Goats, Terrorists, and the People Who Love Them

sattar #31 Given the criminal manner in which Ahmedis have been treated by religious extremists, and the shameful manner in which the government has condoned this behavior, the issue of whether Ahmedis are muslims or not is one that I do not have the heart to discuss. I have as much respect for Ahmedism as I have for all other religions. I am not saying that you will be denied admission in heaven And indeed many Ahmedi people I know are first rate individuals, and I sincerely respect them as such, while many of their worst critics who happen to be sunni muslims like me are among the worst kind of individuals I know.
You and I have discussed this matter earlier, and I think we can agree to disagree. With no disrespect meant.

m_souza #33 you wont be denied admission to heaven on account of being a hindu. You will be denied admission, nevertheless, on account of writing really dumb posts on chowk. They wont take you in hell either. You are doomed to forever be in limbo, forced to read you chowk posts over and over and over for all eternity...

I really thank God I am a Hindu and thank God my ancestors did not convert (like many other hindus did in the subcontinental history). At least it is not compulsory for me to kill anyone year after year.I prefer to be called a coward than be a butcher or a `haiwaan`..scaring innocent animals.

I could never bear the sight of so much blood...so much pain to other
creatures in the name of religion. I can never believe in this `belief` that God would be pleased if we mercilessly slaughter His creations. Some people might believe I won`t go to heaven if I am not a muslim. But I prefer hell after my death than to live in a perpetual hell while I am alive.

(But I do secretly believe I will go to heaven as I have not harmed anyone, not taken any creatures life)

very upsetting ...
I dont know what to think of the article. The logical me wants to denounce the tradition..but the muslim me.. can`t bear that thought..

Tahmed Sahib (#28):

You are incorrect in declaring Ahmadis as non-Muslims … and stating that Ahmadis supersede Quran with the teachings of their prophet.

Ahmadis believe Quran to be the final, complete Law from Allah. They further believe that Allah will continue to raise prophets to guide people according to this Law.

As Quran explains, Allah has sent prophets in the past to judge and guide people according to the then-existing divine laws. Nowhere does the Quran suggest a change in this practice of the Almighty. Instead, the eternal commandments of the Holy Quran admonish the believers to accept messengers of Allah as they appear.

Your claims against Ahmadis are incorrect and are indicative of narrow mindedness. One must be careful in making such regarding the faith of others.

As an Ahmadi-Muslim I fully believe in Quran, where Allah Almighty Himself has given the name of ``Islam`` to my faith. You are not in a position to overrule the word of Allah. This matter rests between me and the Almighty.

Asad

With all due respect to the vegetarians here, human brains evolved to their present state because of our appetite for meat. If our forefathers had been looking for Lysine and protein from other sources, we`d still be running around on all fours.

Whether we need to continue to devour all that meat in all its present day intensity is another question.

later
-sac

#23 by ahmadzai on February 14, 2003 0:38am PT

[I am against terrorism in all forms and shapes be it by terrorists like Al Qaeda or its affiliates or by the states like India and Israel. In the absence of neutral observers and international media in Kashmir, killing of Kashmiris can be blamed on the Indian Government itself. Your government is under the burden of proving it otherwise. Expecting your response of what Mr. Blackwill/Ms. Powell has said, please read my other posts.]

Well, I’m sure you’d like to believe otherwise when your own country supports dubious organizations of every color, and then uses deniability as a tool to get out of trouble. And as the anti-status quo power, we know your country would do everything within its means to internationalize the Kashmir issue. What better way than to create mischief in Kashmir, and then shout hoarse about the need to have international observers posted in Srinagar? Good luck to you. Now I’m also sure you, like other Pakistanis would surely call Ms. Nancy Powell’s statements an Indian conspiracy. Go ahead. That doesn’t change anything on the ground. The statement is proof enough of the fact that the US considers Pakistan’s support to terrorism in Kashmir remains unchanged.

[Please read my other messages where I have stated that Pakistan`s army snatched 1/3rd of our Kashmir from your occupation forces in 1949, successfully defended Pakistan against Indian onslaught in 1965 (and I would refer you to read the analysis of 1965 war published in Indian newspapers, written by Indian analysts themselves, which called it a great Indian fiasco), and lead a campaign alongside Americans in Afghanistan that eventually brought Iron Curtain down.]

If you haven’t ready my post in response to your claims above, let me repeat it again:

When your Army (so you were lying all these days that it was the tribals who did it) attacked Jammu & Kashmir, it had not acceeded to India. Regarding the newspaper article you’re talking about, you’ll have to produce the source, or take your claim back. As for bringing the iron curtain down, you must see the mess it has created for Pakistan out of which it has yet to come out. And if it were to break up (and it looks very likely), this “success” will be the very reason for that.

Bina

A nice article straight from your sensitive heart. Shows you to be a good human being.

The scenes of blood all around with dead animals hannging from the trees..I can`t even imagine such scenes..at least not in India. I wonder what do Indian muslims have to say abt it?? Can any Indian muslim answer me how much of blood-bath they have on Bakr-eid...becasue I don`t remember having seen anything so horrific in India.

I being a vegetarian, have always wondered how can people kill innocent animals and then rejoice over it.
If some people think they are being brave by such slaughtering then they are wrong. Bravery is...when one fights a two sided war with an equally prepared opponent and then wins the war. That is a true test of ones prowess and bravery.

PS: Bina...You don`t like killings..Maybe you do have Hindu ancestors and a touchy hindu blood in your veins...check it..

As I read your article, there is a sense of deja vu.
Like, I m sure, many more readers would have had too.
There is a tear in my eye for these innocent beasts. Need I say more?
I ve written my views on this senseless act in chowk unplugged : ``The role for goats on Bakrid``.
To be frank, this act makes me ashamed to be a muslim.

Asok #19 I realize that as a nonmuslim you may be unfamiliar with the significance of the Quran in Islam, and as such the questioning of ``Islamic`` (or rather pseudo-Islamic) TRADITIONS may seem tantamount to a rejection of Islam. However, the opposite is true. The Quran - through its simple, straightforward, message of peace, mercy, kindness, learning and individual responsibility - is in fact the essence of Islam. And many ``Islamic`` traditions, like this mindless slaughter of animals, are rooted in primitive societies and indeed violate the spirit of the Quranic message. Rejection of primitive and/or cruel behavior and use of common sense is perfectly within the rights (and indeed the duty) of all muslims, and indeed of all individuals regardless of religion.
The Ahmedis, on the other hand, totally twist the meaning of the Quran and open up ground for superseding the Quran with the words of new prophets, and as such it is technically correct to consider them a different religion since they do not see the Quran as the final source of divine messages.

Common features in all religions:

Sacrifice
Prayer
Pilgrimage
Fasting
Holy Offering
Holy Day
Rosary
Incence
Candles

In response to harish_hyd at # 21

``1. Your Taliban brethren executing burglars and thieves in the stadiums of Kabul and Kandahar amidst thousands of cheering onlookers. For your information, what the Northern Alliance did to Pushtuns was not nearly half as cruel as what your Taliban brethren did to Pushtuns themselves.``

You are needlessly getting emotional. Kindly look at my posts. I would like to thank you on endorsing my anti-Taliban messages. However, I was expecting more - why did not you criticise MMA?

``2. Fundamentalist rogues slitting the throat of Daniel Pearl on camera. Now what would you call that Mr. Ahmadzai, the resident representative of the Taliban? ``

Thank you again for supporting my viewpoint against terrorists, but you made a small error. You need to read my posts.

``3. Your Lashkar-e-Tayiba ``freedom fighters`` butchering innocent Kashmiris, and storming temples in India killing civilians indiscriminately. I guess that`s what ``Jihad`` means to you and your holy Muslim warrior friends. Sure, you`ll certainly your passport to heaven, not to talk of the 72 houris. ``

Again, you are getting too angry, which shows your weak footing. I am against terrorism in all forms and shapes be it by terrorists like Al Qaeda or its affiliates or by the states like India and Israel. In the absence of neutral observers and international media in Kashmir, killing of Kashmiris can be blamed on the Indian Government itself. Your government is under the burden of proving it otherwise. Expecting your response of what Mr. Blackwill/Ms. Powell has said, please read my other posts.

``4. Your brave Army (actually, I’d like to call it the only Army in the world that has never won a war), raping women and slaughtering thousands of Bangladeshis.``

Again you anger is getting the better of some truths in your message. Please read my other messages where I have stated that Pakistan`s army snatched 1/3rd of our Kashmir from your occupation forces in 1949, successfully defended Pakistan against Indian onslaught in 1965 (and I would refer you to read the analysis of 1965 war published in Indian newspapers, written by Indian analysts themselves, which called it a great Indian fiasco), and lead a campaign alongside Americans in Afghanistan that eventually brought Iron Curtain down.

Anyways, thank you very much for supporting my anti-Taliban stance. I will remain eternally indebted to you for this.

Harish-hyd at # 20 wrote:

``Here`s something from the Friday Times that Ahmadzai, our resident Mullah would enjoy reading: CHURCH OF THE POISON MIND
MOHAMMAD SHEHZAD
SCHOOLBOOKS THAT TEACH CHILDREN TO HATE``

At the cost of repetition that you are needlessly getting over-sentimental, I would refer you to my message in Attack on Iraq: Just Do It! published 0n friday 13, 2003 in response to arjun_m at # 7 who had cut and pasted the same message as you did.

In response to various questions by harimau:

``I am afraid I spoke too soon.``

No. You took your sweet time.

``Of course it is an atrocity only when Muslims are killed. Shias, Ismailis, Khojas, Ahmadis, etc., do not count as Muslims.``

No. Wrong again. They too are Muslims. If some extremist groups started their campaign against non-Sunni Muslims, they had no backing of general masses. These were targeted killings by few terrorists. No mobs were ever involved.

When Tartars destroyed the Muslim Sultanates of Khwarism (under Ganges Khan) and ultimately the Caliphate (under Halakoo Khan), they killed thousands of Muslims regardless of their sects. Historians tell us that Sunnis and Shias of combative ages were all beheaded and pyramids of their scalps were put in place as a symbol to terrorise others Muslims. Ganges Khans killings had started with the massacre of Sunni forces of 70,000 (of Turkic origin) in areas that now constitute northern Iran, when they thought that the Tartars were too many in numbers and thought that because of their Turkic origins would be spared their lives if they surrender. This they did against the advice of 60,000 Shia soldiers of Persian origin with them defending the fort. Because of the poor decision of Sunni Muslims all 130,000 were slain, as 60,000 Shia soldiers were not enough a force to win the battle.

``Mr. Ahmadzai, let me ask a question on Islamic theology here. You or any of our resident mullahs can choose to answer it. If jihad is the struggle of Muslims against oppression and injustice, why is it that not a single Muslim individual, organization or nation-state ever called the struggle of Bangladesh for independence a jihad? ``

You avoided being thrown out of the game (3 straight Nos) by asking a very good question. My answer is, and others have the right to differ, that call for Jihad (which can be military, education, poverty alleviation, economic development, etc.) can only be given by the state. The BD Government never called it a Jihad. They called it a freedom struggle. They were correct.

``Or, when the same Pakhtoons took over Mazar-e-Sharif and mercilessly killed the Shias. Or when the Indonesians killed the East Timorese. Or when the Pakistanis killed the Bangladeshis. Or the Partition riots of 1947. It is all a question of whose ox is being gored. ``

Agreed.

``Or what the Taliban did to the Afghan women. ``

The Afghan women organization RAWA blamed NA of more atrocities on Afghan women than the fanatic rogues, the Talibans. Even Zain Vergee of CNN got embarrassed while interviewing a RAWA leader, who castigated NA in general and Ahmad Shah Masood`s party in particular like anything on cruelty to Afghan women. Zain had tried to get an endorsement of what an NA leader had said earlier that ``Ahmad Shah Masood was George Washington, Abraham Lincoln and Roosevelt to Afghans all in one``.

``Mr. Ahmadzai, please answer one question: do you believe women should never leave their homes unless acoompanied by a male relative?``

No. I don`t believe that. Almost all Muslims don`t believe that. Some extremist Muslims may like it that way, but in terms of governmental regulations, nowhere in the world this is a requirement, except for Saudi Arabia. Even in the conservative NWFP of Pakistan, women are required to wear veils, but are not expected to be accompanied by males, except for protection against harassment or family feuds. If the current MMA government in the NWFP makes it a government injunction then it would be good. This would earn them lot of resentment and it will be easier to throw them out by liberal parties.

However, I would once again say that it would depend upon the situation. If my wife/sisters/mother are to go and see places in Southern Chicago or in Harlem of New York, I will accompany my wife and other family members of the entourage. If they desire to be in Toronto, Kualalumpur, Dubai, Lahore, etc. I will gladly let them go on their own. Even in the tourist dependent districts of the conservative NWFP (Chitral, Swat, Kaghan, Abbotabad, etc.), women may go on for shopping, hikes, etc. on their own.

However, the western media, especially the American wants the world to believe the world other way round to suite its own interests. Hence the negative image.

#2, #6 by ahmadzai on February 13, 2003 1:51pm PT

With only slight changes, the same scenes are more reminiscent of:

1. Your Taliban brethren executing burglars and thieves in the stadiums of Kabul and Kandahar amidst thousands of cheering onlookers. For your information, what the Northern Alliance did to Pushtuns was not nearly half as cruel as what your Taliban brethren did to Pushtuns themselves.

2. Fundamentalist rogues slitting the throat of Daniel Pearl on camera. Now what would you call that Mr. Ahmadzai, the resident representative of the Taliban?

3. Your Lashkar-e-Tayiba ``freedom fighters`` butchering innocent Kashmiris, and storming temples in India killing civilians indiscriminately. I guess that`s what ``Jihad`` means to you and your holy Muslim warrior friends. Sure, you`ll certainly your passport to heaven, not to talk of the 72 houris.

4. Your brave Army (actually, I’d like to call it the only Army in the world that has never won a war), raping women and slaughtering thousands of Bangladeshis.

Here`s something from the Friday Times that Ahmadzai, our resident Mullah would enjoy reading:


CHURCH OF THE POISON MIND
MOHAMMAD SHEHZAD
SCHOOLBOOKS THAT TEACH CHILDREN TO HATE
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ISLAMABAD – Muslims alone have the right to rule the world and are allowed to kill infidels that stand in the way of Islam. This is the message being taught to schoolchildren through textbooks used in the network of institutions run by Jamaat ud-Daawa, according to a research report on Hate Speech complied by the Liberal Forum Pakistan.

Democracy, Freedom, and Peace in Textbooks: Campaign against Hate Speech reports that books published by the Lashkar-e-Taiba (the first incarnation of ud-Daawa) immerse young children in a culture that glorifies violence and hate. For example, the Urdu textbook employed to teach children the alphabet uses Bandooq (gun) as an example of a word that starts with the alphabet Bai, Talwar (sword) and Tank for Tai, Jahaz (fighter plane) for Jeem, Khanjar (dagger) for Khai, Rocket for Rai, and Tayyara (fighter plan again) for To-ay.

“Infidels are cowards by nature,” claims the Urdu textbook used in the second grade (for seven-year-olds). “When a holy warrior attacks them, they scream with terror and fear.” Mujahideen are glorified as the alpha male on a mission from God. They are the superheroes that kill Hindus, fashion all sorts of gadgets from found material, and make the infidel world cower in fear.

Art and music are forbidden so instead of handicrafts, children are asked to purchase plastic guns and trained to shoot at balloons. Games on the playground include playing guerrilla and ambushing infidel convoys. Poems relay stories of young boys that wage jihad. In Brave Child, ten-year-old Gul Rehman kills hundreds of Russians in Afghanistan. Probably fictitious letters from jihadis killed in battle strewn across textbooks. “If I am killed in battle celebrate,” reads a letter from one Abdul Nasir to his mother and sister which can be found in the seventh grade textbook. “Make sure you conceal your body and never wear perfume.”

India is presented as Pakistan’s sworn enemy and Saudi Arabia as its best friend. Kashmir is presented as Pakistani territory forcibly snatched by Hindus and Pakistan as a country created only for Muslims. Children are instructed to “mercilessly beat up” non-Muslims. “Every student should become a holy warrior,” the second grade textbook states. “We should all be willing to lay down our lives for the great nuclear power that is Pakistan.”

Published by the ud-Daawa press these are given to students free of charge and are not available on the market. TFT caught up with Abu Naseer, an official at the ud-Daawa Rawalpindi center who explained the books were meant to inspire.

“We aim to inculcate a truly Islamic spirit in our students,” said Mr Naseer. “We earnestly desire to enable our students to view Islam as a complete way of life rather than a mere set of rituals. So through our textbooks we introduce our students to the inspirational ideas and objectives of Islam, we introduce them to our glorious past.”