Islam in Crisis (Part2)
Rasheed Talib February 19, 2003
#33 Posted by tahmed32 on February 20, 2003 11:37:21 pm
ajheet #27 You write ``A tahmed, or a Romair can support the questioning of Quran on a liberal web sight as The Chowk, but doing so on the ground in the land of the pure can prove fatal. ``
I dont think so. My own father wrote a book that directly distinguished between the message of the Quran vs. the mullahs (titled, ``Quranic and nonQuranic Islam`` by Brig. Nazir Ahmad, first published in 1997). The book received nothing but positive reviews in pakistani newspapers, and has even been quoted in an US journal. Not once was he even threatened by anyone, and he was often invited to speak at universities and other places within Pakistan where he openly discussed these issues (a couple of ``learned`` aalims from Islamabad university who debated these issues with him found that he could easily demonstrate, with reference to the Quran, the hollowness of some of their views. They soon learnt to avoid public debates with him since they knew their shallowness and distortions of Islam could be easily exposed. My father tdied peacefully of natural causes last September in Islamabad, with instructions that he did not wish to have a professional maulvi lead his funeral prayers. We had, instead, a good family friend and religious person whom my father had identified, lead his funeral prayers instead.
I wonder if any hindu who wrote a similar book distinguishing between the peaceful message at the core of hinduism and the evil ways of the hindu extremists in India would be safe from your extremists in India.
I dont think so. My own father wrote a book that directly distinguished between the message of the Quran vs. the mullahs (titled, ``Quranic and nonQuranic Islam`` by Brig. Nazir Ahmad, first published in 1997). The book received nothing but positive reviews in pakistani newspapers, and has even been quoted in an US journal. Not once was he even threatened by anyone, and he was often invited to speak at universities and other places within Pakistan where he openly discussed these issues (a couple of ``learned`` aalims from Islamabad university who debated these issues with him found that he could easily demonstrate, with reference to the Quran, the hollowness of some of their views. They soon learnt to avoid public debates with him since they knew their shallowness and distortions of Islam could be easily exposed. My father tdied peacefully of natural causes last September in Islamabad, with instructions that he did not wish to have a professional maulvi lead his funeral prayers. We had, instead, a good family friend and religious person whom my father had identified, lead his funeral prayers instead.
I wonder if any hindu who wrote a similar book distinguishing between the peaceful message at the core of hinduism and the evil ways of the hindu extremists in India would be safe from your extremists in India.
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#34 Posted by ferozk on February 21, 2003 12:10:44 am
There is not much, which can be said on the need for Islam to question itself. A critical re-examination within Islam is long overdue and it has to be undertaken.
Again, the question remains and is a difficult one to answer. Why is Islam so hesitant to question itself? Why is Islam, by refusing to offer a self critical analysis, propagating a sense of intellectual rigidity? Islam is, according to its own explanations the word of God given to man. In this sense, God is infallible, but man is not; why is Islam thus elevating man, a mere mortal, to a status, where his interpretations and actions cannot be questioned? No one is questioning the word of God, but there is no resistriction in Islam not to question the actions of its followers. There is no mention of a priestly class in Islam and hence, where did the offical orthodoxy of the religious preachers in Islam originate? Where did events go wrong and at what point in the history of Islam, which created this ambiguity about Islam and its what are its interpretations?
I am not a religious scholar nor do I claim to be one and thus, it is really sad and tragic that the author of this article does not interact. I wish, that he did, because he seems to possess answers to questions, which have always haunted me. I wish that he would change his mind and answer some very legitimate questions and in the process, clear some of the cow webs of confusion. I wish, but I wish in vain.
Ciao
Again, the question remains and is a difficult one to answer. Why is Islam so hesitant to question itself? Why is Islam, by refusing to offer a self critical analysis, propagating a sense of intellectual rigidity? Islam is, according to its own explanations the word of God given to man. In this sense, God is infallible, but man is not; why is Islam thus elevating man, a mere mortal, to a status, where his interpretations and actions cannot be questioned? No one is questioning the word of God, but there is no resistriction in Islam not to question the actions of its followers. There is no mention of a priestly class in Islam and hence, where did the offical orthodoxy of the religious preachers in Islam originate? Where did events go wrong and at what point in the history of Islam, which created this ambiguity about Islam and its what are its interpretations?
I am not a religious scholar nor do I claim to be one and thus, it is really sad and tragic that the author of this article does not interact. I wish, that he did, because he seems to possess answers to questions, which have always haunted me. I wish that he would change his mind and answer some very legitimate questions and in the process, clear some of the cow webs of confusion. I wish, but I wish in vain.
Ciao
#35 Posted by jay on February 21, 2003 12:10:59 am
Ajeet 27,
Tahmed will say all sorts of things, about great books, never ask him what the book contains. Ask him to post on the anonymity of chowk that ``jihad is not killing of kafirs`` then you will see him recoil like dracula from a stake. He will come back with ``jihad prohibits killing of innocents``, whic is the sama as the mullahs word, ``kill the non-innocent across the border``.
No sir the tahmeds of the world never criticise the teachings, especially the core ones like jihad. I have never seen a pakistani muslim say that hey let us not kill. no killing has to be there, it comes from the sacrifices that pakistanis do during eid. The great one takes them to heaven and no tahmed can say no to it.
Tahmed will say all sorts of things, about great books, never ask him what the book contains. Ask him to post on the anonymity of chowk that ``jihad is not killing of kafirs`` then you will see him recoil like dracula from a stake. He will come back with ``jihad prohibits killing of innocents``, whic is the sama as the mullahs word, ``kill the non-innocent across the border``.
No sir the tahmeds of the world never criticise the teachings, especially the core ones like jihad. I have never seen a pakistani muslim say that hey let us not kill. no killing has to be there, it comes from the sacrifices that pakistanis do during eid. The great one takes them to heaven and no tahmed can say no to it.
#36 Posted by harimau on February 21, 2003 6:32:34 am
Ref tahmed32 #30
[I wonder if any hindu who wrote a similar book distinguishing between the peaceful message at the core of hinduism and the evil ways of the hindu extremists in India would be safe from your extremists in India.]
All you need to do is to read the Op-Ed section of any English-language newspaper any given day. There is always somebody arguing about the meaning of Hinduism and how the BJP is perverting it.
People have gone further in the past: the followers of the pro-British, anti-Independence (sounds like the erstwhile All-India Muslim League, doesn`t it?) Justice Party changed its name to Dravida Kazhagam, used to take out pictures of Rama, Krishna, etc., garlanded with slippers in public processions. They used to give their children names like Ravana or Surpanakha to demonstrate that they wanted to have no truck with Hinduism. Just about 2 months back, their leader addressed a public meeting in Madras and said that the word ``Hindu`` meant ``thief``. You could do all this and get away with it. In fact, the Sankaracharya of Kanchi, a respected religious head, has been sued in the courts for supposedly hurting the sentiments of Dalits.
Remember that movie ``Mr and Mrs Iyer`` that was reviewd on Chowk? The reviewer thought that the movie brought out the essential humanity of people. One guy in India (a Hindu) wrote an Op-Ed piece in ``The Hindu`` saying that Mrs Iyer was merely using the Muslim guy to save her life and this was typical of upper-caste Hindu behavior that ought to be condemned, blah blah blah...
Nobody in India gives a sh!t. We are too busy trying to make a living.
We do have professional agents provocateurs in the Bajrang Dal, VHP, etc. But then, they are doing what they are doing ``to protect Hinduism``. Do you think only Islam can be in danger and needed a separate country to protect it?
[I wonder if any hindu who wrote a similar book distinguishing between the peaceful message at the core of hinduism and the evil ways of the hindu extremists in India would be safe from your extremists in India.]
All you need to do is to read the Op-Ed section of any English-language newspaper any given day. There is always somebody arguing about the meaning of Hinduism and how the BJP is perverting it.
People have gone further in the past: the followers of the pro-British, anti-Independence (sounds like the erstwhile All-India Muslim League, doesn`t it?) Justice Party changed its name to Dravida Kazhagam, used to take out pictures of Rama, Krishna, etc., garlanded with slippers in public processions. They used to give their children names like Ravana or Surpanakha to demonstrate that they wanted to have no truck with Hinduism. Just about 2 months back, their leader addressed a public meeting in Madras and said that the word ``Hindu`` meant ``thief``. You could do all this and get away with it. In fact, the Sankaracharya of Kanchi, a respected religious head, has been sued in the courts for supposedly hurting the sentiments of Dalits.
Remember that movie ``Mr and Mrs Iyer`` that was reviewd on Chowk? The reviewer thought that the movie brought out the essential humanity of people. One guy in India (a Hindu) wrote an Op-Ed piece in ``The Hindu`` saying that Mrs Iyer was merely using the Muslim guy to save her life and this was typical of upper-caste Hindu behavior that ought to be condemned, blah blah blah...
Nobody in India gives a sh!t. We are too busy trying to make a living.
We do have professional agents provocateurs in the Bajrang Dal, VHP, etc. But then, they are doing what they are doing ``to protect Hinduism``. Do you think only Islam can be in danger and needed a separate country to protect it?
#37 Posted by harish_hyd on February 21, 2003 6:32:34 am
#30 by tahmed32 on February 20, 2003 11:37pm PT
[My own father wrote a book that directly distinguished between the message of the Quran vs. the mullahs (titled, ``Quranic and nonQuranic Islam`` by Brig. Nazir Ahmad, first published in 1997.......Not once was he even threatened by anyone, and he was often invited to speak at universities and other places within Pakistan where he openly discussed these issues]
Any dumb fool could have told you that your dad wasn`t threatened simply because he was a (retired?) brigadier. For back home in your land of the pure, if anything is more feared than rampant Mullahism, it is the clout the military and military men wield. In any case, a university would be the last place you`d expect to see a Mullah in.
Do you forget the Lahore teacher (professor?) whose case is well documented by Amnesty International and is now languishing behind bars because a student alleged that he had said soemthing to the effect that the prophet had no beard before he was 40 because he wasn`t a Muslim then?
[I wonder if any hindu who wrote a similar book distinguishing between the peaceful message at the core of hinduism and the evil ways of the hindu extremists in India would be safe from your extremists in India]
Have you ever bothered to find out yourselves? No Hindu extremist (including Hindutva`s poster-boy Bal Thackeray) has ever threatened to wage Jihad to eliminate non-Hindu (kafirs?) from the face of the Earth. In any case rabble-rousers like Kuldip Nayar and Praful Bidwai, who make regular noises about India`s human rights record and the ``right-wing`` BJP`s alleged role in the Gujarat riots, and whom Pakis love to quote to embarrass India, are Hindus too.
#38 Posted by harish_hyd on February 21, 2003 6:32:34 am
[My own father wrote a book that directly distinguished between the message of the Quran vs. the mullahs (titled, ``Quranic and nonQuranic Islam`` by Brig. Nazir Ahmad, first published in 1997.......Not once was he even threatened by anyone, and he was often invited to speak at universities and other places within Pakistan where he openly discussed these issues]
Any dumb fool could have told you that your dad wasn`t threatened simply because he was a (retired?) brigadier. For back home in your land of the pure, if anything is more feared than rampant Mullahism, it is the clout the military and military men wield. In any case, a university would be the last place you`d expect to see a Mullah in.
Do you forget the Lahore teacher (professor?) whose case is well documented by Amnesty International and is now languishing behind bars because a student alleged that he had said soemthing to the effect that the prophet had no beard before he was 40 because he wasn`t a Muslim then?
[I wonder if any hindu who wrote a similar book distinguishing between the peaceful message at the core of hinduism and the evil ways of the hindu extremists in India would be safe from your extremists in India]
Have you ever bothered to find out yourselves? No Hindu extremist (including Hindutva`s poster-boy Bal Thackeray) has ever threatened to wage Jihad to eliminate non-Hindu (kafirs?) from the face of the Earth. In any case rabble-rousers like Kuldip Nayar and Praful Bidwai, who make regular noises about India`s human rights record and the ``right-wing`` BJP`s alleged role in the Gujarat riots, and whom Pakis love to quote to embarrass India, are Hindus too.
Any dumb fool could have told you that your dad wasn`t threatened simply because he was a (retired?) brigadier. For back home in your land of the pure, if anything is more feared than rampant Mullahism, it is the clout the military and military men wield. In any case, a university would be the last place you`d expect to see a Mullah in.
Do you forget the Lahore teacher (professor?) whose case is well documented by Amnesty International and is now languishing behind bars because a student alleged that he had said soemthing to the effect that the prophet had no beard before he was 40 because he wasn`t a Muslim then?
[I wonder if any hindu who wrote a similar book distinguishing between the peaceful message at the core of hinduism and the evil ways of the hindu extremists in India would be safe from your extremists in India]
Have you ever bothered to find out yourselves? No Hindu extremist (including Hindutva`s poster-boy Bal Thackeray) has ever threatened to wage Jihad to eliminate non-Hindu (kafirs?) from the face of the Earth. In any case rabble-rousers like Kuldip Nayar and Praful Bidwai, who make regular noises about India`s human rights record and the ``right-wing`` BJP`s alleged role in the Gujarat riots, and whom Pakis love to quote to embarrass India, are Hindus too.
#39 Posted by tahmed32 on February 21, 2003 10:08:05 am
harimau #38 I am glad that there are people pointing out the evil ways of hindu extremists in India.
I find you last sentence somewhat confusing: ``We do have professional agents provocateurs in the Bajrang Dal, VHP, etc. But then, they are doing what they are doing ``to protect Hinduism``. Do you think only Islam can be in danger and needed a separate country to protect it? ``
It seems to me that you do not consider these professional troublemakers (excuse me, my French is a bit weak) to be mere criminals, but merely ``protecting hinduism`` and therefore are convinced that their actions are justified. Please correct me if I am wrong in my understanding of what you wrote.
I find you last sentence somewhat confusing: ``We do have professional agents provocateurs in the Bajrang Dal, VHP, etc. But then, they are doing what they are doing ``to protect Hinduism``. Do you think only Islam can be in danger and needed a separate country to protect it? ``
It seems to me that you do not consider these professional troublemakers (excuse me, my French is a bit weak) to be mere criminals, but merely ``protecting hinduism`` and therefore are convinced that their actions are justified. Please correct me if I am wrong in my understanding of what you wrote.
#40 Posted by tahmed32 on February 21, 2003 10:31:02 am
harish #37 Thank you for informing me of who is safe and who is not safe in Pakistan. You are obviously more knowledgable than I am about conditions within Pakistan.
I also gather from your post that there ARE no mischief makers among hindus, that even Thakeray is OK. I assume then that the chap who shot Gandhi did so through an accident. That the muslims killed in Gujrat were merely being executed by the state for killing hindus at Godhra. Your post is most re-assuring that there are men of good sense representing India on chowk. After reading the likes of Jay and not-a-slave I had thought that all sensible Indians had long ago left chowk.
I also gather from your post that there ARE no mischief makers among hindus, that even Thakeray is OK. I assume then that the chap who shot Gandhi did so through an accident. That the muslims killed in Gujrat were merely being executed by the state for killing hindus at Godhra. Your post is most re-assuring that there are men of good sense representing India on chowk. After reading the likes of Jay and not-a-slave I had thought that all sensible Indians had long ago left chowk.
#41 Posted by mohar11 on February 21, 2003 12:11:32 pm
#29 by sameerJB
//..Islam has to be shaken or defeated decisively for Muslims to succeed..//
Islamic Apologists, please note: sameerJB is yet another Islam-hater. He thinks the beautiful religion of Islam must be ``defeated``.
Go get`im, tigers - declare a fatwa at least.
//..Islam has to be shaken or defeated decisively for Muslims to succeed..//
Islamic Apologists, please note: sameerJB is yet another Islam-hater. He thinks the beautiful religion of Islam must be ``defeated``.
Go get`im, tigers - declare a fatwa at least.
#42 Posted by mohar11 on February 21, 2003 12:11:32 pm
#34 by ferozk
//..why is Islam thus elevating man, a mere mortal, to a status, where his interpretations and actions cannot be questioned?..//
Are you saying that Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) was fallible, could have made mistakes like any other human being? Wow!! You must be a Islam-hater.
+++
//...Why is Islam so hesitant to question itself? ..//
Because as soon as anybody does that, apologists and mullahs pounce upon them. You can see a sample of that right here in chowk.
//..why is Islam thus elevating man, a mere mortal, to a status, where his interpretations and actions cannot be questioned?..//
Are you saying that Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) was fallible, could have made mistakes like any other human being? Wow!! You must be a Islam-hater.
+++
//...Why is Islam so hesitant to question itself? ..//
Because as soon as anybody does that, apologists and mullahs pounce upon them. You can see a sample of that right here in chowk.
#43 Posted by temporal on February 21, 2003 12:11:33 pm
sameer 29:
“Iqbal, Shariati, Soroush, Nussein Nasr are nothing new to Islam and the world. Such characters have been around durring every faltering religion and civilization.”
…there has never been a dearth of people who have been claiming this…right from the days of Muhammed (saw)…the ‘pseudo’ muslims embracing islam as a religion of convenience …and down each century to the current one…and yet those paltry few beelievers have grown to be a billion plus…
…the thinking animal known as man has been looking at the stars at night and has been mulling over his and humanity’s fate since time immemorial…you, me and other here and elsewhere are not the only ones who ponder…this has been going on in the past and will continue to happen in future…even Buddha went in the jungles to ponder…therefore it is wrong to give off the impression that a religion (read Islam) is at a dead end…as mark twain said once in another context…any news of its ‘demise’ are exaggerated!…
“Islam was defeated in Balakot under Syed Ahmed Barelvi and Shah Ismail …” spanning 1500 years this was a minor hiccup not a decisive defeat…Islam has taken the best Mongols could afford and bounced back…
…you write “As I said few months ago, Islam has to be shaken or defeated decisively for Muslims to succeed”…
…and as I have written before…in a manner am thankful to 9/11 and mr obl…they have given an impetus for the ‘renewal’…and ‘renewal’ it will be whether on sympathetic terms (read a resurgence from within) or unsympathetic terms (read a resurgence from without)
…in this perhaps we are more in agreement than disagreement…
rgds,
t
“Iqbal, Shariati, Soroush, Nussein Nasr are nothing new to Islam and the world. Such characters have been around durring every faltering religion and civilization.”
…there has never been a dearth of people who have been claiming this…right from the days of Muhammed (saw)…the ‘pseudo’ muslims embracing islam as a religion of convenience …and down each century to the current one…and yet those paltry few beelievers have grown to be a billion plus…
…the thinking animal known as man has been looking at the stars at night and has been mulling over his and humanity’s fate since time immemorial…you, me and other here and elsewhere are not the only ones who ponder…this has been going on in the past and will continue to happen in future…even Buddha went in the jungles to ponder…therefore it is wrong to give off the impression that a religion (read Islam) is at a dead end…as mark twain said once in another context…any news of its ‘demise’ are exaggerated!…
“Islam was defeated in Balakot under Syed Ahmed Barelvi and Shah Ismail …” spanning 1500 years this was a minor hiccup not a decisive defeat…Islam has taken the best Mongols could afford and bounced back…
…you write “As I said few months ago, Islam has to be shaken or defeated decisively for Muslims to succeed”…
…and as I have written before…in a manner am thankful to 9/11 and mr obl…they have given an impetus for the ‘renewal’…and ‘renewal’ it will be whether on sympathetic terms (read a resurgence from within) or unsympathetic terms (read a resurgence from without)
…in this perhaps we are more in agreement than disagreement…
rgds,
t
#44 Posted by sattar2 on February 21, 2003 12:11:33 pm
Tahmed Sahib,
The book that you mentiond ... is it possible for me to get a copy of it? I reside in the Bay Area (northern california) and would gladly pay the price and shipping/handling costs ... in advance if needed.
Your input will be much appreciated.
Asad
#45 Posted by arjun_m on February 21, 2003 12:11:33 pm
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#46 Posted by tahmed32 on February 21, 2003 4:02:48 pm
arjun #43 I am not sure if destruction of idols is what I had in mind. I was thinking more in lines of a book that drew the line between the peaceful message that lies at the core of hinduism (as it does at the core of all the world`s great religions) vs. the violent ways of hindu extremists.
#47 Posted by tahmed32 on February 21, 2003 4:02:48 pm
sattar2 #44 The book is in its second edition, being published by Vanguard (Pvt) Ltd. 2001 in Pakistan. Their email address is vbl@brain.net.pk, telephone Lahore 7243783 and 7243779. The price is Rs. 395. The publishing company is I think run by Najm Sethi (well known editor of Friday Times).
I would be send you a copy if you are unable to get one directly from them, but am down to my last couple of copies at this time, and am trying to get a few more copies. Let me know if you have trouble getting hold of the book. You may also find in through the library system.
Thanks for your interest in the book.
I would be send you a copy if you are unable to get one directly from them, but am down to my last couple of copies at this time, and am trying to get a few more copies. Let me know if you have trouble getting hold of the book. You may also find in through the library system.
Thanks for your interest in the book.
#48 Posted by Ajeet on February 21, 2003 4:57:26 pm
There is a program on Palistan on PBS now. Please watch.
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