Islam in Crisis (Part2)

...here we go again...this has all been said before on chowk, by all of you in fact...don`t you all get bored?...

cnn reports latest violence in karachi:

8 shites killed by sunni extremists(ofcourse, it is not pogrom(it is called
sectarism as per praful bidwai, uncle mushy...)) if muslims kill fellow muslims, then god help other non-muslims.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/asiapcf/south/02/22/pakistan.mosque.ap/index.html

ferozk,

#55

Outstanding post!

When I read posts re Islam as interpreted by you, tahmed et all, your religion impresses me to no end. I`m glad at the way you addressed mohar---your self identity, self esteem is the product of the teachings of your parents, teachers, ``church/mosque`` etc etc. In other words your/our superegos shape our ``ego``. DOESNT MATTER what ``other people`` think of you!-be that person a ``true`` muslim or a bigotted idol worshipping kafir.

{{Mohar11, who died and made you my judge, jury and excutioner?}}

I havent read mohar`s ``accusations`` ...but it doesnt matter...in my life`s experience, the people who are the LEAST qualified to judge others, tend to do a heck of a lot of judging...& very LOUDLY, at that! You are too polite; I would have said ``Who fu*king died & made you God?!`` :))

So when a hindu bigot like harimou or a muslim bigot like Waqarali mian (btw, has he dissappeared, again?) dislike me cos of who they think I am; I take great pride in telling myself ``Jeeze, if these buttheads turn out to be right & their souls go to ``Heaven``, I`ll GLADLY burn in ``Hell`` in everlasting damnation``!!... I mean, I`ll GLADLY go there hopping & skipping, barefooted, over burning coals, with an idol of penis god tucked under my left armpit & chomping at a cholesterol laden big Mac in my right hand. BTW, I`ve heard there`s an ``all-you-can-eat`` free buffet ...all the Chinese food & dal bhaji you can stuff in your inflamed red-hot stomach...EVERYDAY! in Hell.

One more thing, please tell hamidm that the beer in Hell is boiling hot & sipped like chai ...& fois gras can only be slathered on a piece of idli before its consumed. Cant help it, Hell is for invited guests ONLY! No cynical Islamists looking for free drinks allowed!

Ferozek

``In finality, I will be judged by Allah and it is His verdict, on my status as a Muslim, which is final and binding and not your personal opinions about the virtues of who is a Muslim and to decide what they should think!``

My friend, your words are comming straight from the heart. More power to you. May the spirit of curiosity and a healthy sceptism triumph over the dead dogma...

re: shrinker

...dude, can your rambling already...

>Take Romair himself. Presumably, he rates himself as educated, as solution rather than problem.

What can you about the genius of a person who believes in Quran because of its `scientific knowledge?`

saxena,

wassa matter peabrain?...felt left out that I didnt insult you?

since youre reading this message, let me ask you something...a nagging thought that even kept intruding my mind while I was swimming among sharks in the Carribean---

PROMISE me you are not really f*cking with my mind; posing as a ``waqaralisheikh``...he comes & goes like one of your wet dreams...We DO know you are nerdy enough with computers to upload fake photos on Chowk...& a weasel like you is not beyond coming up with an off-the-wall biodata like a fictitiuos ``waqar`` from a madrassah...JUST to awaken latent fantasies you & I had when we were teenagers about..er...ahem ..``proper harem etiquette``...

Dunno why, but when he said things like YOU CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH!!..he reminded me of a certain jingoistic 20 something butthole that I love to hate on Chowk...

Chowk Staff,
I`m reeeaaally reeeaaallly upset that articles are zipping by at such a rush..rush rate...
cant even have a decent intra-hindu khunnas-ka grudge fight...

ferozk #55 After reading praise of your post to mohar11 from shankar, I went back and read your post. It is indeed a great rejoinder to mohar11 with whom I have had a couple of interactions, and as a result have concluded that I have here a man who is unwilling to accept my right to be (1) a muslim, (2) to be comfortable with being a muslim, and (3) to be comfortable with other people being whatever faith (or lack thereof) to which they belong.
Like brother Jay and some other characters on chowk, mohar11 will permit me any two choices, but not all three. ;-)

#71 by tahmed32
//.... It is indeed a great rejoinder to mohar11 ,....//

You wish. read my post #58.

#71 by tahmed32
//...I have here a man who is unwilling to accept my right to be (1) a muslim, (2) to be comfortable with being a muslim, ...//

Paranoia gets Ahmed Mian!

Get a grip on yourself man - nobody is out there to get you! You can be whatever you want to be, nobody cares enough about you to deny you anything.

But then this so typical of closet-mullahs. As soon as they sniff somebody trying to blow their cover - they start crying wolf, start beating their chests how muslims are under fire, Islam is in danger, how the whole world is waging war against muslims.

Ref sameerJB #62

[I also do not consider solitary contemplations, meditations in caves or under tree or top of Mount Sinai or hanging in the well upside down for three days or holding breath for 15 minutes underwater or standing forty days on one foot in the icy waters somewhere in the foothill of Himalaya as superior service to humanity than a person who is directly contributing to humanity by working and doing rational things for normal living and those whose work has contributed towards uplifting living conditions.]

On the other hand, when a yogi who has spent years meditating in a cave in the Himalayas demonstrates to a Harvard medical team his ability to control his autonomic nervous system at will -- which directly contradicts everything the scientific world knows, or when a Buddhist lama spends a winter night outside in the snow in McLeodganj and demonstrates that he can not only preserve his body heat but can actually raise his body temperature, maybe, just maybe, the scientific world can learn a little bit more about the human body from these people who have not worked towards uplifting the living conditions of other human beings.

By the way, those examples are not made up; they are factual.

PS. Don`t ask the Shrink about it. Dr. Dickshit is a practitioner of voodoo. He wouldn`t have a clue what I am talking about. Nor can he read medical journals.

Although it is obvious that our RELIGION has an ALL Knowledgeable God -- an All knowledgeable Prophet -- and an all knowledgeable BOOK -

-- where for the true seekers with nothing else to do -- answers to all questions -- of past, present and future matters -- are buried -- begging to be discovered -- in our EASTERN ISLAM --

in the WEST -- unfortunately we don’t have the time, the energy or the insight -- and the means to dig up prescriptions from Quran -- as to how to make Daisy cutters -- Pentiums and the Antibiotics -- for those we already have labs and lab scientists.

it is clear from the avalanche of SELF-CRTICISM by Western Muslims intellectuals -- that there is a dire NEED to REFORM Islam - for the Muslims and their current progeny -- who have chosen WEST instead of EAST for their future generations.

It is becoming clear that if we have to live in the West as Muslims -- we HAVE to REFORM ISLAM somehow or others --

God of Western Muslims has to REPAIR some of HIS 1400 year old FIVE pillars of Islam -- and add some NEW PILLARS -- for the stability of that ever burgeoning structure of Islam -- if it has to become a Western skyscraper.

so -- here are the 10 commandments for the new Western Islam -- reformed of its vestiges of Eastern backwardness:

thou shall accept Islam by reciting the Kalma orally -- and in writing -- before an INS official and then register with the FBI as a Muslim.

thou shall NOT do Namaz FIVE times a day -- only ONE time a week on SUNDAY -- not Friday

thou shall fast during Ramadan during weekends only -- thou must drink WATER preferably Gatorade if nothing else.

thou shall give ONE FOURTH of th annual income -- before taxes -- for Zakat -- to be invested in science education and teaching of Evolution -- not in Jihadi organizations.

Thou shall not do the demeaning SIJDA -- especially thy women -- like a bunch of illiterate Arab Pygmies.

thou shall free thy women from the Kitchen, their hair from the Hijab -- and free them from their house arrest -- and free thy women to LEAD thy Namaz

thou shall sit on chairs and desk in the Masjid to pray -- NOT on the floor like Arab Bedouins.

thou shall not make hajj pilgrimage as an annual ritual -- thou shall do Umra all year as camera tourist -- fully clothed -- and without running helter-skelter -- and cluttering the place with stone pebbles.

thou shall not eat on floor in house parties -- not eat with hands -- and not segregate thy women to one corner -- and thy men in the living room.

thou shall read and recite Quran in Arabic -- daily before going to bed -- but NEVER read the translation or the `turjuma`.....

thus -- this new breed of Western Muslims lived happily ever after.... with the New Western Islam flourishing in the Civilized Western World ....

hasan

Although it is obvious that our RELIGION has an ALL Knowledgeable God -- an All knowledgeable Porphet -- and an all knowledgeable BOOK -- where for the true seekers with nothing else to do -- answers to all questions -- of past, present and future matters -- are buried begging to be discovered -- in our EASTERN ISLAM --

in the WEST -- unfortunately we don`t have the time, the energyor the insight -- and the means to dig up prescriptions from Quran -- as to how to make Daisy cutters -- Pentiums and Antibiotics -- foor those we alread have labs and lab scientists.

it is clear from the avalanche of SELF-CRTICISM by Western Muslims intellctuals that there is a dire NEED to REFORM Islam - for the Muslims and their current progeny -- who have chosen WEST instead of EAST for their future generations.

It is becoming clear that if we have to live in the West as Muslims -- we HAVE to REFORM ISLAM somehow or others --

God of Western Muslims has to REPAIR some of HIS 1400 year old FIVE pillars of Islam -- and add some NEW PILLARS -- for the stability of that ever burgeonng structure of Islm -- if it has to become a Western skyscraper.

so -- here are the 10 commandments for the new Western Islam reformed of its vestiges of Eastern backwardness:

thou shall accept Islam by reciting the kalma orally and in writing before an INS official and then register wih the FBI as a Muslim.

thou shall not do Namaz FIVE times a day -- only ONE time a week on SUNDAY -- not Friday

thou shall fast during Ramadan during weekends only -- thou must drink WATER preferably Gatorade if nothing else.

thou shall give ONE FOURTH of your annual income -- before taxes -- for Zakat -- to be invested in science education and teachig of Evolution -- not in Jihadi organisations.

Thou shall not do the demeaning SIJDA -- especially thy women -- like a bunch of iliterate arab Pygmies.

thou shall free thy women from the Kitchen, their hair from hijab -- and free them from their house arrest -- and free thy women to LEAD thy Namaz

thou shall sit on chairs and desk in the masjid to pray -- NOT on the floor like arab bedouins.

thou shall not make hajj pilgrimage as an annual ritual -- thou shall do Umra all year as a camera tourist -- fully clothed -- and without running helter skelter -- and cluttering the place with stone pebbles.

thou shall not eat on floor in house parties -- not eat with hands and not segregate thy women to one corner and the men in the living room.

thou shall read and recite Quran in arabic -- daily before going to bed -- but not read the translationor the `turjuma`.....

thus this new breed of Western Muslims lived happily ever after.... with the New Western Islam flourising in the Civilize Western World ....

hasan

mohar11 #74 You have beautiifully proved my point: By accepting (1) and (2) of my points but dropping my point (3) and calling me a ``closet mullah`` instead, you have just proved exactly what I wrote to Ferozk in my post #71.
In fact I was going to provide exactly this ``closet mullah`` charge as an example, but decided to leave it out. You obliged and demonstrated this on your own anyway. Petty minded people like you and Jay are damned predictable!!

RE: Sadna # 65

I agree with you! To be perfectly honest, I am slowly, but painfully late, coming to realization that hypocricy is the perfect coda to ignorance and hate and hate mongers really thrive on a lack of knowledge to preach and propagate their own skewed visions.

I have read Arthur Miller`s play, the Crucible.

Re: Mohar11 # 58

If I misjudged your comments, then I apologise to you.

Ciao

Re: saminasha # 60

Pakistan will experience reforms once people start to question.

Questions will come, because the present state of affairs is based on insupportable conterdictions. The plight of Pakistan has been that its population has periodically opted for the easy path and has seldom challenged the official wisdom. There is a marked hypocricy in Pakistan, which belies all our claims to the contary and remember this, Pakistan is a country and not a nation. Once we start thinking like a nation and start becoming loyal towards the creed for, which Pakistan was created, this place of misfortune and blighted souls will progress.

The creed for, which Pakistan was created has nothing to with religion. Pakistan was created on economic rationales and that was to end the economic apartheid under, which the Muslims of India were suffering. In order to understand this argument, one has to review the situation pertaining to the partition, and its eventual anullment, of Bengal. Muslim League was created in 1906 to safeguard the economic interests of the Muslims of India and not to ask for a territorial seperation based on religion. Once we go back to the original intentions of Pakistan, it becomes clear that religion was used, for the first time, in 1949 by Liaquat Ali Khan and it was offically brought into the matrix of state power by the consitution of 1956, as a means to legitimize the power by catering to a politically powerful constituency - the religious lobby.

The rise of Islam and Islamic militancy in Pakistan has been nourished, over the years, by the triad of the feudals, the military and politicans, with the abetted help of the bureaucracy, to legally monopolize non dejure power. Pakistan was a secular state from August 14, 1947 to September 11, 1948 and a democratic state from 1947 to 1958. In order to remake Pakistan as a secular democratic state, the raison d` etre of the military for wielding power has to be removed and that means settling the issue of Kashmir, which sanctions its overbearing involvment in domestic politics. The bureaucracy has to be depolitized and delinked from its self-perpetuating nexus of military, political and feudal inter-connections.

Lastly, as you said, religion has to be removed from the concourse of politics by educating the people that secularism is not a paean to athesism, but a tolerance for all religions in politics. However to attain this aim, politics and the mechanisms of politics in Pakistan have to divorce themselves from their religious crutch. This requires a political will to directly challenge the mantra of the religious lobby and unless this will is forthcoming, reforms will not be possible in Pakistan. The best way to affect this change is to remove the levers of opinions from the hands of ill-informed and ill educated religious preachers. The only manner, which foresakes violence, is to ask the people a question as to when did Islam sanction an offical clergy and to answer this question, Islam has to be re-taught in its spiritual sense and not in its political machinations.

In other words, public opinion has to be educated and though this education, change introdouced. Now ask yourself this question and you will understand the problem - who controls public opinion in Pakistan? Change in Pakistan has to come from the villages, because they, not the cities, are the center of political gravity in Pakistan.

Ciao