Goats, Terrorists, and the People Who Love Them

I think there are three issues involved here:

- The concept of eating meat
- The hygenic conditions under which sacrifices are made on Eid
- The correctness/incorrectness of the tradition of sacrificing on Eid

If a person eats hamburgers than he/she cannot complailn abou the concept of killing animals for meat. It would be quite hypocritical to do so.

This would leave his/her only issue to be the lack of hygenic situations under which sacrifices are done. In this case, he/she would be alright with the sacrifice, as long as it was done in US-type clean slaughterhouses. Such a person, cannot blame Islam for this tradition. They can only blame the government of the time.

The third group - a group into which I am slowly moving - questions the whole tradition of this sacrifice. Not becasue I don`t eat meat. Infact I eat quite a lot, and thus have no issue with animals being killed to feed us. The issue is slaughtering so many at the same time, and then passing out meat to the poor. I am not quite sure the amount of money that must be spent in Pakistan on this. But it must be hundreds of millions of ruppees. This means hundreds of millions of ruppees of prime meat is given to the poor. That seems like a good thing to do. But I feel it would be better to donate the money, in the form of charity, books, schools etc. to the poor. That could be utilized in a much better fashion by the poor.

As for the sacrifice part, I think on Eid, everyone should go to their local grocer and buy some lamb chops, worth the amount that a goat would have cost. If they really want to donate meat to the poor (and not books etc.), then they should buy lamb chops for the poor also.

sattar2 #49 I think we have already agreed to disagree on the question of whether muhammed was the final prophet. I believe he was, you believe he was not. Let us leave it at this. I have no desire to change your belief, and I think you will respect my right to my belief.
You say we need a prophet to guide us on religious matters, and provide the example of organic chemistry. Islam is not organic chemistry, nor rocket science. What part of ``do good deeds``, for example, dont you understand? And what part of on judgement day, ``your lips will be sealed and your hands and feet will do the talking``, and also that on judgement day ``God will ask you where are those you looked towards for guidance`` dont you understand? The fact, Sattar sahib, is that you cannot shun your individual responsibility by looking towards ordinary men to tell you these basic things.
The Quran says it is a book to make things simple. I think you should believe it when it says that.

Tahmed Sahb,

Quran never stated that divine revelations stopped with Muhammad. As I explained “seal of prophethod” means the most exalted prophet. I gave reasons to support this assertion … provided references … and pointed out arguments from Quran that support continuation of prophethood. Furthermore, I explained the context of the verse in question to support my interpretation of “khatam”. You did not bother to comment or to provide reasons for your interpretation … and merely kept restating your position.

I have come across several Arabic book titles and excerpts … where “khatam” is used to denote the high status of a person. You may ignore this … and pretend that “khatam” can only mean “last”. It would reflect narrow-mindedness on your part and failure to review and refine your understanding of Islam.

Allah has revealed Laws in the past … and sent prophets to judge and guide people according to these laws. People had common sense in the past also … but they went astray nevertheless … and Allah kept raising prophets for their guidance.

Why are prophets no longer needed for guidance? Consider a book on principles of organic chemistry. Despite having a book … and common sense … it would surely help a student to attend lectures to better understand the subject matter. Would you suggest … that since the book exists … and people now have common sense … lectures should be altogether eliminated?

Furthermore, if a professor lectures his students on principles of organic chemistry … does it make him and his students … something other than organic chemists. Obviously not! So if a prophet of Allah guides people according to teachings of Quran … does this make the prophet and his followers non-Muslims?

The reasons you are citing for interpreting “seal” to indicate “end” … are speculative and presumptuous. They lack firmness and do not appear to be well grounded. You seem to suggest that now … since man has enough common sense … he is no longer in need of divine revelation. This … is an opinion … and not an argument ... and is negated by Quran. Furthermore, you seem to see a contradiction between revelation and common sense. My understanding of Quran suggests otherwise.

Quran mentions nations of the past who were quite civilized … technologically and socially … to whom prophets were sent for guidance. Did these people not have enough common sense back then … and today … after merely a few thousand years … we have enough common sense to do away with the need of prophets? What is a few thousand years in the evolution of man … who has been in stages of development for billions of years … and will probably continue to evolve for billions of years to come?

Interestingly enough, the social ills that Quran mentions existed in these people of the past … are very much prevalent in the world even nowadays! If prophets were sent to rid societies of these evils back then … why are they no longer needed now?

Furthermore … divine revelation in no way contradicts one’s common sense. This fallacy seems to have its roots in the narrow-minded clergy’s portrayal of religious teachings … where prophets were lifted to the skies … people turned sticks into snakes … and so on. Such ideas do not have any Quranic basis … and are a product of human interpolation and imagination. Among other things, Quran emphasizes consistency of laws of nature, hints at evolution of man from pre-biotic organisms, extraterrestrial life, big-bang theory, water cycle, sub-atomic particles and more. It implores believers to exercise their intellect in order to understand mysteries of the world around them. Your comment that … in case of continuation of prophethood … “there will be no end to individuals seeking guidance in everyday life from divine revelation as opposed to common sense” … is incorrect and is very clearly contradicted by Quran.

Last time I proposed these arguments … you accused me of having no respect for science and logic. Furthermore, you accused Ahmadis of “hero-worship” of Mirza Sahib. Those were indeed immature, incorrect, and baseless statements of yours. It would help if you refrain from making such brash comments this time around.

I have given adequate reasons for my understanding … that Quran supports continuation of prophethood. While you may disagree … you certainly cannot rightfully, intelligently accuse me of “twisting” Quran and deriving guidance from some source other than one endorsed by Quran … and declaring me a non-Muslim on such grounds. Such brash verdicts put you in the same category as the conceited, narrow-minded mullahs … and will eventually shortchange you … more than others.

Asad

harimau #42 I think you missed the point of my post.

#
46

M SOUZA

Northern India is the widest part of Peninsula.Tripura to Amritsar is thousands of miles & millions of Hindus in diffeent shades along the Ganga to Brahmaputra .You as christian never seen Durga Puja with hacking of Buffaloes or in Kali Temple of Kalihghat Calcutta goat hacking .But what that has to do with inhumanity of any religion.If a religion allows you to eat meat it allows you to hunt it or kil it .Besides what is so goody goody about vegeterians when they eat a plant that cant fend itself by even running ??

harimau

So you have come across similar scenes in India as you say. I was born and brought up in North India so I have never been aware that there are exactly similar sacrifices taking palces in hinduism too because this doesn`t happen in the Northern part or maybe not even in any other part of India. But if it happens (to what ever lesser scale) then even that is no good in these modern times.

I would however say that the difference is:

1. Only a very small part of a `particular sect` of Hindu community may still following the practices of sacrifice etc.

2. So, it doesn`t apply to the whole Hindu community or the all of India. For this reason, I never came across such atrocious sites as blood flowing on the roads or kids rejoicing the sight of bakara hanging from the tree or butchers running around with blood-stained clothes.

3. I am sure the scale and magnitude of sacrifice by these few Hindus would definitely be much lesser compared to the enormous feasting and celebrations of Bakr-Eid by the whole country (Pakistan in this case). You can compare Eid celebrations of Pakistan with Diwali or Holi of India but not these few silly sacrifices made in some remote part with the nationwide rejoicing of bakr-eid.


2. Again, this practice (if at all still prevailing in some particular Hindu community) is being abandoned slowly as pointed out by hari. It definitely should be.

So, no point comparing the two. They are nowhere similar.
Anyway, if Muslims do like Bakr-eid and truely think that this is a festival of supreme sacrifice, something sacred, then let it be. CArry on. We all have a right to believe in what ever we want to.

I can certainly relate to this scenario.

Some of us love the barbeque after the slaughter but find it

difficult to stomach some of the events of the day.


Ras

#37 harimau

Re Kali Temple:

I used to go every friday in the 70s. Now when I went in 2000, they have
stopped the goat sacrifice.

What it means, a religion and the people need to grow up/mature. I was happy to see that. I hope a similar transformation in Islam happens.

#33 D Souza:

Think about it. A ``Good`` muslim would go to heaven and be granted
72 houris, wine, boys which is considered ``sin`` in this world.
So by allowing ``sinning`` in ``heaven``, then according to cause/effect, one would expect a muslim to be born back in earth(hell).

A religion needs to be dynamic and I see that lacking in Islam, which I feel is boxed in. You are not allowed outside the box. It is a ``tortured`` religion.

The only redeeming thing about Islam, is that when muhammad calls to protect trees/plants, which is eco-friendly and that is cool.

Ref tahmed32 #41

[I am defining a muslim to mean any individual for whom the source of divine messages is the Holy Quran. For Ahmedis, there is more than one source of divine messages: namely the Quran AND ``wahi`` as conveyed through Mirza. It is for this reason that I think Ahmedis form a different religion than those who focus on the teachings of the Quran only.]

Are Mormons Christian? If so, why aren`t Ahmadis Muslims?

[Third, most important, I think we should place the entire issue in perspective: the Quran recognizes that there are different sources of divine revelation. ....HOWEVER, the Quran does say that divine messages stopped with Muhammed (the famous ``seal of prophethood`` phrase that you and I have discussed and agreed to disagree on in the past). The issue then becomes: does the Quran consider this ``seal of prophethood`` to be an issue of substance or one of detail.
I happen to think it is an issue of substance for the following reason: unless a seal is put on prophethood, there will be no end to individuals seeking guidance in everyday life from ``divine revelation`` as opposed to common sense. This is exactly what has gone wrong in Islam: individuals ignore common sense and ignore the simple message of the Quran (which is about values and knowing what is right and wrong, first and foremost) and look towards mullahs and aalims and suchlikes for guidance.}

Isn`t it precisely those who believe in the finality of Prophet Muhammad who are calling themselves mullahs and aalims and provide guidance? That being the case, one would think that a new prophet is precisely what Islam needs for reformation, particularly when any attempt at modernizing Islam is thwarted by the mullahs as blasphemy.

Bina,

Nice to see that you have grown up on chowk. Your posts are no more, feudals are bad, mushy is corrupt etc., it is rather expose on the reality of pakistan, not the generalisations, but the basic elements that corrupts the society.

The desensitisation of blood and killing sis in tune with pak school books about the superiorutt of pakistanis and islam, and is consistant with the jihadic message. When the indian p[atrol in the kargill were captured and mutilated by the jihadists, many wondered about the pak mind set, now it all makes sense. I remeber urstruly, islam is a code conduct for all aspects of life. You articale talks of the early training, for the children, from the most importanr festivity of islam in pakistan.

I have lived amongst the muslims all through my young days, we have never heard of the goat sacrifice by the muslims. Pakistan isa true islamic country, there are times when one has to thank jinnah for making the darwenian choice available to the indian muslims.

sattar2 #36 Let me try to explain where I am coming from.
First, all religions (a) share a common essence (i.e. belief that there is more to things than what we see in everyday life, and this generally includes a common Creator) and certain universal values, and (b) vary in the details, most notably in terms of their source of divine message.
Second, I am defining a muslim to mean any individual for whom the source of divine messages is the Holy Quran. For Ahmedis, there is more than one source of divine messages: namely the Quran AND ``wahi`` as conveyed through Mirza. It is for this reason that I think Ahmedis form a different religion than those who focus on the teachings of the Quran only.
Third, most important, I think we should place the entire issue in perspective: the Quran recognizes that there are different sources of divine revelation. The Quran considers them to be no different in substance, and that in any case we should not try to judge between them.
HOWEVER, the Quran does say that divine messages stopped with Muhammed (the famous ``seal of prophethood`` phrase that you and I have discussed and agreed to disagree on in the past). The issue then becomes: does the Quran consider this ``seal of prophethood`` to be an issue of substance or one of detail.
I happen to think it is an issue of substance for the following reason: unless a seal is put on prophethood, there will be no end to individuals seeking guidance in everyday life from ``divine revelation`` as opposed to common sense. This is exactly what has gone wrong in Islam: individuals ignore common sense and ignore the simple message of the Quran (which is about values and knowing what is right and wrong, first and foremost) and look towards mullahs and aalims and suchlikes for guidance.
At least this is my point of view, and you may agree or disagree as you wish, and I wish you all the best in either case.

Ref m_souza #26

[The scenes of blood all around with dead animals hannging from the trees..I can`t even imagine such scenes..at least not in India. I wonder what do Indian muslims have to say abt it?? Can any Indian muslim answer me how much of blood-bath they have on Bakr-eid...becasue I don`t remember having seen anything so horrific in India.]

Let me go back to my childhood in deepest Tamil Nadu. On one of the festival days at the famous Murugan temple in Tiruchendur, I remember seeing truckloads of dead goats being hauled back from that place to various nearby towns and cities. Never saw that on any other day but just once every year. The Sangilikkaruppans and Sudalaikkannus of Tamil Nadu continue their bloodbaths of goats and chickens at the shrines to Mariamman. Only nowadays at Samayapuram near Trichy, where the Rationalists of Tamil Nadu worship small-pox as Goddess Kali (this can be rationalized under the Rationalist Belief System because they are worshipping Nature in the form of small-pox; I expect that Doctor Artist Leader does not allow his grandchildren to be immunized against polio because polio is also Nature and ought to be worshipped) you go to the counter and pay up x rupees for a goat or y rupess for a chicken and the actual slaughter itself doesn`t take place but the vows of the devotees to sacrifice an animal are considered fulfilled. As it is Samayapuram stinks to high heavens and the last thing it needs is the fly-blown carcasses of dead goats adding to the stink and spreading some other disease like cholera for which the Maasanamuthus of Tamil Nadu will erect another temple and offer sacrifices, which will cause more diseases for which there will be more temples.... ad infinitum.

I also have seen goats being sacrificed at the Kali temple in Calcutta. I don`t think I visited that temple more than once.

Never generalize about India from your personal experience. We have all sorts of weirdness running rampant there.

Ref m_souza # 33

[I really thank God I am a Hindu and thank God my ancestors did not convert (like many other hindus did in the subcontinental history). .....

(But I do secretly believe I will go to heaven as I have not harmed anyone, not taken any creatures life)]

Just because you are a vegetarian doesn`t mean all Hindus are. I am sure vegetarians by choice are probably no more than one-third of Hindus. Quite a few more might not be able to afford meat except a few times a month and forced into vegetarian habits due to economic circumstances.

Tahmed sahib thinks everything that others write is dumb while he is the smart one. Fact is ...he hasn`t got a heart to read anything that goes against his community. Truth hurts him

I don`t believe in hell or heaven anyway. My comments are to instigate you guys.

Tahmed Sahib,

You do not have the heart to discuss whether Ahmadis are Muslims or not … but continue to make malicious, incorrect statements against their understanding of Islam.

At times you have accused Ahmadi-Muslims of hero-worship of Mirza Sahib and twisting the meaning of Quran. When asked to explain, you told a few ill-timed jokes … and shied away from providing basis for your claims. All this … while claiming to be a respectful, rational individual … with a disclaimer of “no disrespect towards Ahmadis”.

Such behavior is rather low and demeaning … and not the mark of a civilized person.

You emphasize the Islamic message of civility and respect towards others … but then go on to declare others non-Muslims over differences in interpretation. I follow Quran according to my understanding. For this, Allah calls me a Muslim, while you insist on declaring me a non-Muslim. Your position reeks of egoistical pride and arrogance.

Take a dose of humility Sahib … and stop worrying about the treatment of Ahmadis at the hands of other Muslims. Allah is our Protector and Guardian … and we’ll be alright. However, do realize that there is no need for us to kick each other out of the circumference of Islam. This religion may be shared respectfully between dissenting individuals … without the absurdity of “fatwas of kuffr”.

Asad