Islam in Crisis (Part2)

Minister Sankaran held for ticketless travel
PAKISTANI TRAGEDY

THIRUVANANTHAPURAM: The Railway vigilance squad today held Health Minister P Sankaran and his gunman for ticketless travel. Two persons accompanying the minister ran away. The incident occurred at 7 00 am today morning when he arrived in the Rajadhani Express.

It is said that as the minister had a pass to travel as he is an ex-MP, but he forgot to take it. The warrant with the gunmen for travel had expired. Both were fined and let off. The other two could not be caught.

////The above is an instance where every indian can be proud of the rule of the law, where a puny railway inspector can fine a minister. What before anything else the muslim societies have to look at is the elemnts in the religion that prevents any rule of modern law in islamic countries. May be the book allows for fines when the traveler does not pay the camal driver, but will the book allow it to be applied to travel by air.

Well I know, why the four pakistanis hijacked the aircraft, it is not in the book to buy tickets.

Rasheed,

Great to see some one introducing the concepts of temporal and eternal into the realms of islam. That is the device hindus have used to modernise themselves.

re: Jay

yes--but if u see the history of Islam though the majority is peaceful and willing to be modernized, through out history vested interests have overtaken reasonable interpretations. From Darah Shikoh to Fazlur Rahman to even Rushdie-from ibn rush to the great sufi saints (the analhaq fellow, Rumi etc). so many people have tried. from Bhutto to Zia and Musharraf, to Shah and Khomeini--there is a pendulum swinging between interpretations. One doesnt yet see the fulcrum.

Talib Sahib - you are being very polite and careful.

Islam`s golden period was until 8th Century when it was being continuosly reintrepreted in the context of the changing realities.

After 8th Century, reintrepretation (Ijtihad) stopped. I do not why. Since then, the Muslims are in a constant state of confusion. The conflict berwen logic and scripture.

If the sprit is not taken and exact details are to be followed, it will be very difficult for a Muslim to explain the following:

a) Why slave girls are not only allowed but children can be also be gotten through them?

b) Why man can marry four wives simultaneously?

c) Why a woman witness is half as compared to man?

e) Why the daughters get half the inheritance?

f) Why the man is permitted to beat wife?

g) Why the prophet was permitted 11 wives?

h) Why the prayer or fasting timings do not cater for North pole?

i) Why the man is promised Hoors in heaven but no such award is mentioned for women?

j) Why all the good things in heaven like rivers of milk, fruit gardens etc will attract the desert dwellers but may not attract dwellers living in higher latitudes?

H) Why a woman can not be Imam which is being intrepreted by the radicals that she can not be head of the state?

and so on

Actually, there is no choice but to take the scripture as a guidance and follow its priciples rather than to force the implementation of the given details in a vastly different environment than the one existed in the 6th Century.

Ref Jay #1

I really have no words to describe the courage of the Train Ticket Examiner who fined the Minister.

The Rule of Law is supreme in Kerala. But you expect no less when you have an educated population aware of its rights and an administration that doesn`t play favorites.

Will Biharis take note of the above incident?

re:nazarhayatkhan

What surprises me is how come so many muslims believe that already--if you ask a common person in karachi about this they will say, o times were different in Arabia--and laugh over the idea of four wives today. However the love their religion--and hate anybody putting it down. They feel strongly about political issues related to Islam. The common person is not an Islamist of any sort, than who are the extremists and why do they want to recreate 1400bc? what fears are driving that decision in the face of other alternatives. Can it be that they are using religious feeling to unite on common fears about the pace of global change? do the environmentalists, peaceniks and the fundamentalists share something? a terrible fear of modern life?

I would like to applaud Mr. Talib`s work in this space. I would also like to draw attention to his article on ``Creation of Hindu ``Madrasas`` which appeared in December, 2002 on Chowk where he described some of the nonsense being perpetrated by hindu extremists in india.

http://63.194.130.82/cgi-bin/show_article.cgi?aid=00001726&channel=civic%20center&start=0&end=9&chapter=1&page=1

Rashid:

(it may be a pointless exercise since you do not interact here)

first a general comment…this ‘note’ as you call it is not as well written as the first one…that one was concise, precise and a beauty to read…this one has a few errors and moves jerkily…khair..moving along…

on qur’an you did not mention efforts to put it in chronological order….while you did mention that even the harshest critics are agreed that it is ‘unchanged’…there is something to be said about the chronology of revelations…

…recall a hyderabadi muslim hashim ali was working on it as well as perhaps n j dawood…that may have altered the arrangement and contents of surahs perhaps…but would have aided in the interpretation…

…as i wrote somewhere recently…and let me hasten to add this is my personal view only….the message revealed through qur’an and muhammed (saw) was aimed at elevating a segment of those arabs in that era… an evolutionary nudge in the right direction…and in the last 1500 years those who accepted the faith should have continued that process of ‘evolution’ from ‘aadmi to insaan’….it is unfortunate that the theologians have become ‘peer-e-tasma-paa’ and want no part of this evolutionary process…in fact that are the very regressionary forces…explicitly or implicitly aided by those of us who profess to be ‘educated’ but uninvolved…thus issues that divide us…like mutah, slavery, hijab, marriages, rights of women etc. that should have continued to ‘evolve’ over the past millennia and half have been made the sacrificial goat in their (theologians) hedgemonistic rivalry…

…am grateful to chowk and you for providing this space where we can discuss these issues without rancour…like of old, as you wrote…”Remember, while this sensitive question was being debated between the Mutazilites and their rival theologians of the Asharite school, no objection was raised to suggest that this was apostasy, heresy or blasphemy.”

rgds,

t

The best ever Introduction to Qura`n written by any one. If one wishes to understand the book one ought to know how to read it. I hope it answers almost all the questions raised by the author:

http://www.iiu.edu.my/deed/quran/understand.html

This is a very good article, and I for one, fully support whatever the author is stating.

It is about time, constructive arguments were placed forward about Islam. The secularatic brigades` ``Islam is the source of all evil in Muslim countries`` and the mullah brigades` ``Islam is the solution to every problem`` arguments are useless and self-centered.

Islam, to me, is neither the problem, nor the solution. Those (like myself) who like it should follow it. And those who don`t, should follow something else. But I don`t think people have a right to badmouth it. And no one has the right to force people to become religious against their wishes, and no one has the right to force people to become secular or athiest against their wishes either.

I cannot see how the exact words of the Quran could not have been for a pariticular time and place. It is so obvious, that it should be re-interprated again and again, as the world changes. It is an abstract book, and is supposed to be interpreted in spirit, not in syllable. For its time (seventh century), it was extremely enlightened and progressive, even from a syllable interpretation.

The problem today with the Islamic world is that it has no role model country. Of the fifty-five or so Islamic countries, none has been able to progress (Malaysia being the furthust ahead). So others have no one to follow. Is this because they share the common factor of Islam, i.e. if they immediately became athiest or secular, would they suddenly start progressing? I doubt it.

If the above were true, historically there would not have been a single Muslim nation which progressed, while remaining Muslim. The problem has more to do with low education rates, poor leaderships, colonial legacies, corruption etc. For example, I think if Pakistan can have fifteen years of sustained honest leadership, it will progress immensely. Economic progress is based on good economic policies, not on Islam or secularism.

I think the Islamic world will turn around, not through individuals discarding or clinging overly closely to the Quran. Infact, individuals re-interprating the Quran will not make too much of a difference either (though they should be encouraged). It will progress, when one Islamic country somehow makes it into the first world, and thus becomes a role model of the Islamic world in thought, ideas, culture, economy, philosophy, ethics, militarily, religion, in the UN etc.

Huntington calls the above, a ``core state.`` In his opinion, in the Islamic civilization, the four potential ones are - Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan and Turkey. In my opinion, Malaysia will be first one.

http://www.counterpunch.org/hoskote02152003.html
#8
temporal sahib
this article is written by Ranjit Hoskote, Assistant Editor of The hindu Bombay, and seems to make a lot of sense..

some excerpts:
``The denial of contemporaneity to the Islamic world can sometimes proceed from the best intentions, as when invited experts cite and discuss the Holy Koran and the Sayings of the Prophet as the ultimate and armatural texts for present-day political choices. This approach creates the impression that Islamic civilisation has made no further contribution to the history of thought since the 7th century; it also negates the role of secular philosophies in the evolution of the Muslim or Arab political consciousness. For instance, this writer cannot recall a single reference, in mainstream-channel discussions during the last 17 months, to Ali Shariati, the political visionary and critic of consumption capitalism whose teachings provided the stimulus for the first, 1978 phase of the Iranian Revolution. Or to the historian of science and gnosis, Seyyed Hossein Nasr; or the Egyptian secular revolutionary, Gamal Abdel Nasser, or the Algerian socialists Ahmed Ben Bella and Houari Boumediene. The Libyan leader Muammar al-Gaddafi is usually mentioned only in the context of the Lockerbie case or dismissed as a maverick; his contribution to post-colonial praxis goes unremarked. ``

nazarhayatkhan saheb:

yours are exactly -- 10 good REASONS --

why every GOOD Muslim should only RECITE the Holy Quran -- to HEAT up his or her cold HEART--

but AVOID -- the translation/the `turjumaa` --

lest --

it BURNS down his or her sensitive BRAIN --

of course if he or she has -- one.

Rasheed Talib saheb -- ah our Holy Quran -- it`s our hayat/life -- and it`s our maut/death --

and we the Muslims are happily imprisoned inside our Quranic Walls -- and happy that -- we can`t get out --

keoN haiN khush hum ba qaid-e maut-o hayat
hai aisee bhee bey-busee keya hai

TIme to get rid of that -- beybusee --

thanks -- temporal is right -- u need to elaborate -- write more on Quran

Saima #3,

Responsibility for the situation in pakistan completely rests with the educated of pakistan, they are the agents of change. But they have betrayed pakistan, they are no different from the uneducated, the so called mullahs.
Take for example tahmed and temporal on chowk. They state that islam and jihad does not permit the killing of innocents. Then the mullah says kills the non-innocents, they are kafirs across the border. Tahed and mullah are telling the same, one is masked in the sofistry and double meaning. The ilks of tahmed can never say on the chowk that muslims should not be killing others. That would be against what they have learned in early childhood. It is that persistance of the islamic education that is killing pakistan.

Excellent work but I have a question and anyone from the readers or the writer himself can answer:

Rasheed Talib wrote (in part 1) that reconstructing an educational system (which perhaps rivals or overtakes the Madrassa system) is too big a job to take on for any Muslim country today. He didn`t clarify the reasons for this impossibility. Is it too difficult politically or is the required money not there?

-k

Kerala favours Indian citizenship to Pak nationals: Antony
- -
Thiruvananthapuram: The general feeling was to accord Indian citizenship to the 395 Pakistani nationals, ``overstaying`` in Kozhikode and Malappuram districts of Kerala, on humanitarian grounds, Chief Minister A K Antony told the State Assembly today.

However, a final stand on their future would be taken after evolving a political consensus, he said. The state would convey to the Centre its stand on Kerala-origin Pakistani nationals after an all-party meeting here on March six, he added.

Replying to a calling attention motion of Mr R Balakrishna Pillai (KC-B), he said all were in favour of allowing them to stay here as they were forced to obtain Pakistani passport to return to India while working in Karachi exactly at the time of partition. Having migrated temporarily to Karachi for want of jobs, they used to frequent Kerala even after independence to call on their kith and kin and finaly settled down here.

All of them were born and educated in Kerala and a majority of them had already crossed 70 years of age. However, they were declared as ``Pakistani nationals`` under section 99 (2) of the Indian Citizens Act because of being holders of Pakistani passport. They were allowed to stay in Kerala as they did not pose any threat to Indian security.

``They deserve sympathy as most of them are now old and disease stricken,`` Mr Antony said, adding that Union Home Minister L K Advani had promised to take a sympathetic view on the issue. A meeting of the MPs from Kerala, on February four here, also wanted their case considered favourably on humanitarian grounds.
/
// A christian chief minister in a hindu majority state asking for the pakistani passport holders to be made indian citizens. India is a crazy place. That reminds me of pakistan, in the year that Abdus salam got the nobel prize, the president of pakistan made the denigration of ahmadias in the pass port application forms which all of the pakistanis have signed from the past 25 years. Why did zia do it, to honour the religion, ahmadia to which abdus slam belonged.

jay #16 I see you refer to me (and poor temporal) as engaging in sophistry. I have always maintained that you are hate-filled individual who pretends that South Indian Brahmins are Gods are somehow a notch above the rest of the population of the sub-continent. I have also maintained that your hatred and obsession with Pakistan in particular has driven you to insanity.
Does this sound like sophistry to you??? Rest assured I mean exactly what I write.

Rashid Talib: I have read with interest this Part II of your article. Perhaps the most significant sentence that you provide (as a quote) is the following:
``the spirit of the Quranic legislation exhibits an obvious direction towards the progressive embodiment of the fundamental human values of freedom and responsibility in fresh legislation, nevertheless the actual legislation of the Quran had partly to accept the then existing society as a term of reference. ``
If once accepts this, and my understanding of the Quran (for whatever it is worth, since I am no more and no less than an ordinary individual trying to understand the truth) also happens to be along these lines. One reason I have reached the same conclusion is as follows: While punishments are prescribed in the Quran, they represent the maximum punishment permissible, and are almost invariably supplemented with words to the effect that Allah loves Mercy.
The practical implications for today are as follows: The Criminal Penal Code that the British left behind is the product of a soceity (the upper calss Victorian Society in 19th century UK) that was more progressive than the society in which Quranic punishments were prescribed. Therefore (per the Quranic spirit of Mercy and Forgiveness) our aim should be to MOVE FURTHER IN THE DIRECTION OF RESPECT FOR INDIVIDUAL FREEDOM AND A MORE HUMANE SOCIETY. More speifically, this implies (a) abrogating the death sentence in Pakistan (my gut instinct is that one out of every two criminals executed in Pakistan is innocent e.g., even if one rejects the more philosophical case against the death sentence concerning the sanctity of all life, including that of a murderer); (b) improving prison conditions in Pakistan, and (c) enforcing properly the other other laws that do exist - laws that would put white collar criminals and the rich behind bars or subject to heavy fines, e.g.

I agree totally with Talibs sentiments.

Wonder why people from other religions too do not analyse their own.
Christianity, Buddhism, Sikhism, Hinduism or the Jews are not perfect either.

That would make for a wonderful dialogue - leading to the extinction of religion, would nt it?

;-)

re:`` the latter must be read in their spirit, not as literal truths.``

Can we agree then that Islamic interpretations that were read and implemented as ``literal truth`` are being used for other and less spiritual motivations?

Where is the dynamic of leadership, power and patriarchy in all this?

Its like Ionesco`s Rhinoceros; charging through the room every five minutes, but no one ``sees`` it....

#11 by Romair

Malaysia has progressed due to the renowned entrepreneurial qualities of its urban-based Chinese population – roughly 40 per cent of the population. It is wrong to credit its Muslim population, majority of who live in country-side and are comparatively less educated.

You cannot blame “low education rates, poor leaderships, colonial legacies, corruption etc.” for the under-development of Muslims states as these are only symptoms of, not the reasons for, the lack of their economic, social and political progress. It is the Islamic mindset which is hindering their development. They need to liberate themselves from the rigid theory propagated 1400 years back. Perhaps the solution lies with a protestant version of Islam.

A Muslim country to become a role model, I doubt it. Islam, as is practiced by Muslims, would not let any Muslim country to progress. There is no need to reinvent a wheel. Why not make an existing modern developed country as a role model. Lessons can be learnt from any of the countries in West or North Europe, Japan, Singapore or South Korea in Asia. The absence of the separation of church and state separate the 55 Muslims countries from the rest of the world.

#10 by Bhitai:

...thanks for the ranjit hoskote link…ben bella, boumediene and qadhafi were questiobnable on that list…but yes, nasr and shariati and others are definitely leading the way…shariati acknowledged sir muhammed iqbal also…some more links:

---seyyed hussain nasr (http://www.nasr.org/default.html)

---dr. ali shariati (http://www.shariati.com/)

---asghar ali engineer (http://newark.rutgers.edu/~rtavakol/engineer/)

---dr. riffat hussain (sorry don’t have an url address for her but she teaches in the US and writes frequently in Pakistani main stream media in both English and Urdu...have posted some of her articles and interviews in the unplugged section of chowk)

rgds,

t

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the problem with Islam can be summed up by this news item in TFT today, 02/20/03

One step forward, two centuries back (taliban commeth to pakistan)

Mohammad Shehzad
MMA wants to pass some ambitiously backward laws


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


SLAMABAD – Akram Durrani’s Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal government in the Frontier province has constituted a 21-member committee, Nifaaz-e-Shariat Council, to draft proposals for the Islamisation of the province. The committee is burning the midnight oil in order to crank out a draft of the soon-to-be ordinance. The Council of Islamic Ideology is to vet all the proposals. Sources in the know shared with TFT some of the proposals that the committee has reportedly decided on.

Under the proposed law women will not be allowed to come out of their homes unless they are wearing the Hijab and are chaperoned by a kinsman. They will be encouraged to use traditional methods of hair removal and the sale of hair-removing creams and lotions will be banned. Shops shall not advertise sale of sanitary pads or undergarments and women will not be allowed to purchase such products. Kinsmen, however, may make necessary purchases on their behalf. All use of perfume and makeup will be banned. Husbands are encouraged to physically abuse their wives if these rules are flouted.

Women will not be allowed to use male tailors. Female tailors alone must measure and stitch clothes for women. Also, no male doctors or nurses will be allowed to treat women patients. Of course, women will not be allowed to model or appear on television. No printed image of women will be allowed. Women guests at hotels will not be allowed to use the swimming pool. And beauty parlours, accused of spreading obscenity in the proposal, shall be banned. Coeducation will also be banned because it promotes Zina (adultery).

Rajim (stoning to death) will be the punishment for adultery and will be executed in public. Amputation of limbs will be punishment for stealing. Family planning will be declared un-Islamic and sale of contraceptives banned. People would be encouraged to produce more children in order to “strengthen Islam”. Sale of medicines that can be used for sexual recreation, like Viagra used for erectile dysfunction, will be banned. Internet cafés will be banned as well as kite flying, cinemas, music, photography and all other forms of artistic expression, sources relayed.

MMA has the numbers to pass any such bill into law and police would be asked to implement the draconian laws under a new ministry for vice and virtue. However, and this is the slim ray of hope piercing through the dark clouds, these laws will no teeth unless they are backed by punishment. The federal government alone has the right to change the penal code and is unlikely to accept MMA’s Taliban-esque demands.

#23 arjun_m

You don`t get it do you?

Use of violence and war is reserved for certain groups based on their ``just cause``. Once it becomes a ``just cause`` then using suicide bombers against children or blowing up civilians on a highway (5 killed in J&K yesterday) is no problem.

However, western democracies should always be lashed for failing to live to their ideals. Certain CHristian groups genuinely reject war as an option and this is another excellent tool to be used to neuter the infidel. For the hindus, there is always the advice to look up to Gandhi and also concept of ahimsa which has had a high value in indic traditions.

Summary: use other groups pacifistic traditions against them in every possible way. But justify terrorism by islamist groups using every possible excuse.

#22 by temporal on February 20, 2003 1:52pm PT

As far as I know Dr. Riffat Hussain teaches at Quaid-i-Azam University, Islamabad, Pakistan. Importantly, he is not ``she``.

We have been accustomed to buying new cars for the last several thousand years. Once we owned local made car, then Hindu, then Buddhist, then Hindu again, then Islam and then some of us bough Sikh car. What is the reason to keep getting esitmates from Shariati Autos, Sourosh Body Shop, Hussein Nasr Transmission Specialists and Ali Engineer Lube and Oil change for fising this car that is falling apart and its transmission is likey to fail very soon? Instead of wasting money and time, go to Common Sense Motors and get a new one and leave your old car nearby at Holy Shity - Jerusalem Salvage Company.

Iqbal, Shariati, Soroush, Nussein Nasr are nothing new to Islam and the world. Such characters have been around durring every faltering religion and civilization. They keep the hope alive on the surface while termites keep eating it away from inside. If termites are too visible, such characters set up commissions to advice for the setting up a comittee to lay the ground work for the creation of a commission to study the breeding habits of termites.

Every century has created such `so-called` reformers in Islam knowingly too well that the strongest point about Islam is its strength and resilience against flexibility. That is why, Islam started gining rise to sects as soon as it started breathing because flexibility had no place within it.

The best way to reform Islam is to get out of it and reform yourself. Once a critical mass of these former Muslims is created, it will send shock waves to the remaining and faltering dogma. As I said few months ago, Islam has to be shaken or defeated decisively for Muslims to succeed. Islam as a retrogressive force should not be able to pull down any progressive minded Muslim in Muslim majority societies in the same way it fails among the progressive minded Muslims in the liberal and secular west.

Islam was defeated in Balakot under Syed Ahmed Barelvi and Shah Ismail around 1830. It saved northern Pakistan from Islam for 150 years until Taliban won Afghanistan. Lets hope that a decisive defeat of Taliban (including MMA) will save Pathans from falling victim to Islam for the next 150 years.

hari #25:
``However, and this is the slim ray of hope piercing through the dark clouds, these laws will no teeth unless they are backed by punishment. The federal government alone has the right to change the penal code and is unlikely to accept MMA’s Taliban-esque demands.``
I dont understand - isn`t the MMA in power in the central govt too?

It is heartening to hear praises of this liberal article from chowkies. However the ground reality is much different. A tahmed, or a Romair can support the questioning of Quran on a liberal web sight as The Chowk, but doing so on the ground in the land of the pure can prove fatal. The case in point is that of a professor who made the mistake of commenting that Mohammed was not born as a muslim.

While there seems to be some awareness in the muslim circles in the western countries and India, about the need of some reformation in muslim dogma, in the bastians of Islam the movement is in the opposite direction. It has often been mentioned in these pages that most muslims in Pakistan do not follow the mullahs, however the mullahs still control the religion life of the pakistanis. So much so that even a dictator like Musharraf has to appease them.

This is because, most muslim though quite liberal in their own life style are tolerent, even tacitily supportive of the mullahs, they have no problem in finacially supporting their cause, as long as it doesn`t affect their own life. Even a person like Jinnah, who was only casually muslim and generally secular in his outlook had no problem with opting for a seperate homeland for muslims.

IMHO, this liberal debate on reformation of Islam is not going to go any where, because who is going to bell the cat. Until the people on the street in Pakistan decide that enough is enough and mullahs and their rigid Islam has to go, nothing much is going to happen. The mullahs control the two western provinces already and I can see them making significant gains in Punjab and Sindh in the future.

It is strange to think that Iqbal or anybody in any way inspired by him will be the salvation of Muslims. But then nobody accused Muslims of being intelligent.

Ajeet #27

>This is because, most muslim though quite liberal in their own life style are tolerent,

A liberal Muslim is an oxymoron. Like fragrant shit. Take any Muslim and ask him, her five questions. The mask of liberalism will disappear. If it doesnt, other Muslims will not recognize this person as a Muslim any longer. Wherever Muslims are dominant, they will go after such a person with long blood-dripping muhammadan knives unsheathed.

The problem with Islam is not that a good person can not be born among Muslims. The problem is that in Islam Dara Shikoh will always be beheaded and killed by an Aurangzeb. The Aurangzeb will then become the torchbearer and beloved hero of Islam.

Dara Shikohs are oddities that Islam consistently and rapidly weeds out from within itself. Hoping that occasional dara shikohs will reform Islam is like hoping that a singing bird caught inside a large gas chamber will drink in all the lethal gas and replace it with fresh air.

ajheet #27 You write ``A tahmed, or a Romair can support the questioning of Quran on a liberal web sight as The Chowk, but doing so on the ground in the land of the pure can prove fatal. ``
I dont think so. My own father wrote a book that directly distinguished between the message of the Quran vs. the mullahs (titled, ``Quranic and nonQuranic Islam`` by Brig. Nazir Ahmad, first published in 1997). The book received nothing but positive reviews in pakistani newspapers, and has even been quoted in an US journal. Not once was he even threatened by anyone, and he was often invited to speak at universities and other places within Pakistan where he openly discussed these issues (a couple of ``learned`` aalims from Islamabad university who debated these issues with him found that he could easily demonstrate, with reference to the Quran, the hollowness of some of their views. They soon learnt to avoid public debates with him since they knew their shallowness and distortions of Islam could be easily exposed. My father tdied peacefully of natural causes last September in Islamabad, with instructions that he did not wish to have a professional maulvi lead his funeral prayers. We had, instead, a good family friend and religious person whom my father had identified, lead his funeral prayers instead.

I wonder if any hindu who wrote a similar book distinguishing between the peaceful message at the core of hinduism and the evil ways of the hindu extremists in India would be safe from your extremists in India.

There is not much, which can be said on the need for Islam to question itself. A critical re-examination within Islam is long overdue and it has to be undertaken.

Again, the question remains and is a difficult one to answer. Why is Islam so hesitant to question itself? Why is Islam, by refusing to offer a self critical analysis, propagating a sense of intellectual rigidity? Islam is, according to its own explanations the word of God given to man. In this sense, God is infallible, but man is not; why is Islam thus elevating man, a mere mortal, to a status, where his interpretations and actions cannot be questioned? No one is questioning the word of God, but there is no resistriction in Islam not to question the actions of its followers. There is no mention of a priestly class in Islam and hence, where did the offical orthodoxy of the religious preachers in Islam originate? Where did events go wrong and at what point in the history of Islam, which created this ambiguity about Islam and its what are its interpretations?

I am not a religious scholar nor do I claim to be one and thus, it is really sad and tragic that the author of this article does not interact. I wish, that he did, because he seems to possess answers to questions, which have always haunted me. I wish that he would change his mind and answer some very legitimate questions and in the process, clear some of the cow webs of confusion. I wish, but I wish in vain.

Ciao

Ajeet 27,

Tahmed will say all sorts of things, about great books, never ask him what the book contains. Ask him to post on the anonymity of chowk that ``jihad is not killing of kafirs`` then you will see him recoil like dracula from a stake. He will come back with ``jihad prohibits killing of innocents``, whic is the sama as the mullahs word, ``kill the non-innocent across the border``.

No sir the tahmeds of the world never criticise the teachings, especially the core ones like jihad. I have never seen a pakistani muslim say that hey let us not kill. no killing has to be there, it comes from the sacrifices that pakistanis do during eid. The great one takes them to heaven and no tahmed can say no to it.

Ref tahmed32 #30

[I wonder if any hindu who wrote a similar book distinguishing between the peaceful message at the core of hinduism and the evil ways of the hindu extremists in India would be safe from your extremists in India.]

All you need to do is to read the Op-Ed section of any English-language newspaper any given day. There is always somebody arguing about the meaning of Hinduism and how the BJP is perverting it.

People have gone further in the past: the followers of the pro-British, anti-Independence (sounds like the erstwhile All-India Muslim League, doesn`t it?) Justice Party changed its name to Dravida Kazhagam, used to take out pictures of Rama, Krishna, etc., garlanded with slippers in public processions. They used to give their children names like Ravana or Surpanakha to demonstrate that they wanted to have no truck with Hinduism. Just about 2 months back, their leader addressed a public meeting in Madras and said that the word ``Hindu`` meant ``thief``. You could do all this and get away with it. In fact, the Sankaracharya of Kanchi, a respected religious head, has been sued in the courts for supposedly hurting the sentiments of Dalits.

Remember that movie ``Mr and Mrs Iyer`` that was reviewd on Chowk? The reviewer thought that the movie brought out the essential humanity of people. One guy in India (a Hindu) wrote an Op-Ed piece in ``The Hindu`` saying that Mrs Iyer was merely using the Muslim guy to save her life and this was typical of upper-caste Hindu behavior that ought to be condemned, blah blah blah...

Nobody in India gives a sh!t. We are too busy trying to make a living.

We do have professional agents provocateurs in the Bajrang Dal, VHP, etc. But then, they are doing what they are doing ``to protect Hinduism``. Do you think only Islam can be in danger and needed a separate country to protect it?

#30 by tahmed32 on February 20, 2003 11:37pm PT

[My own father wrote a book that directly distinguished between the message of the Quran vs. the mullahs (titled, ``Quranic and nonQuranic Islam`` by Brig. Nazir Ahmad, first published in 1997.......Not once was he even threatened by anyone, and he was often invited to speak at universities and other places within Pakistan where he openly discussed these issues]

Any dumb fool could have told you that your dad wasn`t threatened simply because he was a (retired?) brigadier. For back home in your land of the pure, if anything is more feared than rampant Mullahism, it is the clout the military and military men wield. In any case, a university would be the last place you`d expect to see a Mullah in.

Do you forget the Lahore teacher (professor?) whose case is well documented by Amnesty International and is now languishing behind bars because a student alleged that he had said soemthing to the effect that the prophet had no beard before he was 40 because he wasn`t a Muslim then?

[I wonder if any hindu who wrote a similar book distinguishing between the peaceful message at the core of hinduism and the evil ways of the hindu extremists in India would be safe from your extremists in India]

Have you ever bothered to find out yourselves? No Hindu extremist (including Hindutva`s poster-boy Bal Thackeray) has ever threatened to wage Jihad to eliminate non-Hindu (kafirs?) from the face of the Earth. In any case rabble-rousers like Kuldip Nayar and Praful Bidwai, who make regular noises about India`s human rights record and the ``right-wing`` BJP`s alleged role in the Gujarat riots, and whom Pakis love to quote to embarrass India, are Hindus too.

[My own father wrote a book that directly distinguished between the message of the Quran vs. the mullahs (titled, ``Quranic and nonQuranic Islam`` by Brig. Nazir Ahmad, first published in 1997.......Not once was he even threatened by anyone, and he was often invited to speak at universities and other places within Pakistan where he openly discussed these issues]

Any dumb fool could have told you that your dad wasn`t threatened simply because he was a (retired?) brigadier. For back home in your land of the pure, if anything is more feared than rampant Mullahism, it is the clout the military and military men wield. In any case, a university would be the last place you`d expect to see a Mullah in.

Do you forget the Lahore teacher (professor?) whose case is well documented by Amnesty International and is now languishing behind bars because a student alleged that he had said soemthing to the effect that the prophet had no beard before he was 40 because he wasn`t a Muslim then?

[I wonder if any hindu who wrote a similar book distinguishing between the peaceful message at the core of hinduism and the evil ways of the hindu extremists in India would be safe from your extremists in India]

Have you ever bothered to find out yourselves? No Hindu extremist (including Hindutva`s poster-boy Bal Thackeray) has ever threatened to wage Jihad to eliminate non-Hindu (kafirs?) from the face of the Earth. In any case rabble-rousers like Kuldip Nayar and Praful Bidwai, who make regular noises about India`s human rights record and the ``right-wing`` BJP`s alleged role in the Gujarat riots, and whom Pakis love to quote to embarrass India, are Hindus too.

harimau #38 I am glad that there are people pointing out the evil ways of hindu extremists in India.
I find you last sentence somewhat confusing: ``We do have professional agents provocateurs in the Bajrang Dal, VHP, etc. But then, they are doing what they are doing ``to protect Hinduism``. Do you think only Islam can be in danger and needed a separate country to protect it? ``
It seems to me that you do not consider these professional troublemakers (excuse me, my French is a bit weak) to be mere criminals, but merely ``protecting hinduism`` and therefore are convinced that their actions are justified. Please correct me if I am wrong in my understanding of what you wrote.

harish #37 Thank you for informing me of who is safe and who is not safe in Pakistan. You are obviously more knowledgable than I am about conditions within Pakistan.
I also gather from your post that there ARE no mischief makers among hindus, that even Thakeray is OK. I assume then that the chap who shot Gandhi did so through an accident. That the muslims killed in Gujrat were merely being executed by the state for killing hindus at Godhra. Your post is most re-assuring that there are men of good sense representing India on chowk. After reading the likes of Jay and not-a-slave I had thought that all sensible Indians had long ago left chowk.

#29 by sameerJB
//..Islam has to be shaken or defeated decisively for Muslims to succeed..//

Islamic Apologists, please note: sameerJB is yet another Islam-hater. He thinks the beautiful religion of Islam must be ``defeated``.

Go get`im, tigers - declare a fatwa at least.

#34 by ferozk
//..why is Islam thus elevating man, a mere mortal, to a status, where his interpretations and actions cannot be questioned?..//

Are you saying that Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) was fallible, could have made mistakes like any other human being? Wow!! You must be a Islam-hater.

+++

//...Why is Islam so hesitant to question itself? ..//

Because as soon as anybody does that, apologists and mullahs pounce upon them. You can see a sample of that right here in chowk.

sameer 29:

“Iqbal, Shariati, Soroush, Nussein Nasr are nothing new to Islam and the world. Such characters have been around durring every faltering religion and civilization.”

…there has never been a dearth of people who have been claiming this…right from the days of Muhammed (saw)…the ‘pseudo’ muslims embracing islam as a religion of convenience …and down each century to the current one…and yet those paltry few beelievers have grown to be a billion plus…

…the thinking animal known as man has been looking at the stars at night and has been mulling over his and humanity’s fate since time immemorial…you, me and other here and elsewhere are not the only ones who ponder…this has been going on in the past and will continue to happen in future…even Buddha went in the jungles to ponder…therefore it is wrong to give off the impression that a religion (read Islam) is at a dead end…as mark twain said once in another context…any news of its ‘demise’ are exaggerated!…

“Islam was defeated in Balakot under Syed Ahmed Barelvi and Shah Ismail …” spanning 1500 years this was a minor hiccup not a decisive defeat…Islam has taken the best Mongols could afford and bounced back…

…you write “As I said few months ago, Islam has to be shaken or defeated decisively for Muslims to succeed”…

…and as I have written before…in a manner am thankful to 9/11 and mr obl…they have given an impetus for the ‘renewal’…and ‘renewal’ it will be whether on sympathetic terms (read a resurgence from within) or unsympathetic terms (read a resurgence from without)

…in this perhaps we are more in agreement than disagreement…

rgds,

t

Tahmed Sahib,

The book that you mentiond ... is it possible for me to get a copy of it? I reside in the Bay Area (northern california) and would gladly pay the price and shipping/handling costs ... in advance if needed.

Your input will be much appreciated.

Asad

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

arjun #43 I am not sure if destruction of idols is what I had in mind. I was thinking more in lines of a book that drew the line between the peaceful message that lies at the core of hinduism (as it does at the core of all the world`s great religions) vs. the violent ways of hindu extremists.

sattar2 #44 The book is in its second edition, being published by Vanguard (Pvt) Ltd. 2001 in Pakistan. Their email address is vbl@brain.net.pk, telephone Lahore 7243783 and 7243779. The price is Rs. 395. The publishing company is I think run by Najm Sethi (well known editor of Friday Times).
I would be send you a copy if you are unable to get one directly from them, but am down to my last couple of copies at this time, and am trying to get a few more copies. Let me know if you have trouble getting hold of the book. You may also find in through the library system.
Thanks for your interest in the book.

There is a program on Palistan on PBS now. Please watch.

harimau #38
last night i watched a 45-minute film called `Gujarat--A Laboratory of the Hindu Rastra.`` It was quite revealing in terms of the BJP, the Hindu priests that defended the carnage in Gujarat, and what their vision for India in the not-so-distant future is.
perhaps no one in India will give a ## about this either, and unfortunately, due to its content, a whole lot of people won`t be able to see it. The filmmaker is on tour right now in the US.

The PBS, show that I mentioned before was quite revealing. One of the things that was talked about was the case where it was reported in the press that Pakistan sent some planes in the middle of america was on Taliban and pulled some people out. This was of course denied by both the Pakistan government and and US.

It seem that it was not a one plane trip. A whole armada of planes were used and about 3000 people were taken out. A lot of Pakistani, including some army generals training the taliban were surrounded by the american forces. In a panic Musharraf talked to some higher up in the us government and told them it would be disastrous if those people were captured and displayed on the media. To save his skin the americans allowed him to rescue his generals. However once the ISI got into it they not only took out the pakistanis but also a lot oa Al quida including the close family of Bin laden.

ana_dobarah

Indian Gujrat will be repeated wherever Muslims live. Sooner or later, all others will start giving Muslims a taste of their own medicine. In a few years there will be riots in Europe between Muslims and Christiansl Later on killings will start in United States.

If a poisonous snake enters your house, sooner or later you will have to kill it if you want to stay alive, and not turn over your house to the snake. Still there are enough pinkos around. The producers of the film you saw must have been some hindu. Muslims never make such a mistake in support of minorities in their own country.

Romair`s reply (#11) shows what`s wrong with Muslims:

1. An abiding desire to promote a Muslim nation and model where none exists. There is no Christian, Hindu, or Buddhist world, but somehow Muslims keep referring to Muslim world and ummah (nation). Ironically, the most eager to flee from their native Islamic countries for better life in the infidel West, Muslims nevertheless harp endlessly on the theme of Islam and Muslim nation as their guiding philosophy, superior to all others.

2. Constant reference to education per se as the cause/solution of Muslim`s backwardness. Education, as imparted in Muslim countries, is a menace rather than a solution (read Pervez Hoodbhoy`s acticle on this). Take Romair himself. Presumably, he rates himself as educated, as solution rather than problem. But, then, he presents Malaysia as a potential model Islamic state and does so without saying why. It is clear that he knows little or nothing about Malaysia (except that KL has a modern skyline and Malaysia`s per capita income has risen significantly) and does not even care to give us any reason why he thinks Malaysia is such a good country. He has no clue that the West is not all about skylines and per capita income. It has to do with equality before the law, free press, free judiciary, checks and balances, minority rights, equality of the sexes, all of which are not only conspicuous by their absence in his dear model Malaysia but are as far removed from Islamic countries as hell is from heaven.

Ref tahmed32 #39

[I find you last sentence somewhat confusing: ``We do have professional agents provocateurs in the Bajrang Dal, VHP, etc. But then, they are doing what they are doing ``to protect Hinduism``. Do you think only Islam can be in danger and needed a separate country to protect it? ``
It seems to me that you do not consider these professional troublemakers (excuse me, my French is a bit weak) to be mere criminals, but merely ``protecting hinduism`` and therefore are convinced that their actions are justified. Please correct me if I am wrong in my understanding of what you wrote.]

I meant that that in Bajrang Dal and VHP there are people who deliberately bait Muslims. Their slogan is ``Hinduism is in danger in India``. Their slogan is a mirror image of the pre-1947 All-India Muslim League and thus their justification for demanding a ``Hindu nation`` in India.

On the other hand, if historically the Sultans of Delhi and other localities had treated all their subjects equitably, the VHP & Company wouldn`t have a valid argument.

All those who continue to justify the Two-Nation Theory and the creation of Pakistan should at least accept that the arguments of the VHP are as valid as those of the Muslim league.

Or, if they find the shoe pinches, they still need to continue wearing it since they were the shoemakers to begin with.

Ref ana_dobarah #49

[last night i watched a 45-minute film called `Gujarat--A Laboratory of the Hindu Rastra.`` It was quite revealing in terms of the BJP, the Hindu priests that defended the carnage in Gujarat, and what their vision for India in the not-so-distant future is.]

It is always possible to selectively quote from speeches to make Gujarat into an Orwellian dictatorship. The pseudo-secularists of the Congress Party and their hangers-on in the Press and mass media are afraid that their message of vote-bank politics does not have a future in India. If the vote bank is Muslims against individual castes amongst Hindus, these people believe they can win the elections. What they are afraid of is that Hindus of all castes are sick and tired of this bullcrap and have decided that they are Hindus first and last. This they cannot stomach and hence the daily drumbeat of Op-Ed articles against all of BJP, not just against Gujarat and Narendra Modi. The more they do this, the more the Hindus are convinced that the Indian government is mollycoddling the minorities.

Urstuly probably can list the number of dead in communal riots in India since 1950. You will find that there have been more riots and more killed under Congress rule than under BJP.

[perhaps no one in India will give a ## about this either,...]

Except the apologists of the Nehru-Gandhi family. So long as the message is bash-the-BJP, you can be sure that a whole lot of people are going to say, ``Screw them all``.

[...and unfortunately, due to its content, a whole lot of people won`t be able to see it. The filmmaker is on tour right now in the US.]

There is very little political censorship in India so the filmmaker can definitely screen it here. If not, you can always get an anti-BJP TV station to air it by getting the film transmitted through satellite from the US.

Re: Mohar11

I am simply stating that Muhammad was a man and during his life time, he always claimed that he was a messenger of God and not a god. The pope`s decisons are considered infallible, but does that make them right? The doctrine of infallibility is a human concept and is not to be found in nature. Man, by defination, is flawed and such, all his creations are not perfect. Islam suggests, and please correct me if I am wrong, that salvation lies in bettering ourselves as human beings. How can we better ourselves, when we assume that we are prefect from birth and there is nothing for us to improve upon? Is that not arrogance?

I do not hate Islam, though it is so easy to silence me by saying that and having me killed. Where is the tolerance in Islam then, which Islam claims as a religion? Muslims, in the recent past, have condenmed more Muslims as non-belivers than they have converted non-believers to Islam. You can kill me easily by suggesting what you did, but will you have agreement to your logic by silencing dissent? No, you will simply have my dead body and not my consensus to your viewpoint. Are you going to kill everyone, who disagrees with your believes? Are you and your religion that insecure and fearful? Are you yourself fearful of the truth and do not wish to discover it lest it upsets your false assumptions?

If you wish, please go right ahead and kill me by twisting my words, but killing me is not going to stop the pursuit of knowledge and questions and if you fear questions being asked, then you have misunderstood the message of Islam, which suggests that knowledge must be gained at all costs and how can knowledge be gained without asking questions?

You yourself stated that to question Islam is have the mullahs ``pounce`` on the questioner. Are you not doing the same to me by pouncing on me for questioning things about Islam? Are you a hypocrite with a faith in hypocricy of double standards. Islam`s greatest contribution to human development, in my view, is the concept of social justice. How are the Muslims going to implment this social justice, when they profess a believe in hypocricy grounded in a moral apartheid?

Mohar11, who died and made you my judge, jury and excutioner? Whether I am a bad Muslim or a good Muslim is for Allah to judge and not you! Who gives you the right to judge another Muslim and is it not this hypocritical assumption, which leads to intolerance within Islam, because we have created a distinction of ``good Muslims`` and ``bad Muslims``. I have been called a kufr by my wife in an open court, because my mother was born to Parsi parents and my deceased father was called a Hindu because she did not think that his name was Islamic or Muslim, and because we, as a family, do not wear our religion, Islam, on our sleeves. Allah knows the truth and that is all I care, regardless of what the world opts to believe or not to believe.

I am Muslim by birth and Islam resides in my heart and I do not need a ``good conduct`` certificate from my fellow Muslims to be considered as a Muslim! As a Muslim, I try to be honest to the message of Islam and not to practice it as a ritual to balm a gulity conscience. In finality, I will be judged by Allah and it is His verdict, on my status as a Muslim, which is final and binding and not your personal opinions about the virtues of who is a Muslim and to decide what they should think! I will also tell you and your ilk something else. The world does not hate Islam or its followers, but it does dislike them for their act of hypocricy in the name of Islam.

So, please twist my words as a pretext to silencing my questions by killing me if you wish, because as a Muslim I believe that the real life starts in the hereafter and this life is a but a preparation for the hereafter. By having me killed for questioning Islam, you will simply be sending me to my God sooner than I had anticipated and for that, I will be eternally in your debt. Thank you!

Ciao

temporal #45: A billion or more than a billion does not matter. It is not a question of any danger of Muslims disappearing from the face of the earth. The fact is that Muslims are undergogs in every conflict they enter against rest of the world. It is a pretty sad commentary on the plight of a large group of people differentiated by religious practices fromt he rest.

This is not the first time Islam is in crisis. They have been through crisis many times and came out every time falling backward to the basics, dogma and orthodoxy. The Wahabi movement came out of Arab crisis of losing political dominance to Turks. The Syed Ahmed Barelvi and Shah Ismail came out of the crisis of faltering Mughal empire. The deobandism came out to stop indianization of Muslims and converting back, few to Hinduism and large number to Sikhism. Sir Syed Ahmed Khan and Shibli Nomani came out to cope arrival of British and Shibli bhai won over Sir Syed in general and later Ali brothers of Khilafat Movement.

That is what I do not trust finding solution from within as Shariati, Iqbal, Soroush and Hussein Nasr are proposing. This tendency can only change by outright defeat and not micromanaging crisis. Why can`t Muslim learn from Francis Bacon, Descartes or Emanuel Kant instead of relying exclusively on desi and Iranian religious scholars.

The Islamic crisis is so profound even in places like Indonesia where a tiny 3 percent Chinese control 75 percent of the economy. Same is true in Malaysia. Are you suggesting to Indonesian and Malaysian to read and follow Shariati, Iqbal, Soroush and Nasr instead of just learning from their neighbors - the Chinese population?

How can one blame colonialism and imperialism etc for having 5.3 children per mother? How can they blame anybody but themselves to spent lifetime saving in one shot of going to Mecca from all over th world and coming back with some holy water and dates after spending equivalent of 2-3 thousand dollars? Who is to blame when lower middle and middle class families spent 6-8 thosand rupees for killing a goat and not using it to improve the living standard or buying consumer durables.

Muslim must totally ignore all these Islamic liberation theologians and reformers. Instead they must lower the enthusiasm for religious practices and instead of reinventing green color Islamic wheel, learn from the worldwide examples of successful people and much admired scientific and rational plilosophies.

Embedded in relying on Islamic liberation theologian is the assumption that Islam is a superior religion and can become a leading light to the world if followed with modifications. First of all it is a fantasy, second rest of the world has proven more successful without it and thirdly the rigidity of belief stemming from unadultrated words of god.

Nothing short of realization by Muslims that Islam is contributing to their decline would do the job. Resisting the world with proven underdog status must be the last thing on their mind. Yet, the success of MMA in Karachi of all places depicts the resilience and resistance mindedness of Muslims after losing in Afghanistan. Instead of live and let live, the Islamic motto is `live like Taliban or die`.

Afghanistan experience should have opened the eyes next door by abandoning MMA. How can any woman vote for MMA preaching Taliban style government? What did Pakistan get by following Islam more and more. We got more and more population, more and more drug and Kalashnikov culture, more and more madrassah and jihadi culture, more sectarian violence. All this in exchange for place in heaven on judgement day, perhaps.

Muslims can not be oscillating between five blind ulemas (one dead, one in prison and three alive in Gaza, Indonesia and Algeria. Add noe more one-eyed jack Mulla Omar to make them six) and five liberation theologians (two dead, one near death and two living in the comfort of the west). Learn from the world experience and not just Islamic experience just as most knowledge is learned from common wordly non-Islamic knowledge. What would be Islamic Chemistry, Physics or Biology? Same is true about Humanities, Economics and Sociology. This is the pot where the soup and meat is. Islamic theologians, liberation or orthodox are stirring empty pots. No matter how Quran is interpretted, it would have no bearing on the outcome of Muslims unless they adopt the well researched and realtime tested non-Muslim modelities.

harimau #53 The Sultans of Delhi may have been inequitable to hindus, as you say. But then, history is full of man`s injustice (and indeed cruelty) to man (and women and children). Should one then repeat history, inflicting injustice or cruelty when we get the opportunity? Gandhi said (I think) that if we took an eye for an eye, the whole world would be blind. And as Jesus said, let he who is innocent cast the first stone.
As mankind progresses further and further away from its animal past, the wisdom behind such views becomes increasingly apparent. As for the Sultans of Delhi, if they were unjust to hindus perhaps one of my ancestors was among those hindus too!! The point is: you cant move in the direction of the future while trying to steer based on the road you see in the rear view mirror.
On the two nation theory: I think the experience of Pakistan in mixing religion with politics is an argument AGAINST, NOT FOR, the separation of religion from politics. Pakistan has lost econmic ground and become politically unstable as a result of this mixing of politics and religion. Why would India not pay the same (and indeed heavier cost, given the much greater population diversity) cost if it were to move away from secularism?? I think India is better off seeing where the progressive nations of the world are headed today, rather than trying to do what these nations have been steadily moving away from over the past few centures.

Feroz and Sameer,

While I would hazard that neither of you two would completely agree with each other, there are a few principles in your posts that are speak of a more open and reformed Islam:
1. Broader, more progressive and private definitions of Muslim identity.
2. Interdependence with other religious and secular systems in its scholarly, scientific and spiritual disciplines.
3. An emphasis on tolerance and coexistance
4. Separation of religious and political movement
5. An non religious and systematic response to poverty, illiteracy, pop. control, civil anarchy.

How could one bring about these reforms in Pakistan?

Sameer,

This is genuine curiosity: why are you so interested in the affairs of Muslims (let nature and survival of the fittest seive through those that are worthy of surviving - whilst the chhaan bura remain back) when you have chosen to leave that fold completely.

The reason why I say this is because most people who leave whatever faith or system of belief are usually `lazy` or have a `don`t give a $hit` attitude towards their previous faith. You are not exhibiting that behaviour and I`m just interested to know why.

Thanks
Umer M

#55 by ferozk
//... I do not hate Islam, though it is so easy to silence me by saying that.....Islam suggests that knowledge must be gained at all costs and how can knowledge be gained without asking questions//

Hey Feroz ! relax man - I am on your side. Boy! you TOTALY MISUNDERSTOOD my post #41. Blame it on my lack of writing proficiency. I was just being sarcastic in first part of my post #41.

I am not a mullah. I am actually a Kufr. I myself have been branded as Islam-hater, by closet-mullahs crawling here in chowk, for raising questions related to Islam. I suspected that`s mainly because I am Kufr. So, I was quoting you to show how liberal muslims like yourself also taking a similar stand. I was making the point that questioning Islam is NOT same as hating Islam.

I know - as far as Mullahs and closet-mullahs are concerned - liberal muslims like yourself are as bad as Kufrs like me - probably worse. That`s why - in this great debate for rescuing the soul of Islam from clutches of mullahs and jihadis, I have thrown my lot on your side.

I agree with you 100% - that we reserve the right to question everybody, everything under the sun : Gods, sons of gods, prophets of gods, god-men, holy books, korans, bibles, geetas, everything. That does NOT make us hate-mongers. Ranting and raving apologists crawling here in chowk cannot suppress our rights to speak out.

++++

//...I have been called a kufr by my wife in an open court, because my mother was born to Parsi parents and my deceased father was called a Hindu...because we, as a family, do not wear our religion, Islam, on our sleeves//

I understand your pain. The rot in Islamic societies has gone deeper than many realize.

Ferozk 55

``I do not hate Islam, though it is so easy to silence me by saying that and having me killed. ``

It is sad, very very sad.

Even a professional pakibasher has a code of conduct, I will never again lump you with the ilks of tahmed.

Wish you the best

regards

Jayaprakash.

Umer Murtaza: I have said many times that Islam`s crisis or fall does not matter to me but Muslims are people including all of my family members and most friends and Pakistan and Panjab. I am concerned for them and wish them best.

Saminashah: I agree with your post. The first step is separation of religion from community and collective affairs like development, social justice, politics, education etc. That is what I meant by reducing enthusiasm for spiritual diffusing into practical to the extent of becoming sole determining factor - call it a clogged filter or a clogged sieve.

The diffrence between FerozK and moe is that he questions Islam whereas I challenge it on comparative basis with the collective knowledge and wisdom from anywhere and everywhere. I also refuse to accept revelations and cognitions at par or above knowledge and wisdom.

I also do not consider solitary contemplations, meditations in caves or under tree or top of Mount Sinai or hanging in the well upside down for three days or holding breath for 15 minutes underwater or standing forty days on one foot in the icy waters somewhere in the foothill of Himalaya as superior service to humanity than a person who is directly contributing to humanity by working and doing rational things for normal living and those whose work has contributed towards uplifting living conditions.

Ferozk #55

Now that mohar11 has clarified.

``In finality, I will be judged by Allah and it is His verdict, on my status as a Muslim, which is final and binding and not your personal opinions about the virtues of who is a Muslim and to decide what they should think!``

Ferozk, you should read(or watch) the play by Arthur Miller, the Crucible about the Salem witch hunts which he was inspired to write during the McCarthy period. Its eerie to see playing out in an unconnected time and situation exactly the same situation that we (on the subcontinent) have become very familiar with these days, namely hypocrites wielding the moral authority of religion to denounce and punish others, a moral authority which was never theirs in the first place.

Feroze asks:

````How can we better ourselves, when we assume that we are prefect from birth and there is nothing for us to improve upon? Is that not arrogance? ````

Yes Feroz -- we the Muslim have a perfect Religion -- a perfect Prophet --a perfect Book -- and a Perfect God -- perfectly unchangng and perfectly immutable for --ALL TIMES TO COME -- Eternity -- Infinity

And believe me it`s NOT -- pure arrogance -- it `s Pure Pyote

...here we go again...this has all been said before on chowk, by all of you in fact...don`t you all get bored?...

cnn reports latest violence in karachi:

8 shites killed by sunni extremists(ofcourse, it is not pogrom(it is called
sectarism as per praful bidwai, uncle mushy...)) if muslims kill fellow muslims, then god help other non-muslims.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/asiapcf/south/02/22/pakistan.mosque.ap/index.html

ferozk,

#55

Outstanding post!

When I read posts re Islam as interpreted by you, tahmed et all, your religion impresses me to no end. I`m glad at the way you addressed mohar---your self identity, self esteem is the product of the teachings of your parents, teachers, ``church/mosque`` etc etc. In other words your/our superegos shape our ``ego``. DOESNT MATTER what ``other people`` think of you!-be that person a ``true`` muslim or a bigotted idol worshipping kafir.

{{Mohar11, who died and made you my judge, jury and excutioner?}}

I havent read mohar`s ``accusations`` ...but it doesnt matter...in my life`s experience, the people who are the LEAST qualified to judge others, tend to do a heck of a lot of judging...& very LOUDLY, at that! You are too polite; I would have said ``Who fu*king died & made you God?!`` :))

So when a hindu bigot like harimou or a muslim bigot like Waqarali mian (btw, has he dissappeared, again?) dislike me cos of who they think I am; I take great pride in telling myself ``Jeeze, if these buttheads turn out to be right & their souls go to ``Heaven``, I`ll GLADLY burn in ``Hell`` in everlasting damnation``!!... I mean, I`ll GLADLY go there hopping & skipping, barefooted, over burning coals, with an idol of penis god tucked under my left armpit & chomping at a cholesterol laden big Mac in my right hand. BTW, I`ve heard there`s an ``all-you-can-eat`` free buffet ...all the Chinese food & dal bhaji you can stuff in your inflamed red-hot stomach...EVERYDAY! in Hell.

One more thing, please tell hamidm that the beer in Hell is boiling hot & sipped like chai ...& fois gras can only be slathered on a piece of idli before its consumed. Cant help it, Hell is for invited guests ONLY! No cynical Islamists looking for free drinks allowed!

Ferozek

``In finality, I will be judged by Allah and it is His verdict, on my status as a Muslim, which is final and binding and not your personal opinions about the virtues of who is a Muslim and to decide what they should think!``

My friend, your words are comming straight from the heart. More power to you. May the spirit of curiosity and a healthy sceptism triumph over the dead dogma...

re: shrinker

...dude, can your rambling already...

>Take Romair himself. Presumably, he rates himself as educated, as solution rather than problem.

What can you about the genius of a person who believes in Quran because of its `scientific knowledge?`

saxena,

wassa matter peabrain?...felt left out that I didnt insult you?

since youre reading this message, let me ask you something...a nagging thought that even kept intruding my mind while I was swimming among sharks in the Carribean---

PROMISE me you are not really f*cking with my mind; posing as a ``waqaralisheikh``...he comes & goes like one of your wet dreams...We DO know you are nerdy enough with computers to upload fake photos on Chowk...& a weasel like you is not beyond coming up with an off-the-wall biodata like a fictitiuos ``waqar`` from a madrassah...JUST to awaken latent fantasies you & I had when we were teenagers about..er...ahem ..``proper harem etiquette``...

Dunno why, but when he said things like YOU CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH!!..he reminded me of a certain jingoistic 20 something butthole that I love to hate on Chowk...

Chowk Staff,
I`m reeeaaally reeeaaallly upset that articles are zipping by at such a rush..rush rate...
cant even have a decent intra-hindu khunnas-ka grudge fight...

ferozk #55 After reading praise of your post to mohar11 from shankar, I went back and read your post. It is indeed a great rejoinder to mohar11 with whom I have had a couple of interactions, and as a result have concluded that I have here a man who is unwilling to accept my right to be (1) a muslim, (2) to be comfortable with being a muslim, and (3) to be comfortable with other people being whatever faith (or lack thereof) to which they belong.
Like brother Jay and some other characters on chowk, mohar11 will permit me any two choices, but not all three. ;-)

#71 by tahmed32
//.... It is indeed a great rejoinder to mohar11 ,....//

You wish. read my post #58.

#71 by tahmed32
//...I have here a man who is unwilling to accept my right to be (1) a muslim, (2) to be comfortable with being a muslim, ...//

Paranoia gets Ahmed Mian!

Get a grip on yourself man - nobody is out there to get you! You can be whatever you want to be, nobody cares enough about you to deny you anything.

But then this so typical of closet-mullahs. As soon as they sniff somebody trying to blow their cover - they start crying wolf, start beating their chests how muslims are under fire, Islam is in danger, how the whole world is waging war against muslims.

Ref sameerJB #62

[I also do not consider solitary contemplations, meditations in caves or under tree or top of Mount Sinai or hanging in the well upside down for three days or holding breath for 15 minutes underwater or standing forty days on one foot in the icy waters somewhere in the foothill of Himalaya as superior service to humanity than a person who is directly contributing to humanity by working and doing rational things for normal living and those whose work has contributed towards uplifting living conditions.]

On the other hand, when a yogi who has spent years meditating in a cave in the Himalayas demonstrates to a Harvard medical team his ability to control his autonomic nervous system at will -- which directly contradicts everything the scientific world knows, or when a Buddhist lama spends a winter night outside in the snow in McLeodganj and demonstrates that he can not only preserve his body heat but can actually raise his body temperature, maybe, just maybe, the scientific world can learn a little bit more about the human body from these people who have not worked towards uplifting the living conditions of other human beings.

By the way, those examples are not made up; they are factual.

PS. Don`t ask the Shrink about it. Dr. Dickshit is a practitioner of voodoo. He wouldn`t have a clue what I am talking about. Nor can he read medical journals.

Although it is obvious that our RELIGION has an ALL Knowledgeable God -- an All knowledgeable Prophet -- and an all knowledgeable BOOK -

-- where for the true seekers with nothing else to do -- answers to all questions -- of past, present and future matters -- are buried -- begging to be discovered -- in our EASTERN ISLAM --

in the WEST -- unfortunately we don’t have the time, the energy or the insight -- and the means to dig up prescriptions from Quran -- as to how to make Daisy cutters -- Pentiums and the Antibiotics -- for those we already have labs and lab scientists.

it is clear from the avalanche of SELF-CRTICISM by Western Muslims intellectuals -- that there is a dire NEED to REFORM Islam - for the Muslims and their current progeny -- who have chosen WEST instead of EAST for their future generations.

It is becoming clear that if we have to live in the West as Muslims -- we HAVE to REFORM ISLAM somehow or others --

God of Western Muslims has to REPAIR some of HIS 1400 year old FIVE pillars of Islam -- and add some NEW PILLARS -- for the stability of that ever burgeoning structure of Islam -- if