Islam in Crisis (Part2)

sameer,

{If unmarried Pakistanis can not even have erection without worrying about sin...}

Maybe I`m misunderstanding you or tripping over my own naievity...
unmarried Pakistani lads are told that an erection is sinful?!

& what happens when they wake up first thing in the morning?
do they have to fall on their knees & beg Allah`s forgiveness for having sinned?...or dont Pakistani guys wakeup with a hard-on?:))

Times like this I`d really want an opinion from Waqar....

shankar: It is erction with erotic thoughts that is prohibited. If Islam had a way to control early morning natural erection, it would have prohibited that too.

Nasah (#64) says:
``we the Muslims have a perfect Religion -- a perfect Prophet --a perfect Book -- and a Perfect God -- perfectly unchangng and perfectly immutable for --ALL TIMES TO COME -- Eternity -- Infinity.``
Logically, my friend, their followers should be the perfect people (ummah). A tree is judged by its fruits and a school by its graduates. Muslims are characterised by their ignorance, corruption, propensity to lie and cheat. These traits are so evident that one must be totally blind not to accept them. Still, to claim as Nasah does, is like arguing that a tree which produces rotten fruits is of the best breed or a school whose students consistently do poorly in exams and engage in thuggery and cheating is the best school in town!
Who are you trying to deceive? Others? It won`t work. But it should be obvious to Muslims by now that they are living in a dream-world totally out of synch with reality and the modern world, living in denial. With this attitude, there is no hope of any improvement, Muslims seem ``perfectly unchangng and perfectly immutable`` in their retrograde condition.
In this world they find salvation by fleeing to western countries (for which they will do anything). If their performance in this world is any guide, it is to be seriously doubted that a paradise awaits them in the next world. But even if they were despatched to paradise by God, they are sure to make a mess of it (look what they have done to the many resource-rich countries of the Middle East!). Surely Muslims can do credit to their religion by personal and collective self-improvement, not by repetitive, baseless bragging about the superiority of their religion.

sameerJB #98 An early morning erection is a sign that you dont get enough of it. My sympathies.

tahmed,

{{An early morning erection is a sign that you dont get enough of it. My sympathies}}

Men get erections during the REM phase of sleep. Its a natural physiological response. Since the last phase of a normal sleep pattern is usually an REM phase (most of the time); men wake up with an erection--ESP young men. Your ``theory``, I`m afraid, is an ``old wives tale``..er, no pun intended:)

sameer,

{{It is erction with erotic thoughts that is prohibited...}}

I`m curious about Islam`s view about human sexuality. I`m being serious! You seem to suggest that Islam says one has to actively suppress & repress erotic thoughts before marriage. I`m assuming thats one of the reasons muslims generally marry when theyre relatively young(er).

Sex between husband & wife is ``holy`` in every religion & I`m taking the liberty to assume that its holy in Islam too. I mean, considering how fast the muslim world is reproducing, let me take a wild guess & assume that true muslims must be engaging in a heck of a lot of sex---ofcourse with their wife(s) ONLY!.

Is it considered somehow offensive or improper to talk about sex? I mean, how do muslims learn about the ``birds & the bees``?--esp muslim women? I`m asking you this cos I`m treating a Bangladeshi 22 yr old lady whose parents are both highly educated professionals. I was intrigued when she told me that her parents (devout muslims) never ever talked about sex with their children. Is this cultural or ``religious`` or somehow not considered ``appropriate``? or is she an exception to the rule?

In the same vein, (& I`m not being a disrespectful wise-ass; now)...is there some sort of an ``etiquette`` that Islam has prescribed when a man has more than one wife? Please dont call me a pervert; I dont mean to be. Just a ``professionally based`` question which I think every good shrink ought to be aware of:)

Shankar: My post was not exclusively about sex. Dont let Islam enter your underwear also implies the Islamic way of wiping ass to with left hand only and the limitation on the size of pubic hair.

I also specifically mentioned erectioin of unmarried men and to the best of my knowledge early morning erection has to do with reflux response of body waking up from sleep cycle and nothing to do with hormones level.

What has god or religion or civilization to do with such nonsensical intrusion into underwears?

Your understanding about early marriages among Muslims is right. It has in large part to do with stopping sinful thinking and erections. The sex with wife is holy according to Islam - referred to as sunnat meaning that since Muhammad did it, so do you. However, either because of local exaggerations of subcontinent Muslims or to extend further control over the lives of Muslims, sex with wives also have to abide by certain rules such as not seeing vagina, sex in the dark and missionary positioin only. The curiosity about exploring sex is not appreciated or allowed.

There is a paradox in considering sex as sunnat too. On one side it is highly recommended for married couples down to ejaculation within vagina and on the otherhand it breaks ablution and taking shower or washing with water with left hand is necessary before redoing wuzu. Once in the middle of wuzu for morning prayer, an erection or desiring to have sex again has to wait after mornng prayer. Best thing is to not wait too long after sex to pray to god. Waiting for an hour might mean double-mindedness - to choose between sex and fajar prayer.

With such intrusive injunctions and practices, ranging from thinking about sex for unmarried as a sin to stoning one to death for having sex before marriage, coupled with absolute taboo nature of sex as subject and empirical curiosity in society, most parents are in no position to teach their children even the basics of sex. Now, it has become possible to learn from media and society but parents are still reluctant to teach anything about it except the sinful nature of sex outside marriage bond.

Not only sex, masturbation is also considered lower category sin. The general feeling is that sin of masturbation is easily forgiven by god as well as it does not come under the classification of sex. I bet, the masturbatioin rate at madrassahs might be the lowest among that age group anywhere in the world because of the fear of commiting sin by thinking about sex and having erection as a resut. However, I knew fellow Muslims during teenage years who would masturbate regularly with praying five times a day also and avoiding masturbation during month of ramazan. They would make sure not to face west due to Kaaba direction while masturbating.

This is mostly generalization. The exceptions are on the rise in the modern times. Notice, Samina Wahid definitely knows all about it and even can write freely about it in ``Frost Bite``.

#101 by shankar on February 26, 2003 7:01am PT
tahmed,

I`m assuming thats one of the reasons muslims generally marry when theyre relatively young(er).



Is it considered somehow offensive or improper to talk about sex? I mean, how do muslims learn about the ``birds & the bees``?--esp muslim women? I`m asking you this cos I`m treating a Bangladeshi 22 yr old lady whose parents are both highly educated professionals. I was intrigued when she told me that her parents (devout muslims) never ever talked about sex with their children. Is this cultural or ``religious`` or somehow not considered ``appropriate``? or is she an exception to the rule?

In the same vein, (& I`m not being a disrespectful wise-ass; now)...is there some sort of an ``etiquette`` that Islam has prescribed when a man has more than one wife? Please dont call me a pervert; I dont mean to be. Just a ``professionally based`` question which I think every good shrink ought to be aware of:)

------------------------------------------------------------------
Shanker

NOT Noras father


Whether Hindu or Muslim or Christian or Parsi or German while studying in India no body has girl friend to unload on...........

Even here whether Bangladeshi or Indian or German immigrant no body gets sex education at home .First thing,.... in every American family for good reson Sex isnt a `Lakers game or Michael Jordan` that you can talk from locker room to dinner table REGARDLESS OF ETHNIC ORIGIN...


So put a lid to your curiosity of finding or inventing anything new.Many of my class mate married in India while in college.Many didnt .But none had sex i know b/c we talked all the time.

If your patient is conning you by familiar line ``iam poor deprived backward immigrant who dont have all that the white american has b.f. sex educationetc etc.``No children like to hear from there parent anywayze over school consellor & teachers .When one fouls up i they talk to gullible naive DESI like you b/c she knows you like the back of her hand.If you are dumb to have sexual contact in School & in Adolescent nothing can give you wisdom not even education.Like Umer M said Sameer may be Knowledgeable but never WISE !!!Knowing memorising lot of facts dontmake you wise to use it responsibly.

talking about sex/sex education among Muslims... this varies according to local customs and beliefs. where i grew up, in a muslim country, sex education was provided in biology classes. it was also discussed by religious teachers in detail. sex, as we all know, has to do with biology. on the other hand, the taboos, prohobitions, practices, and beliefs regarding sex can be attributed to culture and religion.

when it comes to thinking. as i recall, based on what my religious teachers taught me, there is no restriction in thinking. you can think about anything, that is what thought is for. what is prohibited is the acting on the thoughts where the act itself is prohibited. if you think about something and you don`t do it (act upon it) there is no harm done. after all, it is very human to think.

shankar #101 Damn! There goes another piece of useful evidence a man could use when suggesting more sex. :-)
As for what muslims think - I think you are letting these hindu-muslim discussions, which see everything on the basis of religious differeces, get to you. Views on sex differ (and I think you will agree as a psychiatrist) not between hindus vs. muslims vs. jews vs.... They only differ between men (less romance, more action) vs. women (more romance, delayed reaction).

The Dean of the Daring Democrats -- ladies and gentlemen -- the NEXT PRESIDENT of the United States -- Former Senator from Vermont -- Dr. Howard Dean:

````On Friday and Saturday, seven of the eight announced Democratic presidential candidates (all but Sen. John Kerry of Massachusetts, who is still recovering from prostate cancer surgery) showed up at the Hyatt Regency hotel on Capitol Hill to test-market their messages to the party faithful.

....at this point, there are at least two tiers of candidates.

In the first tier, there are Sens. Kerry, Joe Lieberman (Conn.), and John Edwards (N.C.), and Rep. Richard Gephardt (Mo.).

The second tier would be led by former Vermont Sen. Howard Dean, and also include the Rev. Al Sharpton, former Sen. Carol Moseley-Braun and Rep. Dennis Kucinich.

One of the things the first tier has in common - other than proven abilities to raise cash, national profiles, and first-rate campaign staffs - is that they all supported the resolution last year authorizing President Bush to use military force against Iraq.

In their speeches, these candidates seemed almost apologetic about their positions that Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein must be disarmed by force if necessary.

``Now I know that there are a lot of you who don`t agree with me about this,`` Edwards, son of a mill worker, said, relegating his Iraq position to a few words seemingly tacked on to the end of his speech. ``I do believe that Saddam Hussein needs to be disarmed, including, if necessary, the use of military force. He has chemical and biological weapons. He`s used them in the past. We cannot let him have nuclear capability.``

Silence.

Lieberman, who sought to establish his bona fides by talking about his travels to Mississippi in 1964 to fight for the right of blacks to vote, said of Iraq: ``Now, my friends, to protect the safety of the American people and the credibility of the United Nations, Iraq must disarm - peacefully if possible, by force if necessary. Saddam Hussein`s weapons of mass destruction must be destroyed sooner than later, because sooner or later, if we do not, they will be used against us.``

Silence.

Gephardt, son of a milk truck driver, jumped into the Iraq issue near the beginning of his speech, seemingly to just get it out of the way: ``Before I start, I want to address the question of foreign policy in Iraq, because I know it`s on everyone`s mind. I believe we must disarm Saddam Hussein, and I`m proud that I wrote the resolution. It helped lead the president to finally make his case to the United Nations.``

Silence. Well, almost. One fellow in the back yelled, ``shame.``

The other four candidates who spoke made their opposition to Bush`s policy on Iraq a major issue - and at least one of them will likely enter the first tier of candidates because of it, given the hardening opposition to a military strike among the party rank and file.
____________________________________________________
At this point, that candidate seems to be Dean, a physician with an unabashedly liberal message, strong speaking ability, good looks and aggressive style.
______________________________________________________
Dean`s speech on Friday was among the best of the bunch, if for no other reason than its audacity.

He muttered only one or two lines of pleasantries before getting right to the punch, challenging the leadership of his party (and ostensibly two of the people, Lieberman and Gephardt) who spoke before him.

``What I want to know is why in the world the Democratic Party leadership is supporting the president`s unilateral attack on Iraq …

What I want to know is why are Democratic Party leaders supporting tax cuts …

What I want to know is why we`re fighting in Congress about the patients` bill of rights when the Democratic Party ought to be standing up for health care for every single American man, woman and child in this country …

What I want to know is why our folks are voting for the president`s No Child Left Behind bill that leaves every child behind, every teacher behind, every school board behind and every property taxpayer behind

… (applause) …

I`m Howard Dean, and I`m here to represent the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party.``

Wild applause/standing ovation.
(Washington Post)

______________________________________________________
thanks Washington Post for introducing this brilliant Presidental Star to the American Public tired of fascist mediocrity -- being sold as Nazi patriotism --

thanks again WP

here is ONE physician -- who will VOTE for and work for the Physician Senator Howard Dean of Vermont -- any day any time rain or snow -- to be the next PRESIDENT of -- MY United States of America...

remember the name folks -- the next President of the United States -- senator Howard Dean of Vermont ....

Ref Ashit Urshit Dickshit, W.D. #101

[tahmed,

{{An early morning erection is a sign that you dont get enough of it. My sympathies}}

Men get erections during the REM phase of sleep. Its a natural physiological response. Since the last phase of a normal sleep pattern is usually an REM phase (most of the time); men wake up with an erection--ESP young men. Your ``theory``, I`m afraid, is an ``old wives tale``..er, no pun intended:) ]

I have maintained all along that you are more likely to be a janitor in a psychiatric hospital than the doctor you claim to be. I said in a recent post that you cannot read and understand articles in medical journals.

The proof was not hard to come by.

From

http://www.sfn.org/content/Publications/BrainBriefings/rem_sleep.html

``Scientists found that brain activity during REM sleep begins in the pons, a structure in the brainstem, and neighboring midbrain regions. The pons sends signals to the thalamus and to the cerebral cortex, which is responsible for most thought processes. It also sends signals to turn off motor neurons in the spinal cord, causing a temporary paralysis that prevents movement.``

From

http://www.epub.org.br/cm/n02/mente/rem_i.htm

``In the REM sleep, the individual seems to be more awaken than asleep, however the body (except for the eye muscles) is immobilized.``

Please explain how, if the muscles in the body are body is immobilized during REM, how one can get an erection.

The early morning erection has more to do with the pressure of a full bladder than with REM sleep.

You can always get back in the good graces of Pakistanis by kissing their collective a$$ on Chowk. Your posing as a doctor will be forgiven.

Oh, my God! Don`t tell me your degree is in Unani Medicine. Your degree then would fit your personality well: BUMS (Bachelor of Unani Medical Science).

tahmed,

{{Damn! There goes another piece of useful evidence a man could use when suggesting more sex. :-) }}

Yaay!! And all this time I thought only hindu men had to beg their wives...I mean....``suggest more sex``...tsk tsk..the things we poor men have to do to satisfy our carnal needs. Sometimes I think when women talk about their ``famous`` headaches; its a code word for their husbands to take a cold shower before going to bed:(

One of my patients has a very pretty wife AND she`s good natured...& the idiot is having an affair! He`s bought both his wife AND his girlfriend to the office in separate sessions (the 2 women dont know about each other!). The irony is that the girlfriend (in my book) is pretty ugly.

I asked him (in a session-- when he came in alone)...why in the WORLD would he do such a thing?! He gave me the most incredible answer to explain this unfortunate situation. He shrugged his shoulder & said..``listen, doc, if a guy eats filet mignon everyday; sometimes he yearns for a greasy cheeseburger; OK!``

I didnt know whether to get up & smack him (he needed that more than any pill I could give him) or to laugh out aloud. Later on, when I relayed this incident to my wife (who is also my office manager), she asked me why I DIDNT smack him?! I said ``but... but... hon, he`s my patient; how can I do that?!`` Dunno why, then the Ayatollah-goddess-feminazi spouse of mine said...``men!!!`` & then added....``I think I`m beginning to have a headache!...``

But seriously, tahmedji, I know you dont like generalisations, & ...REALLY...I`m not asking these questions to make fun of Islam---we dont have the right to stand in judgement of ANY culture`s/religious taboos..or the lack , thereof.... BUT....I laugh at hindu parents who are reticent about talking about sex with their teenage children. Its stupid. First of all, the Govt of India FREELY advertises condoms & even gives them away at every panwallah dukaan for 5 paisa; & FREE in govt hospitals & railway stations (at least in the 70`s; when I was living there).. NEVERMIND that they make great baloons to toss around in cricket matches.

If hindus worship a penis god, its idiotic for them to be close-mouthed about sex. Then their children learn about it from friends. Damn, at one time, I convinced my younger brother that masterbation causes hernea (cos he needed hernea surgery) , until my dad put a kaibash to it. Fortunately, my father is a doctor & he sat all his sons down & explained the facts of life. Dunno why mom excused herself & said she had to talk to someone on the phone, while Dad started with ``..now there are these 2 bees..``

Besides, hindus made sex into an ART form--if anyone has read the Kama Sutra or seen the sculptures in Khajurao. When I had gone to Khajurao, we Indians would snicker in front of every scultpture; while foreign tourists were seriously studying them & turning their glossy brochures every which way to ...er.. figure out how it is possible to get into various ..er..positions.

You gotta admit--sex SHOULD be an art! Its a natural human physiological instinct. Well....so is taking a dump or pee; but thats an ``unfortunate`` necessity---& no matter how satisfying a ``good`` dump feels , first thing in the morning---sex is a LOT more enjoyable. Anybody who denies that OUGHT to see a shrink:)

I`m naturally curious what Islam has to say about the issue of sex. If I go by what I`ve learnt about Islam, on Chowk--its a code of conduct, about everything one does in life. Now, if anybody should snicker because its ``odd`` to them; I dont feel a muslim ought to be offended--its because we have to be aware of cultural similiarities & differences. Lord knows, the LAST person who is qualified to stand in judgement of Islam is an oily brahmin like me:(

So can we have a slightly thick skin if we discuss such an important topic?

Androscoggin,

Dunno why, I got a sense you were trying to scold me for my impertinent remarks. Please understand, I`m not making this a hindu-muslim thing. To put it very bluntly; BOTH hindus & muslims generally dont get good grades in following the ``rules`` of sex that their religion suggests. In fact, I dont think most hindus have a CLUE what Hinduism is...(including this rotten brahmin); other than learned types like Dr Shridhar...

Lemme ask you, is it somehow considered ``bad manners`` to discuss sex or be a little raunchy in ``mixed company?!`` Thats the attitude even older Americans (the WW2) generation has. Then they wonder why their 15 yr old granddaughter got pregnant?!

BTW, this Bangladeshi girl was born & raised in the US. Her doctor parents (who live in Detrioit) sent her to the best pvt school & college money could buy. At the same time, she was sent to an Bangladeshi Islamic ?school in Detroit; so she wouldnt lose out on her mother culture/religion. Her parents are very decent, devout muslims & she is one too. EXCEPT this girl (who works in Dow Chemical, now) has been living with her boyfriend (who wants to convert) to Islam ..but they are not ``ready`` to get married. Talk about ABCD!!

````I relayed this incident to my wife (who is also my office manager),``(shanker)

if i may digress from the subject a little -- shanker da -- why most of the subcontinental pysicians in private practice have their wives as their office managers?

shankar #106 The Quran does prohibit adultery (although, if the adulterers apologize, it calls for letting them go their way without any punishment - a part that is forgotten by proponents of stone throwing). And I think it is for the same reason that you wrote disapprovingly of this chap who wants cheeseburgers with his french fries: it is unfair to the spouse. I dont think any society looks up to a man who cheats on his wife. So, muslims are not really unique in this.

In terms of religious ethos, it does seem to me that the ``Abrahamic religions`` of christianity, judaism and islam tend to be more puritanical (or, more accurately, uptight and confused) about matters of sex than other religions. This may have been a reaction to the Canaanite culture that the first of these three religions, judaism, completely destroyed. The Canaanites were very much into fertility rites. The christians and muslims then continued this process of pushing sex under the rug. Of course sex keeps popping its ugly head for the poor muslims and christians (celibate christian priests going after little boys, muslim sufis sublimating their sexual urgings by making a nonphysical God the object of their passion). So, there is much to be said, I think, for checking out the acrobatics on Kama Sutra artwork. Keeps sex nice and simple, and avoids the confusion and hang-ups caused by pretending that human reproductive system does not exist.

shanker ji --

there is not much difference between the Hindus and the Muslim households -- SEX is a taboo subject -- for the middle class families of both communities --

DESPITE ur Kamasutras, and ur `penis god` --

and DESPITE -- our sex galore with four wives -- plus

a very special book of ours -- called `Behishti Zewar` -- literally translated as `heavenly jewels` that is given to the just married daughters when they are going away with their husbands -- the first time.

there are two chapters in this book on sex and the varieties of sexual acts -- that will put to shame some of the most learned authors of the Kamasutras even --

now the most interesting part of the descriptions are -- not that they are written so explicitly -- they are written under the guise of the sexual practices that are TABOO -- will BREAK the religious code of Ablution -- the Islamic `WAZOO` -- for a WOMAN! -- if a man -- NOT essentially her husband -- does that to her!

And this ``Behishti Zewar`` book was written by a very learned Maulana -- some hundred years ago -- ONLY for the eyes of the Muslim Women -- as an encyclopedia of family life and children rearing manual -- according to Islamic sharia -- that book was a must as part of the dowry

by the way -- that Behishiti Zewar was one `heavenly` book -- that was most sought after -- not by the girls -- but by the girl-deprived Muslim boys at the prime of their adolescent life...:-)

#102 by sameerJB on February 26, 2003 9:27am PT
[``The sex with wife is holy according to Islam - referred to as sunnat meaning that since Muhammad did it, so do you. However, either because of local exaggerations of subcontinent Muslims or to extend further control over the lives of Muslims, sex with wives also have to abide by certain rules such as not seeing vagina, sex in the dark and missionary positioin only. The curiosity about exploring sex is not appreciated or allowed.`` ]

Damn! Does it mean that I will not be let in the Paradise. My 72 virgins...