Islam in Crisis (Part2)

jay #16 I see you refer to me (and poor temporal) as engaging in sophistry. I have always maintained that you are hate-filled individual who pretends that South Indian Brahmins are Gods are somehow a notch above the rest of the population of the sub-continent. I have also maintained that your hatred and obsession with Pakistan in particular has driven you to insanity.
Does this sound like sophistry to you??? Rest assured I mean exactly what I write.

Rashid Talib: I have read with interest this Part II of your article. Perhaps the most significant sentence that you provide (as a quote) is the following:
``the spirit of the Quranic legislation exhibits an obvious direction towards the progressive embodiment of the fundamental human values of freedom and responsibility in fresh legislation, nevertheless the actual legislation of the Quran had partly to accept the then existing society as a term of reference. ``
If once accepts this, and my understanding of the Quran (for whatever it is worth, since I am no more and no less than an ordinary individual trying to understand the truth) also happens to be along these lines. One reason I have reached the same conclusion is as follows: While punishments are prescribed in the Quran, they represent the maximum punishment permissible, and are almost invariably supplemented with words to the effect that Allah loves Mercy.
The practical implications for today are as follows: The Criminal Penal Code that the British left behind is the product of a soceity (the upper calss Victorian Society in 19th century UK) that was more progressive than the society in which Quranic punishments were prescribed. Therefore (per the Quranic spirit of Mercy and Forgiveness) our aim should be to MOVE FURTHER IN THE DIRECTION OF RESPECT FOR INDIVIDUAL FREEDOM AND A MORE HUMANE SOCIETY. More speifically, this implies (a) abrogating the death sentence in Pakistan (my gut instinct is that one out of every two criminals executed in Pakistan is innocent e.g., even if one rejects the more philosophical case against the death sentence concerning the sanctity of all life, including that of a murderer); (b) improving prison conditions in Pakistan, and (c) enforcing properly the other other laws that do exist - laws that would put white collar criminals and the rich behind bars or subject to heavy fines, e.g.

I agree totally with Talibs sentiments.

Wonder why people from other religions too do not analyse their own.
Christianity, Buddhism, Sikhism, Hinduism or the Jews are not perfect either.

That would make for a wonderful dialogue - leading to the extinction of religion, would nt it?

;-)

re:`` the latter must be read in their spirit, not as literal truths.``

Can we agree then that Islamic interpretations that were read and implemented as ``literal truth`` are being used for other and less spiritual motivations?

Where is the dynamic of leadership, power and patriarchy in all this?

Its like Ionesco`s Rhinoceros; charging through the room every five minutes, but no one ``sees`` it....

#11 by Romair

Malaysia has progressed due to the renowned entrepreneurial qualities of its urban-based Chinese population – roughly 40 per cent of the population. It is wrong to credit its Muslim population, majority of who live in country-side and are comparatively less educated.

You cannot blame “low education rates, poor leaderships, colonial legacies, corruption etc.” for the under-development of Muslims states as these are only symptoms of, not the reasons for, the lack of their economic, social and political progress. It is the Islamic mindset which is hindering their development. They need to liberate themselves from the rigid theory propagated 1400 years back. Perhaps the solution lies with a protestant version of Islam.

A Muslim country to become a role model, I doubt it. Islam, as is practiced by Muslims, would not let any Muslim country to progress. There is no need to reinvent a wheel. Why not make an existing modern developed country as a role model. Lessons can be learnt from any of the countries in West or North Europe, Japan, Singapore or South Korea in Asia. The absence of the separation of church and state separate the 55 Muslims countries from the rest of the world.

#10 by Bhitai:

...thanks for the ranjit hoskote link…ben bella, boumediene and qadhafi were questiobnable on that list…but yes, nasr and shariati and others are definitely leading the way…shariati acknowledged sir muhammed iqbal also…some more links:

---seyyed hussain nasr (http://www.nasr.org/default.html)

---dr. ali shariati (http://www.shariati.com/)

---asghar ali engineer (http://newark.rutgers.edu/~rtavakol/engineer/)

---dr. riffat hussain (sorry don’t have an url address for her but she teaches in the US and writes frequently in Pakistani main stream media in both English and Urdu...have posted some of her articles and interviews in the unplugged section of chowk)

rgds,

t

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the problem with Islam can be summed up by this news item in TFT today, 02/20/03

One step forward, two centuries back (taliban commeth to pakistan)

Mohammad Shehzad
MMA wants to pass some ambitiously backward laws


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SLAMABAD – Akram Durrani’s Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal government in the Frontier province has constituted a 21-member committee, Nifaaz-e-Shariat Council, to draft proposals for the Islamisation of the province. The committee is burning the midnight oil in order to crank out a draft of the soon-to-be ordinance. The Council of Islamic Ideology is to vet all the proposals. Sources in the know shared with TFT some of the proposals that the committee has reportedly decided on.

Under the proposed law women will not be allowed to come out of their homes unless they are wearing the Hijab and are chaperoned by a kinsman. They will be encouraged to use traditional methods of hair removal and the sale of hair-removing creams and lotions will be banned. Shops shall not advertise sale of sanitary pads or undergarments and women will not be allowed to purchase such products. Kinsmen, however, may make necessary purchases on their behalf. All use of perfume and makeup will be banned. Husbands are encouraged to physically abuse their wives if these rules are flouted.

Women will not be allowed to use male tailors. Female tailors alone must measure and stitch clothes for women. Also, no male doctors or nurses will be allowed to treat women patients. Of course, women will not be allowed to model or appear on television. No printed image of women will be allowed. Women guests at hotels will not be allowed to use the swimming pool. And beauty parlours, accused of spreading obscenity in the proposal, shall be banned. Coeducation will also be banned because it promotes Zina (adultery).

Rajim (stoning to death) will be the punishment for adultery and will be executed in public. Amputation of limbs will be punishment for stealing. Family planning will be declared un-Islamic and sale of contraceptives banned. People would be encouraged to produce more children in order to “strengthen Islam”. Sale of medicines that can be used for sexual recreation, like Viagra used for erectile dysfunction, will be banned. Internet cafés will be banned as well as kite flying, cinemas, music, photography and all other forms of artistic expression, sources relayed.

MMA has the numbers to pass any such bill into law and police would be asked to implement the draconian laws under a new ministry for vice and virtue. However, and this is the slim ray of hope piercing through the dark clouds, these laws will no teeth unless they are backed by punishment. The federal government alone has the right to change the penal code and is unlikely to accept MMA’s Taliban-esque demands.

#23 arjun_m

You don`t get it do you?

Use of violence and war is reserved for certain groups based on their ``just cause``. Once it becomes a ``just cause`` then using suicide bombers against children or blowing up civilians on a highway (5 killed in J&K yesterday) is no problem.

However, western democracies should always be lashed for failing to live to their ideals. Certain CHristian groups genuinely reject war as an option and this is another excellent tool to be used to neuter the infidel. For the hindus, there is always the advice to look up to Gandhi and also concept of ahimsa which has had a high value in indic traditions.

Summary: use other groups pacifistic traditions against them in every possible way. But justify terrorism by islamist groups using every possible excuse.

#22 by temporal on February 20, 2003 1:52pm PT

As far as I know Dr. Riffat Hussain teaches at Quaid-i-Azam University, Islamabad, Pakistan. Importantly, he is not ``she``.

We have been accustomed to buying new cars for the last several thousand years. Once we owned local made car, then Hindu, then Buddhist, then Hindu again, then Islam and then some of us bough Sikh car. What is the reason to keep getting esitmates from Shariati Autos, Sourosh Body Shop, Hussein Nasr Transmission Specialists and Ali Engineer Lube and Oil change for fising this car that is falling apart and its transmission is likey to fail very soon? Instead of wasting money and time, go to Common Sense Motors and get a new one and leave your old car nearby at Holy Shity - Jerusalem Salvage Company.

Iqbal, Shariati, Soroush, Nussein Nasr are nothing new to Islam and the world. Such characters have been around durring every faltering religion and civilization. They keep the hope alive on the surface while termites keep eating it away from inside. If termites are too visible, such characters set up commissions to advice for the setting up a comittee to lay the ground work for the creation of a commission to study the breeding habits of termites.

Every century has created such `so-called` reformers in Islam knowingly too well that the strongest point about Islam is its strength and resilience against flexibility. That is why, Islam started gining rise to sects as soon as it started breathing because flexibility had no place within it.

The best way to reform Islam is to get out of it and reform yourself. Once a critical mass of these former Muslims is created, it will send shock waves to the remaining and faltering dogma. As I said few months ago, Islam has to be shaken or defeated decisively for Muslims to succeed. Islam as a retrogressive force should not be able to pull down any progressive minded Muslim in Muslim majority societies in the same way it fails among the progressive minded Muslims in the liberal and secular west.

Islam was defeated in Balakot under Syed Ahmed Barelvi and Shah Ismail around 1830. It saved northern Pakistan from Islam for 150 years until Taliban won Afghanistan. Lets hope that a decisive defeat of Taliban (including MMA) will save Pathans from falling victim to Islam for the next 150 years.

hari #25:
``However, and this is the slim ray of hope piercing through the dark clouds, these laws will no teeth unless they are backed by punishment. The federal government alone has the right to change the penal code and is unlikely to accept MMA’s Taliban-esque demands.``
I dont understand - isn`t the MMA in power in the central govt too?

It is heartening to hear praises of this liberal article from chowkies. However the ground reality is much different. A tahmed, or a Romair can support the questioning of Quran on a liberal web sight as The Chowk, but doing so on the ground in the land of the pure can prove fatal. The case in point is that of a professor who made the mistake of commenting that Mohammed was not born as a muslim.

While there seems to be some awareness in the muslim circles in the western countries and India, about the need of some reformation in muslim dogma, in the bastians of Islam the movement is in the opposite direction. It has often been mentioned in these pages that most muslims in Pakistan do not follow the mullahs, however the mullahs still control the religion life of the pakistanis. So much so that even a dictator like Musharraf has to appease them.

This is because, most muslim though quite liberal in their own life style are tolerent, even tacitily supportive of the mullahs, they have no problem in finacially supporting their cause, as long as it doesn`t affect their own life. Even a person like Jinnah, who was only casually muslim and generally secular in his outlook had no problem with opting for a seperate homeland for muslims.

IMHO, this liberal debate on reformation of Islam is not going to go any where, because who is going to bell the cat. Until the people on the street in Pakistan decide that enough is enough and mullahs and their rigid Islam has to go, nothing much is going to happen. The mullahs control the two western provinces already and I can see them making significant gains in Punjab and Sindh in the future.

It is strange to think that Iqbal or anybody in any way inspired by him will be the salvation of Muslims. But then nobody accused Muslims of being intelligent.

Ajeet #27

>This is because, most muslim though quite liberal in their own life style are tolerent,

A liberal Muslim is an oxymoron. Like fragrant shit. Take any Muslim and ask him, her five questions. The mask of liberalism will disappear. If it doesnt, other Muslims will not recognize this person as a Muslim any longer. Wherever Muslims are dominant, they will go after such a person with long blood-dripping muhammadan knives unsheathed.

The problem with Islam is not that a good person can not be born among Muslims. The problem is that in Islam Dara Shikoh will always be beheaded and killed by an Aurangzeb. The Aurangzeb will then become the torchbearer and beloved hero of Islam.

Dara Shikohs are oddities that Islam consistently and rapidly weeds out from within itself. Hoping that occasional dara shikohs will reform Islam is like hoping that a singing bird caught inside a large gas chamber will drink in all the lethal gas and replace it with fresh air.