to culture and religion.

when it comes to thinking. as i recall, based on what my religious teachers taught me, there is no restriction in thinking. you can think about anything, that is what thought is for. what is prohibited is the acting on the thoughts where the act itself is prohibited. if you think about something and you don`t do it (act upon it) there is no harm done. after all, it is very human to think.

#101 by shankar on February 26, 2003 7:01am PT
tahmed,

I`m assuming thats one of the reasons muslims generally marry when theyre relatively young(er).



Is it considered somehow offensive or improper to talk about sex? I mean, how do muslims learn about the ``birds & the bees``?--esp muslim women? I`m asking you this cos I`m treating a Bangladeshi 22 yr old lady whose parents are both highly educated professionals. I was intrigued when she told me that her parents (devout muslims) never ever talked about sex with their children. Is this cultural or ``religious`` or somehow not considered ``appropriate``? or is she an exception to the rule?

In the same vein, (& I`m not being a disrespectful wise-ass; now)...is there some sort of an ``etiquette`` that Islam has prescribed when a man has more than one wife? Please dont call me a pervert; I dont mean to be. Just a ``professionally based`` question which I think every good shrink ought to be aware of:)

------------------------------------------------------------------
Shanker

NOT Noras father


Whether Hindu or Muslim or Christian or Parsi or German while studying in India no body has girl friend to unload on...........

Even here whether Bangladeshi or Indian or German immigrant no body gets sex education at home .First thing,.... in every American family for good reson Sex isnt a `Lakers game or Michael Jordan` that you can talk from locker room to dinner table REGARDLESS OF ETHNIC ORIGIN...


So put a lid to your curiosity of finding or inventing anything new.Many of my class mate married in India while in college.Many didnt .But none had sex i know b/c we talked all the time.

If your patient is conning you by familiar line ``iam poor deprived backward immigrant who dont have all that the white american has b.f. sex educationetc etc.``No children like to hear from there parent anywayze over school consellor & teachers .When one fouls up i they talk to gullible naive DESI like you b/c she knows you like the back of her hand.If you are dumb to have sexual contact in School & in Adolescent nothing can give you wisdom not even education.Like Umer M said Sameer may be Knowledgeable but never WISE !!!Knowing memorising lot of facts dontmake you wise to use it responsibly.

Shankar: My post was not exclusively about sex. Dont let Islam enter your underwear also implies the Islamic way of wiping ass to with left hand only and the limitation on the size of pubic hair.

I also specifically mentioned erectioin of unmarried men and to the best of my knowledge early morning erection has to do with reflux response of body waking up from sleep cycle and nothing to do with hormones level.

What has god or religion or civilization to do with such nonsensical intrusion into underwears?

Your understanding about early marriages among Muslims is right. It has in large part to do with stopping sinful thinking and erections. The sex with wife is holy according to Islam - referred to as sunnat meaning that since Muhammad did it, so do you. However, either because of local exaggerations of subcontinent Muslims or to extend further control over the lives of Muslims, sex with wives also have to abide by certain rules such as not seeing vagina, sex in the dark and missionary positioin only. The curiosity about exploring sex is not appreciated or allowed.

There is a paradox in considering sex as sunnat too. On one side it is highly recommended for married couples down to ejaculation within vagina and on the otherhand it breaks ablution and taking shower or washing with water with left hand is necessary before redoing wuzu. Once in the middle of wuzu for morning prayer, an erection or desiring to have sex again has to wait after mornng prayer. Best thing is to not wait too long after sex to pray to god. Waiting for an hour might mean double-mindedness - to choose between sex and fajar prayer.

With such intrusive injunctions and practices, ranging from thinking about sex for unmarried as a sin to stoning one to death for having sex before marriage, coupled with absolute taboo nature of sex as subject and empirical curiosity in society, most parents are in no position to teach their children even the basics of sex. Now, it has become possible to learn from media and society but parents are still reluctant to teach anything about it except the sinful nature of sex outside marriage bond.

Not only sex, masturbation is also considered lower category sin. The general feeling is that sin of masturbation is easily forgiven by god as well as it does not come under the classification of sex. I bet, the masturbatioin rate at madrassahs might be the lowest among that age group anywhere in the world because of the fear of commiting sin by thinking about sex and having erection as a resut. However, I knew fellow Muslims during teenage years who would masturbate regularly with praying five times a day also and avoiding masturbation during month of ramazan. They would make sure not to face west due to Kaaba direction while masturbating.

This is mostly generalization. The exceptions are on the rise in the modern times. Notice, Samina Wahid definitely knows all about it and even can write freely about it in ``Frost Bite``.

tahmed,

{{An early morning erection is a sign that you dont get enough of it. My sympathies}}

Men get erections during the REM phase of sleep. Its a natural physiological response. Since the last phase of a normal sleep pattern is usually an REM phase (most of the time); men wake up with an erection--ESP young men. Your ``theory``, I`m afraid, is an ``old wives tale``..er, no pun intended:)

sameer,

{{It is erction with erotic thoughts that is prohibited...}}

I`m curious about Islam`s view about human sexuality. I`m being serious! You seem to suggest that Islam says one has to actively suppress & repress erotic thoughts before marriage. I`m assuming thats one of the reasons muslims generally marry when theyre relatively young(er).

Sex between husband & wife is ``holy`` in every religion & I`m taking the liberty to assume that its holy in Islam too. I mean, considering how fast the muslim world is reproducing, let me take a wild guess & assume that true muslims must be engaging in a heck of a lot of sex---ofcourse with their wife(s) ONLY!.

Is it considered somehow offensive or improper to talk about sex? I mean, how do muslims learn about the ``birds & the bees``?--esp muslim women? I`m asking you this cos I`m treating a Bangladeshi 22 yr old lady whose parents are both highly educated professionals. I was intrigued when she told me that her parents (devout muslims) never ever talked about sex with their children. Is this cultural or ``religious`` or somehow not considered ``appropriate``? or is she an exception to the rule?

In the same vein, (& I`m not being a disrespectful wise-ass; now)...is there some sort of an ``etiquette`` that Islam has prescribed when a man has more than one wife? Please dont call me a pervert; I dont mean to be. Just a ``professionally based`` question which I think every good shrink ought to be aware of:)

sameerJB #98 An early morning erection is a sign that you dont get enough of it. My sympathies.

Nasah (#64) says:
``we the Muslims have a perfect Religion -- a perfect Prophet --a perfect Book -- and a Perfect God -- perfectly unchangng and perfectly immutable for --ALL TIMES TO COME -- Eternity -- Infinity.``
Logically, my friend, their followers should be the perfect people (ummah). A tree is judged by its fruits and a school by its graduates. Muslims are characterised by their ignorance, corruption, propensity to lie and cheat. These traits are so evident that one must be totally blind not to accept them. Still, to claim as Nasah does, is like arguing that a tree which produces rotten fruits is of the best breed or a school whose students consistently do poorly in exams and engage in thuggery and cheating is the best school in town!
Who are you trying to deceive? Others? It won`t work. But it should be obvious to Muslims by now that they are living in a dream-world totally out of synch with reality and the modern world, living in denial. With this attitude, there is no hope of any improvement, Muslims seem ``perfectly unchangng and perfectly immutable`` in their retrograde condition.
In this world they find salvation by fleeing to western countries (for which they will do anything). If their performance in this world is any guide, it is to be seriously doubted that a paradise awaits them in the next world. But even if they were despatched to paradise by God, they are sure to make a mess of it (look what they have done to the many resource-rich countries of the Middle East!). Surely Muslims can do credit to their religion by personal and collective self-improvement, not by repetitive, baseless bragging about the superiority of their religion.

shankar: It is erction with erotic thoughts that is prohibited. If Islam had a way to control early morning natural erection, it would have prohibited that too.

sameer,

{If unmarried Pakistanis can not even have erection without worrying about sin...}

Maybe I`m misunderstanding you or tripping over my own naievity...
unmarried Pakistani lads are told that an erection is sinful?!

& what happens when they wake up first thing in the morning?
do they have to fall on their knees & beg Allah`s forgiveness for having sinned?...or dont Pakistani guys wakeup with a hard-on?:))

Times like this I`d really want an opinion from Waqar....

Many things need to be changed in Pakistan for it to become a nation from a country. Islam and military establishment are top of the list. Both are inter-related and related to other problems such as imaginary identity, two-nation-theory, Islamic republic, Kashmir, military spending running Pakistan dry of its monetary resources, monopolizing every aspect of life in Pakistan and destruction repeatedly of civilian institutions.

To begin with Pakistanis should get rid of Islam from their underwears. Religions have no business sneaking into underwears. We live in the age of precise measurement in decimals and not the length of the grain of Pari brand basmati rice before cooking. The underwear is too private business to let Islam enter into it. If Pakistanis can`t get rid of Islam from underwears, reforming and limiting role of Islam in politics are just wild and dry dreams. Even if one like to live in the dream world, wet dreams are better than dry Islamic dreams.

If unmarried Pakistanis can not even have erection without worrying about sin, how can they erect civility and justice. Do justice to yourself before worrying about creating a just society. How can Pakistanis be progressive without letting some muscles to progress naturally? How can they look inside the hearts, minds, knowledge and wisdom of others when they are not supposed to even look at their own body behind the underwear?

That is why, Islam`s golden age occured during the underwear-free era. The golden age of Islam can not come back in the age of underwears and bikinis. At least, Hindusim does not enter Indians underwears, thanks in part to vegetarianism making underwears irrelevant.

The key to the future and future generations lies in the underwears. Therefore Islam is too dangerous to enter Pakistanis` underwears, no matter what Quran and Sunnah say about it.

haif uss designer underwear ki ehmia`at ghalib
jis say wabasta ho Pakistan ka mustaqbil hona

shankar #92 While Churchill may have said that war is too important to be left to the generals, our Pakistani generals take care not only of war, but also of foreign policy, domestic policy, water and power infrastructure, manufacturing of corn flakes, and indeed the Pakistan Constitution itself.
Obviously Churchill never met such clever generals as ours, and knew only the stupid British generals who could not even tell the difference between a plot in a posh area in Islamabad vs. a plot in rural Baluchistan. Ha! Ha! (see, i am laughing at how stupid those British generals were).
I understand the stupid British admirals were no better either. They could never have figured out how to make millions by purchasing submarines from the French and asking the frogs to toss in ten percent at a Swiss bank account, like our brave Admiral did.
No wonder Churchill we disillusioned. He never met generals and admirals of the martial race of Pakistan.

ferozk #93 Your point about freer trade etc. with India and other neighboring countries may yield some benefits, but not much. The fact is that economic integration between paupers (and with all due respect, both India and Pakistan are among the poorest nations in the world today and will remain so in the foreseeable future, IT or no IT) has proved meaningless. Poor countries simply have nothing much to trade. That is why post-colonial attempts by third world nations at forming economic unions or free trade zones (e.g. in Africa, in Latin America, and even in case of the RCD pact between Pakistan, Iran and Turkey in th 1960`s). That is why Turkey is knocking at Europe`s doors asking to be let in, not at Iran or Syria of Armenia`s door.
The US is the best thing that could have happened to India, creating a huge and prosperous expatriate community and waking them up to new ideas that their traditional culture could never have provided. What is the sense therefore in your denying Pakistan the same benefits of association with a rich and dynamic economy like the US?

feroz,

Lemme focus on one important aspect of your analysis.

If Pakistan`s development is highly contingent on its relationship to India, then the onus is on Pakistan to give in on Kashmir. If it grudgingly acknowledges that it cannot compete with India head to head--not with the state of affairs its in; it has ZERO hopes to see Kashmir ``liberated``.

At the VERY BEST, Pakistan can get an agreement that the LoC is the permanent border & get on with more important things like feeding & educating her people. But the LoC as the permanent border will be NEVER accepted by Pakistan`s military; so Pakistan is SCREWED.

Mushy himself summed it up in an interview. He was asked ``Why cant the LoC be accepted as an international border?`` His reply was (or something to the effect of); ``then it would mean that the lives of all our brave military & ``Kashmiri freedom fighters``, who died fighting, would have been in vain!`` He`s right! Thats EXACTLY how a military mind THINKS. If ANY Pakistani leader DARES to say otherwise, will be booted out . If Mushy EVER agreed to such a ``strategic U-turn`` on Kashmir; he`d be courtmartialled by his own military--or better yet; they would make the ``this-e-thats`` hang him from the nearest flagpole!

Ergo, Pakistan is in a Catch-22 situation; its trapped & CANT & WONT be free from that trap.

Right, wrong or indifferent, India has made it VERY CLEAR that they will NOT give in to the war of a 1000 cuts. India is too large a country with a huge economy to be bled in such a way. Despite that ``war of a 1000 cuts`` & US sanctions & a drought, her economy has/had been doing reasonably well. The Indians know that. Its an open secret that India can & is willing to ride this jehadi war out; cos India knows Pakistan is bleeding as well with this ``war`` & Pakistan CANT afford to bleed like that! And our favourite Field Marshall thinks that wars are fought only on a military battlefield! Maybe he should have listened to Churchill who said, ``war is too important an enterprise to be left in the hands of the military``. If theres anything the Pakistani military is ``world famous`` for, its LOSING wars! ....but damnit! theyre too proud to even ADMIT it!:)

Whats equally important is that the ENTIRE world (including the traditional friends of Pakistan) are REFUSING to twist India`s arm on Kashmir. Heck, recently, Pakistan had to threaten to resign from the OIC if they didnt continue to discus Kashmir. Even China & India are strenghtening relationships--even while border disputes are going on! Now when in the world will some Pakistani leader become a little more ``mature`` & see the handwriting on the wall?!---too bad; if he becomes a little more ``mature``, he`ll probably be killed!

Even the ``captive`` Kashmiris are resigned to that fact. What Pakistan doesnt have the guts to acknowledge is that Indian Kashmiris detest the ``freedom fighters`` almost as much as the Indian army. Have they been following the political developments in IOK?...NO! Mushy is so much in denial that the brushed off the Kashmiri elections as a ``farce``...haha! I think he really really believes that only HE knows how to run a ``proper`` election in S.Asia!!

So---whats it going to be; Pakistan?

1)Keep with the status quo & sink into a pile of goo & say ``at least we have kept our honor!``

Lemme tell you that India is no Asian Tiger, but she`s definitely on much firmer ground than Pakistan...mainly cos of her size; a better educated public & much more solid institutions. She is far more optimistic about her future than Pakistan is. Spin it any way you want; but facts are facts...
Lemme also tell you that Indian muslims arent feeling secure---BUT they are not lining up in front of the Pakistani embassy to immigrate. If anything, Indian muslims feel Pakistan is hurting, not helping their sense of security.

OR


2) Get your thumb out of your butt, Pakistan & change your ziddi re Kashmir; its better for your country, in the long run....

Get a grip on reality & realise that those brahmins in Delhi have outclassed you. When you say Kashmir is the CORE issue; Indians are LAUGHING at you! The rest of the world is just being polite to you. Your ummah gives you murmurs of sympathy & they come to India & snicker behind your back! Its not JUST the shia mullahs from Iran...its secular Turkey, & sunni Arabs too! If Yasser Arafat hasnt denounced Kashmir or Godhra, what HOPE do you have?

Please wake up to REALITY, Pakistan....your Muslim friends LIKE you, but they dont RESPECT you! So much for Mushy`s claim of ``living with honor!``. The sad part is that, subconciously, he KNOWS it....thats why he goes to Putin to open a ``historic`` doorway, which is met with much allocades in the Pakistani press. Nevermind that Putin called Vaju the day before & said ``dont worry Vaju, I`ll just humor this guy while he`s here!``

Guess what, Pakistan?!....the ONLY power that unconditionally supports your stand in Kashmir is...GASP..AL-QEEDA!!!!
Is it any surprise that you find yourself so isolated today?!

Ooooh...I wish Field Marshall reads this post...I just enjoy turning his face purple...maybe he`ll come out with some nice poems from Ghalib!!:ROLF

Re: Shankar # 82 (part II)

Hence, Pakistan`s future depends on its ability to carve an independent role for itself outside the gambit of United States` interests. As long as Pakistan maintains its dependency on the United States, it will never progress economically or politically into a viable nation state. Pakistan has to realize that its future lies not in parroting the intentions of the United States, but in ending its confrontational politics with India and building a strategic economic alliance with India first, then translating that alliance into a mutually benefitting political cooperation with India.

In all fairness, Pervez Musharraf seems to have realized this fact; that Pakistan`s future lies in creating a workable, durable relationship with India and using its ties and influence with the Arab/Muslim world to open South Asia as a potential world market, which intergrates the economies of Iran, Afghanistan, India, Pakistan, Nepal, Bangladesh and to an extent, Sri Lanka into a common market. The failure of Kargil convinced the Pakistani military that a military solution to Kashmir is not an option and secondly, since 1990s Pakistan military`s threat perception has focused internally rather than externally on India.

Pakistan`s future then lies in its ability to develop its interests in this sphere, but to achieve this, it has to undertake the following policies. These policies are feasible, but improbable given the dynamics of Pakistani politics. First, Pakistan must give India the Most Favored Nation Status in trade and remove all barriers and subsidies in its bilateral trade with India. India has to recipocate by showing a willingness to settle the issue of Kashmir and both counties have to remove the cul-de-sac of pre-conditions in dealing with one another.

Second, Pakistan has to move away from its tacit and overt, some times covert, support of the militancy in Kashmir. In this sense, Pakistan is not as guility as India might assume, because the militancy is flamed to a significant degree by excesses of the Indian security forces in Kashmir and again, India must move beyond the rhetoric of its domestic politics and deal with Kashmir. India can more effectively deal with the problem and end the militancy by removing the cause for its raison d` etre - lack of political representation. India has admited that it cannot stop cross border movement of militants, and neither can Pakistan realistically given the terrain in Kashmir. India, if it gives political representation to the Kashmiris will thus remove all support to the militancy and therefore, checkmate Pakistan in the region and thus force Pakistan to actively seek a diplomatic solution to the crisis.

The irony is that Pakistan`s future depends on India`s ability to realistically grasp the gravity of the situation in Kashmir, because the solution to Kashmiri problem lies with India and not Pakistan. So far, India seems to be banking on Pakistan to end the militancy, but Pakistan once having created the monster of militancy, is now dealing with a bitter consequence that it is no longer capble of controlling it.

Third, Pakistani military, economic and political elite have to marginalize the American influence within Pakistan. The foremost concern is the Pakistani armed forces and in this regard, the Pakistan Air Force is moving towards closer military intergration with the China, while Pakistan Navy is moving towards China and France for its needs. Pakistan Army so far has been slow to shed its pro-American bias, but there seems to be definate movement in the army towards limiting the religious influence of the Zia years and re-instituting the concept of secularism in the military. The end result of this is still 20 to 40 years away, but a start has been made. Without much fanfare or notice, an order from GHO in Rawalpindi stated the cadets at the Pakistani military academy at Kakul will no longer have time off from their training for prayers.

Pakistani army is creating, or in the process of creating, an officer corps that is loyal to Pakistan and its interests, but this process in order to be successful must have a resolution of the Kashmiri problem, which removes the influence of Pakistani army from domestic politics.

The bureaucracy has to become Pakistan specfic and the selections to it, have to be made on merit. This process was started last year, but the end result is still 30 years away. It will take 30 years for the batch of 2002 to attain cabinet level grades, when they can influence policy decisions. It is too early to predict Pakistan`s future, because the reforms under Musharraf will not show their results, that is if they are not side tracked, until the next 30 plus years. The economic reforms of the military government of Musharraf, implemented in 1999, have only now in 2003 began to show glimmers of a good result and those results are encouraging.

Thus, to answer your question, the future will become self-evident by the latter half the 21st century and it is still too early to predict Pakistan`s future. However, if ``trends `n` intents`` are discussed, then Musharraf and his reformist agenda is the last best hope for Pakistan. Those who hope for a Pakistani future in the image of Jinnah`s dream will be sorely disappointed, because too much proverbial water has flown under the bridge for Pakistan to revert to the innocence of 1947.

Pakistan and Pakistanis have to realize this one fact, before Pakistan has even a hope a better future. This is; Pakistan, as it exists today, was created in 1971 and not 1947. Pakistan, which was created in 1947 ended with seperatation of East Pakistan in 1971 and in its place a new nation was created in 1971. This new nation of Pakistan must not repeat the mistakes of the old Pakistan, otherwise the results will be the same and that, the politicans and the provinces in Pakistan have to learn to accomodate dissent and not seek to silence dissent by the use of force. Pakistan and its political leadership, both military and civilian, has to learn to respect and not fear the opinion of its population.

This is a must, because the Pakistani political elite, military and civilian, has always sacrificed public opinion in order to safe guard its own power. Pakistani elite must learn to tolerate the opinion of the people and not presume paternalistically, what is best for the country. This implies the earth shattering realization that the political elite of Pakistan must follow judgement of the people of Pakistan and not the interests of the United States. The cruel irony is that the majority of the Pakistanis are of the opinion that future of Pakistan lies in the region, but the majority of the elite opines that the future of Pakistan lies with the United States, because they have become so dependent on the United States that they identify their future, with the United States. This ideal is not shared by the majority, because they have never historically benefited from this relationship of unequals, between Pakistan and the United States.

Not to put a too fine a point, the ultimate future of Pakistan depends on who wins this agrument. Basically, the future of Pakistan does not lie with the United States; it lies with India and sooner the Pakistani people and the Indian government realize this, the region will prosper! To deny this will only cause problems and this can be attributed towards the last 55 years` uneasy peace. The tragedy is that the Indians seemed to have, once, realize this, but the Pakistanis were resistant to this idea. When the Pakistanis accepted the envitability of this idea, the Indian government had a change of heart! LOL

Ciao

nasah #88 I assume by ``take it easy Islam`` you mean one which says ``Thou shalt have a good laugh once a day``, ``Thou shalt watch a good movie twice a month``, and ``Thou shalt go with thine woman to the beach, or to the hills, once a year``. I dont think anyone shall complain (particularly if we add ``Thou shalt eat more than thine potbelly can hold`` and that will keep the maulvis happy).

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tahmed:

do you think this -- take it easy Islam -- will fly or meet with popular discontent?

Re: Shankar # 82

Shankar, that is a very difficult question to answer.

In short, Pakistan`s future depends on the internal situation within the country and in the immediate sense, on the geo-political realities in the regions of Central Asia, South Asia and West Asia. In the long term, it depends on its relations with India, because Indian-Pakistani relationship is the only constant in this ever changing equation. Pakistan cannot, in a pragmatic sense, compete with India in a power struggle, but it cannot also appease India unconditionally. The best option is then to evolve a modus vivendi type of relationship and this suggests that Pakistan has to redirect the scope and the intent of its foreign policy. Religion has to be brutally removed from its foreign policy and its external relations have to be solidily reinforced on the premise of ``calucalated realism`` and not dictated by shallow emotionalisms to idealistic and utopian causes. Pakistan`s foreign policy has to create ``buffers of insularities`` around Pakistan, which allows Pakistan to disengage from its maximalist foreign policy aims. Pakistan needs to adopt, in a sense, a foreign policy, which allows it a regional stability that enables its domestic politics to reconstruct themselves institutionally by instilling democratic norms in the country.

This ties in with its domestic situation. The domestic politics in Pakistan are in a state of flux; there is a power vacuum in Pakistan and as result, the political situation in the country is chaotic. It is this power vacuum - lack of a viable centralized political authority, which encourages an externalized influence in Pakistani politics. Pakistani polity is fissured and fractured, and its domestic discourse is based on confrontational politics intead of consensual politics. Domestic stability in Pakistan and a steady progression towards domestic democratic prcess is only possible, when there is no external influence in Pakistani politics. The removal of this extenal influence will allow Pakistan ``a window``, which will allow the process to evolve. The problem in Pakistan is that its politics is a Frankenstein of conterdictions and no democracy has evolved in Pakistan, because it has always been sacrificed on the alter of national security interests.

Therein lies lies the problem. Pakistani domestic politics are the extensions of the foreign policies of its chief patron; the United States. The United States has always been willing to short circuit the democratic process in Pakistan in order to attain its strategic aims. The end result of this has been that Pakistan`s political evolution has always sough to balance short term American interests with long term Pakistani interests. In this Pakistan has suffered, because its interests were always suborindated to the American interests and it has only itself to blame for this situation.

Pakistan entered into this relationship on unrealistic expections and sought to use the patronage of United States vis-a-vis India and hence, from the onset it created the impression that this was a relationship of opportunity and not a strategic alliance. Based on this assumption, the United States exploited Pakistan for its own needs. Secondly, Pakistan never diversified its relations and opted to keep all its eggs in the American basket. This made Pakistan a defacto protectorate of the United States and this was made even worse by the fact that Pakistan, instead of developing a sense of political and economic independence, instead became more dependent on the United States for its political survival.

(second part to follow)

``25% is too steep even if it is tax deductable ............ how about 10%``(hamidm)

hamidm:

agreed -- 10% it is -- no science then only Evolution -- that should do it....

nasah #80 The early west european monks (around 9th century AD) had similarly improved on the ten commandments by adding the following restrictions for all christians: Thou shalt not have sex during holy days, pregnancy, breast feeding, nor on Monday, Tuesdays, Wednesdays, Fridays and Sundays. This met with popular discontent and had to be taken back.

``25% is too steep even if it is tax deductable ............ how about 10%``(hamidm)

agreed -- 10% it is -- no science then only Evolution -- that should do it....

Ref Ashit Urshit Dickshit

[#82 by shankar on February 23, 2003 2:07pm PT
feroz, #77

Insightful post.

#67 by shankar on February 22, 2003 9:39am PT
ferozk, #55

Outstanding post!]

What is this? Let-me-kiss-Feroze`s-a$$-week on Chowk?

nasah,

........i think you are on to something - except for commandmant #4 ............ 25% is too steep even if it is tax deductable ............ how about 10% ? ........ jazak allah khair !

ferozk #78
The common element between the Salem witch hunts, the McCarthy era, the empowerment of Islamic hardliners and Hindootva goondaism is the assumption and presumption of piety by a few SOLELY because they are willing to denounce and punish others.

Willingness to denounce is such a transparently fake and simple device to acquire piety and moral overlordship that I wonder what are the kind of conditions in a society when people allow this fake device to succeed ?

For example send people to die for jihad while you yourself prosper and your children get US- educated? Shut down musical shows in the name of public morality and adherence to scripture and then become a pimp for the out-of-work singers(Taliban/NWFP)? Kill innocent men, women and children and create an atmosphere of fear and hatred, setting back your country`s political development, and economy while putting millions of children in danger of losing their future due to civil unrest and call it `nationalism`(hindootva goons).

feroz,
#77

Insightful post. I`ve heard a lot of suggestions on Chowk by Pakistanis about what needs to happen in Pakistan, for conditions to improve & become the kind of state Jinnah envisioned.

But let me ask your personal opinion...go out on a limb & predict the future; based on Pakistan`s weaknesses & strenghts. I find your opinions a little more realistic than my friend Romair`s Polyannish predictions:)

Re: saminasha # 60

Pakistan will experience reforms once people start to question.

Questions will come, because the present state of affairs is based on insupportable conterdictions. The plight of Pakistan has been that its population has periodically opted for the easy path and has seldom challenged the official wisdom. There is a marked hypocricy in Pakistan, which belies all our claims to the contary and remember this, Pakistan is a country and not a nation. Once we start thinking like a nation and start becoming loyal towards the creed for, which Pakistan was created, this place of misfortune and blighted souls will progress.

The creed for, which Pakistan was created has nothing to with religion. Pakistan was created on economic rationales and that was to end the economic apartheid under, which the Muslims of India were suffering. In order to understand this argument, one has to review the situation pertaining to the partition, and its eventual anullment, of Bengal. Muslim League was created in 1906 to safeguard the economic interests of the Muslims of India and not to ask for a territorial seperation based on religion. Once we go back to the original intentions of Pakistan, it becomes clear that religion was used, for the first time, in 1949 by Liaquat Ali Khan and it was offically brought into the matrix of state power by the consitution of 1956, as a means to legitimize the power by catering to a politically powerful constituency - the religious lobby.

The rise of Islam and Islamic militancy in Pakistan has been nourished, over the years, by the triad of the feudals, the military and politicans, with the abetted help of the bureaucracy, to legally monopolize non dejure power. Pakistan was a secular state from August 14, 1947 to September 11, 1948 and a democratic state from 1947 to 1958. In order to remake Pakistan as a secular democratic state, the raison d` etre of the military for wielding power has to be removed and that means settling the issue of Kashmir, which sanctions its overbearing involvment in domestic politics. The bureaucracy has to be depolitized and delinked from its self-perpetuating nexus of military, political and feudal inter-connections.

Lastly, as you said, religion has to be removed from the concourse of politics by educating the people that secularism is not a paean to athesism, but a tolerance for all religions in politics. However to attain this aim, politics and the mechanisms of politics in Pakistan have to divorce themselves from their religious crutch. This requires a political will to directly challenge the mantra of the religious lobby and unless this will is forthcoming, reforms will not be possible in Pakistan. The best way to affect this change is to remove the levers of opinions from the hands of ill-informed and ill educated religious preachers. The only manner, which foresakes violence, is to ask the people a question as to when did Islam sanction an offical clergy and to answer this question, Islam has to be re-taught in its spiritual sense and not in its political machinations.

In other words, public opinion has to be educated and though this education, change introdouced. Now ask yourself this question and you will understand the problem - who controls public opinion in Pakistan? Change in Pakistan has to come from the villages, because they, not the cities, are the center of political gravity in Pakistan.

Ciao

RE: Sadna # 65

I agree with you! To be perfectly honest, I am slowly, but painfully late, coming to realization that hypocricy is the perfect coda to ignorance and hate and hate mongers really thrive on a lack of knowledge to preach and propagate their own skewed visions.

I have read Arthur Miller`s play, the Crucible.

Re: Mohar11 # 58

If I misjudged your comments, then I apologise to you.

Ciao

mohar11 #74 You have beautiifully proved my point: By accepting (1) and (2) of my points but dropping my point (3) and calling me a ``closet mullah`` instead, you have just proved exactly what I wrote to Ferozk in my post #71.
In fact I was going to provide exactly this ``closet mullah`` charge as an example, but decided to leave it out. You obliged and demonstrated this on your own anyway. Petty minded people like you and Jay are damned predictable!!

Although it is obvious that our RELIGION has an ALL Knowledgeable God -- an All knowledgeable Porphet -- and an all knowledgeable BOOK -- where for the true seekers with nothing else to do -- answers to all questions -- of past, present and future matters -- are buried begging to be discovered -- in our EASTERN ISLAM --

in the WEST -- unfortunately we don`t have the time, the energyor the insight -- and the means to dig up prescriptions from Quran -- as to how to make Daisy cutters -- Pentiums and Antibiotics -- foor those we alread have labs and lab scientists.

it is clear from the avalanche of SELF-CRTICISM by Western Muslims intellctuals that there is a dire NEED to REFORM Islam - for the Muslims and their current progeny -- who have chosen WEST instead of EAST for their future generations.

It is becoming clear that if we have to live in the West as Muslims -- we HAVE to REFORM ISLAM somehow or others --

God of Western Muslims has to REPAIR some of HIS 1400 year old FIVE pillars of Islam -- and add some NEW PILLARS -- for the stability of that ever burgeonng structure of Islm -- if it has to become a Western skyscraper.

so -- here are the 10 commandments for the new Western Islam reformed of its vestiges of Eastern backwardness:

thou shall accept Islam by reciting the kalma orally and in writing before an INS official and then register wih the FBI as a Muslim.

thou shall not do Namaz FIVE times a day -- only ONE time a week on SUNDAY -- not Friday

thou shall fast during Ramadan during weekends only -- thou must drink WATER preferably Gatorade if nothing else.

thou shall give ONE FOURTH of your annual income -- before taxes -- for Zakat -- to be invested in science education and teachig of Evolution -- not in Jihadi organisations.

Thou shall not do the demeaning SIJDA -- especially thy women -- like a bunch of iliterate arab Pygmies.

thou shall free thy women from the Kitchen, their hair from hijab -- and free them from their house arrest -- and free thy women to LEAD thy Namaz

thou shall sit on chairs and desk in the masjid to pray -- NOT on the floor like arab bedouins.

thou shall not make hajj pilgrimage as an annual ritual -- thou shall do Umra all year as a camera tourist -- fully clothed -- and without running helter skelter -- and cluttering the place with stone pebbles.

thou shall not eat on floor in house parties -- not eat with hands and not segregate thy women to one corner and the men in the living room.

thou shall read and recite Quran in arabic -- daily before going to bed -- but not read the translationor the `turjuma`.....

thus this new breed of Western Muslims lived happily ever after.... with the New Western Islam flourising in the Civilize Western World ....

hasan

Although it is obvious that our RELIGION has an ALL Knowledgeable God -- an All knowledgeable Prophet -- and an all knowledgeable BOOK -

-- where for the true seekers with nothing else to do -- answers to all questions -- of past, present and future matters -- are buried -- begging to be discovered -- in our EASTERN ISLAM --

in the WEST -- unfortunately we don’t have the time, the energy or the insight -- and the means to dig up prescriptions from Quran -- as to how to make Daisy cutters -- Pentiums and the Antibiotics -- for those we already have labs and lab scientists.

it is clear from the avalanche of SELF-CRTICISM by Western Muslims intellectuals -- that there is a dire NEED to REFORM Islam - for the Muslims and their current progeny -- who have chosen WEST instead of EAST for their future generations.

It is becoming clear that if we have to live in the West as Muslims -- we HAVE to REFORM ISLAM somehow or others --

God of Western Muslims has to REPAIR some of HIS 1400 year old FIVE pillars of Islam -- and add some NEW PILLARS -- for the stability of that ever burgeoning structure of Islam -- if it has to become a Western skyscraper.

so -- here are the 10 commandments for the new Western Islam -- reformed of its vestiges of Eastern backwardness:

thou shall accept Islam by reciting the Kalma orally -- and in writing -- before an INS official and then register with the FBI as a Muslim.

thou shall NOT do Namaz FIVE times a day -- only ONE time a week on SUNDAY -- not Friday

thou shall fast during Ramadan during weekends only -- thou must drink WATER preferably Gatorade if nothing else.

thou shall give ONE FOURTH of th annual income -- before taxes -- for Zakat -- to be invested in science education and teaching of Evolution -- not in Jihadi organizations.

Thou shall not do the demeaning SIJDA -- especially thy women -- like a bunch of illiterate Arab Pygmies.

thou shall free thy women from the Kitchen, their hair from the Hijab -- and free them from their house arrest -- and free thy women to LEAD thy Namaz

thou shall sit on chairs and desk in the Masjid to pray -- NOT on the floor like Arab Bedouins.

thou shall not make hajj pilgrimage as an annual ritual -- thou shall do Umra all year as camera tourist -- fully clothed -- and without running helter-skelter -- and cluttering the place with stone pebbles.

thou shall not eat on floor in house parties -- not eat with hands -- and not segregate thy women to one corner -- and thy men in the living room.

thou shall read and recite Quran in Arabic -- daily before going to bed -- but NEVER read the translation or the `turjuma`.....

thus -- this new breed of Western Muslims lived happily ever after.... with the New Western Islam flourishing in the Civilized Western World ....

hasan

Ref sameerJB #62

[I also do not consider solitary contemplations, meditations in caves or under tree or top of Mount Sinai or hanging in the well upside down for three days or holding breath for 15 minutes underwater or standing forty days on one foot in the icy waters somewhere in the foothill of Himalaya as superior service to humanity than a person who is directly contributing to humanity by working and doing rational things for normal living and those whose work has contributed towards uplifting living conditions.]

On the other hand, when a yogi who has spent years meditating in a cave in the Himalayas demonstrates to a Harvard medical team his ability to control his autonomic nervous system at will -- which directly contradicts everything the scientific world knows, or when a Buddhist lama spends a winter night outside in the snow in McLeodganj and demonstrates that he can not only preserve his body heat but can actually raise his body temperature, maybe, just maybe, the scientific world can learn a little bit more about the human body from these people who have not worked towards uplifting the living conditions of other human beings.

By the way, those examples are not made up; they are factual.

PS. Don`t ask the Shrink about it. Dr. Dickshit is a practitioner of voodoo. He wouldn`t have a clue what I am talking about. Nor can he read medical journals.

#71 by tahmed32
//...I have here a man who is unwilling to accept my right to be (1) a muslim, (2) to be comfortable with being a muslim, ...//

Paranoia gets Ahmed Mian!

Get a grip on yourself man - nobody is out there to get you! You can be whatever you want to be, nobody cares enough about you to deny you anything.

But then this so typical of closet-mullahs. As soon as they sniff somebody trying to blow their cover - they start crying wolf, start beating their chests how muslims are under fire, Islam is in danger, how the whole world is waging war against muslims.

#71 by tahmed32
//.... It is indeed a great rejoinder to mohar11 ,....//

You wish. read my post #58.

ferozk #55 After reading praise of your post to mohar11 from shankar, I went back and read your post. It is indeed a great rejoinder to mohar11 with whom I have had a couple of interactions, and as a result have concluded that I have here a man who is unwilling to accept my right to be (1) a muslim, (2) to be comfortable with being a muslim, and (3) to be comfortable with other people being whatever faith (or lack thereof) to which they belong.
Like brother Jay and some other characters on chowk, mohar11 will permit me any two choices, but not all three. ;-)

saxena,

wassa matter peabrain?...felt left out that I didnt insult you?

since youre reading this message, let me ask you something...a nagging thought that even kept intruding my mind while I was swimming among sharks in the Carribean---

PROMISE me you are not really f*cking with my mind; posing as a ``waqaralisheikh``...he comes & goes like one of your wet dreams...We DO know you are nerdy enough with computers to upload fake photos on Chowk...& a weasel like you is not beyond coming up with an off-the-wall biodata like a fictitiuos ``waqar`` from a madrassah...JUST to awaken latent fantasies you & I had when we were teenagers about..er...ahem ..``proper harem etiquette``...

Dunno why, but when he said things like YOU CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH!!..he reminded me of a certain jingoistic 20 something butthole that I love to hate on Chowk...

Chowk Staff,
I`m reeeaaally reeeaaallly upset that articles are zipping by at such a rush..rush rate...
cant even have a decent intra-hindu khunnas-ka grudge fight...

>Take Romair himself. Presumably, he rates himself as educated, as solution rather than problem.

What can you about the genius of a person who believes in Quran because of its `scientific knowledge?`

re: shrinker

...dude, can your rambling already...

Ferozek

``In finality, I will be judged by Allah and it is His verdict, on my status as a Muslim, which is final and binding and not your personal opinions about the virtues of who is a Muslim and to decide what they should think!``

My friend, your words are comming straight from the heart. More power to you. May the spirit of curiosity and a healthy sceptism triumph over the dead dogma...

ferozk,

#55

Outstanding post!

When I read posts re Islam as interpreted by you, tahmed et all, your religion impresses me to no end. I`m glad at the way you addressed mohar---your self identity, self esteem is the product of the teachings of your parents, teachers, ``church/mosque`` etc etc. In other words your/our superegos shape our ``ego``. DOESNT MATTER what ``other people`` think of you!-be that person a ``true`` muslim or a bigotted idol worshipping kafir.

{{Mohar11, who died and made you my judge, jury and excutioner?}}

I havent read mohar`s ``accusations`` ...but it doesnt matter...in my life`s experience, the people who are the LEAST qualified to judge others, tend to do a heck of a lot of judging...& very LOUDLY, at that! You are too polite; I would have said ``Who fu*king died & made you God?!`` :))

So when a hindu bigot like harimou or a muslim bigot like Waqarali mian (btw, has he dissappeared, again?) dislike me cos of who they think I am; I take great pride in telling myself ``Jeeze, if these buttheads turn out to be right & their souls go to ``Heaven``, I`ll GLADLY burn in ``Hell`` in everlasting damnation``!!... I mean, I`ll GLADLY go there hopping & skipping, barefooted, over burning coals, with an idol of penis god tucked under my left armpit & chomping at a cholesterol laden big Mac in my right hand. BTW, I`ve heard there`s an ``all-you-can-eat`` free buffet ...all the Chinese food & dal bhaji you can stuff in your inflamed red-hot stomach...EVERYDAY! in Hell.

One more thing, please tell hamidm that the beer in Hell is boiling hot & sipped like chai ...& fois gras can only be slathered on a piece of idli before its consumed. Cant help it, Hell is for invited guests ONLY! No cynical Islamists looking for free drinks allowed!

cnn reports latest violence in karachi:

8 shites killed by sunni extremists(ofcourse, it is not pogrom(it is called
sectarism as per praful bidwai, uncle mushy...)) if muslims kill fellow muslims, then god help other non-muslims.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/asiapcf/south/02/22/pakistan.mosque.ap/index.html

...here we go again...this has all been said before on chowk, by all of you in fact...don`t you all get bored?...

Feroze asks:

````How can we better ourselves, when we assume that we are prefect from birth and there is nothing for us to improve upon? Is that not arrogance? ````

Yes Feroz -- we the Muslim have a perfect Religion -- a perfect Prophet --a perfect Book -- and a Perfect God -- perfectly unchangng and perfectly immutable for --ALL TIMES TO COME -- Eternity -- Infinity

And believe me it`s NOT -- pure arrogance -- it `s Pure Pyote

Ferozk #55

Now that mohar11 has clarified.

``In finality, I will be judged by Allah and it is His verdict, on my status as a Muslim, which is final and binding and not your personal opinions about the virtues of who is a Muslim and to decide what they should think!``

Ferozk, you should read(or watch) the play by Arthur Miller, the Crucible about the Salem witch hunts which he was inspired to write during the McCarthy period. Its eerie to see playing out in an unconnected time and situation exactly the same situation that we (on the subcontinent) have become very familiar with these days, namely hypocrites wielding the moral authority of religion to denounce and punish others, a moral authority which was never theirs in the first place.

Umer Murtaza: I have said many times that Islam`s crisis or fall does not matter to me but Muslims are people including all of my family members and most friends and Pakistan and Panjab. I am concerned for them and wish them best.

Saminashah: I agree with your post. The first step is separation of religion from community and collective affairs like development, social justice, politics, education etc. That is what I meant by reducing enthusiasm for spiritual diffusing into practical to the extent of becoming sole determining factor - call it a clogged filter or a clogged sieve.

The diffrence between FerozK and moe is that he questions Islam whereas I challenge it on comparative basis with the collective knowledge and wisdom from anywhere and everywhere. I also refuse to accept revelations and cognitions at par or above knowledge and wisdom.

I also do not consider solitary contemplations, meditations in caves or under tree or top of Mount Sinai or hanging in the well upside down for three days or holding breath for 15 minutes underwater or standing forty days on one foot in the icy waters somewhere in the foothill of Himalaya as superior service to humanity than a person who is directly contributing to humanity by working and doing rational things for normal living and those whose work has contributed towards uplifting living conditions.

Ferozk 55

``I do not hate Islam, though it is so easy to silence me by saying that and having me killed. ``

It is sad, very very sad.

Even a professional pakibasher has a code of conduct, I will never again lump you with the ilks of tahmed.

Wish you the best

regards

Jayaprakash.

#55 by ferozk
//... I do not hate Islam, though it is so easy to silence me by saying that.....Islam suggests that knowledge must be gained at all costs and how can knowledge be gained without asking questions//

Hey Feroz ! relax man - I am on your side. Boy! you TOTALY MISUNDERSTOOD my post #41. Blame it on my lack of writing proficiency. I was just being sarcastic in first part of my post #41.

I am not a mullah. I am actually a Kufr. I myself have been branded as Islam-hater, by closet-mullahs crawling here in chowk, for raising questions related to Islam. I suspected that`s mainly because I am Kufr. So, I was quoting you to show how liberal muslims like yourself also taking a similar stand. I was making the point that questioning Islam is NOT same as hating Islam.

I know - as far as Mullahs and closet-mullahs are concerned - liberal muslims like yourself are as bad as Kufrs like me - probably worse. That`s why - in this great debate for rescuing the soul of Islam from clutches of mullahs and jihadis, I have thrown my lot on your side.

I agree with you 100% - that we reserve the right to question everybody, everything under the sun : Gods, sons of gods, prophets of gods, god-men, holy books, korans, bibles, geetas, everything. That does NOT make us hate-mongers. Ranting and raving apologists crawling here in chowk cannot suppress our rights to speak out.

++++

//...I have been called a kufr by my wife in an open court, because my mother was born to Parsi parents and my deceased father was called a Hindu...because we, as a family, do not wear our religion, Islam, on our sleeves//

I understand your pain. The rot in Islamic societies has gone deeper than many realize.

Sameer,

This is genuine curiosity: why are you so interested in the affairs of Muslims (let nature and survival of the fittest seive through those that are worthy of surviving - whilst the chhaan bura remain back) when you have chosen to leave that fold completely.

The reason why I say this is because most people who leave whatever faith or system of belief are usually `lazy` or have a `don`t give a $hit` attitude towards their previous faith. You are not exhibiting that behaviour and I`m just interested to know why.

Thanks
Umer M

Feroz and Sameer,

While I would hazard that neither of you two would completely agree with each other, there are a few principles in your posts that are speak of a more open and reformed Islam:
1. Broader, more progressive and private definitions of Muslim identity.
2. Interdependence with other religious and secular systems in its scholarly, scientific and spiritual disciplines.
3. An emphasis on tolerance and coexistance
4. Separation of religious and political movement
5. An non religious and systematic response to poverty, illiteracy, pop. control, civil anarchy.

How could one bring about these reforms in Pakistan?

harimau #53 The Sultans of Delhi may have been inequitable to hindus, as you say. But then, history is full of man`s injustice (and indeed cruelty) to man (and women and children). Should one then repeat history, inflicting injustice or cruelty when we get the opportunity? Gandhi said (I think) that if we took an eye for an eye, the whole world would be blind. And as Jesus said, let he who is innocent cast the first stone.
As mankind progresses further and further away from its animal past, the wisdom behind such views becomes increasingly apparent. As for the Sultans of Delhi, if they were unjust to hindus perhaps one of my ancestors was among those hindus too!! The point is: you cant move in the direction of the future while trying to steer based on the road you see in the rear view mirror.
On the two nation theory: I think the experience of Pakistan in mixing religion with politics is an argument AGAINST, NOT FOR, the separation of religion from politics. Pakistan has lost econmic ground and become politically unstable as a result of this mixing of politics and religion. Why would India not pay the same (and indeed heavier cost, given the much greater population diversity) cost if it were to move away from secularism?? I think India is better off seeing where the progressive nations of the world are headed today, rather than trying to do what these nations have been steadily moving away from over the past few centures.

temporal #45: A billion or more than a billion does not matter. It is not a question of any danger of Muslims disappearing from the face of the earth. The fact is that Muslims are undergogs in every conflict they enter against rest of the world. It is a pretty sad commentary on the plight of a large group of people differentiated by religious practices fromt he rest.

This is not the first time Islam is in crisis. They have been through crisis many times and came out every time falling backward to the basics, dogma and orthodoxy. The Wahabi movement came out of Arab crisis of losing political dominance to Turks. The Syed Ahmed Barelvi and Shah Ismail came out of the crisis of faltering Mughal empire. The deobandism came out to stop indianization of Muslims and converting back, few to Hinduism and large number to Sikhism. Sir Syed Ahmed Khan and Shibli Nomani came out to cope arrival of British and Shibli bhai won over Sir Syed in general and later Ali brothers of Khilafat Movement.

That is what I do not trust finding solution from within as Shariati, Iqbal, Soroush and Hussein Nasr are proposing. This tendency can only change by outright defeat and not micromanaging crisis. Why can`t Muslim learn from Francis Bacon, Descartes or Emanuel Kant instead of relying exclusively on desi and Iranian religious scholars.

The Islamic crisis is so profound even in places like Indonesia where a tiny 3 percent Chinese control 75 percent of the economy. Same is true in Malaysia. Are you suggesting to Indonesian and Malaysian to read and follow Shariati, Iqbal, Soroush and Nasr instead of just learning from their neighbors - the Chinese population?

How can one blame colonialism and imperialism etc for having 5.3 children per mother? How can they blame anybody but themselves to spent lifetime saving in one shot of going to Mecca from all over th world and coming back with some holy water and dates after spending equivalent of 2-3 thousand dollars? Who is to blame when lower middle and middle class families spent 6-8 thosand rupees for killing a goat and not using it to improve the living standard or buying consumer durables.

Muslim must totally ignore all these Islamic liberation theologians and reformers. Instead they must lower the enthusiasm for religious practices and instead of reinventing green color Islamic wheel, learn from the worldwide examples of successful people and much admired scientific and rational plilosophies.

Embedded in relying on Islamic liberation theologian is the assumption that Islam is a superior religion and can become a leading light to the world if followed with modifications. First of all it is a fantasy, second rest of the world has proven more successful without it and thirdly the rigidity of belief stemming from unadultrated words of god.

Nothing short of realization by Muslims that Islam is contributing to their decline would do the job. Resisting the world with proven underdog status must be the last thing on their mind. Yet, the success of MMA in Karachi of all places depicts the resilience and resistance mindedness of Muslims after losing in Afghanistan. Instead of live and let live, the Islamic motto is `live like Taliban or die`.

Afghanistan experience should have opened the eyes next door by abandoning MMA. How can any woman vote for MMA preaching Taliban style government? What did Pakistan get by following Islam more and more. We got more and more population, more and more drug and Kalashnikov culture, more and more madrassah and jihadi culture, more sectarian violence. All this in exchange for place in heaven on judgement day, perhaps.

Muslims can not be oscillating between five bl